drawrof

liono, your intentions are not full of malice, hence I suggest this..lets change the paradigm. Let us show the world that what they are worshipping, we are the epitome of.... one of the sampardayee uthanka (context) of anand sahib state that GANESH came to guru amardas ji's darbar and wanted him to instal a statue of himself so that he could be worshipped. Guru Amardasji turned around and said, die and take birth in my house as my grandson. Guru Amardasji CLEARLY made the point to ganesh that his dharamsala's worship AKAAL and ONLY AKAAL (you can say waheguru, niranjan, allah)...all are attributes of the formless. So here's the strategy....when you see an old picture or messed up logic which is not correct, turn it around and say...look your gods are worshipping guru nanak...as guru nanak is believed to be gur-avtar (according to nirmala traditions)...and that is much more eminent than any other appelation given to any other type of avtar. my advice to the cyber sangat is this.... correct people where they may be misinformed, but let it be more from sound knowledge and less from emotion. I'll give an example that happened to me yesterday: I am still in university and tie a "different" style dastar. It is a siddhi dastar and resembles the dastaars worn by kings and sikhs in the early 1800's..(easier on my ears). Now, the gentleman who attends the parking lot is an african man. He said "salaam waalay kum"... I had a slightly shocked look on my face, but I did reply back with "waalay kum salaam" (thinking that I don't want to hurt his sentiment); he said "you're not muslim?"..and then he said "your sikh". I smiled. He said Namaste!, I smiled and said.. actually its "sat sri akaal" (I was contemplating whether I should say fateh, but thought..he is probably more accustomed to hearing that). He gladly repeated it, 2 times ...and he was smiling. Now, I learned that he was ethiopian and that it was the only country not conquered by the british. he said "sikhs were in army, they came and settled". I said "yes, that is definitely true". We started discussing colonialism and his friend said "white man come, teach us, we better". I said, "yes, but you have been programmed to believe that you are a lesser human and gladly forfeit your traditions to be more acceptable to them". our guru's said shower/bathe daily 400 years before the uk and north america adopted daily baths...Due respect is given to the british for actually perserving and archiving history, and, in all honesty, kudo's for them taking over half the world....everyone seems to fallen slaves to them in the process..now it is our part to get the imperialist mindset out of our minds

I was there! (my name is harminder singh, and everyone knows me as harry). Udasi's were brought forth, it was the same picture that you see on sarabloh.info (the bald looking one, black and white). Kulbir singh said "go back"...and paramjit singh did. At that point, kulbir singh said "how can they be sikhs, they brought idols into darbar sahib" (I am paraphrasing). Paramjit said "ah yes, but those were never IN darbar sahib. They were on the parkarma. He further discussed boongay (which were learning institutes and mentioned how at one point there were 92 around the parkarma. He further stated that not all boongay had idols. Then paramjit singh gave a very interesting scenario. He said something to the degree of "idols were never allowed within darbar sahib, but those people who would come to the boongay because they DID idol worship, would hear kirtan and more times than not the kirtan would say "don't worship idols". He CLEARLY said "I don't worship idols and I am not advocating it". He was merely discussing how pictures indicate that sikhism was very inclusive and not only reserved under one narrow definition. Now, before you think I'm a cronie who doesn't think for himself (which is what most people do anyway), I think it would be pertitent to actually do a study and see when the boongay FIRST started at darbar sahib, then, see whether baba sri chand had a boonga and whether they had statues as well. if you have any other questions, feel free to ask me. I was there, and that in itself qualifies me to give a valid response. ALSO, pictures and artifacts are used by historians when doing PHD's and other research in history. By discreditng questionable facts and focusing simply on ideology (which at MOST, should be there to shed light on the questionable facts when relating them) you are discrediting a whole methodology of research! btw, I am writing here because of censorship issues elsewhere....if someone would like to take the liberty and send this to another forum, I don't mind as I have no desire to get caught in "sangat" games.

