BabbarSher

Truth wrote: "Truth hurts but then at the end its truth" Context please ? If you r referring to yourself, you dont hurt me one bit..but it seems like a remark made by a Site Admin, not by a neutral moderator. You have not answered my question, yet given a cryptic response. I think all historical records...if i am not wrong were very aptly questioned by a lot of sikh scholars and intellecutals and their accuracy questioned. A lot of these historical records also contain a lot of 'non-sikhi' things which are not in line with our religion. How then can young sikhs be convinced that kesh ..requirement given in these records is requirement of sikhi? Perhaps the experts here would care to explain. How do you then proove that in sikhism the importance of Kesh as an external rehat is prime ? Rehantnamas? they dont concur on a lot of things...which do you adopt and which do you drop out? If our present Guru, Guru Granth Sahib is silent on kesh, why do we need to keep it? If Guru Granth Sahib only deals with spirtuality and matters of the inner soul, why do we need to keep an external rehat be it any of the five K's. In essence what we are highlighting is that sikhism is internal rehat nothing external about it. Anyway a lot of people on this forum refer again to young born sikhs, and bla blah blah.......as if they themselves are scholars par excellence. They have load of suggestions for others which they need to apply to themselves. I dont know what to say if the interpretation of the Shabd by Prof. Sahib Singh is taken out of context. Please remember that sikhism has a unique feature: Guru Granth Sahib , compiled by the Gurus themselves --- and hence it is a most authentic source. The rest of the Granths about sikhism were written after a long time and are suspect with respect to their accuracy and prone to adulteration much like the religious books and traditions of other religions. Niranjana: When I say that Guru Maharaj's message is Universal, The concept of Sabat Surat applies to all people...not a particular communiity. I have never said that Guru Maharaj is not referring directly to Muslims, yet the essence of the message is for all.....people. I am not referring to the AKJ interpretation of the Shabad.

There is no question of Saabat Surat as per muslim religion. It is a sikh concept.

How selfish ...Lalleshvari ..................... Least expected from ya

heres a welcome .............hIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII :-) we du like to know more abot ya

Coooooool One ....Iron ..:-)

Koi Gal nahin Mundeya......Toon Udaas kyon ho gaya hain... Cheer Up and enjoy :-) Chardi Kala ch panth Khalsa ..dheri kade we dhave na.....

well...just my point of view.... we always say....Meri Khushi Ohna di Khushi ....but never say ...Uhna Di Khushi ...meri Khushi... Start Living for others... and theres absolutely no replacement for parents. On the other hand.... caste shouldnt be the selection or the rejection criteria !

ooops ....grammatical mistake again.....its feel free....not fell free. sholly..

Hi ya all.... Late as always this is BabbarSher...alias..dhariwalhs I am 27 ....went 28 yesterday. Booo Hoo I am getting .......so Buddha... Belong to Punjab, work in software, am an engg. MBA, a bachelor and a very pompous old fool ....as you can see from the intro ;-)' I am very lazy, hate to type, make spellingf mistakes by the load and get emotinal too quickly ;-) Anyway I simply love my religion and the Gurus and the great sikhs. Love loads of Music, listening to Keertan, telling others what to do ;-), watchin TV, doing Bhangra (just a wee lil bit), learning about Network Security and Intrusion detection, watching movies n goin to the malls...:-) Shopping is fun, if i dont spend the money ..lol Anyway if deres anything else...someone wnats to know.....fell free ...:-)

hi

"The point of making this thread is simple. Guru ji didn't use that phrase for sikhs but its directly related to muslims." But the Message of Gurbaani is Universal (Holds true for all people)....we cant separate one part from the another....... otherwise a lot of Gurbaani would be restricted to Hindus or Muslims.....

Pardon my poor spellings and grammatical mistakes...(did i write grammatical correctly ..;-) lol

Very High Funda Article .:-) Needs loads of concentration ... :-)....hmm I think you wrote but ....truly very high funda.... but i will read at a more leisurely time :-) I do agree that the question' Why do i need to keep a Kakkar ..doesnt make sense. Rather we should put the question,,,,why do I need to shave ? etc. Also the biggest reason for keeping Kakkars is cause the Gurus asked you to. thats all........we dont need to give any reasons including medical. Yes i do agree with you, that Gurbaani is more for the spirit then the body, still at some places, like above ---the physical meaning does come into plav ..and I hope you agree, as is translated by Bhai Sahib that this is a pointer towards the physical appearance as well ...right ?

