drawrof

gurfateh gurmukho, may waheguru bless your efforts. I am really looking forward to this!

tsingh, gurfateh ji, gurmukho! What is beautiful about your post is the psychology of the cyber age jagyasu that is exposed. It is the "fight/flight" system in full effect. You fight until you're blue in the face because 1) jatha/samparda... said so 2) guruji/mahapursh/bhai-ji..said so 3)U are wrong/ you don't have faith. When people are focusing on too much of what others believe "naam" or "bhagtee" is, they are creating illusions in their mind, etch them as a route and then commit "shirk" (as per our muslim bretherens philosophy). It is like akaal purakh's "nir-vair" quality. I perceive "vair" as advesary...not "enemy".. when you have an existence or an absence of anything then god's "Sat" state has not been attained because existence/absence are on the same plane (2 sides of the same coin). Getting back to the point, The spirit of the religion is being suffocated in idealizing the tangible, through which people want to gain mukti. I truly believe the only tangible that gives us mukti is the emmanation of god within creation that we perceive as a duality. Meaning, ik oangkar...once we have realised there is a point in relation through which a door to the unattainable is there and within "opening and entering" distance..our mindsets will be stuck on paths and locations to the door. Here is a common scenario, lets say I believe god is like "santa". jolly, benevolent, easy going etc....I will be using and "relying" on those qualities of god to forgive me for everything I do..because what I do is "bad", and not "god like"...so the framework for god has been created, BUT....why a framework? especially since our minds wil overemphasize and underemphasize according to what can throw us off balance. Why "Devise" a picture for something that isn't that easy to do. For all I know, I may only ever feel the more "just/strong/disclipined" elements of god in creation. so that is my 2 cents. with regards to your questions veerji, do 71394057 sukhmani sahib paats in 3 days, and the answer will come to you, but in the mean time, don't wear shoelaces...if guruji wanted them, he would have given them to us, one mahapurakh has told me that if I do 39545498028 malas of ik oangkar to nirbhau (once in the morning, and once at night...without farting), I will understand how doors are a creation of kalyug, because they are there to create duality in space.

Baba jawala singh harkowahal’s updesh about dyhaan to janak singh ji. p.199 Balee singh became amritdhari and was renamed janak singh. He would do his seva diligently and recite gurbani and do simran. Unlike others, he didn’t talk needlessly about gurmat, electing to keep in guruji’s bhaana instead. One day he overheard baba jawala singh say “one’s mind can’t be controlled or stabilized without the focusing on the guruâ€. (Meaning one should focus on their guru when meditating). From that day on, janak singh started focusing on baba jawala singh as his gurdev. Once as he was doing this, he fell to the ground, and baba jawala singh came running out of his kutya and brought janak singh back to conciousness. As he brought him to conciousness he said “don’t ever, for any reason, focus on my bodyâ€. Janak singh replied back humbly, “ I overheard you discussing that one can’t stabilize their mind unless they take their guru’s body/form into their concentration, and that is why I started doing thisâ€. At that point, baba jawala singh harkowahal gathered all the other sevaks and singhs together and gave the following updesh: “by focusing on dhyan, and going down that route alone, one will not achieve moksh (Salvation). There are 4 types that you will get to though. They are 1)salok muktee: the form (vyagtheegat) you focus on, you can get to their realm. Ie. Shivji-shivlok, brahmaji-brahmlok 2)smeep muktee: that form that you focus on, you can get close to it, but never fully become part of it 3)saroop muktee: you will become like the form that you worship, but you won’t be the form. By following these routes you are not at a stable state (atal avastha), because a time will come that no form of maya whether it be asthool (tangible, body, gun) or sooksham (astral, spiritual) will remain. All will devour. That is why guru gobind singh ji’s singh doesn’t want any of these muktee’s. These muktee’s will not allow one to dissolve into akal purakh. The following question was then asked: How does one get to that point where we become one with god? Baba jawala singh ji answered: Hey pyaray gurmukho, the shabad, which is the emanation and form of guruji’s heart, that shabad is brahm. Get absorbed in that shabad and you will find that you no longer exist and that is the way that you will get muktee. Guruji has used the following lines in gurbani to explain this…… 1)sabad gur peera, gaher gambeera, bin shabadai jag baugaanang. 2)Satgur bachan, bachan hai satgur paadhur mukat janavago 3)Etc etc (more bani was said to reinforce the point) It is for this reason that gurmat is focusing on god through shabad ( gurmat hai shabad brahm dee upaashna) because shabad has 3 forms according to wise mahapurakhs: 1)asthool: when your eyes gaze on a granth and you read those letters out loud 2)misrat: when one’s birti (focus/attention) becomes attuned to the shabad, the shabad is both suksham and asthool because the mind is made of the (tatta da sato ansh)….the sat (virtue/true/purest) form of the qualities. 3)Sukham= sookham (astral/spiritual) When the shabad abhyaas (meditation on the shabad) surpasses the consciousness(surat) of the mind, and gets absorbed in the paar baani (the celestial emanations of the primal sound)..(this is also called, naabhi di baani (sounds of the naval chakra). That baani has the ability to take the jeev’s surti (the consciousness of the being) to the pinnacle point of brahm (the point from which creation was started). For this reason, you should all focus on the shabad. (there are a few more parts to this, I will add them soon).

