wahegurubol

Dear Kavita Kaur ji, From what I can understand Zinah means to have sex before marriage, and from what I can understand that if she was not a child, she would have been then lawfully executed in Iran? Dear Kavita Ji, first lets talk about Zinah in the light of Sikhism. I dont know but if you must have heard the story of a woman who was a prostitute and she too was forgiven by our Guru saab. Guru Saab themselves have written that story in SGGS, in which this prostitute begs for mukti and the Saints-Mahapursh who come to their home give her a parrot and tell her to make the parrot recite the name of the Lord every morning. Then one morning as this prostitute is reciting the name of the Lord, a snake enters the cage and kills the parrot. She doesnt realise the parrot has died and puts her hand in the cage where the snake is sitting and she to dies while reciting the name of God. In Gurmat... we dont punish anyone. We dont have any right to punish anyone for committing zinah or whatever it maybe. Only God decides what to do and what not to do. If God has mercy then even a person who does zinah can get mukti, as I have mentioned in the story above, which is in SGGS. So if this girl committed Zinah, then why did they execute the girl alone, why didnt they execute all those men who committed zinah with her -including the moral police. Dont you think it is unfair that they executed the girl alone and didnt take any action on the men who took advantage of her. If you can please take some time out and watch this vide on youtube. It will enlighten you more on the girl's case and the environment prevailing Iran. Mistakes happen by everyone, but the Guru forgives, bcause that is what the Guru is for and this is why we say God is merciful and forgiving. So to execute someone and say that they will goto hell and bla bla ... is very cruel. Please have a look at the video.

Kavita Kaur ji by middle east i meant to say countries like "Saudi-UAE-BAHRAIN-QATAR" etc..... Iran-Iraq are left out ..those are big countries... but ppl who live in UAE-Bahrian-qatar, oman these countries are usually considered one council... they can roam around free. Yes drinking, clubbing is anti-gurmat. .... but then again Gurmat doesnt force itself on anyone. Gurmat doesnt say that you have to kill someone who drinks. it doesnt say you have to ban disco clubs... Gurmat is to be followed by personally by ourselves and not to be used as a "LAW" to force others and thats where freedom and democracy comes in. Every individual has to decide fro him/herself

Dear Kavita Kaur Ji, Teenagers might have been executed in USA-UK this could only be because they had commited some heavy crimes. Here a 16 year old girl was executed only because she was in love with a boy and the moral police caught up on her. She was first jailed for a short-term then realised, second time jailed again and drugged and beaten by moral police and then realised, third time she was publically hanged. she was hoisted up using a crane infront of the public.

Veer ji, overall middle east countries are not good for kids, they make your kids go dumb, bcoz there is no extra-ciricular activites.. it is just going to school, homework, eat food and sleep and the same for the working class also, only work-eat-sleep-work-eat-sleep.. yes there are some malls and outdoors you can go, but no natural beauty. ..and the weather is plain hot.

Veer ji, I fully agree with you. infact I have met some people in Dubai they are even taking the construction of a full architectural type of Gurudwara, 3-story. but this is UAE.... In UAE there are night clubs that run after 11pm and up until 3 am. You can drink in UAE.. there are prostitutes in UAE. UAE is like another European country, where many whites live. So I wouldnt say anything about UAE. but talk about Iran ! ... ... Iran and UAE are totally different veer ji...they are not even similar one-bit.

stop denying the truth brother. it is not anti-islamic, but it is just showing that how some people are manipulating islam for their own benefits and it is telling you exactly what is happening in iran. it is not saying woman's purpose in life is to raise more kids, but it is saying that women are inclined to be used as pleasure objects for their iranian husbands so that they dont get abused and this affects their health. pls..stop denying the truth... these things dont happen in any other country. the story of a 15 year old girl being executed..THAT SINGLE ONE STORY IS ENOUGH to prove that Iran is a no-go country. I challenge you to show me any story in which a 16 year old girl being executed in USA-UK-AUSTRALIA-CANADA or for that fact even India or show me any democratic country where they executed a 15 year old girl.

