double_edge

Babbar Sher, Bro that was deep.. u gotta have a serious Charrdi Kalaa state of mind to say something like that! Alot of us have felt that kind of hurt at one point or another, damn, some cats seem near suicidal when this kind of thing happens. but Orchid, like the man says, sometimes u just have to let go. Hurts like hell, and might hurt for a long time, but like i said before, u do need to get back to ur feet again regardless... I know u dont wanna hear it right now, but the lessons that u've probably learned from this will make things better for you when u do meet the right one. Keep ur head up!

OK, so we all agree that the guy should have stood up for what was best for him/his future partner... But, just to play devils advocate :twisted: in doing what would have been best for himself and his partner, he'd be turning his back on his parents who bought him into this world and have raised him. Mahraj says that your mother is your first Guru, then mentions the father as being the second, and THEN Guru himself third in the list. (forgive me, i cant remember the full line, it starts "Gurdev Maata, Gurdev Pitta..." So what is the Sikhi based standpoint in all this? The question is, where is the line where you actually say "Enough"? Does such a line actually exist? Or, should we be basing our actions on the Praladh/Harnakash story where Praladh just did his Bhagti irrespective of what his father said and did, and God took care of the rest? Opinions?

Please dont say that mate. God IS there and he does hear us. All we can do is ask for his help/guidance. As for him listening to us.. alot of people will probably write alot of stuff.. but heres what i think u should do.. u should go rent this movie: I know its gonna sound really silly, but have u seen Bruce Almighty with Jim Carrey? if u havent then watch it. its funny and will hopefully make u laugh, and is also quite thought provoking as well.. Also watch Groundhog Day with Bill Murray. Again, its funny, thought provoking and theres a message there. Everyone here knows what its like to feel weak. i've seen so many people around me saying "I give up". But u know what? not one of them actually did give up for long. u CANT give up. its not possible for u to do so, coz giving up isnt in ur blood. Royal blood runs in ur viens my friend, coz ur father is the King of Kings. So wipe away those tears, spit the blood out of ur mouth, stand up and dust urself off. No matter how tough it gets, u'll get thru it. Because ur a Warrior. Ur fighting ur own personal war against the hardships of life. I dont know what ur going thru or what ur facing, but i do know that if u ask for the strength to get thru it, He will listen. Keep ur head up friend, and watch those films!

The problem we face as a community is that admitting that there is a problem leads to finding the faults and mistakes that caused it in the first place. And no one, especially the elder generation, likes to admit that they have gone wrong or take any real responsibility. A large part of all of this is being torn between cultures and identities, and like the guy said "Trying to be too many things to too many people" (look at the post abt respecting ur parents for another classic example). Basically i beleive that there comes a time where we as individuals have to draw the line, say "Enough" and do whats best for us. Sure, its a risk and it may not work out in your favour, but its better than suffering in silence like most of our people do. I would say any support there is to be had will come from people of our own generation. But there is a definate lack of structured support there, and the stigma attached to depression will probably always remain. I think the problem affects a large percentage of our community but is often swept under the carpet due to the way we are raised, but something has got to give at some point.

I agree with u totally jtsingh. If that inner voice is the Aatma/Parmaatma, then everything outside of that, ie that which we perceive as "Ourselves" is the product of our own egos. Once again, the truth is there, external factors such as our Hankar and worldy influences create enough noise to drown that voice out. in order to hear it we need to stop, try to listen through the background noise of the world and our egos and hear what the Aatma/Parmaatma has to say. I think we're both talking about the same thing but perhaps from slightly different angles. Thats all im gonna say on the subject though, before i start clouding the issue myself lol.