as wrong as this may sound to you all, but what makes you think that you understand gurbani? I am being very serious here. It seems like people take gurbani as a joke and use dhur ki baani as a lawbook more than an avenue to grow. I also see people twisting gurbani for their personal vendettas, using gurbani as an oracle via these hidden meanings in hukamnama's, reading sikhi on the max and taking it literally. My honest suggestion is this, get your hands on a "couple" of translations done by older vidhvaans. ie. bhai veer singh, giani kirpal singh, giani gurbachan singh. Then sit down and look at the shabad..first look at the uthanka (the historical context), then look at the contextualization of the words. ie..what is the rahau line?. What, I have found by doing most of this is that..when you are attached or in bairaag to god, other things don't mean anything and they are felt as evil because they become the "shreek" or as our muslim brothers/sisters say "idols" to waheguru. if one wants to understand guruji, they have to go deeper and try to understand guruji's mindset, approach to life etc. guru nanak devji was known to be a jolly fellow, do you think a jolly fellow would be THAT draconian? something to ponder.

to me when someone says they are "spiritual" they want to have an orgasm without consummating love.

gurfateh veerji, I find harbans singh doabia's translations to be subpar. I have found some of his work to have innaccuracies in translation. In terms of equating guru nanak devji to abraham, mohammed etc...you must remember that they brought down laws as ordained from god. Guru nanak's baani is more of an exhibition of love, and the poetry etc was from god...as it was a marag of the highest calibre. (my view). best of luck, if you do have certain issues that you are uncertain about, please share take care

dhan dhan, baba n30 singh 108....sadday te vee kirpa karo!

Haji Bektash once related the following story: A dervish once approached his master, Hoja Ahmad Yasawi, and asked him,"O Master! Tell me what id the meaning of Oneness?" The saint did not answer but only told the dervish to bring a big cube of sugar. After he brought it, Hoja Ahmad Yasawi asked, "What is this?" "It is sugar my master," said the dervish. Then the Hoja ordered him to break it into three pieces. The dervish did that and Ahmad Yasawi asked, "What do the shapes of these pieces look like to you?" The dervish said, "Well, this one looks like a camel, that one looks like a horse and the last one looks like a man." The saint took the pieces and ground them into power. He then asked the dervish, "What is it now?" The dervish replied, "It is sugar, may master." Hoja Ahmad Yasawi then explained, "This is Oneness. We are here today and we will be here tomorrow, no matter how our shapes change." (Kitab al-Fawa'id, Advice #3)

hello everyone, for a "proper" translation, I agree with both narsingha and niranjana (mine was strictly a personal understanding, I fully support that it doesn't qualify for a "proper" translation...) I would also suggest people read the ameer bhandaar translation, by sant kirpal singh of dera sato gali.... I have drawn GREAT inspiration from giani takur singh as well...incredibly thorough. alright everyone, take caare