Yes you are right.. about the Nishan Sahib.. why do they let you host the Nishan Sahib?????? do you know the answer... Just do a google search on the iranian flag.. infact the iranian flag is exactly the same as the nishan sahib.... hahahahaha..this is why they let you hoist the nishaan sahib ! and this is why other muslim countries wont let you. infact i have seen someone people here with small nishan sahibs in their cars but when i see the drivers, i found they were iranians. Canada has a lot of respect...for us... Canada should be the Next Punjab..balle balle.

Thats what I am saying, they will provoke the people, so as for Iran you trying to support Iran as a freedom-liking and a good country... flaws here ! While there is no source that says such displays are necessary, but such parades form our community, it is a way of DOING SAT-SANGAT, it is a way of getting togther learning about ourselves and our culture..celebrating ourselves with the Guru... and knowing more about sikhie.

Again.. You have no documentary Source !!! google one documentary source that supports your views and I will believe u.. but you have none. Second, You didnt answer my questions, I didnt ask for your comments/explanations I just wanted a "Yes" or a "No" answer to the question , I typed. So I will answer the questions myself. 1)Is it allowed to do the parade of Panj Pyares on streets with all the sangats , displaying their gatkas and related demonstrations. I mean on the streets. With full saroop ANSWER : NO. THIS MEANS ONE CANNOT CELEBRATE POPULAR FESTIVALS LIKE BAISAKHI. DO A JALOOS OR A PARADE. 2)Is it allowed to carry the savarie of SGGS on the streets, with full respect, in full maryada ..without anyone stopping you? ANSWER : NO. THIS WILL VERY MUCH OFFEND THE IRANIANS ON THE OTHERHAND IN OTHER COUNTRIES LIKE INDIA-USA-CANADA-UK, WHERE YOU HAVE PEOPLE OF ALL CULTURES AND RELIGIONS, YOU CAN STILL CARRY THE SAROOP OF SGGS WITH FULL RESPECT AND FULL REHAT 3)Are you allowed to wear your kirpan outside your clothes , like they do in Toronto-Canada? ANSWER : NO, I HAVE BEEN TO IRAQ, INDIA, BAHRAIN, DUBAI, IRAN, USA, CANADA, CYPRUS, SYRIA, LEBANON. IF YOU WANT TO TALK ABOUT FREEDOM OF WEARING KIRPAN OUTSIDE CLOTHES OTHER THAN INDIA. I WOULD VOTE FOR CANADA. LAND AT TORONTO INTERNATIONAL AIRPORT YOU WILL SEE TAXI DRIVERS WEARING DUMALLAS AND KIRPANS OUTSIDE THE SHIRT.... GOTO MALTON GURUDWARA AND YOU WILL SEE BIBI JIS AND MENS WEARING KIRPAN OUTSIDE..WITH FULL FREEDOM. TALK ABOUT IRAN. WHY WOULD I WANT TO LIVE IN IRAN, IN A COUNTRY WHERE MY KIRPAN CAN CREATE MISUNDERSTANDING...SHEET TO YOU IRAN. 4)Are you allowed to have a radio station totally dedicated to Gurmat, Gurbani.. like they have in Toronto-Canada. ANSWER : NO, DURING MY STAY IN TORONTO, I WAS RIDING ON THE TAXI AND ON THE RADIO I GOT THE CHANCE TO LISTEN TO A BEAUTIFUL SHABAD... IT PLEASED MY HEART SO MUCH THAT CANADA GRANTS FULL RIGHTS TO SIKHS SO THAT THEY CAN RUN RADIO STATION ON WHICH WE CAN LISTEN TO GURBANI KIRTAN, PATH.. I WAS HAPPY.. AND I WAS THANKFUL !!! I WAS VERY HAPPY. 5)Can you do open propoganda in public about Gurmat, Gurbani in Iran? ANSWER : NO, GOTO CHICAGO, LOS ANGELES, VANCOUVER, YOU WILL SEE GURMAT SAMAGAM CAMPS FOR CHILDREN RUNNING OUTDOORS, GATKA CAMPS OUTDOORS... NOBODY SAYS ANYTHING.. IF YOU DO THIS IRAN, THEY WILL EXECUTE YOU. CONCLUSION : IRAN IS A NO-GO COUNTRY END OF TOPIC, END OF DEBATE.