Yes I definately do. In fact I consider his transaltion to be the best. I had gone through it before I made my post. Maybe I erred in communicating...but I think my post is a more or less a translation of Bhai Sahib's translation !!

Dear Veerji, We are all fools trying to learn. Also there is nothing offending about your explanation. Everyone is entitled to their point of view. I do think however that when trying to translate a Shabad, we need to go over the ENTIRE Shabad carefully and analyse it. I am below average person in understanding Gurbaani. Following are my views and I would like you to analyse them. The Shabad...we are referring to is on the following pages of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. It starts at Page 1083 and the lines we are referring to are in Page 1084. You can please visit the site www.srigranth.org for the complete shabad. Ths site has a very good search engine in Gurmukhi and u need only write word dastar (using mousle clicks on a Java based screen Gurmukhi...found on the first page). The Whole shabad (according to my understanding) is addressed to Muslims..(Muslims in Physical aspect only). The whole message is of course the same as in many other shabads and is for the universal brotherhood. Now if we look closely we find that Guru Maharaj is comparing and the physical religion followed by Muslims and advising them on the right path o sikhi. There is refernce to Mecca, Sunnat (circumcision) and a lot of other physical muslim traits. Now if we come to the lines in reference, I believe that there are some importants things that Guru Maharaj is instructing here. Gure Maharaj is saying......let your total awareness ..the complete form which i have given you..............."sabat surat".........be the turban on ur head).................... If you notice the earlier lines of the complete Shabad...you will notice that Guru Maharaj is replacing the physical attributes of the Muslims with spirtual attributes + physical practical actions of sikhi) In this line again, Guru Maharaj actually replaces the physical attributes of the Musilms ( a turban) with the Physical attribute (Hair (physical)...+ ....{sabat surat could also refer to no circumcision...but in an earlier line ...Guru Maharaj has already compared and replaced it}.......the complete awareness (spirtual) .....) Hence in my understanding (alhtough it too is a bit different from contemporary understanding)...this is a very clear pointer about maintaing the Hair....in effect the complete natural form given by God. I dont think this is a pointer towards wearing a turban. Of course when you keep a long hair, a turban is necessary to maintain the same properly.

Thanks, I wil read this in detail, but from a prelim view I could make out that there is no method specified or any endorsement of any methods. The point is not of existence of non-existence of Kundalini etc. but whether Gurbaani endorses that such pratcices be followed (like awakenning of kundalini through Yoga), or whether it says that submission to the Lord, love and singing his praises (naam simnran) will autmatically lead to such a process. The question is whether Gurbaani endorses such concepts as uteering the name of the Lord thousand times....from teh tongue...or whether trying to embibe good qualities by singing his praise. In fact one of the quotes given is: "Ravi sasi louke ihu tanu kingaree vaajai sabad niraaree: O Yogi, make this body the harp of Divine Name and the right and left nostrils, the "sun" and the "moon" channels, the strings of this body-harp; then vibrate the wondrous melody of the Shabad (Naam) within (sggs 907 ). " "Trai Sat angul vaaee audhoo sunn sach aahaao. Gurmukhi bolai tatt virolai cheenai alakh apaaro. Trai gun maitai sabad vasaae taa mann chookai ahankaaro. Antar baahai eki jaanai taa hari naam lagai piaaro. Sukhumunaa irhaa pingulaa boojhai jaa aape alakh lakhaae. Nanak tih te oopari saachaa satigur sabadi sammaae: O Yogi, Name of the True, Absolute Lord is the food or support of the exhaled breath (Praana), which extends out ten finger lengths. By becoming a Gurmukh (Spiritual Being), one churns the Divine Name and thus comes to understand the Reality, and realizes the Unseen, Infinite Being. Eradicating the three qualities of Maya from his mind, he enshrines the Shabad within, and his mind is rid of egotism. In this way, inside and out, when he knows the One Lord alone; he is said to be in love with the Divine Name. When a Gurmukh attains the Divine Understanding, then he understands the Sushumanaa, Irhaa and Pingalaa; he understand that the True being is above the practice of these three channels of energy. Through the Divine Word, the Shabad of the True Guru, one merges with Him (sggs 944)." So in effect the ways of the Yogis has been criticised not endorsed. I have not criticised meditating, rather the 'external' ways of meditation being discussed in this forum i.e. the various techniques....which I dont think hold any sway, rather they would lead to more ego. Such techniques become nothing more than rituals. In effet the posts of N30 and khalsa sum up what should be the tru practice of meditation in sikhi and endorsed by Guru Granth Sahib. "Ih man nirmal je har gun gavai: By singing Lord's glories, this mind becomes immaculate (sggs 1067). " Please note that the word used is gavai..... T Singh has written an elborate article but he is not able to quote anything in support of different 'physical' methods of doing naam simran. :-)

Frankly I have seen so many posts about the Yogic concepts .....trikuti etc. above.....that I would once again like to ask all the people who made the posts ....to please answer my question......... Comon guys shall i take names..that will make it personal.. Laleshvari...u say tha breath technique is supportedin Guru Granth Sahib....Please do quote,,,,,, Guys and gals Either support the stuff u have said ...orI think the posts should be removed ...