very good analysis sukhi, my struggle isnt' making money or not making money, but actually keeping god in the forefront of my mind. Ie. many people live lives where they tend to be dishonest but since they have a scapegoat like a religion, a noble cause, a spiritual group...they start habitualizing their flaws and then become enslaved... on one hand they are sowing postive seeds, but on the other hand duality is created due to actions which are taking one away from being "Dharami"... cheers

dr.khalsa, please elaborate on how what krishan ji is saying is anti-sikh? First and foremost, krishan ji bhagwan predates the birth of guru nanak dev ji by thousands of years... the srimad bhagavat gita, has no stance AGAINST sikhi as it predates sikhi. If discussed in a referential or modern context, the best thing to do is actually see who, where, and how the bhagavad gita has been utilized or transliterated by sikhs. Further, anything can threaten absolutely anything, if you give it the chance to. In living as a gursikh, we are constantly fighting agianta, avidya, and our rogues ().....we are not fighting philosophies as we are gursikhs...guru nanak and our 10 patshah's clearly could because their thought, life accomplishments, state of existence, and mindset was unparamounted and we, at the end of the day, are their sikhs. The guru's showed us the path, and equipped us with what we needed to know to survive, ....it is upto us to make the use of the karams we have been given. In conclusion, baba nand singh worshipped guru granth sahib ji as great gursikhs between 1469-1708 worshipped our guru (while in their bodily forms), and baba nand singh received pratakh darshan of guru nanak devji. Does that mean that he was anti-sikh?

Very astute sukhi! very very astute!

Traditions that are Sanatan are the ancient Dharma whose virtues the Vedas sing. That [sanatan] Brahm [all pervasive God] highest God, Sarbloh, is known as king of all demigods.’ ‘Sarbloh Guru Durbar’, Vol. 2. Chapter Five, Pa.549 I just read this, very interesting passage, the annotations at the bottom of the page (#19, say Jis dey guna nu ved, snatan reet vala, athay puraatan dharma vala, kahe ke sadhay han,); (#20, oh ey bram-vyapak (aatam)- man tho door pooya athay maalik). #19, So, how I would understand that is….the one who’s virtues are of snatan traditions and old/ancient/traditional dharma, is how it (god/he/she) is addressed. #20, that (brahm) is all pervading (aatam) – is away from the mind, worshipped, and the maalik (master). This section is mentioned in the discussion of starting with Tva bal…har ki gath kauooo na jaan sakay, hari bhagat adheenee bhaavat haiâ€â€¦ I translate that as (based on annotation 10) No one can understand hari (the creators) rank/status, hari likes the bhagat’s adheengi… The rest of this stanza goes onto discuss the mahabharat. Then the next stanza starts with Reet snatan… (and I believe this is in reference to the stanza mentioned above)…what is interesting is that in annotation #9, it is said that sarabloh has become old, and sarabloh shows some attachment too). That being said, I see sarabloh’s qualities in war being discussed…the whole passage is metaphoric. ‘...Siri Sarbloh consider as Sanatan.’ ‘Sarbloh Guru Durbar’, Vol. 2. Chapter Five, Pa.196 I read this, and concur with this as all the instruments are mentioned, the sounds they make, the odes to god are mentioned, by the devtay (and many other elements of creation) and they have seen god (sri sarbloh as snatan…..) ….sri sarbloh jaanyo… in essence, they see god as “puraana paramatmaâ€â€¦ at this point, I am not going to look into this too much only because I am not doing any justice by reading one passage alone.. this is beautiful and touching. ‘From seeing angels of death [fearing death] now I see but Ram [Ramachandar/Nirankar God]. My suffering has fled and comfort taken abode [in my heart]. Those denying God [the five senses], have become noble [having acknowledged Nirankar God]. Now I have attained complete bliss. I have been cooled [mind settled] when I appreciated Gobind [God]. In the body are found innumerable troubles. Now, spontaneously in comfort, I am absorbed in God. I have recognized my true self. Now no ailment of the three fevers affects me. Now my mind has changed and become Sanatan. Now I appreciate [Truth] having died whilst alive [meaning being unaffected by temptations of the world]. Says Kabir, in comfort spontaneously be absorbed in God. I fear no one, nor am I intimidated by anyone.’ ‘Adi Guru Durbar’, Raag Gauri, Pa.326-327 Another very beautiful and touching shabad. I looked at the 3rd part of the sampardai teeka by sant kirpal singh ji, of amir bhandaar). On page 826-827, this above shabad is translated as… Intro: this shabad perpetuates the divine qualities of naam…(naam di vadaiyaee) Line 1: those who praise (do bhajan) of vaheguru, have diverted from having to face jamdoots, and instead come under the protection of (raam gan)..angels (lets just say heavenly beings..to avoid semantic issues.). Line 2: It is for this reason that their bodily pains and jam marag (deathward/ghostly path in life)’s pain is eradicated and they live in peace. Line 3: The illumination of naam (naam de prataap) has changed my enemies into my friends. (this is going to take me a while, I’ll post this up later, with a less choppy and more thorough explanation) I would like to key in on the word “snatanâ€= it is described as “aad roop, bhaav brahm saroop ho gyaâ€â€¦. Meaning that snatan is used as an analogy for the primal form, or a form of brahm…(brahma’s son is a form of brahma ….<although I do agree fully, that this is not referring to his son>). As far as the rest of the argument goes. 1) I don’t care to even argue about the term being “hinduâ€. It doesn’t mean anything to me. I am neither upset nor happy, challenged or reinforced by this term. 2) In these examples, I have discovered clearly, that the term snatan has been used as “old†and as “primal formâ€â€¦hence, I see its applicability. Its usage isn’t the issue, nor was it when I first posted. It was the “Context†in which it was used. 3) the above being said, I did not read the first quote as being “Traditions that are Sanatan are the ancient Dharma whose virtues the Vedas singâ€. But rather, the one of snatan traditions and the one of ancient dharam as being similar but separate qualities describing the same entity. Meaning old dharam and snatan reet are used in the same sentence and in conjunction, but they are not the same thing. Keep the posts coming.