yes fatehsingh ji thats right. actually i got a bit angry on the girl.. very little angry and her nature is very sensitive.. extremely sensitive..and she took it to her heart, so she wants to back out now. b4 she was also in love with me just as much as i was, but i made the promise.. not she.

by the word propoganda or promote. I only meant to say organising public festivals such as baisakhi on the streets with the parade of panj pyares, Guru Maharaj's savaries... like they do it in Los Angeles and Chicago .. organising Gurmat study camps for kids. Gatka schools... distribution of literature... all of this is done to keep a communtiy happy and going on ! by saying doing propoganda in public, i meant gursikhs can tell about /talk about gurmat/bani in publicspeeches to... it doesnt mean to convert ! then you got it wrong. i am only trying to say FREEDOM to practice what you believe INSIDE YOUR HOME AND OUTSIDE YOUR HOME.. which is not in Iran.

what you want to know about shivalingam? i already told you, you can ask anybody shivalingam only represents a male/female sex organ in intercourse..and some ppl pray to it...and say it is the force that drives creation.. well Okay fine with them, but i dont .

As a Sikh I believe only and only in SGGS. Shiva is there , Shiva exist. I respect Shiva, but I dont pray to Shiva, nor do I take refuge in Shiva. Guru Gobind Singh ji exhorted Shiva, cos in those days people believe in Shiva a lot and he did it only to make the patriotism come out from them, but Guru Gobind Singh ji also says in His Parvitar... that He prays to ONLY ONE GOD AND NO BODY BESIDES THAT...

Why dont you answer the questions that I have asked in the post. I put this question to Singho, since hes been trying to say that Iran is an all free country.. so let him answer in only YES OR NO ..the following questions, i repeat again : In Iran : 1)Is it allowed to do the parade of Panj Pyares on streets with all the sangats , displaying their gatkas and related demonstrations. I mean on the streets. With full saroop 2)Is it allowed to carry the savarie of SGGS on the streets, with full respect, in full maryada ..without anyone stopping you? 3)Are you allowed to wear your kirpan outside your clothes , like they do in Toronto-Canada? 4)Are you allowed to have a radio station totally dedicated to Gurmat, Gurbani.. like they have in Toronto-Canada. 5)Can you do open propoganda in public about Gurmat, Gurbani in Iran? Moreover he has not documentary source to back-up what he is saying, I have backed up everything with sources to internet sites that support my posts.

singho, has requested documentary source, so i gave him. i met arabs, iranians daily..since i live in one arab country

This is not superflous information.. It is a sourced documentary information. Singho said that he wants a Document Source. So I provided the document source to him.

