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www.satsahib.net According to Mahant Ganesha Singh ji's Bharat Mat Darpan... Sadhu Gheesa Das Ji was a Saint from Khekaraa near Delhi who became brahamgyani in the 1840s through meditating upon Om mantra and anahad shabad. His teachings were on Nirgun Braham. His shish became known as gheesapanthi. Mahant Ganesha Singh ji has their roop as being bhagva robes and shaved headed (they now seem to keep kesh). They recite their own bani. This website also links Gheesa Das to the Kabirpanthis. In the photos of the Sant sammelan there is among them a nirmala sadhu.

The classic 'Vedantic' Upanishads ARE the older upanishads - chandogya, brhadaranayak, maandookya (eventually with Gaurapadacharya's karikas), mundaka, taitiriya, aitreya, katha, etc, etc.

The Upanishads are said by scholars to have evolved later, but similarly the vedas themselves evolved with sections being added to them such as the brahamanas, aranyakas and older upanishads...you could argue in the same way Sri Guru Granth Sahib evolved with the addition of Sri Guru Tegh Bahadar Ji's shabads being added later. The term 'vedanta' itself means 'end of the vedas' i.e. the sidhant of the upanishads which are at the end of each veda. Vedanta categorises two types of 'vedic' statement on Braham, referring to statements in the Upanishads rather than the samhita (older initial sections).

The Upanishads are in the vedas amardeep

And another one... http://gurugangeshwaranandjimaharaj.org/ Swami Gangeshvaranand Ji is considered by many to have been among last century's great saints. His influence is far reaching, with many ashrams established. The article on the Udasin parampra on this website is very interesting for its post-Singh Sabha reconstruction of Udasi origins. Even the origin of the various 'bakshish'-s are removed of association with the Guru Sahiban. While there are still Udasis, generally more in Punjab, who are very much oriented to Gurmat, others have wholly integrated into the hindu mainstream. May I add that I am no expert on the Udasis and my opinions are based only on what little I've read, the numerous ashrams I've visited, and the handful of Udasis that I have met over the years. The samprdaya is, and was by all counts, vast and very diverse.

Here are some newer Udasin related websites. http://ramanreti.com/parampara.htm Swami Gurusharan Das Ji is a descendent of the Bhakat Bhagvan lineage. http://www.lifemission.org/spritual_lineage.htm Swami Pranavanand Ji lineage of Udasis. http://www.swamimanishanandji.org/swamiman...ishanandji.html disciple of Swami Madhavanand Ji Udasin --- You can see why I think we should be cautious when making any categorical statements about the nature of Udasis over the last century.

excellent

Both. Since it functions a bit like visnu sahasrnama, through adjectives it describes both nirgun and sargun. There are different views on the opening verse (chakr chihan ar baran jat...), perhaps it is gyani surjit singh ji or pandit narayan singh ji who describes it as a description of nirgun braham. pandit tara singh narotam, with whom I agree, says both with half of it being of nirgun Braham and the other of sargun Ishvar roop. I take sections such as 'namo geet geetay namo preet preetay' in a similar vein to 'jale hari thale hari'.

A great website! Thank you to the authors for their efforts.

There are quite a few female Sadvis, Sants and Mahants among the Nirmalay presently. I was lucky enough to meet Svami Satpreet Hari while at the kumbh, and hear her pravachans while at a sammelan in Amritsar recently, also Mahant Gubaksh Kaur Ji too. Both are great vidvans of Gurmat and Vedant.

I found the name of the Mahant who is leading the ardas. Its Sant Harjit Shah Suthre Fakir of Dera Shiromani 1008 Baba Anakh Shah Ji (not sure where that is). The dharamsala in Jalandhar is run by Mahant Atamjit Shah Suthre. I have a couple of photos of it. Yes, they are officially part of Bade Panchayat Udasin Akhara, although clearly they keep distinctive traditions and bhekh. The sangat at udasin deras are hindu, hence the bhajan style. This is the dera in delhi I think. I recall Vijaydep Singh saying it was somewhere nr new delhi train station, so preumably paharganj. A big thank you to freed for finding this (i have no idea how he did)!

wow! Incredible! I didn't even know they still keep sticks! The main Mahant with the tilak is the mahant of a 'dharamsala' in Jalandhar. Who on earth put this on there?!

Sant Kashmir Singh Ji Bhurivale has created a nice website showing their kar seva. Their work was pioneered by Sant Jaimal Singh Bhurivale, then Sant Gurdyal Singh ji, images of whom are on Sarabloh info wrongly labelled as Udasi sadhus. http://santbhuriwaleji.com/ There are photos featuring Sri Mahant Svami Gyandev Singh Ji Vedantacharya along with most of the current Nirmal Panchayti Akhara affiliated sadhus, Sants and Mahants.