liono, your astuteness should be commended as it is sikhs such as yourself who will keep the ignorant masses from unknowingly recessing into mundane nothingness. Where I do disagree is the approach. We, as a community, have hardships but we never have accepted victimization. Sanyaas for us is done actively in our grist...so we don't cower away from the world. Our "chardeekallah" ethos resonates with kirat karna....which I interpret as "be proactive". Artistically we can't ban something because we don't understand the ideology. If you look at early the early sateeks of guru granth sahib ji, it was ladened with metaphors of gods worshipping guru nanak.....(think of the beauty, think of the outreach, think of the inclusiveness). I am not sure when brahma, krishna, or shiva were born...but we all know that the world knows of guru nanak and people were around to see him. These days RSS have this Sh!t paintings, and can't agree on anything except economically mobilizing all of india under one fascist banner and...."don't kill cows". My question is, why don't we do the same? why can't we take pictures and have everyone showing due reverence to guru nanak....it certainly worked in raising the eminence of sikhi in earlier centuries. Further, to much distaste, sikhi is falling into the same Lowest common denominator mode of religion that hinduism is. 1) we chose to play victim...when we are just lazy and don't actively do prachar (great sikhs like jarnail singh bhindrawala and gurbachan singh bhindrawala brought many into the sikh fold). On that note, our prachar is becoming very exclusive....I am amritdhari, but I am against "Pressing" it upon others. If l live my life like a gursikh, then with guruji's grace others maybe inspired too. 2) we worry more about rehits and kurehits than we do about waheguru. (note: I have heard "rehit pyaree mujhko, sikh pyaara nahi"....many many times, and that one line does not justify a complete paradigm! if I am wrong, In due time, my ignorance will be removed). I believe that discovering rehit and tradition from a historical and heritage perspective is enriching because we bring life to things in doing so. These days, people just like the idea of complicating SARGUN....when getting to nirgun is the complicated part...... I don't know about anyone else's understanding, but to use a dichotomous example, I believe that nirankar became nirgun and from that sargun emmanated....this is hukam....our bit is to move from sargun back into nirgun....by bringing god into empty rituals, by bringing god into anything and everything remotely related to sikhi...we are adopting a very dangerous and potentially elitist mindset. I can argue that we are not under "hukam" in doing that...or at least in attempting to try that. This type of idiocy can be seen these days in ideological differences, a day will come where People will say stuff like "my pagh material has more god than that "manmukhs" suit".....(I know my example is far fetched, but you do see stuff like this happening). We are looking for god manifested in the tangible moreso than communally (at a global level) in people's hearts. 3) mcleod said sikhism is a "syncretic" religion...combing hinduism and islam...his point being that we are not unique. Well, I have a solution! lets not play into anything (As our appearance makes us unique...you can't hide from that), and start making inroads into the world around us. Let us all strive to be active members of our communities so we bring guru nanak's seva-bhaav into humanity at large; sure, we may be an eon away from getting good media press, but if we start living sikhi (getting in touch with our primal source, and letting that source guide us through or various modalities to cultivate positive impressions....in people's hearts) Waheguru ji ka khalsa, waheguru ji ki fateh

gurufateh singho, I have 2 katha's by jathedar santa singh in audio, I'll get neo to put it on...(that vahabee).

this is the thing right.... god is creative, so the execution of the hukam is bound to the element creating it. A brahmgyani dies in body...not in spirit...hence they are with god...not god;

this is a state of absolute submission where one is under the hukam of god because one can never be god, but they can be part of the phenomenon without duality. could u explain what u mean by this further please. ji, the context I meant the above phrase is in that many people who look at others as "brahmgyani's"...see them as above or equal to god; in that they are god and have that "shaktee". I can agree that as a sevak/shardalu/abhyaasi one has that sharda in their view towards the "brahmgyani"...but I believe guruji is stating here that even the brahmgyani is under the hukam of god...one can never be god (in the sense that they make the primal force a mini corporation where they are the pradhaan mantree)...yet they can be part of the phenomenon of nirankar without the duality/dubidha that they are anything except a part of that god. I hope I haven't confused the situation more

