golestan

Be name Khodavand The foundation for this practice is found in the hadiths of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) about Imam 'Ali (as): The Quran is with 'Ali and 'Ali is with the Quran or The Truth is with 'Ali and 'Ali is with the Truth (word for word the same as guru hai bani bani hai guru) Also on the event of Ghadîr the Holy Prophet (pbuh) said: I leave you with the Quran and with my Ahlul Bayt, my Ahlul Bayt, my Ahlul Bayt (the sons of Fatimah and Ali). During the battle of Siffin the army of Muawiah (la) put copies of the Quran on their spears so as to prevent Imam Ali (as) to attack them. Imam Ali (as) told his army not to worry for he was the living Quran. In Shi'a theology the Imam is the speaking Quran whilst the Book is the silent Quran.Based on these principles the chivalry rituals permit the replacement of the living teacher by the Quran or a book of instructions created by him in the case of the Ismaili Imam. The fact that these practices predate Sikhism and can only be found in Shi'ism indicate that the Sikhs derived the idea of guru granth from Shi'ism. kind regards Bahadur Ali Shah

Be Nam-e Khodavand There is no need to thank me N3O. As Imam Ali (as) said, knowledge is to be shared. kinds regards Bahadur Ali Shah

Brahm kavach is a bola of Guru Hargobind, it is part of Nihang oral tradition.It is to be recited 32 times and is supposed to protect against black magic. It is mentioned in passing in Chandi Charitra. Old gutke from warriors contains much material of that kind. Bhai Maharaj Singh's gutka for example contained mantras to invoke yoginis, female magical entities that accompany the goddes Kali or Durga.

Be name Khodavand It's an interesting question. The practice of replacing an absent living teacher with a book is very common among Shi'a Sufi orders of futuwwah and among the Ismailis. The Ismailis for example have a pîr who is a book called Pandyat e Javanmardi (advices on chivalry). As for the futuwwah orders the absent pîr is replaced by a copy of the Quran seated on the pîr's seat. These practices predate the emergence of Sikhism and it is quite clear where the idea of having the granth as spiritual master in absense of a living teacher comes from. The institution of the guru granth comes from there. When the last master of the 10 Guru line disappeared the granth (or granths) filled in the place of the living teacher that is necessary for the initiation ritual called pahul (also an Ismaili practice). The quote you have given is interesting because it places the question of spiritual hierarchy, namely who was the Satiguru of Baba Nanak Shah (ra). Most Sikhs will reply by using a pretty vague reply such as "Waheguroo". It is vague because it doesn't define which aspect of Divinity. If Baba Nanak Shah (ra) was initiated by the Divine itself during his personal heavenly journey, this implies that the Divine initiated him in his manifest or saguna aspect. Interesting question though. kind regards Bahadur Ali Shah

No it isn't the first time actually...

"Sadly, later Sikh migrants in the 50s and 60s from India discriminated against them too, acting hostile towards the Mexican wives of the Sikh men who came to cook langar, even suggesting that the women would poison the community. Similarly, the Punjabi Muslims (who later began to refer to themselves as Spanish-Pakistanis) were not overjoyed either when newer immigrants insisted that men and women worship separately in the mosques." Sounds familiar for some reason, probably why I am not surprised...

Be name Khoda I believe the thread has now completely degenerated. The initial post was a link to the video about Imam Hussain (as) and the tragedy of Karbala. It then degenerated into a vicious attack against the Prince of Martyrs (as) by one of the posters claiming that he had it coming. The thread then moved on to a semi-decent discussion on divine law where it has been made obvious that the Sikh participants showed me that: a. they had no clue about Islamic jurisprudence b. Sikhism does not have a divinely revealed law despite its claims to be both spiritual and political thus undermining that very claim. The personal issue between members of this forum, the cheap insults and the unnecessary personal attacks have no relation to Imam Hussain (as) nor the discussion about divine law. As for Shaheediyan's statement about working with homosexuals I have never worked with any so far though I have known homosexuals when studying at university and have avoided their company. I can even say that I had problems because of that that but then again I was created to please Allah (swt) not to give into human moral fashions that change constantly. Between the blatant ignorance and caricature representation of Islamic jurisprudence of some members,the use of Sunni sources thinking to make a point by others, the persistent childish personal attacks of others to the rude boyish challenges to fight of yet others, I fail to see anything substantively worth debating. I shall come back when there is a real debate. kind regards Bahadur Ali Shah