Ok, this is a real life scenario: A young Sikh couple were planning to get married. The boys parents decided they'd do him a "favour" by buying a bigger family house so there'd be more space while living as a "Happy Family" (whereas frankly, they're quite dysfunctional). The couple were going to have to take on a mortgage that was frankly going to be stretching the couples means beyond what can be considered reasonable, and they were being given no real choice in the matter. Unfortunately the financial strain caused the couple so much stress that eventually their engagement collapsed. They felt that they were out of options and would never in the forseeable future have any financial freedom or ever have the option of buying their own home. The boys parents were both well aware of the stress they were under, but his father chose to ridicule him and wind him up even more, and his mother turned a blind eye because she really wanted the new house and that was her highest priority. So the parents did nothing to help the situation or reassure them in any way. The couple are now beyond reconcilliation as the girl is too afraid of the boys parents to try to resolve things having called it off. it is truly over. now, the boys parents were thinking for his benefit in the long term. They thought they were doing him a favour by buying this house. What they failed to acknowledge was the perspective from which the couple saw things and what was important to them, and they ridiculed them when they expressed their concerns (the idea of a couple having some kind of financial breathing space and being able to generally make the most of their time together as opposed to spending their lives struggling to pay a mortgage they didnt choose to take on). end result is that the parents overbearing attitude towards their son and their lack of regard for his views and concerns eventually caused the breakdown of his engagement. once again, i re-iterate that they thought they were doing him a favour. But, in actual fact they ended up doing alot of harm. now i know the Gurmukhs amongst you will speak of sanjog and lekha etc etc, but the fact remains that their limited perspective of the world and their overall attitudes towards what im sure all young people agree is important to any young couple did some serious damage. So, the question is, at what point do we draw the line and speak up? The boy was doing his best to do what was right by everyone, but by reading the above anyone can see that something was going to have to give. Either it was going to be his "Respectful conduct" or the future he was planning with the person he was hoping to spend his life with. Now the question is, did he take the idea of respecting his family too far?

At what point, if any, should a person draw the line and make decisions for themselves? We all know that many of us being born and raised in the west have a unique perspective of life, one that our parents will probably never understand. They, in most cases, want whats best for us, but im sure we've all seen many cases where their vision is impaired by their lack of understanding. In some cases they are actually doing harm instead of good. So what do you guys think? at what point do we decide whats best for us? and at what cost?

I was once told that our Conscience is God speaking to us. Conscience can be called our Aatma, and as no doubt hundreds of people have already quoted on this site "Aatma is Parmatma" We all know when we're doing the right or wrong thing, because our inner self, our Conscience, our Aatma tells us so. But most of us just choose to ignore that little voice inside of us that says "This is wrong". That voice of reason, i beleive, always points towards the truth. I know the phsychologists amongst us are gonna open a whole new can of worms by bringing people with mental imbalances into the equation, but im sure even they have a benchmark by which we can guage who is a reasonable person. So i'll cover in advance by saying that the inner voice of any reasonable person, if they choose to hear it, will point towards righteousness and the truth. I guess what im saying is similar to what Jamuka had to say: Its there within us. we just need to learn to see/hear it. All this talk of subjectivity etc is exactly the sort of thing that clouds it out.

truly beautiful and insipiring.. Waheguru...

i started taking them ages ago.. the first time i did it it was coz our boiler had conked out.. initially its hard, but i got used to it pretty quick. now its the standard and i dont find it hard at all. in fact, the only time i really use hot water when im washing my Kesh, and even then i finish off with cold water coz my nani said its good for u . the only other time i use hot water is if my muscles feel tense or knotted. i think the trick is, as with many other things, not to make it a big deal.. dont be "OH MY GOD, I HAVE TO TAKE A COLD SHOWER!".. just make it the norm. u'll adapt sooner than u think, and it can be surprisingly refreshing and even relaxing once u get used to it.