narsingha, if you are going to go to the extent of saying someone is quoting out of context, then mention what the context is (according to your level of understanding, or the level of understanding that qualifies you to make the assertion that someone is quoting out of context). again, the context this individual is the way he/she understood. There is nothing wrong with it....everything is subjective.

I have been thinking lately and realised for myself (and would like to share) that nothing can shatter us so long as we have faith. This came to mind because of the way I view the 5 vikaars/bekaars (lust, anger, greed, attachment, and EGO). Well, I have observed my messed up actions as of late and realised that at times I have been lucky enough to have faith or even luckier to come across something that can reinforces faith.... wanna know my downfall, the 5 evils.... now everyone's thinking (well duh!), but the thing about it that is interesting is that I have realised that when I have faith, its been given. when I don't have faith its been taken (but by the 5 evils). example. If you were to ask me my profession or where I want to go in life, I think I'd love to make alot of money and be rich and have alot of status BUT I still want to be in god's charan, well the sad thing here is that with the life I plan for myself in my thoughts, I won't have time...( how can I, when I don't have that love right now (sad but true)). Now, when I think of all that has happened and all that I do have regardless of circumstances or even when I sit in nanaksar and feel elated that guruji's bani is piercing (in other words I feel some presence) me... I don't want anything except to be humble and do what god wants me to do. whereas normally, I am worried that "I" want to be here and "I" want this and if "I" don't worry etc etc etc (we all get the point).. in a matter of 2 minutes I have ruined my whole mindset and when I sit there and focus on god and ACCEPT that I am doing what I am doing because I have been given the priveledge and now its my turn to just make the most of it, I Realise both the input/output is in god's hand. in essence, the ego (me) obstructs my faith!!!!! lust does the same. when I lust anything, I feel my faith decreases because my faith has been compromised for lust.the feeling of faith in god goes, and hence I forget god is within me when I greed something, whether it be money, status, life, acceptance, experience, I compromise my faith. ditto when I sit silently and focus on having faith, and then keep that faith so strong that my actions, words and thoughts (especially thoughts) are grounded in that and don't veer of towards the 5. my faith remains and it remains solid. When the focus is on god, we have faith (which is neither positive or negative, but there), yet when I focus on the evils... I go in with a defeatist mentality (kinda negative eh?) I have sent this especially to you guys, because I know from our conversations that we all suffer from some point or another (its good we do, because it helps us to remember god when we have a magic moment (like me right now ). the main thing I have had a glimpse of is that faith and remembrance is our goal to take us forward and the 5 evils are the obstructions that keep coming back. We can, possibly, control or diminish these to a minor degree but our focus should be on them not compromising our faith. I apologize if anything here seems to be pushy or anything. I admit, I am pretty "fcuked"! waheguru!