N 30, thats what I wanted to say. ...and i chose the indirect way to make my point. As far as my knowledge goes.....Gurbaani emphasises, Keertan. In fact it emphasis, Singing..."Gaavna"...To the best of my knowledge there is no where written about doing exercisses to open Dasam Duar, Chakras etc. or even any strengtheining of such concepts. "Gun Gaavan Nit Tere, tudh bin avar na jaana mere sahiba" and numerous other examples. Pranyam, Yoga etc. may be good for physical or mental health...but they have absoluetly no spirtual benefit in the sense of making one meet with God. At many times Guru Maharaj has written about humility and how one should fal at the feet of the Lord. All these are the belief of the Jogis, and these were rejected by Guru Maharaj. These things only lead to ego..haume.. Guru Nanak Deve Ji said: Turth is high..Higher still is truthful living.. However if still some can produce some prrofs from gurbaani in support of all the claims ..about Trikuti etc etc...made time and again...above.... please give the same on this post. Thx

To all, I have seen above that lots of methods have been given. Please can anyone please quote from Guru Granth Sahib Ji, Bhai Gurdas Ji's Baani, or Bhai Nand Lal Ji's Baani or Guru Gobind Singh Ji's baani, any indications about the method of doing simran, saas method, the chakras, the dasam duar and all the various ways and means ..........etc. Will be obliged.

I think Guru Maharaj is not himself calling anyone high or low or being sexist. He is using the prevailing viewpoint of the society of the time. If you look carefully, you will realise that Guru Maharaj is saying, this in a way such as: He is addressing the person, and telling him that since he 'the person' thinks the Butcher Women, Drummer Women etc. to be low, yet actually he should realise that it is the inner vices of the person that are low. The whole translated shabd from www.srigranth.org is as follows: "False-mindedness is the drummer-woman; cruelty is the butcheress; slander of others in one`s heart is the cleaning-woman, and deceitful anger is the outcast-woman." Now read the next lines: "What good are the ceremonial lines drawn around your kitchen, when these four are seated there with you? " This implies that Guru ji is giving a teaching to someone, of a 'higher' caste, who holds the view that Butcher women, drummer women etc. are all bad. So in effect using that persons own concept of what is low, high, good bad, Guru Maharj has reinforced the concept that the only thing that is bad or low is: 'False-understanding ' Cruelty etc. . So there is absolutely no question of sexism. I hope I was able to explain in words, what I have understood. Sorry for the delay in writing back to you.

I think that the reason is Guru Maharaj held Women in higher esteem than men. For e.g. as far as extra marital relations, the shabads which I have heard of relate and warn men not to even look at Women other than their wives. Now it is not totally true that Women of thse times did not work. For e.g. even still in Punjab ..or in pakistani unjab.u wll find .......Dhobi and Dhoban....Darzi and Darzan etc. Imagine the respect Guru Ji had for Women. This is further highlighted when the Gurus xpress their Love for God, through the example of Husband - Lord and Wife - Soul......and through this Love The Soul can meet the Lord. People before their times were highly critical of Women. Why the Hindus (Paon Ki Jooti.........etc), the Muslims (most of the people in hell are women) and Christians (cause of al evils that lead to the eatng of the famous 'apple' had all condemned them in different ways. Even thinking of the Women form as being able to love and reach God could come under severe criticism and would be totaly unacceptable to the true sexist. Also I would just request you to provide me the Page Number on which this Shabad is given,so that the total shabad can be read and translated in its true context. I have understood it a bit from Prof Sahib Singh jis translation, but would like to explore it further before exlplaining it and discussing it with you. Thanks dear and bring out all your shankas..we need to clear em up not keep em hidden.