PLEASE TAKE TIME TO READ THE ENTIRE POST, WHICH WILL TOUCH YOUR HEARTS. When the Iranian Revolution was over, Ayatollah Khomeini wasted no time in changing social laws, especially concerning the dress of women. The mandate of "hijab" requires every woman, regardless of religion to wear dark clothing that covers her whole body. (Mackey, p.335) Scarves are required to be worn covering their heads so as no strand of hair is shown. This so-called veil is a controversial issue in many Islamic nations. Most women concede to wearing the veil more because of intimidation from men than anything else. They feel that by not wearing the veil, they would be the victims of great social pressure. In addition, nationalistic pride persuades women to want to dress differently from Westerners. They believe that by wearing the veil their "honor, dignity, chastity, purity, and integrity are protected. (Abdul-Ati) Lastly, women know that male government leaders are very unlikely to release the strict enforcement of veil wearing, simply because it is the most apparent symbol of Muslim State Law. It is the last thing they would want to surrender. (Bogert) This is easy to understand, as incredibly conservative leaders attempt to keep their values alive in a progressively liberal world. Specifically in Iran, sexual discrimination and violence is rampant, and its effects are unimaginable. Women play an incredibly small role in government affairs. In fact, discrimination is so bad, only 6% of Iranian women are employed. Some public facilities are segregated, and some professions are literally unavailable to females. Domestic abuse is sometimes considered a husband’s right when brought to court, and often, before a virgin woman is executed, a prison guard rapes her, in an effort to make sure she is unable to go to "paradise." ("Prime Victims") Her crime may have been something as simple as trying to become more politically involved. Women are even turned against each other like the girl who set her divorced mother’s bed on fire after being told by her grandmother that her mom was destroying the honor of her family by dating (Prusher). Although it is clear to see that women desperately want to be a significant part of society, they are scared to try. The most disheartening part of the plight of women in Iran is the rapidly growing rate of suicide and infanticide. Daily, women are abandoning their children because they have no means of supporting them. In an effort to please their husbands, they have conceived so many children, thus disregarding their health and the fact that there is no way that they can take care of each and every one. Simply resisting the opinion that a woman’s purpose in life is to produce and raise more Muslims has actually condemned women to death (Schemla). The physical and mental abuse has literally pushed thousands of women over the edge. No human being deserves to live in such conditions. It is clear to see that the hardships and obstacles women face in Iran are the results of conservative teachings, a burning desire to live Allah’s will, and a revolution that will never be forgotten. However, one must question whether this was totally Allah’s plan. In regard to some of the quotes from the Koran mentioned earlier, if men have a "degree" over women, how could Allah have possibly declared them equal? Also, if the two genders are equal, how could a follower of Islam possibly place discriminatory laws against women to the great effect that they are? It is necessary to question if the extent to which women are discriminated against truly is necessary. The boundaries that should be in place in every society have been crossed entirely too far. After years of discrimination, it can be sure that many women must believe that they are less capable than their male counterparts. It is very hard to have faith in the fact that all interpretations of the Koran by governmental leaders are correct, since the words of the Koran so often contradict the opinions of leaders in certain ways. If men and women are equal, how could Allah and Muhammad possibly have also wanted women’s rights to be so few, and their abuse so great? That seems to be the problem with many religious-based governments. People who believe that it must be "their way or no way" often run them. Although quite possibly not the original intent of Khomeini, leaders can twist interpretations for their purposes. It is difficult to imagine how long an established regime like this would take to be turned around. It is my hope, however, that it will be - for the sake of mothers, daughters, and granddaughters especially born into these unjust societies. It is my belief that no God, of any religion, would have wanted a child of his to be treated as it shouldn’t be. Bibliography Abdul-Ati, Hammuda. "The Status of Women in Islam." Internet. 26 October 2000. Armajani, Yahya. Iran. New Jersey: Prentice-Hall. 1972. Bogert, Carroll. "Pushing Back the Veil." Newsweek. 9 April 1995. EBSCOHost. 4 November 2000. Foreign Affairs Committee of the National Council of Resistance of Iran. "Women, Islam, & Equality – Prime Victims." Internet. 11 November 2000. Goldstein, Phyllis, Stephen Wasserstein, and Reeva S. Simon. The Middle East and North Africa. New Jersey: Globe Book Company. 1993. Hudda, Sabira. "Defending Muhammad." World Press Review January 1995. EBSCOHost. 4 November 2000. Islamic Center of Southern California. "To Separate Fact From Fiction." Internet. 26 October 2000. <http> Mackey, Sandra. The Iranians. New York: Plume, 1996. Prusher, Ilene R., "Arab Women – Out From the Shadows." The Christian Science Monitor. 7 August 2000. 8. The Koran. New York: Penguin Books, 1995. Schemla, Elisabeth. "Islam’s Veiled Threat." World Press Review January 1995.EBSCOHost. 4 November 2000. Serrill, Michael, S. "Armed Women of Iran." Time. 21 April 1997. Internet. 11 November 2000.