Just an open question to all.. what happened to Pyaar that we're all supposed to have in our hearts? im not talkin abt girlfriends or boyfriends, and im not talkin abt being fake with smiles, handshakes and hugs (which is the job of polititians).. im talking abt what set the Singhs of old apart from the Mughals.. the Singhs out matched the Mughals with ferocity on the battlefield, outwitted them and outmanuovered them... they could have behaved like savages and killed indiscriminantly, and mathced the atrocities the mughals commited against women and children.. but they didnt.. what seperated them from the Mughals and the Pathans and the hindu hill cheifs and rajas was the fact that despite being capable of causing such great damage, Sikhs of the Guru have a heart. had it not been for that, we could have been worse than all of the above put together.. during the time of the first Amrit parchar, Maata ji put Pataaseh into the Amrit so that we'd have some sweetness in us to balance that RAW POWER. but where has that sweetness gone in us today? i look at myself and see how cynical i have become, which is wrong. but then i look around and see how many people are so fake, which makes them equally cynical.. the Sikhs of old, wether they were Nihangs or "regular" Sikhs (another issue that seems to have created so much contreversy) always had a sense of humor, always lived in Chardi Kalaa, and were ultimately filled with a love of Waheguru, which shone through despite the fact that they were rough around the edges.. but where has that sweetness gone amongst us? im the most guilty of this, as i've become so cynical with the political games i see played amongst the youth and their attempts at scaling the social ladder at places like Kirtan Darbars, camps etc...ive seen Sikhs who called each other brothers tab each other in the back over trivial things (and have experienced this first hand). i've seen the hypocrisy of those who are bidding to be the leaders of the Naujavan as they move into adulthood. and if we look on this board, there are so many peole just itching to bite each others heads off.. we go on websites and see all kinds of backbiting, slander and hatred amongst Sikhs.. today we al seem to be filled with Krodh and Hankaar. we look down our noses at one another, consider ourselves to be better Sikhs than the next guy, or dont even consider him a Sikh at all coz we follow different Maryada etc.. my question is: what happened? where has it gone? and how do we bring it back? im not sayin we should all be huging and kissing one another, as thats often fake anyway.. but cant we at least kill some of the akkarr and chill out enough to give each other some basic courtesy and respect? i know my Guru doesnt want me to feel the way im feeling right now, which is cynical and untrusting.. perhaps one of u Gurmukhs can help answer these questions.

Experience God in a club? maybe u can... ask the dj to play "Baari Kholke WAHEGURU Bolke!" that way u get to do Bhangra and Simran at the same time LOL, im just kidding , hope i didnt offend any of u Gurmukhs!

FAO Kaal. once again, this is a classic example of someone not wanting to hear something. it was as hard for me to hear as it is for u, beleive me, and i dont see many people, myself included, from adhering to it. but that goes for alot of things.I think my previous post sums it up... this argument will probably never be settled as we simply dont want to hear that certain things are wrong. so im just gonna sum it up in what will be my final post on this thread. you used the example of the Borg from star trek.. i suppose u would use the same analogy for someone who gets up at 3am to do their Nitnem, or someone who does Naam Simran and Mool Mantar as they walk around/sit on a train etc. I guess u'd have to be some kind of robot to have love first and foremost for ur Guru, and to try supress Kaam Krodh Lobh Moh and Hankaar.. coz without those things, ur a robot right? Mahraj tells us "Gurmukh thorra bolna, ghat sohna, ghat khaana" a Gurmukh says little. Sleeps little, and eats little, ie does not live a life of indulgence. so dyou see a Gurmukh, who says little as hes busy doing his Simran and living in nimerta, who sleeps little as he wants to do his Nitnem at the optimum time (Amrit vela), who only eats to feul his body as opposed to go flipmode on sugary and fatty foods and grow a gut, dyou see that Gurmukh indulging in that sort of recreation? what it comes down to is that most of us are manmukhs, and we come here hoping to find justification for how we live our lives. i think enough has been said on the subject, and those that dont want to hear it wont take it on board. the truth, invariably is a bitter pill to swallow... in any case, i think this whole thread is a dead end that will never end and we'll all stick to our guns.. i would in conclusion to re-iterate that i am not a Gurmukh like the ones described.. im simply a Manmukh who, as difficult as it often is, tries to absorb the words of our Guru and his Gurmukhs.. i may not live by his rules, but i'd be an even bigger fool to deny is word out right. all the best to all of u.. im off to see my girlfriend (LOL, just windin u all up!)