Be name Khoda As much as I may appreciate people reading my friend's work I have express a strong warning against any misinterpretation of his thought. There is no doubt that Hojjat-ol Islam-ol Muslimîn Shaikh 'Abdul Hahkeem Carney was very respectful of the great religious traditions of India especially Tibetan Buddhism.He was greatly appreciative of Baba Nanak Shah's (ra) inspired poetry. Nevertheless I would hate to see his articles and thoughts being used by some in the name of some wishy washy "all is one" sort of perspective. The Shaikh did not believe modern Sikhism to have anything to do with Baba Nanak Shah (ra) whom he consider a Muslim dervish. He had in Baba Nanak Shah's (ra) poems precise elements of batini Shi'a thought only to be found in the Ismaili ginans and Persian Sufi-Shi'a literature. The fact that Baba Nanak Shah (ra) is mentioned in the ginans left no doubt for that Baba Nanak Shah (ra) was a Muslim. As a member of the Shi'ite clergy he believed in dialogue for sure with authentic religious traditions but of a reductive kind. Religions are not the same and yes he consider Shi'ism to be the pinnacle of humanity's spiritual development. If anything he wished Sikhs to realize their Islamic roots and reintegrate their place within Islam. To deform his thought in the name of some"all religions are one" perspective would indeed be a gross caricature. please recite surah al fatiha for his soul kind regards Bahadur Ali Shah

Be name Khoda Xylitol wrote: Thanks for sharing your pantheistic beliefs. Now, according to Xylitol, God's presence is measurable. The Qur'an makes it very clear that men and women, though different are equal in Allah (swt)'s eyes. Differences in shari'a between genders you are relating to deal with the witness issue for inheritance cases as well as the part of the inheritance. Supposing a man dies and he has a son and a daughter, the son will receive two thirds and the girl just one third.What you don't want to see is that the son will be the head of a family and has to spend money for: - the upkeep of his family. A Muslim man is obliged to provide for his wife even if she is richer than him - the dowry for his wife - and other expenses The girl will keep her inheritance and receive her dowry when she get married. Where is the injustice here? Just because some Muslims don't apply this doesn't mean shari'a in itself is unfair. Your statement is thus yet again a proof of your ignorance in the matter. Kam1825 wrote: I agree with you on that one. Shaheediyan wrote: 1. How is the use of haram money by Khojas, Pakistani Shi'a and Sunnis a slap for me? I fail to see the point. 2. I am not sure if your personal experiences with Muslims are an argument. Everyone has anecdotes but anecdotes don't make up arguments. What you just said about Muslims could be said about anyone. I know Catholics and Jews who are open about the fact that they are anti-gay and others who think it and smile. I also know Sikhs who are anti-alcohol yet let their friends drink at their wedding. Anecdotes anecdotes...Everyone has a "I know a guy who...." story. It's a story not an argument. 3. There is not a single divinely revealed religion that doesn't consider homosexuality to be a serious sin and a crime. Judaism, Zoroastrianism, Christianity and Islam do so. Even the Dharma shastras prescribe severe punishments. Just because practicing people of these traditions don't cry or feel guilty at gay propaganda that makes heterosexuals look like fascists doesn't make these religions outdated. Rather it is permissive society that is not up to date with Allah (swt)'s injunctions on this matter. 4. I am not surprised your Sunni friends say that shari'a needs to be updated. They don't have ijtihad as Salahuddin has closed the gates of ijtihad during his reign. The only school of jurisprudence allowing ijtihad is the Shi'a which enables to update the application of the usul e fiqh with the changes in society as long as it doesn't go against the usul e fiqh themselves.There is a growing number of Sunni scholars who call for a return of ijtihad. Tariq Ramadan (Oxford) is one of them and I like his ideas, mind you he'd make a great Shi'a hehe. He has raised the important issue of the application of hudud punishments and the fact that it is most often men who get away with it because it is men who are judges. That is why it is of vital importance to establish justice in the matter and have women judges so as to create a balance which is already happening in Iran. Imam Khomeini (ra) opened up the door for female scholars and jurists and despite the opposition of teh conservative members of the clergy a growing number of women are now becoming mujtahids and judges. His own grand daughter, Zahra Eshraghi, is a leading feminist, human rights activist and member of the reformist movement. A clear sign that the Islamic Revolution of 1979 was not only aimed at resisting secular Westernisation but also male centered conservatism in the clergy. kind regards Bahadur Ali Shah

Maha Kharag Singh wrote: Very impressive...