Matheen, that last bit is completely false! The paranoia that traditional hindus are spreading misinformation about Sikhi is at best a view that is 20 years old, and one that is unfounded. Reformist groups, political parties maybe...but traditional sadhus have no interest in Sikhi. I can think of once a century ago a juna akhara sannyasi wrote a sanskrit text against Guru Nanak Dev, to which the Udasis immediately penned a defence in sanskrit (no sticks or swords notice) and that was that. Swami Dayanand was a reformist, disliked by traditional samprdayas as much as Sikhs. So Sants go to the kumbh for prachar and the sant sangam. Sants going to tiraths is mainly about darshan, and ocassionally to represent the bhekh. In simple terms, in every yuga there have been sants. Bhai Gurdas Ji amply demonstrates that in his narratives. Gurbani (and also the Ramcharitmanas) both recognise that wherever the pavitar lotus feet of the Sant resides, that is the greatest of tiraths. For this reason any collection of sants is likened to the triveni sangam. Amardeep, Bachitar Natak says Guru Tegh Bahadar went to triveni (the site of the mahakumbh) and stayed performing acts of charity. Harkamal, I've not heard of a nirmala ashram there (not that that means there isn't). However I once met an Udasi sadhu who was trying to get me to come with him to his place in Omkareshvar which could be it.

not in the uk! india if yr lucky.

The two books on this that are very detailed are Gyani Balvant Singh Kothaguru's Agam Agadh Bodh biography and Sant Teja Singh's biography. Furthermore, Gyani Balvant Singh's nirmal panth bodh has mastuane vale as a nirmala upsamprdaya.

Sant Attar Singh Ji was first and foremost a puran brahamgyani. Needless to say, no bhekh or samprdaya can give you brahamgyan! So to place too much emphasis on his lineage is, in my humble opinion, to miss the point. So that being said, this is what I know of his jeevan and its links with the Nirmalay. To begin with I have found no reference to Sant ji studying with Sant Karam Singh Hotimardan. What you do find is that Sant Ji's mindset and actions are entirely in accordance with the nirmala traditions, although perhaps more so in the mould of Sant Karam Singh Ji. Sant ji initially learnt gurmukhi and paath from Sant Buta Singh in the local dera. Then it was through Sant Gyani Jodh Singh Ji, a nirmala from the naurangabad upsamrdaya, who was a granthi in the army, visited the local gurdwara, and become the inspiration for Sant ji to take amrit. Sant Jodh Singh ji was the shish of Sant Ram Singh Virakat, the shish of Bhai Maharaj Singh Ji. Sant Jodh Singh was one of the panj pyaray from whom Sant ji took amrit. Sant ji spent some time in Sant Jodh Singh ji's seva before becoming thoroughly virakat to perform tapasya. Sant Ji went to Hazur Sahib during which time he befriended Svami Bhagat Singh Nirmala. Together they went on a tirath yatra taking in Omkareshvar, Ujjain, Ajmer, Vrindavan, Mathura, Haridvar and Rishikesh. While in Rishikesh Sant ji would rise at 2am and take ganga ishnan, have his food with ganga jal, etc. Sant ji then went on yatra to joshimath, hemkunt sahib, gangotri, badrinath, etc. Sant ji met with a number of very important Nirmalay including Pandit Nihal Singh Thoha Khalsa. Sant ji attended the ardh kumbh mela in hardvar twice in his lifetime. The first time, Sant ji met with Pandit Ishar Singh Ji Dhodharvale and stayed in his ashram in Haridvar. Sant Ji also took part in a katha smagam in Haridvar put on by Nirmal Panchayti Akhara. Sant Ji was also very close to Sant Sahib Das Ji Udasi whose dera is still in Sangrur. Sant Ji heard the katha of Yog Vasistha from Sant Sahib Das. Sant ji's teachings are also advaita. One saakhi recounts that a nirmala sadhu asked Sant Attar Singh Ji about bhagti and Sant ji explained that there are three levels; kanishta (meaning lowest) in which it is felt that there is jiva and a colossal number of other jivas, then madham (middling) in which one recognises jiva and colossal Braham, and uttam (highest) in which there is only Braham, pervading both yourself and the colossal world around you. Even after attending the Panch Khalsa Divan of Teja Singh, the next event in his biography was attending the ardh kumbh, implying no ideological affinity with Teja Singh beyond prachar. Sant Ji also met with and stayed with; Sant Bishan Singh Muralewale, Sant Chanda Singh of Damdama Sahib, Mahant Gulab Singh ji of muktsar (Sant ji attended the opening ceremony of Mahant Gulab Singh's bunga), Mahant Mastaan Singh Nirmala, Sant Ram Singh Thamali, among many others. Obviously Sant Ji met with many other great personalities during his life, but the Sants that he chose to spend time with were nearly always nirmalas. Nowhere does it mention that Sant ji set aside time to study with a particular Nirmala, however, his example is typical of the more tyagi Nirmalay of the 19th century.

I concur with Bahadur. I have never seen the word icon being used to refer to textual descriptions of the attributes of a deity or the divine before. Kamalroop Singh ji, please stop using the word 'sant' to address me. Because a copy of adhyatam ramayan has an image of shiv ji appended to it no bearing on the content of the text nor the intention of the author! Surely you would not make the same conclusion about the illustrated manuscripts of Sri Dasam Granth Sahib or Sri Guru Granth Sahib. I've seen images compiled into all sorts of handwritten granths on various topics, and as we all know, in the 19th century it was not uncommon for granths to have illustrations added to them when being copied at the behest of their patron. The very old copies of Pandit Gulab Singh Ji's works I've seen in private collections and kept by Nirmalay i've met have been simple unbound editions, including Adhyatam Ramayan. So going back to that original point a long time ago, Nirmalay do not use images or icons or visual representations of devtas or bhagvan to teach Gurmat principles.