PLEASE TAKE TIME READ THE ENTIRE POST, IT WILL TOUCH YOUR HEART ! Violence Against Women -- In Iran, Abuse Is Part Of The Culture (Part 2) By Golnaz Esfandiari No woman is safe from domestic violence -- no matter what country or culture she lives in. According to a new UN report, one in three women will be raped, beaten, or abused during her lifetime. Part two of our four-part series on the occasion of today's world "Eliminate Violence Against Women Day" focuses on Iran, where abuse largely goes unreported and -- officially at least -- unrecognized. Prague, 25 November 2003 (RFE/RL) -- Sedigheh is an Iranian woman, one of many who was for years subjected to her husband's physical and psychological abuse. "I remember once he beat me up so hard that for a week I couldn't leave the house. There were bruises all over my face and I had pain all over my body. I couldn't go out. And also violence is not just physical, some forms of behavior and comments bring us more pain than physical beating," Sedigheh said. Sedigheh finally left home. A step many Iranian women are still not willing to take. According to an old Iranian saying: "Women should sacrifice themselves and tolerate." That's how many if not most women deal with domestic violence. Shala Lahiji is the director of Roshangaran, a prominent publisher of women's books in Tehran. She is an active defender of women's rights and says in many cases, abuse of women is seen as normal. "It happens in private life and a legal complaint can destroy the life of a woman. In Iran, I think this is one of the main points, and then [there is] the culture that makes some forms of violence legal, meaning part of the population thinks [abuse is in keeping with the] traditions of society and of love. Women, who are victim of domestic violence, think that that their husband's jealous reactions that turn violent are a sign of love and attention," Lahiji said. Mehrangiz Kar, a prominent lawyer, writer, and human rights campaigner who lives in the United States, says some interpretations of religion contribute to this way of thinking. "In the very traditional and religious setting in which [many in Iran] live, their understanding of religion and the interpretation given to them throughout the centuries is that a man can beat his wife. They say it's a religious command and so the commentators who have portrayed Islam in this light as a violent religion, also contribute to the growth of this culture," Kar said. The police and judicial system are of little help. If a battered woman calls the police, it's unlikely they would intervene. The traditional attitude toward marital conflict in Iran inclines people to mediate between the couple. In many cases the woman is sent back to her violent home. "In our judicial system there are no laws that prevent domestic violence. On the contrary, in the Islamic penal code there are many points that encourage violence against women in families. One is the issue of blood money. As you know, a woman gets only half the blood money a man gets. This directs the nature of society toward violence because it means that the life of a woman is not equal to the life of a man," Kar said. Kar was referring to a law that says the family of a female murder victim is entitled to about half the compensation paid to the family of a male victim. A researcher -- who declined to give her name -- from Human Rights Watch in New York says in Iran, marital rape is not a crime. "Under the civil code a woman has the duty to submit to her husband and this is called 'tamkin' and that includes submitting to his sexual demands so effectively you have a marital rape exemption under the Iranian law," the researcher said. Few women try to escape a violent home because they are economically dependant on their husbands. And while according to Iranian law men can divorce at will, for women it often requires a long legal battle. Men also have the right of the custody of the children after divorce. Kar says men can use this right as a way of threatening their wives. "The most effective violence against women is the threat to take the children away and because for women, with their motherly nature, having to endure being away from their children is the worst problem and violence, in many cases they give in. They refrain from discussing their problems with their families -- let alone the courts," Kar said. Sedigheh, who experienced domestic violence herself for many years, says after her divorce, her husband took custody of their child and prevented her from seeing her child. "[My husband] didn't even let [my daughter] go to school for some time so that I was not able to go there and meet her, and when he was forced to send the child to school he dropped her off and picked her up himself. He also told the principal not to let me see the child. During our life together, I allowed him to beat me if I knew it would stop him from torturing the child. And being away from my child was the worst torture for me. I still have nightmares about those days and nights," Sedigheh said. Kar says in Iran women are also subjected to "state violence." As an example, she cites the Islamic dress code, according to which a woman should cover her hair and body. "Any woman who appears unveiled in public -- before they would arrest her, insult her, and put her in prison and also they flogged her -- now the judge can choose between a jail term and a fine," Kar said. The Human Rights Watch researcher says the compulsory Islamic dress code is a violation of women' rights: "You know you could speak of the 'hejab' as 'state violence' in the sense that it violates women's rights to moral integrity, to her freedom of conscience and to her liberty." Kar says the laws need to be amended to give more protection to women. And she adds that shelters for battered women to go to if necessary should be built across the country. However, she adds the government is opposed to it. "Iran's judicial and political system has not accepted this proposal so far. They think the dangers of these types of shelters outweigh the possible benefits. And maybe they think that that there will be an influx of women who are victims of violence and it will lead to a new crisis in the society. The regime is afraid of accepting safes shelters," Kar said. Women's rights activists say the relatively high number of runaway girls and the rising number of women who commit suicide suggests domestic violence may be widespread in many families. Shirin Ebadi, Iran's Nobel Peace Prize laureate, and other activists say self-immolation by women is on the rise because of violence and discrimination. Public awareness of the issue is growing. Workshops are being organized on domestic violence and newspapers are giving coverage to the issue. Lahiji says some men are also becoming more aware of women's issues. "We also have men who are sensitive to women's issues, men with higher education who are doing research on women's issues. I welcome it and I think it's a turning point. In the society, men and women should find out together where their shortcomings are. Until these shortcomings are recognized there will not be any progress. And the social and economic equality of women and men in the society is progress," Lahiji said. The United Nations says prevailing gender inequality is the main source and breeding ground for the continuing scale of violence against women around the world. Copyright © 2003. RFE/RL, Inc. Reprinted with the permission of Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty, 1201 Connecticut Ave., N.W. Washington DC 20036. www.rferl.org