allow me to translate some of Sevak Paajis comments: "i know whats right" "but i dont have to do it" "if u argue with me ur not a Sikh, ur a Brahmin" "im gonna carry on as before without taking account of anything thats been discussed, i dont care if its right or not, and im gonna keep promoting my view despite what Mahraj may say". Paaji, im all for freedom of choice. thats not whats in question here. an im not ina position to preach coz do i follow all the rules? not by a longshot.. do i want maya and wordly comforts? ABSOLUTELY! am i a Manmukh? YOUD BETTER BELEIVE IT (infact im thinkin of changin my nick to Manmukh coz i think it suits me).. BUT, if I choose to do something against Mahraj's teachings, then i should have to courage to stand up and say "yeah, im a Manmukh, i want maya, i want worldly pleasures, and these are MY views, no one elses" as opposed to try to use any and all means to justify myself.. as far as forcing rules is concerned, we're not arguing abt enforcing anything. our Gurus prescribed us a path through the blazing inferno of Kaam Krodh Lobh Moh Hankaar and Maya that is this world. they warned us that if we stray we'd pay the price and get burned (examples can be found in Jassa Paaji's quotes). if we choose not to follow the rules and are willing to risk burning, then thats our own individual business.. but what ur effectively saying is "rules are optional, so i wont get burned".. on a personal one to one level, im not really too fussed wether ur dating anyone. thats ur business.. but if one of my brothers/sisters, anyone i know or anyone that comes on here seeking to further their understanding reads what u've written and thinks that justifies their lives, then U would be answerable for misrepresenting Mahraj.. (and i wouldnt want to have to explain that to Mahraj.. im in enuff deep shit as it is LOL) in conclusion all i can say is this: Acknowledge what is right and wrong, acknowledge what we're taught.. then make ur decisions.. do what u want, but please dont try to promote a "new and improved" Sikhi for today.. coz thats not something any of us are qualified to do..

FAO Jassa, im a Paaji LOL (thought i'd better clear that up b4 anyone asks for my number LOL, kidding!) So far as Sevak's comment goes abt lust and marriage.. i think the difference is obvious.. u'd have love for whoever ur married to, as opposed to the lust u feel for some random woman (which is just animal instinct, and love doesnt even come into it). and if we really want to take the gloves off and get into it, then some friends of mine were told by some Chardi Kallaa Gurmukhs that even after marriage, Gurmukhs only do those certain things for the purpose of procreation, which is part of living in Ghristi (as Gursikhs must), as opposed to the obvious recreational applications.. again, that was VERY hard for manmukhs like me to hear.. but i guess that just comes down to how immersed each individual is into their Guru and his Naam.. if a Gurmukh is intent on being up at 3am to do his or her Nitnem and Simran at Amrit vela, then they'd need to have had a good nights sleep (thats abt as crudely as im gonna put it here, but we all know what im talkin abt!).. whereas manmukhs like myself, who hardly ever do their Nitnem anyway will probably be less worried abt that. if we look at it from a common sense standpoint, then we would see that "love" is often Kaam using the soft touch to get into the system. If u "love" someone, then u probably want to spend alot of time with them.. u want to be close to them. that love n closeness may manifest itself in holding hands, and giving the object of ur affection a hug.. now that we're hugging, whats wrong with a little kiss? its not kaam after all, its love! lol.. u can see where it leads. as for Sevaks other question, where he demanded that he be shown an anti dating quote from Mahraj.. well, for a start, the idea of living a life of Ghristi and being monogomous negates the dating theory outright. im not going to pretend i know enuf Baani to quote u anything directly, but without meaning to sound disrespectful, i dont think u'd accept it even if i did, cos thats not what u want to hear.i feel i can say this cos im EXACTLY the same.. alot of the time i dont want to hear it cos i want to live my way, and im scared of hearing that im not right.. but deep in my heart i know when im wrong, as we all do. im nobody to preach, as we all have the same feelings and we all have to some degree a Manmukh side to us (people like me have more than most). but to try and justify our Manmukhi by trying to outwit each other and use Bani/Reht etc to justify our own ends? please my freinds, lets not go there. if anyone decides that they want to hook up, thats their business. how far they go int heri relationship is also their own business. but nobody has any business trying to justify it to the rest of the world and potentially influence others to follow their example. i'd save it for when u have to justify urself to ur Guru. As we are told so BLATANTLY in Anand Sahib "Aisaa Kaam Mooleh Na Keejeh, Jit Ant Pachotaiyeh" "Dont EVER do any such deed, that you will regret in the end" (i.e when u must face ur Guru)