Maha Kharag Singh wrote: Angels are holding their breath in awe, the waves about to spread on the shores stand still, the leaves floating in the wind are suspended in their journey, the Ganga itself is motionless, nay the whole universe interrupts its cosmic dance , all say in one voice: Awwwwwww that's so sweet of you Maha Kharag Singh!!!

Kam1825 wrote: Let me get it right. You argument is: Panjabi, Khoja and Sunni goons use haram money so we can do it too? Makes sense of course.

Be nam-e Khoda Tonyhp32 wrote: Your point about the loaf of bread is a pure lie. Let us suppose Singho stole the loaf of bread out of sheer fun even so he would receive a mild sentence compared to Shahji who stole 100 million. The hacking away of the fingers is only given to those guilty of theft under the following conditions: - being a mature adult of sane mind - steeling out of greed NOT out of necessity - steeling something of considerable value Steeling a loaf of bread would not lead to someone's fingers being chopped off. You first tried to make a whole fuss about the presence of witnesses: you were proven wrong You then tried to prove that steeling a loaf of bread would bring about a greater punishment than steeling 100 million: again you were proven wrong. If people really can rely on their own minds only there would be no need for divine messengers. Your argument is hence void.When you make a claim of miri-piri and Khalistan it implies that there is a political and judiciary system that has to be implemented. Yes you tell me it is absent. You go further and claim that people can make up their on laws based on their own reason, isn't this precisely what you would call manmat instead of following gurmat? If the Gurus were spiritual AND temporal leaders there needs to be a political system established by them only not some fallible sinners who can err. Yet you don't seem to have such a system. How do you explain the existence of: Nirankarais Radhasoamis AKJ DDT Nihangs Udasis Nirmalas Sacha Sauda Ram Rais Gulabdasis Namdharis etc etc etc each one of them with a different vision of Sikhism. The multiplicity of schools of law does NOT take away the validity of divine law. The founders of the four schools were students of Imam Jafar (as) and this is a fact. On many occasions he has reproached them the fact that they modified his teachings. The Prophet (pbuh) has been very clear before his departure when he said: I leave you the Quran and my Ahul Bayt, my Ahlul Bayt , my Ahl ul Bayt! This hadith is in both Shi'a and Sunni books who both also confirm that the Ahl ul Bayt (as) are the sons of Ali (as) and Fatimah (as). If the Sunni schools refuse to acknowledge the authentic sources of jurisprudence i.e. Quran and Ahlul Bayt (as), it does not take away the validity of shari'a. The very fact that Imam Ja'far (as) taught fiqh destroys Matheen's argument that shari'a is a latter invention.Shari'a is the law and fiqh the discipline of law as subject. It is fiqh that has known changes over time due to historical and social changes. kind regards Bahadur Ali Shah

Be nam'e Khoda I have proven that your assumptions regarding this case were completely false. The gross caricature you present shows how little you know about Islamic jurisprudence. Your assumptions about Jewish law are ridiculous. Jewish law has not changed at all. Just because it isn't implemented doesn't mean that they renounced it. Your argument about modernity simply doesn't make sense. These videos are famous and everyone knows them. You wanted to surprise me? We're talking about law here not sensational videos taken with a mobile where we don't even know what's really going on. Thank you for confirming yet again that despite your claims of Miri and Piri you have no judiciary system at all. Great! I am not chosing to believe these historical and mathematical facts. If ignorant peasants in Morocco or Pakistan still believe that Sunni tradition that's their problem and their ulemas'. The facts I presented are undisputed. As to the age of marriage being set to nine in Iran, it is a point of discussion depending on the view of marriage. Ayatollah Sanai and the reformist government set it to 13. The discussion at hand is the relation between marriage and the age of reason and physical maturity. Imam Khomeini (ra) thought that marriage does not necessarily imply intercourse and that it is better for a woman and a man to be in a fixed marriage right from the age of puberty so as to strengthen the bonds of faithfulness and avoid exterior temptations. According to his idea a girl would be married at 9 and grow up with her husband until she reaches puberty where only then intercourse would take place. Then again the Sikh Gurus themselves married at a very early age. Guru Har Rai for example was married at the age of 10. In Iran this is a rare practice as is polygamy. Your comment about Muslm women at the time of the Prophet (pbuh) remaining at home is again another lie. We have famous cases of women fighting in battle and being professionally active. As for being alone with a woman at work it's simple, I follow the sexual harassment guidelines and I leave the door open. Simple isn't it? Shaheediyan wrote: Well your statements about Rumi (ra) are in full blown contradiction with what the leading Rumi experts such as Annemarie Schimmel and Sayyid Hossein Nasr say. Rumi was a faqih as well and this is very clear from his Fihi ma fihi. There is not an ounce of proof that Shams had renounced shari'a at all and it is very clear from Rumi's writings that following shari'a is a necessity on the spiritual path. Kam1825 wrote: Here is the link to the torrent file. Enjoy. http://www.mininova.org/tor/870255