Mr. Shamsher aka Javanmard aka Singho Look brother , I have nothing against you. I am no trying to prove that one country is better than the other. Infact soul has not countries, no caste nothing. But I am just trying to show to you that the things that you are trying to say about Iran are not true, you also know that they are not true, but still you insist on proving "I am better than You"---TYPE of attitude. This is not where the discussion is going on. Alright then, Just answer me the below mentioned questions in only yes or no. In Iran : 1)Is it allowed to do the parade of Panj Pyares on streets with all the sangats , displaying their gatkas and related demonstrations. I mean on the streets. With full saroop 2)Is it allowed to carry the savarie of SGGS on the streets, with full respect, in full maryada ..without anyone stopping you? 3)Are you allowed to wear your kirpan outside your clothes , like they do in Toronto-Canada? 4)Are you allowed to have a radio station totally dedicated to Gurmat, Gurbani.. like they have in Toronto-Canada. 5)Can you do open propoganda in public about Gurmat, Gurbani in Iran? The answer to those Five questions is NO ! The rest the sangat can decide about Iran. Switch to full edit form

Mr. Shamsher aka Javanmard aka Singho Look brother , I have nothing against you. I am no trying to prove that one country is better than the other. Infact soul has not countries, no caste nothing. But I am just trying to show to you that the things that you are trying to say about Iran are not true, you also know that they are not true, but still you insist on proving "I am better than You"---TYPE of attitude. This is not where the discussion is going on. Alright then, Just answer me the below mentioned questions in only yes or no. In Iran : 1)Is it allowed to do the parade of Panj Pyares on streets with all the sangats , displaying their gatkas and related demonstrations. I mean on the streets. With full saroop 2)Is it allowed to carry the savarie of SGGS on the streets, with full respect, in full maryada ..without anyone stopping you? 3)Are you allowed to wear your kirpan outside your clothes , like they do in Toronto-Canada? 4)Are you allowed to have a radio station totally dedicated to Gurmat, Gurbani.. like they have in Toronto-Canada. 5)Can you do open propoganda in public about Gurmat, Gurbani in Iran? The answer to those Five questions is NO ! The rest the sangat can decide about Iran.

I dont have to provide documentary sources, you can just look up on the net and find so many. Show me one documentary source that Iran is a free country ?? US embassy has WARNED its citizens to travel to Iran. Cos they may never return I have posted photos of people being executed publically !! infront of an audience like show... thats more than enough of a source to imply it as a NO-GO country.

I have not cited any documentarly sources, where have you cited your documentary sources? Moral police is one of the most troublesome in Iran, they loot in people public custory and harass females who come in their custory. They are the ones who often drug people and harrass them at night. What are you talking about ? If Iran is so free then go and live there and enjoy yourself ! Debate closed.

Thanks, indeed your brain is big and my brain is little ! which cant comprehend anything.

at night its not safe at all. Now you tell me, you said that they can enter into sexual relationship without breakign the law? what you mean by breaking the law. which law can they break. your answer dont satisfy me.., and more than that, Iran has a MORAL POLICE. do you know what a MORAL POLICE is? A Moral Police will look into every aspect of your private life of what you do and what you dont do , they can even come to your home while your sleeping just to check if your not committing adultery.