vaheguru ji ka khalsa, vaheguru ji ki fateh! today's presentation is based on a veechar session attended by cybersingh, n3o , and myself. we discussed brahmgyani aapi nirankar.... first I'll mention our sources. we used the steek by dera sato gali to get the uthanka..and the historical context, as well as the historio-cultural aspect of the shabad. We also used bhai veer singh to get a linguistic and spiritual context of the shabad. our methodology 1) look at the rahao tuk of sukhmani sahib 2) look at the salok 3) look at the actual pauri.... so in understanding the rahao tuk we came to understand that sukhmani... is the peace rooted in prem, bhagtee, and gyan which liberates us from death. This peace is attained from naam. so, in other words, the peace of this string of happiness is that happiness is the liberation gained from actualizing god's name. The salok, roughly translated, was giving the qualities of a brahmgyani. The brahmgyani is one whose mind/heart is imbued in god, eyes see god (meaning perceives god everywhere), and whose tongue..speech..mode of communicating is all god. (god being waheguru). then we looked at the paddhay (we actually looked at the whole paddh, but then focused on the couplet). "brahmgyani ka sagal akaar, brahmgyani aap nirankar" we understood this as the brahmgyani (one who sees, feels, and speaks god) is attached to the primal source, hence the world is theirs because they are above "dubidha" or duality. The brahmgyani are themselves god, god-like...in that their cultivation of awareness has brought them to the point that they are so attached to the hukam of actively being absorbed in waheguru that they became a part of waheguru...(and hence above life and death)....this is a state of absolute submission where one is under the hukam of god because one can never be god, but they can be part of the phenomenon without duality. we matched this upto...the salok, and then further the rahao...and it was concluded that one can only be a brahmgyani if they are fully absorbed in god (which one who is "nirankar"...or as the sihaari denotes; is absorbed in waheguru)and then that was matched further to the rahao...which states that the peace/elixir/the garland....the adornment is naam, which the bhagats have imbued by cultivating....this is how sukhmani sahib was strung together by us. the last line of the pauri gave us the understanding of the pauri.

Waheguru ji ka khalsa, Waheguru ji ki fateh I met jagir singh last year (december). He told me that he is the 4th generation, joga is the 5th. I have an amazing pic that I took of him with a goat that was chatka'd and skinned in front of me. waheguru ji ka khalsa, waheguru ji ki fateh

kiddhan mahapurkho, I'll answer this one tommorow (After my essay ).

when I think puratan raagi's..... I think of bhai avtar singh santa singh..delhi wallay hari singh.... shamsher singh zakhmi

Pg. 168 (raj jogi, baba sahib singh bedi….ishar singh naara) bhaeeya raam nu updesh bhaeeya ram was from amritsar and a shardalu of baba sahib singh bedi. He would come and visit baba sahib singh bedi 2 or 3 times a year. He was once making a visit to baba sahib singh bedi and was traveling through the mountains and saw a lion sleeping. Bhaeeya raam got scared and stood there thinking. The lion awoke and stood in the path. Bhaeeya raam said “premiya, I am going to go and do darshan of baba sahib singh ji bedi, let me get through or just go ahead and eat me. My only thing is that I have made him food and if you eat me, I won’t be able to get the food to himâ€. The lion stepped back and when bhaeeya ram finally reached his destination he said “you’re something else, a man eating lion was pacified by your name being saidâ€. Baba sahib singh bedi replied “waheguru’s light is in everyone. Therefore I see everyone as my own. You should see me in your atam roop, and when you do see that, you will see I am never away from you. Our bodily/human interactions are today, they may not occur tomorrow. That is the reason why we say the body is false (because it is transient). Therefore we shouldn’t have any attachment to the body. The atam jot is pure and untainted, it is the same as how fire is within wood… but you can’t see that fire until work is done to bring it out. Similarly, naam abhyaas brings forth the atam jot.†This discourse spiritually elevated bhaeeya ram.