Be nam-e Khoda Tonyhp32 wrote: Tonyhp32 yet again demonstrates his utter ignorance of fiqh (Islamic jurisprudence). I fail to see what he means by "true Sharia law" when he means that only eyewitnesses can be used for a case of fraud. Fiqh works with usul e fiqh that are applied, it's their application that may know adaption to changing circumstances. The audit trail would suffice as evidence. As for Singho stealing bread: - if he is a sane mature adult - steals in full knowledge that the stolen property is not his - steals out of greed NOT out of necessity or hunger he is guilty. If he steals because of economic conditions (misery, hunger, feeding his family) a mild sentence will be given. As for "Shahji" diverting 100 million dollars he will be sentenced to having his fingers cut off. The punishments you speak of are for both genders! There is a legal difference between fornication and adultery hence why the punishment is different for both. 100 lashes is the punishment for both genders. Islamic law ordains the executioner's hand to be burdened by a quran attached to it so that the lashes have a more psychologically humiliating function rather than a physical one. Utterly false! In crimes such as adultery and fornication admission of guilt is a necessary condition for a sentence to be applied. This has been illustrated recently by the Zahra Ebrahimi case. This Iranian actresses' boyfriend filmed them whilst having sex. Somehow the file got public. The boyfriend is in prison whilst Zahra Ebrahimi escaped the sentence of 100 lashes by stating that she is not the person on the tape and that it would be another girl using makeup to look like her. You might want to take a look at Christian law before the 17th century.It draws its system from Judaic and Roman law. Adulterers, homosexuals etc were punished in accordance to Old Testament standards (which give different sentences to men and women). The recent "mild" aspect of Christianity is the result of the Church's tactical retreat from the legal sphere. Your anecdotal reference to "nice Christian" people is not an argument. Nice people exist everywhere. Again wrong. There is the famous case of Jassa Singh Ramgharia accused of kurimar and later on reintegrated in the Sikh community. In the sentence "he likelihood is that the Panj Pyare would refuse to hear them as their crime is for the state to prosecute" likelihood? Does it mean you don't know? How would a citizen in Sikh state be able to live based on "likelihood"? Is it to the secular state to prosecute them? What happened to "Raj Karega Khalsa" and "Miri/Piri". Sikhism in its modern form emphasizes on the union of spiritual and political power. In a Sikh state which you and your brother wish to bring into existence this principle should be applied. The question is: what judiciary would that state have? based on which divinely revealed laws? I have seen it myself in Tehran. The girl or boy (yes guys as well) get stopped and get told to dress modestly with no major consequence. Only rarely does the police intervene to please some radicals from time to time. And even so all you'll get is sermon by some police officer. One of my friend's sister went through that. The imposition of hijab for both men and women is one of the points of discussion among faqihs as theoretically speaking there is no justification for imposing it. Nevertheless the imposition of hijab was done for social and cultural reasons. Talibans beating up women who don't wear chadri or people who don't pray concerns me as much as Khalistanis shooting Sikh female school teachers in the head for wearing a bindi or a sari. Barbarity has no religion. Matheen wrote: Jafari fiqh was established well before the rise of the Safavids and its history is well documented and it clear that it was established during the life time of our Imams (as). Your point is hence void. Aisha was 19-20 when she married the Prophet (pbuh) not 9, which is based on a weak hadith in Sunni books. Aisha's sister was 10 years older than her and died 100 yo il the year 73 of hijra. This means that in the year of hijra Aisha was 17. She married the Prophet (pbuh) on the 2nd year of hijra which means she was 