Sat sri akaal to all, As you all know, I am an avid fan of bhai vir singh, and what I try to do every day is take what he has written in his experience and see if I can actually relate. Today's "Veechar" struck a chord and I felt that I should share what he had written because it may do someone else around me good as well. so, I am transliterating what was written in punjabi to english. Excuse the error in the translation, and feel free to ask me for clarification, but here it goes..... vedantists say that we are god (brahm). They say our perception of us being living creatures/beings/souls (Jeev) is an illusion. This illusion can be reduced as we attain more knowledge. (bhai veer singh disagrees on certain aspects and this is his take on the whole thinking, again its not his anti-vedantic thought process that appealed to me but rather his reasoning with vedantic philosophy as the benchmark). Bhai Veer Singh says: we (the jeev) can keep trying with all its might but it won't ever be able 100% enlightened (gyaanvaan). (he states that it is not possible). He says you can take a piece of wood and keep halving it but mathematically, the number of divisions that can be done is close to infiniti. The point here being that even the smallest unit we know of (an atom per se) can be split into sub atomic particles. Simran (active remembrance) will take our soul to the edge (kinaaray) of god's absolute realm. At that point, the infinite aspect of god (which is away from us) will take our "finite" soul and engulf it...so that we become one with it (yet the soul is still finite..interesting paradox). He goes on to explain how a drop of water on a leaf on the edge of the ocean of can be englufed in the ocean, but the leaf is still keeping it afloat ( I viewed our physical bodies as the leaf. So far as we are living, we are aware of our bodies...anything beyond life is a philosophy for us). Bhai vir singh further states: If we do meet with god or come to some sort of connection, that we should be mindful to never forget god. Even if we are enjoying spiritual bliss, we should never forget god (the source). Bhai veer singh on simran and the effects: (still continued), If we say waheguru (the mantar for remembrance is specific to each respective faith though) once and then the urge to repeat, naturally, arises; Then understand (samjo) that the simran is being accepted by god <or is beneficial>(safal), Keep remembering god with the tongue because it becomes rythmical and will start to occur by itself. Then it will become Astral (sukhsam) and will manifest itself in our thoughts. Then it will re-emerge when the soul touches the supersoul (meaning our finite soul touches god). This union is (milaap). The result will be a cold sensation in the heart/mind. And a light will appear (but don't assume that this is god, it is just an indicator). One's physical state will feel lighter and happier. The purpose of sikhi is to awaken our sleeping (mun). This is done by simran. He states that the deeper message (taleem) of guru sahib (in the form of guru granth sahib ji) states that everything manifests itself in our sub concious mind (he then use a line from gurbani to talk about what the western scientists refer to as the subconcious). He said, imagine the root of everything as god and at some point, one will see some sort of tangible evidence for it. he states that one who says they know, really don't know anything. He talks about the false "saints" who have used religion to create wealth and how they have compromised their relationship with god to attain maya. He then shares a story of a father and his 3 sons and what each of the sons did with the inheritance. son #1: wasted all the money son#2: second one buried the money son#3: invested the money and became rich He goes on to say that we should be like the 3rd son, take "NAAM" and keep using and investing it because it will be needed for us now and in the next life. One who actually invests it will understand why guru sahib said the sun is lifeless, and so is the moon (reason being that they have cultivated the procreative entity which makes everything else seem meaningless). He then states that this will happen when we SUBLIMATE our 5 vices, NOT "kill" them. Harry's view: I got a sense of god and the relationship we should have. The intimacy we should always hold with god. The way our nature should be one of constantly trying to work to make things good, and how everything around us is a tool that we learn to use along the way. In essence, if we decide how we want to learn/earn god's favor; then we are entering our own subjective reality. If we are too rigid, we won't see the truth. If we are too lax, there is no discrimination. As we try to understand our guru, we will learn to understand god...providing we have full love and faith in our guru