Pg.149 (raj jogi, baba sahib singh bedi….ishar singh naara) A companion of baba sahib singh bedi, passed away and baba sahib singh bedi did ardaas for him. In that darbar, came sant bhai bhaag singh kureewaalay. Baba sahib singh bedi gave him due respect and said it has been ages since we’ve met. Bhai bhaag singh responded with the following “tuk†of gurbani. “kaat kee puthree kahaa karai bapuree khilaavan haaro jaanaiâ€. Baba sahib singh bedi heard the response and was utterly pleased. The time came near for the bhog of the death of the friend and bhai sahib singh bedi gave flour and clothes as bheta, and did a smagam. They had a deevan at 2 times. In the morning bhai mansa singh did kirtan, and at night the sevak of the deceased did katha from paaras bhaag. One day, in that katha, there was a passage which discussed the greatness of saints and their company. It was said that those saints are the beloved ones of god who keep themselves imbued in god’s love and don’t care about theirselves or what happens to them in the process. Bhai sahib singh bedi asked this sevak, bhai baloo (sevak of bhai dukh bhanjan), is there any sant of this caliber in your panth (meaning the sevapanthis). Bhai baloo said there is bhai jagta ji from noorpur. He described him as being one of great peace, he didn’t see anyone as friend or foe, didn’t see happiness or sadness, and he didn’t do praises or slandering of anyone. Mai anantee (the adopted mother of bhai sahib singh bedi) said lets call him here so that we can do his darshan. Baba sahib singh bedi said “mother, you’re very simple…a saint of this caliber shouldn’t be called here, but rather we should go and meet him; waheguru will be more pleased with thatâ€.

Pg.149 (raj jogi, baba sahib singh bedi….ishar singh naara) A companion of baba sahib singh bedi, passed away and baba sahib singh bedi did ardaas for him. In that darbar, came sant bhai bhaag singh kureewaalay. Baba sahib singh bedi gave him due respect and said it has been ages since we’ve met. Bhai bhaag singh responded with the following “tuk†of gurbani. “kaat kee puthree kahaa karai bapuree khilaavan haaro jaanaiâ€. Baba sahib singh bedi heard the response and was utterly pleased. The time came near for the bhog of the death of the friend and bhai sahib singh bedi gave flour and clothes as bheta, and did a smagam. They had a deevan at 2 times. In the morning bhai mansa singh did kirtan, and at night the sevak of the deceased did katha from paaras bhaag. One day, in that katha, there was a passage which discussed the greatness of saints and their company. It was said that those saints are the beloved ones of god who keep themselves imbued in god’s love and don’t care about theirselves or what happens to them in the process. Bhai sahib singh bedi asked this sevak, bhai baloo (sevak of bhai dukh bhanjan), is there any sant of this caliber in your panth (meaning the sevapanthis). Bhai baloo said there is bhai jagta ji from noorpur. He described him as being one of great peace, he didn’t see anyone as friend or foe, didn’t see happiness or sadness, and he didn’t do praises or slandering of anyone. Mai anantee (the adopted mother of bhai sahib singh bedi) said lets call him here so that we can do his darshan. Baba sahib singh bedi said “mother, you’re very simple…a saint of this caliber shouldn’t be called here, but rather we should go and meet him; waheguru will be more pleased with thatâ€.

Sikhi is a celebration of life. The Sikh Gurus realized that music as a spiritual medium can elevate the soul beyond mere words alone. They enshrined that celebration of life through their musical poetry (Gurbani), that appears in Sri Guru Granth Sahib. Along with outstanding poetry celebrating life and Akal Purakh, the Gurus also provided detailed musical instructions within Sri Guru Granth Sahib. Gurmat Sangit is the rich musical tradition that evolved out of a practice dating back to the time of Guru Nanak and his musician companion Baba Mardana. Subsequently the tradition developed as a result of public performances, at gatherings known as Guru-ka-Darbar, of singing Gurbani. Over the last several decades, a large majority of the Sikh community has lost touch with this aspect of their rich musical heritage. Yet with the Guru’s Grace, the practice of this divine art form is being revived by those who want to preserve the Guru's precious musical gift to humanity. Gurbani is sung in Guru-ka-Darbar according to the Rag that the Gurus felt best invoked the feelings that they wanted to convey, the wisdom they were imparting, and the experience they wanted to share. The classical instruments used from the time of the Gurus to the early parts of the 20th century in the performance of Gurmat Sangit are unique South Asian string and percussion instruments, some of them even being invented by the Gurus themselves. The Gurmat Sangit Darbar which is being held on March 12th, 2005 is a tribute to the Guru’s tradition in which spring is celebrated. In the world of Gurmat Sangit there is an enduring tradition in place, according to which it is customary to sing Raga Basant, Bahar and their variants beginning on the first day of the month of Magh, which occurs mid January, to Holla Mohalla, which occurs on March 14th according to the Nanakshahi calendar. Rag Basant invokes a feeling of freshness, energy, and revitalization. It uplifts not only people but the whole environment when sung in its many forms including: Basant Bahar, Puratan Basant, Basant Hindol, Buddha Basant and other variants. Come and be moved by the legacy that has shaped a religious tradition and nation of people for over five centuries. In addition to Kirtan performed according to proper Rag format, there will be displays set up and short presentations to help develop a greater appreciation of Gurmat Sangit. It will definitely be a unique event, one that you don’t want to miss! watch out for the poster