19-20. She also participated in the battles against the Mekkans where only those above 15 yo were allowed to fight. Yes tonyhp32 , Islam deals with reality and the reality is that most people are weak. The mixing of people of opposed genders who are unrelated is seen as having the potential of bringing about sins of adultery, fornication or rape. As usual your assumption that four witnesses are necessary to prove rape is false. Other proofs such as DNA tests or other forms of proof would be used. Some countries nevertheless it is true have not harmonized their legal system on that question. But then again the issue of rape victims and the law exists on non-Muslim countries as well. The punishment for rape is death. Most Shi'a faqih will agree that physical proof is sufficient. The use of witnesses of limited to adultery and fornication cases. shaheediyan wrote: Islam is a complete system with an esoteric and an exoteric aspect. Jallaluddin Rumi (ra) was a great mystic but also a great Islamic judge and specialist of jurisprudence. Islam emphasizes the harmony between bothe aspects. Kam1825 wrote: Indian religions is still my field... You are mixing mythology and law. Indian religions have the dharma shastras to decide such matters. The dharma shastras punish the adulterous woman (not the man) with being eaten alive by dogs or having her nose chopped off.The man faces exclusion from his caste unless he undergoes a purification ceremony. The sentence may be harsher depending on the caste of the offenders. Even Rama chops the nose of Shurpanaka for trying to seduce him in the Ramayana. You are also mixing spirituality and law. Repentance of a rapist does not equal justice for the victim and society. Justice has to be administered for the crime committed. Whatever the criminal may undergo spiritually is between him/her and Allah (swt) and has no bearing on jurisprudential matters. shaheedyan wrote: The Rag Bhairo card has been played to many times... This shabad is practically identical to numerous other Sufi poems by people such as Rumi or Baba Tahir: I am neither a Muslim,a Christian, a Hindu or a Jew etc etc My true religion is love etc etc The expression of a mystical station where the spirit reaches a state of intense love is NOT a statement about socio-religious identity, especially when there are numerous precedent poems stating the same by inspired Sufis who still kept the shari'a. Mixing these two levels is a mistake. Matheen wrote: If it's shock and surprise you wanted to bring about, then I am sorry missed your point. There are numerous such fatwas and they have a context: hypothetical situations. Fiqh implies the use of ijtihad based on the usul e fiqh, these have to be applied to all kinds of situations. Very often students of fiqh are tested on improbable situations to see if they have mastered the principles of jurisprudence. Some of these improbable cases are quite X rated in content but then again you have to spice up such a dry subject like fiqh. A test situation I was showed by a cleric friend was the following: A man has intercourse with his 1st wife. She then has illegal lesbian intercourse with her co-wife and impregnates her with the sperm in her womb. It is the 2nd wife who gets pregnant. The question is: is the child legitimate or not? The untrained will only focus on the typical lesbian fantasy not paying attention to the fact that this a case where one has to look into the principles of inheritance law. After examination of the case the scholar takes a decision also called fatwa. Fatwa does not equal divine law, it is a decision NOT the principles of law themselves. The great mistake is to confuse the legal and ethical spheres. Both are related but both cannot be confused. For example divorce is allowed but is ethically not considered good. The hypothetical cases Matheen has quoted exist in most fiqh books and there is nothing to be ashamed of it as they are the equivalent of difficult and tricky mathematic exercises. As for the X rated content, I challenge you to study fiqh for more than 6 months without trying to spice your subject up. It's been a pleasure as usual gentlemen kind regards Bahadur Ali Shah Ya Maryam