Dear All, I think 'Naam Simran' can be done in a much easier manner. The easiest way to do it is through Keertan. Heres how the young ones can do it :-) 1. Pick up any Gurbaani Shabad with a tune that appeals to your mind or a raagi whose voice the mind finds receptive. 2. Play it while u r driving/at home/doing chores..whatever. 3. At first the mind will listen because of the music appealing to you 4. Then the mind will notice the words in the Shabad 5. Once it starts noticing the words, it will be curious to know the meaning 6. Go to Guru Granth Sahib Ji (online or steeks) and try to find the meaning of the words, the meaning of the whole shabad. 7. Once you know the meaning, the mind realises the beauty in the shabad and the high values preached by our Gurus. 8. Immediatelye one will feel a sense of high ... 9. Now when u listen to the shabads, the meaning will permeate.....and love will take over. 10. The mind will start singing with the shabad 11. Tears can come in ur eyes, and the feeling will be of bliss 12. Since u have understood the meaning, anytime the mind wanders.towards physical evils.............the value of the shabad ..more or less hardwired will sound an alarm bell. (of coyurse it is up to you if u heed to it or not) 13. Grow ur Repository of Shabads then....in some time .....even the tune of the shabad will not matter..............as the first time to listen to a shabad....u will try to find its meaning 14. After a while even music stops to matter..........just reading shabads or hearing Paath will be ok. caue now u will focus on the meaning . 15. I dont think u need to repeatedly do paath ..like a parrot.. " Harhat bhi Tu Tu Karei " Listen, sing with ur mind and most importantly hardwire the value of the shabad in your mind. I guarantee, that if u do this, u will always find shabads, and waheguru being sung by your mind. Keertan was also what Guru Nanak Dev Ji and other Gurus used to do. So I think this is the easiest and the best way to go about meeting God. Regarding picturising someone, u will notice that if you follow the above mentioned methodology,the need for visulaising anyone wil vanish. Even if some pictures form, they will be of a scale and size ...that physically cannot be reproduced. As far as asan's are concerened , I am not impressed, and thats becaue Asan's may be good for Physical well being, but I dont think concepts like opening Dasam Duar through physical asans is advocated by sikhism. Anyway I am readfy for questions .. :-0) H Singh

Dear Veerji, We are all fools trying to learn. Also there is nothing offending about your explanation. Everyone is entitled to their point of view. I do think however that when trying to translate a Shabad, we need to go over the ENTIRE Shabad carefully and analyse it. I am below average person in understanding Gurbaani. Following are my views and I would like you to analyse them. The Shabad...we are referring to is on the following pages of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. It starts at Page 1083 and the lines we are referring to are in Page 1084. You can please visit the site www.srigranth.org for the complete shabad. Ths site has a very good search engine in Gurmukhi and u need only write word dastar (using mousle clicks on a Java based screen Gurmukhi...found on the first page). The Whole shabad (according to my understanding) is addressed to Muslims..(Muslims in Physical aspect only). The whole message is of course the same as in many other shabads and is for the universal brotherhood. Now if we look closely we find that Guru Maharaj is comparing and the physical religion followed by Muslims and advising them on the right path o sikhi. There is refernce to Mecca, Sunnat (circumcision) and a lot of other physical muslim traits. Now if we come to the lines in reference, I believe that there are some importants things that Guru Maharaj is instructing here. Gure Maharaj is saying......let your total awareness ..the complete form which i have given you..............."sabat surat".........be the turban on ur head).................... If you notice the earlier lines of the complete Shabad...you will notice that Guru Maharaj is replacing the physical attributes of the Muslims with spirtual attributes + physical practical actions of sikhi) In this line again, Guru Maharaj actually replaces the physical attributes of the Musilms ( a turban) with the Physical attribute (Hair (physical)...+ ....{sabat surat could also refer to no circumcision...but in an earlier line ...Guru Maharaj has already compared and replaced it}.......the complete awareness (spirtual) .....) Hence in my understanding (alhtough it too is a bit different from contemporary understanding)...this is a very clear pointer about maintaing the Hair....in effect the complete natural form given by God. I dont think this is a pointer towards wearing a turban. Of course when you keep a long hair, a turban is necessary to maintain the same properly.

Guys/Niranjana/Khalsa Soulja, Can you please explain this in more detail...."Sabat Surat Dastaar Sira.." or point me to a resource on the web. And what is this Darbari Rasam ? Thanks H Singh Khalsa Soulja: P.S> I owe u an apology ....(we couldnt contribute on that website forum...of that Arya Samaji .......sho shorry ....)( I have been away (partly to Saudi Arabia.........for business ...not Hajj guys .....lol...... and not able to participate effectively in the forum...and I still dont have a PC ...boo hoo .........lol)

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