a "penny" for your thoughts

I wrote this 2 years ago, I hope you all enjoy it, ek oankar- there is only one that is one. (we are essentially dual in nature in everything we do. we live by our whims and tend never to be fully focused. The key here is to be as focused on whatever you are doing with full heart at every moment. Then emotions, doubt, and pain take a back seat.)in essence be single minded and relentless in any task that you are undertaking.. (so long as you use the next few points as checks and balances) sat(i)naam: god is absolute truth, hence the name is true. god is truth. through and through. we as humans tend not be. intentions and actions don't always perfectly match. what we must aim for is to be absolutely thorough. lets make sure our intentions are true. what is truth (honestly I don't have a clue)... how do we recognize truth. it is fair, universally applicable and really can't be bent regardless of how you look at it.Being honest in intention and action and thorough singleminded is a sign of a healthy mind= ek oankar+satnaam karta purakh: creative being.. meaning god is a creating being. Be creative and always positive (meaning constructive) in your every day decisions. start off with the little ones, then the big ones, then you will notice you are proactive in everything you do in life. A single minded constructive approach to life which is grounded in honest intentions and actions is a sign of a healthy mind= (ek oankar+satnaam+karta purakh) nirbhau: Without hatred. A healthy mind is that which does not use anger or negative passions as a motivator.. I usually try not to be spiteful or vengeful in this respect in applying this principal..so in essence: Avoid using negative feelings and emotions to fuel your ambitions.. nirvair: Without enemies. well we have outside and inner enemies. to be truthful it is our inner enemies (lust anger greed attachment and EGO) which causes outer enemies. These things don't come near truth because of truths objectivity. In being thorough and single minded with honest intentions and actions.. one will end up assessing the influence of these in their analysis. in essence: remember everything has its place in life and the only thing going against you is your negative mindset which is caused by negative attributes in and around you. akaal murat: The energy that is beyond time and stationary. every thing has some energy or vibe.( you seem like the type who assesses others based on your vibe etc.) everything we know will perish. so will the energy. god won't perish. in applying this to our mindset, it is a reinforcer to attain to a state of mind that doesn't change..simply meaning, fluctuating from high to low, bad to good, angelic to devlish so in essence: work to keep your mind in equipose where you will always remain in composure. (plus everything else that has been written). ajuni: not bound to cyclical events such as birth and death. A mindset that is grounded in truthful intentions and actions, which is relentless in its endeavour and creative in essence. While remaining in equipose while fighting iner and outer enemies.. will not be broken. meaning that a healthy mind avoids extremes of creative and destructive (in whims) ie. pains and pleasures (to the effect that it affects your mindset and your soul). in essence. once in equipose, stay there because you avoid having to go through traumatic extremes. saibhan(g): sustains itself: the way I understand this is this... we as organisms require some type of stimuli that is constant.. instead of finding it in temporary pains and pleasures look towards truth, lovingly, and you will find that your mind sustains itself. you will in essence be content with what you have but the key is that your mind should positively channel everything that stimulates it. ie. you can be stable in your mind, but outside forces will always challenge it. in essence, take outside forces and influences with grace so that your mind remains grounded. gurparsaad: it all happens with the grace of god. no matter what we do in life and what we endeavor to do, anything bound in truth will be attached to and energised by the ultimate truth (and its grace). in essence it all comes back to god. JAP: remember god. in practicality, remember god and use god as a support in maintaining a healthy mindset... and this is a prelude to the next 4 things. aad sach: the truth was there in the beginning. our mind has always been there, in that we can't define it and it somehow taps into everything around us.. there is a line in gurbani (eh man tu jot sarup hai, apna mul pashcaan) a loose translation of this is " hey mind you are a microcosm of the greater whole, "reconize!"(or in simple english, understand your role). this extends to before time. jugaad sach: truth, gods grace, god in itself, has been there since the beginning of all time in essence, the mind has always been there since the beginning of time hai bhi sach: god is true now: our mind is true now as well, that is pretty much what we are.. but we are linked to god as we speak nanak hosi bhi sach: this truth will always remain. meaning god, ultimate truth etc.... if we make ourselves truthful and live according to the tenets/qualities of god, we will live on forever!!! okay,I think I have bored you enough and probably added to the complexity of things, hopefully this stuff might come in to some use at some point. for me, it pretty much guides me have faith and god bless

