amardeep

Could it be that she used her useless son to destroy the raj?

This charitar obviosly has to do with the prominent concept of royal dynasties and how to continue a dynasty. It was very normal in human history that the females of harem's would plot and plan how to make sure their own sons were to take over power. If you read the story of Hindu and Muslim kings of India and the Middle East this is something that keeps happening again and again. The way I see it, the story raises a discussion on legitimacy of the throne, - is being the son really all it requires to become a heir to the throne? Human history shows that many were of this belief, - if that is all it takes, then what do you do with all those fraud cases where the person sitting on the throne is not even the real son ? It debunks the whole notion of heirship and sitting on the throne, if it can be manipulated that easily. According to the Hikayat, a true king is he who has wisdom and justice, - not bloood lines.

interesting website, thanks for sharing

What did you find unsuitable with the different traditions you have explored so far?

Yep it's due to mistranslations.

So sad :(

Aaargh sorry. I thought Raja Daleep etc. was a figurative figure

Are you sure these can be connected? From what i've read, the Akal Ustat was composed in the 1680s whereas the Hikayat is from mid 1690s.

Fascinating

Sorry forgot

This kind of mixed theology is also seen in the Japji sahib. ਗੁਰੁ ਈਸਰੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਗੋਰਖੁ ਬਰਮਾ ਗੁਰੁ ਪਾਰਬਤੀ ਮਾਈ ॥ गुरु ईसरु गुरु गोरखु बरमा गुरु पारबती माई ॥ Gur īsar gur gorakẖ barmā gur pārbaṯī mā▫ī. The Guru is Shiva, the Guru is Vishnu and Brahma; the Guru is Paarvati and Lakhshmi. ਗੁਰੂ ਧਾਰਨ ਕਰਕੇ ਹੀ (ਈਸਰੁ) ਸਿਵਜੀ ਹੂਏ ਹੈਂ ਗੁਰੂ ਹੀ ਧਾਰਨ ਕਰਕੇ (ਗੋਰਖੁ) ਬਿਸਨ ਜੀ ਹੂਏ ਹੈਂ ਗੁਰੂ ਹੀ ਧਾਰਨ ਕਰਕੇ (ਬਰਮਾ) ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਜੀ ਹੂਏ ਹੈਂ ਗੁਰੂ ਹੀ ਧਾਰਨ ਕਰਕੇ ਪਾਰਬਤੀ ਜੀ (ਮਾ) ਲੱਛਮੀ ਜੀ (ਈ) ਸੁਰਸਤੀ ਜੀ ਹੂਈ ਹੈ ਵਾ ਗੁਰੂ ਹੀ ਸਰਬ ਦੇਵ ਰੂਪ ਹੈਂ ਈਸਰ ਕਾ ਗੁਨੁ ਧਾਰ ਕਰ ਸਿੱਖੋਂ ਕਾ ਅਗ੍ਯਾਨੁ ਨਾਸੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਹੈ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਕਾ ਗੁਣ ਧਾਰ ਕਰ ਸੁਭ ਗੁਣੋਂ ਕੀ ਪਾਲਣਾ ਕਰਤਾ ਹੈਂ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਕਾ ਗੁਣੁ ਧਾਰ ਕਰ ਪ੍ਰੇਮ ਆਦਿ ਗੁਨ ਉਤਪੰਨ ਕਰਤਾ ਹੈਂ ਇਸੀ ਭਾਂਤ ਪਾਰਬਤੀ ਕਾ ਗੁਣ ਧਾਰ ਕਰ ਅਵਗੁਣੋਂ ਕਾ ਨਾਸੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਹੈਂ ਲੱਛਮੀ ਕਾ ਗੁਣੁ ਧਾਰਕਰ ਦੈਵੀ ਸੰਪਦਾ ਕੇ ਗੁਣੋ ਕਾ ਦਾਤਾ ਹੈਂ ਸੁਰੱਸ੍ਵਤੀ ਕਾ ਗੁਣੁ ਧਾਰ ਕਰ ਬਾਣੀ ਕਾ ਪ੍ਰਕਾਸੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਹੈਂ॥ ਪ੍ਰਸ਼ਨ: ਐਸੇ ਗੁਰੋਂ ਕੀ ਮਹਿਮਾ ਔਰ ਭੀ ਕਹੀਏ॥ ਉੱਤਰ:

If you listen to the katha of Rababis you'll see they also sometimes do something similiar of mixing diversity to present unity. Ik oankaar Allah Satnam Allah Karta Purakh Allah Nirbhau Allah etc etc. Kavi Santokh Singh has a manglacharan similiar that goes something like: Ik Nanak Oankaar Angad Karta Amardas Purakh Ram Dass Nirbhau Arjan Nirvair Har Gobind Akaal Moraat Har Rai Ajuni Har Krishan Saibhang Tegh Bahadur Gur Prasaad Gobind Singh Diffent guru bodies, same spirit. One.