I dont know very much, and im probably WAY out of my depth posting here, but i'd just like to give my understanding of the Hindu Dieties issue.. so far as i can gather, and with my limited knowledge, The Guru Granth Sahib Ji and our other religious texts acknowledge the existance of Hindu Dieties and Demi Gods.. as it was explained to me, these Demi Gods gained their power by the blessings of and through the worship of Mahraj, (wether we know Mahraj as Waheguru or Hari or Ram etc.).. I beleive even Japji Sahib, which was written by Guru Nanak Dev Ji refers to Hindu Dieties. each of these demi gods have the power to grant u certain things, ie they all have their specific area, im told there is a diety for every human want and need, and they number something like 33 million :shock: . BUT, our Gurus, through giving us the Guru Granth Sahib and our other Scriptures, be they Dasm Granth, Sarbloh Granth, have given us the means to go to Mahraj DIRECTLY (and thereby gain ALL their blessings,as opposed to go thru various Devis or Devtas).. i think this is the source of major confusion.. we do not worship the hindu dieties because we dont have to.. we have our Guru and his prescribed path. so all that being said, i DONT beleive we're Hindus.. we're Sikhs because we have our Guru, so its a totally different path. but so far as i understand we're meant to show respect and tolerance to other faiths and to the fact that all religions worship Mahraj in some way, so we shouldnt really diss them. keep in mind, that its the PEOPLE who are a bunch of screw ups, not their DHARM.. hope ive made some sense and not confused any of these issues further.. apologies for anything i've said that may offend..

I have to agree with Khalsa paaji.. hard to hear for a Manmukh like me but i cant dispute it. the girlfriend/boyfriend thing is a social norm, which is why we find it so hard to stay clear.. but thats no real excuse .. drink n drugs are a social norm as well. going on Kaam fueled holidays to Ibiza, Aya Napa etc are also socially acepted norms, but we dont see anyone arguing abt that here. no ones about to start a thread saying "is it ok for Gursikhs to go to Ibiza and see how many drunk goriya they can get with?". we sit here saying that we're in control, its about love etc etc.. but would we tolerate one of our own sisters having a boyfriend? the vast majority of us wouldnt. suddenly its a different story. we dont care if u think ur in love.. theres family honor to think abt etc. and of course ego comes into it where we'd rather be able to say that we found someone ourselves rather than being set up by some aunty. so we make excuses and argue that Sikhi is not black and white and we shouldnt be fanatics and judge and so on and so forth... from my limited experience, the biggest problem i've seen in our people is the fact that everyone tries to pull a fast one and use Mahraj's teachings in their favour. even if that means twisting the meanings or only reading part of what is written or arguing that there is no specific quote to cover whatever subject area, and this is no exception. my friends, im probably the biggest Manmukh here, and im not saying that just to sound humble, i really am. if u guys new how i conduct myself, u'd probably give me a well deserved beating.. but even a fool like me can see that there is such a thing as right and wrong. when we argue abt these things, i try n look at it this way: If any one of our Gurus was sat before us, how would we conduct ourselves then? theres no need to answer coz we all know we'd be on the best behaviour EVER, watching what we do and even what we think.. Well my friends, our Guru is always there, always watching. and one day we'll have to face him and justify ourselves. when that time comes, no ammount of wit, akkar or being smart is gonna help. keep that in mind before putting personal opinions before the teachings and examples of our Gurus.. my apologies if i've offended anybody..