I'm a guy, (just to be clear) and I know I can point out a "hot" guy...not that I'm bisexual, but more because I am aware. If you look at some of the "hottest" guys, it is has less to do with their looks, and more with the way they carry theirselves. Much of the "key" is confidence. People tend to find what they are "khich'd" towards, and then that always takes precedence. IF a guy really wants a girl, walk tall with pride, regardless of how much you like the girl....hold back a "little", then slowly start revealing yourself. Don't be fake, it won't work.

according to swami gangashweranand,the udasi samparda started from brahma’s four sons: sanak, snandan, snatan, snath kumar… Since sant kumar is the eldest he has been attributed with being the starter (aad). The main belief with this theory is that in kalyug, guru nanak has taken this responsibility and he has instructed his son baba sri chand to propogate and spread dharam…(udasi mat darpan..pages 483-486). Swami gangashweranand has traced the lineage back directly to snath kumar… the following lines from baba sri chand are indicative of this: “brahma di pothi pustak sankar sanjam bhaari. Oh (oankar that is khula )sabad guru nanak deena, snakadhik ke brahmchaari.†Sant ren, the person who guru nanak met during sacha sauda, according to max macauliffe has stated in his granth, (sri mat nanak dhig vijya) that guru nanak started the udasi sampardaya . All the old texts state that guru nanak was the guru and sri chand was a baba, with guru nanak being the guru of his son. This being said, I believe snatan is a misappropriated word as it is a mat in itself, as sikhs we believe in SIKH-mat, Gur-mat....and yes it can be puratan...dharam, in its completeness as a word (and understood by the layman as a being universal truths) encompasses the word "snatan". calling dharam or sikhi, or any mat "snatan" is like calling a vacuum cleaner a "hoover".

gurfateh, after reading bharat mat darpan...I still believe they were 2 seperate distinct groups. They may have co-existed, but I believe someone like pandit ganesha singh would have been VERY firm that they were the "leader/pritham" panth had that been the truth in its entirity

sat sri akaal ji, sikh wannabe, this is excellent, the first group that you may want to get support from is the centennial foundation. It is comprised of affluent educated sikhs who have run outreach programs to communicate with the greater community at large. It doesn't have a political agenda per se (meaning it talks about sikhism as relevent to the western world. it is comprised of both visible and non-visible sikhs with merit and effort governing alot of the decisions. pm me, and I'll give you some names of people and contact information....something serious can blow up here) regards, and I support the endeavour.