excellent! thanks for the responses. I find older/ancient practices very interesting, and this has broadened my knowledge on this stuff thanks niranjana . No offence was intended, and I might have jumped the gun.. I see pooja as reverence as well..so It would be more a part of my explanation than anyone elses' "btw..I'm neither pro-Jat or pro-Ramgharia, cus we all know that Khatris rule!"......what would you expect from a 'nihang'! ps. I'm glad people can discuss caste/lineage without getting their kacheray in a twist

one thing I noted on the sarbloh.info website is that a reference was made to jat sikhs worshipping jatheray (and it explicitly said that it is against the nihang code of conduct), but what I don't understand is how in the ramgharia section the ramgharia's (as an ethnic group) are in line with snatan sikhi when they worship a diety of a sort? isn't that against nihang maryada....I thought it was only pooja of akaal? and what is the difference between respecting shaheeds and respecting your elders from your clan? Don't take me wrong, I am not emotional on this issue. I just want to understand the basis of one thing being acceptable or "in line" and the other being contrary. and just to be very clear...this issue doesn't challenge my view paradigm of the world, nor do I need acceptance etc etc...I just want unbiased facts . By the way, I haven't seen any practices related to worshipping baba vishvakarma in ramghari gurdwaras, is this only done at home? with regards to baba deep singh and the joga/jogi pir story, it makes sense...simply because baba deep singh was a sandhu. Jagmohan singh dhaliwal, in writing about shaheed bhagat singh, traced the lineage back to baba deep singh's older brother as bhagat singh was a sandhu. dharebaji, interesting...this is seen in pracheen panth prakash by rattan singh bhangu and his writings as he constantly praises "majhail sikhs". It is common knowledge that jats hold jats of their respective districts in higher esteem than those of other districts. This "ilaaqa/jilla" difference is seen within the recent issue of jathedari within the dam dami taksaal. Then again the same principle of dharebhaji is seen when people open caste based gurdwaras and are explicit about the "Caste" barrier etc. I know of cases of "jat sikh" (akj and taksalis and nihangs) who will not marry outside of their caste, and relationships with other gursikhs have been broken because of caste differences although both sides were of the same "jatha"....the same holds true for ramgharia's and khatri's as well (as they will marry amongst theirselves more readily than jats, who tend to adhere to their own values). As ideal as it would seem that everyone marry others who are "gursikh"....this would and will only be valid when people are less "fanatical" about their exclusivity of sikhi or their exclusivity of caste...both are false props for the ego. A question for narsingha, is there going to be a section on saini/labana/mazbhi sikhs as well? (don't take this as a challenge or an attack, I am asking simply out of question). Also, I must say this as well, I appreciate the fact that nihang teja singh has made his stance very very clear in terms of how he has presented the material. His research, his understanding of thought, and his effort should be commended. If anything is going to attacked/questioned...it should be his sources for facts or the facts in themselves. In the end of the day, no 2 people have ideologies that are the same....we are all bound to maya and how we've been shaped by maya gurfateh

another thing that I noted was that in the discussion of sant nirankari's. The following points were missed out; sant nirankari's believe that their satguru imparts brahmgyan upon their followers. The philosophy is that they understand nirankar first and then worship. They do not partake in pahul khanday dhaar ceremony, but they do drink charanamrit from their satguru. kartar singh bhindrawalay was a spear head in having guru granth sahib ji removed from the sant nirankari darbars. The "rumor" (unless someone has actual proof) is that baba gurbachan singh had put his foot on guru granth sahib ji. (let me be clear, this is believed by every sikh today, but I, for one, have not seen or heard of any evidence regarding this. If someone does have proof (picture, time place, credible witnesses...do share).