Sorry I don't ... It's actually well documented. Akali Phula Singh ordered Ranjit Singh to present himself in front of the Akal Takht for having slept with a Muslim prostitite. When Ranjit Singh arrived he didn't apply the sentence which had been said to be lashes. Again proof that there is no judiciary Have you studied fiqh? fatawa are decisions taken by a faqih on the basis of usul e fiqh i.e. divine law. That's how any judiciary system works.

5 dudes and some ideas is not a judiciary system...

Shari'a says that for non-religious matters and as long as human law coincides with divine law I can go to the local police. It is allowed in shari'a for those Muslims living in a non-Muslim state Divine law implies free will on part of humans. What you are implying is extreme pre-destination which we don't believe in in the school of Ahl e Mohammad (as). For all the cases you have mentioned there are rulings based on usul e fiqh Justice does not mean undoing the past. It implies inflicting a punishment equivalent to the pain endured by the victim as well as ridding society of evils. Wahabis are Nasibis, we don't accept their rulings as they are based on false premises. Ijtihad is not unlimited and most issues have already been covered by fiqh. How is that different from a Wahabi qazi? or from a Mongol invader? There is no text of law a citizen can refer to. Where is your text of law that a citizen can refer to in a Sikh state? Where is the rule of law?

Xylitol, thanks for clarifying. All communities have their black sheep indeed. But please do try to get better informed and double check your information. Tonyhp32, adultery is a crime in all religions and the overwhelming majority of civilizations have treated it as such. If you are ok about adultery being unpunished that's up to you: God disapproves of it! If you are of those that encourage sin don't claim to believe in law! Adultery in Sikhism get punished by a bare excommunication for the sinner. What about the people whose trust he/she has broken?What about the value of being faithful in marriage? What about the bad example given to the rest of society? What about the treason to the partner? Any religious system worth its name delivers justice. Dura lex sed lex. Your religious system says that an adulterer has to take tankah before being accepted in the community again. It ranges from cleaning shoes to whatever else may go though the panj pyare's mind (what about the rule of law tonyhp32, ever heard of that concept?). This tankah does NOT bring justice to victims: it rehabilitates the sinner. He may get away with cleaning shoes for a month or washing dishes. Where is the justice? Regarding narimar (killing a woman) and kurimar (female infanticide) it's the same. A man or a woman may kill their daughter in law or kill their baby daughter and get away with a tankah. This means that in a Sikh state the Atwals would have gotten away with washing dishes, maybe two slaps. Is this justice? You say that "as for Sikh jurisprudence, Sikhs are covered by the law of the state in which they live.". This is a makeshift solution for a religious system without a divine law. When there is no law there is no justice. And where there is no justice there is no truth. You claim to "raj karega khalsa" . A raj implies divine law. Without the rule of law there is no justice because citizens depend on the will of others unchecked by law. Where is your law? The authority of a divine panchayat? That's not the rule of law, that's dictatureship because people would live under the whimsical decisions of five individuals without any legal framework. That is not what characterizes a divinely revealed religion. Man made laws cannot be a makeshift religion for a religious system that claims to be based on miri and piri. The only reason Sikh haven't paid jiziah is because of the generosity of emperors like Akbar AND because during the reign of those emperors Rajputs and other non-Muslim communties served in the army. The usul of jiziah is a tax for non-participating in the army. Matheen you talk about not living in ghulami (whatever that means). Isn't relying on man made foreign laws a form of ghulami to a non-divine authority. What happened to "the Khalsa belongs to God only"? ps. Jordan and Syria give immunity to those who commit honour killings. So what? It's still unacceptable in Islam No law no justice. No justice no truth. No truth no religion.

There is no judiciary nor any jurisprudence in Sikhism to deal with such matters.

Horrible crime indeed and one that leaves me wondering. Honour crimes are punishable in most Western and Islamic states by either heavy prison or death sentences. But what about Sikh law? The rahitname only consider it a matter of excommunication and would this crime have happened in a Sikh state they would have gotten away with it because Sikhism has no rulings on such matters... Western and Islamic law punish honour crimes but what about Sikh law? http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x362p9_si...r-killings_blog

Daniel Pipes an authority on French suburbs? Yeah right! Name me ONE French academic ONE who calls the suburbs Dar al Islam! Name me ONE French Muslim organisation that calls the suburbs Dar al Islam! And please don't reply with some quote!

I have learned to use quotes to sound more eloquent than I really am -Matheen http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/arti...in_page_id=1770 Ouch!!!

Well I lived in Paris for 5 years and taught in the suburbs and I can tell you this: you are a liar. You're a liar when you say that you don't hate Islam and Muslim yet spread these lies about the events there. The problems of the suburbs concern ALL communities not just the Muslims (my kids didn't even know who Fatimah (as) was so much for being "Muslims"). Come live here speak the language, work with the people here, talk to the police, teachers and families like I did, maybe then you can open your mouth about France!

Great academic contribution tonyhp32!!! Thank you!