For Sikhwannabe, I'm gonna keep it simple. keep up the good work, It appears that you are working with the right intention and are very realistic in terms of what the world has to offer and where issues do arise. I agree 100% that non-visible sikhs will help more visible sikhs by opening doors, I also do believe that visible sikhs have made that contribution as well. for example, scotiabank, nortel, cibc, and newbridge all have very senior people who are visible sikhs. I believe we can all agree that looking different warrants discrimination, as someone who has recently adopted the sikh "look", I can say that I have taken more responsibility on my shoulders by actually making a point of being extra nice, more approachable, and aware of how I make others feel. I feel, for me, and everyone else, this allows everyone to grow. I am not going to say that the only way to break barriers is to adopt this route, but I will say that getting involved (Whether one be amritdhari or not) is definitely helping to bridge gaps. People will care less about how you look when you have made them feel good, or provide some sort of benefit to them. let me share a personal experience (it happened this past week). I was in a group for my final year thesis course, and we had 2 new people who joined. both were older ladies who were older caucasian ladies. They saw me with my turban and for the longest time would just sit there and stare. I was the leader of the group, and I was admittedly tardy, but I was consistent and we got our stuff put together and our report done. I would talk to them normally, cause little tension, and make them laugh....(thats my nature overall, I guess), and before they left, they asked me to pass on my resume because they know of a few openings. I found that to be excellent, I know now that the next time they see a person with a turban, the stigma attached to one being "different" will decrease, somewhat. I completely agree with the media Idea, it is something that needs to be implemented at a greater level. sikhs, as a whole should look to somehow penetrating canadian and other non-indian cultures by doing so. It will give the community strength and a voice. I am of the opinion that gurdwara's on a whole should exhibit the humanity they preach within, to the societies they respectively belong to. Ie, the mississauga gurdwara extends itself to local highschools to teach the students about the sikh traditions. A volunteer has told me that he has had the most cynical students turn around and thank him, because they understand and appreciate where that person is coming from. The world is changing, attitudes may not be, as quickly, but it will become a necessity for most companies to have diversity in their workforce (not for mere efficiency), but also for credibility in global operations. There is going to be ample room for many if they know how to market theirselves. There are harsh realities in this world, and ,truthfully, we don't excercise full control on anything, but whatever we do elect to do, lets do it with the right intention and right focus in mind. What should be done by everyone, on this forum, in their own way, is to make a positive impression in this world, however you can. smile, be nice, be seen...let society see that these sikhs (turbaned and non-turbaned...as looks are just as temporary as our lives) are contributing members of their society. let our actions be our religion, let our motivation be truthful, just, and positive in nature, and let our inspiration be that unattainable commodity (god) that has and still does constantly provide the world with exemplar role models that fight for dharam (universal truths). my opinion: everything is an inhibitor, and nothing is an inhibitor, it depends on what you are willing to endure, and how reluctant you are to accept the best alternative (ie. being an orthopedic surgeon as opposed to a urologist).

you know, with this never ending raagmala debate... I think I finally understand why we aren't focusing on less important things such as 1) the high usage of dangerous drugs by the so-called sikh youth 2) the absence of bathroom facilities at darbar sahib 3) the absence of real culture or arts within sikhi 4) the spreading of truth as opposed to gurdwara politics 5) love in general (actually thats taboo, with the way things are going, I might even get dinged for this one)

again very good questions, lets look at a couple of things first, much of what is out there is not ever readily or fully discussed. In india, even now, in villages people will still bow to maree's of old pirs, I saw a shahgird of a sufi saint named baba jawala das, and his actions were like those of sevapanthi's but he was not sikh at all. Yet, they have akhand paats at his main center in the villages "soosa, district hoshiarpur.. Now, 40 years ago, he was living, he had somewhat of a following. If tommorow, people start following his path and a disruption is caused or come commotion is caused...people will cite it, otherwise, no one cares. That is probably the same thing with many of these groups. We must remember that those accounts of history we all focus on have been projected and marketed in a way that we tend to follow the sequence it is given to us in. pandit ganesha singh's text "bharat mat darpan" discusses these and other sects. There was a time where everyone was becoming sant nirankari or radhasoami...well what happened to the niranjanias or the brahm betay's or other groups? like many groups, these groups all have their time, then money or marketing keeps them alive. Look at many modern day sants...it is almost a standard that guru gobind singh ji has given them darshan. It won't be too far fetched to see in the future that they were given direct blessing by guru sahib either. I am not saying this with any disrespect as I have drawn alot of inspiration from sants, but I am speaking in general