The radhasoami's page ends off with a picture of Taakur singh, who is an offshoot of rajinder singh from baba jaimal singh's time (I believe). There were 2 factions competing in gurcharan singh's time. Well, taakur singh was not affiliated with beas, further; he is dead now..... The affiliation with beas is definitely false, and the connection between him and kirpal singh hasn't been made clear

pheena, I bow to you!

waheguru ji ka khalsa, waheguru ji ki fateh there is a dichotomy in sikh thought these days which is paradoxical and although actions define who we are; the question is whether we are humans first or sikhs first.... This has come to mind because people who label theirselves and use affiliation to justify their identity or lack thereof; tend to limit their sphere of life's experiences to what is deemed 'appropriate' to their paradigm. Sikhi, as presented to little kids is all about humanity and being good human beings....Sikhi, as preached to an older crowd has less to do with being a good human being and more a "panthic sikh"...which in itself becomes the definition of a "good sikh". I'd like to hear the sangat's views.. be critical, I don't take things offensively. btw im moving this to the Questions & Answers Forum. If you want i can move it back, but i think it belongs there.

hey iron bangle, sorry If I have mislead you. The family friends's 'elder' was in the same class and had seen the original....it wasn't something I have seen, they have seen or have had access to. If I did have it, or if I do come across it; I would have and will definitely do the honors

waheguru ji ka khalsa, waheguru ji ki fateh, I was in ottawa, met family friends who are relatives of a lady who studied with the late sobha singh. She had shared with my family friends that the first painting sobha singh had made of guru nanak had guru nanak with a seli topi. The SGPC had to authorize it to publish it, and therefore he went back and made one with a pagri. waheguru ji ka khalsa, waheguru ji ki fateh (ps. I mentioned this to promote freedom of art and reality in expression as opposed to..."lets all wear seli topi's"...I don't want anyone getting the wrong idea).

pheena, guv has said it excellently! I'll take another stab at it though.... " when you have an existence or an absence of anything then god's "Sat" state has not been attained because existence/absence are on the same plane (2 sides of the same coin). " sat also means the "pure/real" etc etc. So, how can god be light, when the absence of that is darkness...these are relative terms used to appeal to our dualistic minds. we feel hot/cold.....happy/sad........nice/mean (polar opposites per se). Absence of one equals the other. But in the case of light and dark, some believe that the absence of light is dark....(so would that mean that if god wasn't there, it'd be darkness?). or if we qualify god as light, ...then there is darkness which becomes an advesary.....(god is nirbhau (without an advesary))....god is also "karta purakh"...meaning god is a being.....not just a state...god is an entity. guv said it better, but I am a bit scared now because I didn't see waheguru this morning...all I saw was my manmukh face in the mirror and then I realised that I had company with ku-sangat so I need to get pesh. I did crawl backwards over a burning fire while reciting 108.51 sukhmani sahibs but I did it in less than 4.89 minutes...that extra .02 minutes is an example of how kalyug's power is over me and I am a sinner and (although my rehit kicks ass!)....all the puratan singhs used to do 109.21 (to the 4th exponent) panj granthi's in one breath because they were so chardeekallah and being so chardeekallah in a chardekallah way makes me a chardeekallah pappi who isn't so chardeekallah.

as discussed earlier at the first chat session. I have no dreams of being an RSS agent or anything, but I think its unfair that because I live in canada (although I was born in the uk), that I can not be called a "uk admin cut"....like thats kinda unfair! isn't this discrimination? what happened to ek pita, ekas ke hum baarik?.... life is frustrating at times, I feel the glass ceiling because of my country of residence, and "admin cut"...or "canadian admin cut"....just doesn't feel right!

dancing is considered bad, because more than 1/2 the people don't know how to dance....so they're jealousy arises and they think that one has to be a sinner in order for them to be the "pure" ones. otherwise that is one less "gun". now, the question arises, in pertinence to purity. if you do a padh, have you lost your sucham?