Moksh Panth Prakash is THE key nirmala work! The CONTENT of that granth defines the nirmal bhekh, not the mangalacharans. No, I'm not making myself clear. What I am talking about here is questionnable generalisations based upon one specific citation, taken out of context. Simply put gapanati, sarasvati and the devi don't arise in nirmala literature as vehicles to teach Gurmat principles.

'The Ist devs mentioned in the Nirmala texts'...again, you only are talking about one granth by Pandit Gulab Singh Ji, a mangalacharn to Ganesh that doesn't reappear in Bhavrasamrit for example. Its pretty clear by reading the works of Pandit Gulab Singh ji, rather than just his mangalacharan, that his Ishtadev is Guru Maharaj as it is is consistent across all his works and his subject is nirguna braham (rather than devtay). We are talking about the content of these works here. That is where the teaching lies. There isn't a clear link between advaita and devtapuja, hence ramanuj, madhvacharya and others writing so vehemently against it. Other Nirmala granths? Pick up any. As for Gurbani, as we all know Sri Dasam Granth and Sarbloh Granth are replete with various references to the devi. Whether you interpret that as the maya-shakti of Ishvar or the actual devi is up to the interpretor. Regardless, Guru Maharaj was conveying teaching through the widely recognised narratives about the devi. That is a lot more of what you are talking about than a mangalacharan to an auspicious deity, prior to a teaching about nirguna Braham. Lets be clear; - two texts have been cited - one does not use 'hindu icons to teach' - there is a vast number of nirmala works out there without any notion of 'hindu icons' being used to teach - therefore your statement is incorrect Whether Nirmalas are hindus is not the issue (and is admittedly a little more complicated). I'm talking about whether Nirmala granths use icons through direct imagery or through puranic narrative, or sarguna attributes, and the answer is that for the mast majority of that literature...no.

Mod's Edit: http://www.sikhawareness.com/sikhawareness...&highlight=

If that is your definition of an icon then Gurbani is replete teachings using Hindu icons. Again I have to seriously question how many nirmala texts you have read by the suggestion that there is a greater amount of references to sarasvati, ganesh, ram and the devi. There isn't. The focus is on advaita, which by its nature is concerned with Braham rather than devtay. This is not the case for Udasi literature. A mangalacharan in a prakaran literature does not necessarily contain namaskar, vastunirdesh, and ashirvad, nor the four anubandhs found in shaastra. A perfect example is the one you quote above, which bears no resemblance to the content of Moksh Panth Prakash which is solely concerned with the nature of tatpad, tvampad, akhandarth and jivanmutki from the perspective of advaita through purva-pakshi-sidhanta.

Bahadur, with due respect, read my earlier post about there only being one text rather than 'some' as you say. A question - please list for me the 'other' Nirmala texts which include icons/images of devtas that you refer to? Sant Kamalroop Singh Ji, you can't seriously expect me to believe that a mangalacharan is the same as an icon?! Mangalcharans are not designed to 'teach' you something, they are exactly what they say they are, an invocation. A 'two dimensional representation' is not a mangalcharan. Surely everyone knows that traditionally prior to study one begins with a mangalacharan to sarasvati. That is not the same as 'teaching through hindu icons'. Neo, this is important because if I said 'Nihangs teach other Nihangs through icons of Ganesh' because I once came across one Nihang who happened to have drawn a picture of ganapti, I'm certain that would be considered naive and ill informed and I would be picked up on it.

No. You cannot represent a three hundred year tradition by referring to one text alone! The 'hindu icons' you are referring to is the ONE and only instance that i have seen (from literally 100s of texts) in which there are a couple of hand drawn images of mahakal and mahakalika (Pandit Tara Singh Narotam's Sri Gurmat Nirnay Sagar). One text hardly constitutes 'Nirmalas' generally. It cannot come down to 'I saw it once therefore they are all like that'. Read the great works by Pandit Ishar Singh, Pandit Nihal Singh Kavinder, Pandit Gulab Singh, Pandit Gurdit Singh, Mahant Dyal Singh, Pandit Sher Singh, Sant Sampuran Singh, Pandit Atma Singh, Pandit Hardev Singh, Mahant Ganesha Singh, Pandit Nihal Singh Gobind mandir wale, Pandit Gobind Singh, Sant Tehil Singh, etc, etc and you get a more rounded idea of where the Nirmal Bhekh is coming from.

Incorrect. Maybe the Udasin, but I've not found anything to suggest Nirmalay had murtian of devtas in their deras, in any of the maryadas written, in 19th century literature, in their mangalacharans, etc. Their line was always advaitvad/nirguna upasana. In fact I've rarely come across puranic material in nirmala compositions and commentaries. We should be careful not to propogate misinformation.