So in essence: One Oankaar, The Victory of Vahiguru One Oankaar, [may] the Sword assist me One Oankaar, I kneel before the Power [behind the sword] One Oankaar, I kneel before Krishna Now begins the vernacular translation of the tenth chapter of the Bhagavat Purana, By your power O' Shiva. The above manglacharan mixes different Indic theologies into one philosophy. It would be like writing a Abrahamic text that invokes Allah, Jehova, Jesus etc in one go!. Contradictory for some, unity for others. The first line invokes the followers of Akaal Purakh (Sikhs) The second line invokes the Goddess Shakti worshippers The third like invokes the Brahma worshippers (Kara refers to creator ie brahma) The fourth line invokes the Vaishnavas The fifth line invokes the Shivaites The last three are the trimurti.

It's a grammatical form of the root "karaa" ie to do something. To perform or do something. Like Karta Purakh is the performer/doer. I read it as the power/essence behind the physical deed of performing an action. The namaskaar before hand is to the talwaar that symbolises power/shakti - so this namaskaar is to the force behind the talwaar.

It's always been going on amongst Sikhs. The early British census reports also reveal that the British had a concern due to the large amounts of females being killed by the Sikhs.

In terms of manglacharans in Sikh literature, there was no standard per se apart from Ik Oankaar. What comes after the Ik Oankaar is always diverse. The hukamnamas of Mata Sundri and Mata Sahib Devi often has invocations like Ik Oankaar Guru Guru. Banda Singh Bahadur's was Ik Oankaar Fateh Darshan. Dasam Granth has Ik Oankaar Satgur Prasaad or Ik Oankaar Sri Vahiguru ji ki fateh. Guru Granth Sahib has Ik oankaar Satgur Praasaad but also some others variations.. Some of the kavis of Guru Gobind Singh had "Oam" which marks the author as a non-Sikh. There was no standard apart from Ik Oankaar untill at least the late 1700s when the Vahiguru ji ki Fateh becomes prominent. But alongside this you still have the "...ya namah" that continues in the samprdayas. The constant and fixed beginning of Ik Oankaar is very vital, as it means that the prime isht and focal point for these various writers is Akaal Purakh. Not some minor God.

In this manglacharan it is: Akaal Purakh (Nirgun), Shakti in the form of the sword (Sargun), The concept of power (Nirgun?) and finally Krishna (Sargun). And then begins the story of Krishna.

I think it has to do with what scholars of today call "Kavi maryada" - it was normal in higher literature at the time to invoke your primary nirgun isht and focal point (Akaal Purakh) hereafter followed by the Sargun saroops (one or more) then down to your own gurdev/Vidiya Guru. You can see Kavi Santokh Singh doing the same .. He starts with Oankaar, then Sarasvati, then the Gurus, then Guru Gobind Singh, then Guru ji's talwaar and finally Giani Sant Singh who he learned from. Pandit Gulab Singh has a similiar approach just another order: Akaal Purakh, Ram Chander, Guru Nanak, Guru Gobind Singh and finally Pandit Maan Singh,.

I'll take a proper look in the next few days. Interesting that it is a re-translation of the dasam skandh that is also to be found in the Dasam Granth. Good stuff for comparative analysis. The invocation is unique from what i've seen in Dasam Granth. The "...ya nam[ah]" ending is often found in 18th century Nirmala and Udasi writings - ie. Sri Ganeshya Nam[ah]" .. I dont think this manglacharan can be found in Dasam Granth.

No Basics of Sikhi is a good approach to grasp the fundamentals of Sikhi. And then continue on with Nanak Naam for the deeper stuff.

If you havent already found them then look up basics of sikhi on YouTube and nanak naam for the deep philisophy

Interesting. Fascinating to study the internal design and organization of Sri Guru Granth Sahib and Sri Dasam Granth sahib.

I always assumed that those pen names were used to signify the concept of Yug Avatar. Kaal being one of Vishnu's names,Shyam is the name of Krishna, and Ram obviosly Ram Chandar. Gobind being the avatar for this age as per bhai Gurdass. So it could be a way of poetically signifiying that the author is the yug avatar of this age. The names Shyam and raam also occour in the Sarbloh Granth.

I've heard this explanation before about Mata Gujri using those names. Is there any 18th or 19th sources to confirm that this was the case?

yes please do