personally, i dont see politics ever being seperated from the Gurdware.. its just a sad fact of life.. i've seen the police called to Gurdware to contain potentially violent situations, and have even seen people going to fight each other in the darbar hall, and its all just one big power struggle, using the Guru's name to further their own interests. personally i think its best to stay away from such issues... even those with pure intientions either end up being drawn in or end up being pawns that are sacrificed on a political chessboard. it saddens me to say that even amongst some of those Sikh youth who are getting involved and trying to play a part, it soon becomes apparent in their mannerisms and their actions that they too have started going down the same path and become dragged into the same mentalities as those comitee members and polititians we are discussing here today.. that is talking sweetly to all with a silver tongue while having a "use and abuse" policy when it comes to the sangat. you dont have to look far to see the comittee members of tomorrow right under your noses today. those who do the real seva at the Guru Ghar are those doing Mahraj di Seva, Langar di Seva, Jorreya (shoes) di Seva, sweeping floors, cleaning the bathrooms and Japping Mahraj's naam. and im sure those people are the most beloved of our Guru, rather than the folks who are after the spotlight, making money and giving long winded speeches in Mahraj's presence that often end with an appeal for the building fund. all i can say to my friend who made the first post is this: Go to the Gurdwara to see your Guru. then leave. if what you see around u bothers u that much (and i cant blame u), then go a times when nobody's there, ie during the day or early morning.. dont get dragged into all this, its not worth it.

If you have had a personal bad experience with someone, and seen with ur eyes what is true, is it still Nindya to discuss this with others or warn someone from getting burned as you did? example, your discussing something with a mate and ur friend, in general conversation brings up the name of a third party, lets call them X. is it wrong to say "i'd watch myself around X", and as your friend would inveitably ask "why?" explain the reasons why you dont trust them? or to bring X up as an example o the type of person that fits whatever you happen to be discussing? is this still slander?

I agree with Kaur@Gurus Feet, i have been told the same thing by many gurmukhs that i have had the good fortune of meeting. but i can see where Kaal is coming from when he talks abt the karam issue.. but i think that if Mahraj has given us Hukam to live in ghristi (ie family life within society), then following his Hukam is in itself a form of seva.. so far as i understand ur both right.. beacuse the way it was explained to me, living in Ghristi means that you are simply unable to do that much bhagti due to the time spent carying out ur worldly duties.. but Mahraj counts that time spent as time doing seva because by doing so, u are existing within hukam, as opposed to living as a recluse and doing bhagti.

Does anyone know the actual origin of the khanda (ie the emblem)? when did it come into being? when was it first put on the Nishaan Sahib? and by who?

Having a caste system is a MAJOR problem.. we have enuff divisions amongst our people as it is. this gives another excuse for people to make up their own rules and regulations and are dragged further from their Guru in the process. and new generations suffer as a result. i saw the most shocking thing in my life when i attended the wedding of an old schoolfriend of mine. I walked into the "caste specific" Gurudwara and saw bacon, eggs and sausages being served in the langar hall. my friends, i had no idea what was going on.. and to these people it was quite the norm. I was so disgusted that i left, and didnt even go up to the darbar hall for two reasons: firstly, had i seen any kind of be-addbi (disprespect) happning up there i would have flipped out and caused a massive scene at someones wedding amongst people who find this kind of behaviour appropriate secondly, i was afraid to accept the deg (prashaad) as i had no idea what it would be and how it was prepared. this is the extent to which we are divided my friends. people argue about meat, drink, morality etc etc and in the process all we do is drift further out to sea and away from the safety of the shore. i simply say this: regardless of what your cultural background is, regardless of the caste names up on our Guru Ghars, just focus on embracing our Gurus word IN ITS ENTIRETY. ie not trying to be slick and misqouting Baani for our own ends. because i have seen with my own eyes the depths that these things have caused people to stoop to.