drawrof

hey guys, I believe the point here isnt' that a group of jatts came together and started singing boliyaan and guru sahib said "put jattan de balondhay bakray"...and changed the whole path of sikhi to reflect "jattism". Mcleod, may have, referred to the sociological/cultural source of long hair at that time. My point being that the guru's employed attributes of common folk culture and since punjab was and has been largely agricultural, it could be that long hair...which jatts took from shiva...was employed by guru sahib.... now, I am not saying that this is the case, and sikhi is a byproduct of "jatt" influence. On the contrary, I am saying that there are elements of folk culture which could be attributed to "jats per se" that have been absorbed into sikhi, either through metaphors, practice, examples..etc

narsingha, if you are referencing earlier works...chandi ki vaar etc, then there has to be a paradigm shift. if we look at the khalsa, as the warriors in satyug...where they were fighters in dusht daman's army...then there is a totally different outlook on everything.. this goes back to satyug...and the references come in both dasam guru darbar and sarbloh darbar..

narsingha, I'm glad you can do math, but lets look at the terminology that has been used by the guru's and the guru khalsa panth... I don't think your theory is valid... I personally believe that 960,000,000 is a metaphor. the fact that the terminology has been used prior to guru gobind singh ji's time, (in the first 30 years of baba sri chand's time) is indicative of it being either a religious or a widely accepted terminology. you and I both know that the kakkars, and symbols in baana go deeper into the "indian religious traditions" than is propogated... so why can't the 960,000,000 be part of a greater vocabulary that was used as opposed to being a very finite number? I have found a reference where that number has been used... and there is a significance behind that number. I am still more convinced with my logic than it being an exact number that guru sahib just chose out of thin air. its like the usage of the sarabloh baata and kirpan prior to serving degh....there is a reason for why sarabloh hsa been used...if you know, please share...otherwise I don't mind sharing

narsingha, I looked at 2 seperate explanations of aarta because I saw the term shianve crore... like most other aspects of the terminology used by guru sahib for the khalsa (kanga, karra, kachera...roots of the three), there was an ancient tradition or a dire need of the time. so I saw the term coined in an earlier work (baba sri chand's aarta), and I figured that the number of shaheed singhs would/could refer to an inifinitely large number that was already in vogue....as many things are metamorphical. the source is baba sri chand te udasi mat. writer doctor mohinder kaur.p.61

yes narsingha, shianve cror refers to the number of clouds in the sky. it is considered to be megh maala. If you would like, I can find more info....just ask what you need

I'm gonna take a stab at this one, 96,000,000- is the number of clouds which make up the "megh mala" in the sky. you see this referenced in the aarta by baba sri chand.... "shianvey kror jaakay charan pakharay|| bhaar atarah ja kee puhap kee maala||" (this is the first line of the 3rd padh of aarta). now, according to what I have learnt from nihangs both in india and abroad, this number is a reference to the number of khalsa singhs who will be wearing neela baana, tyar bar tyar, when the khalsa raj starts....(reference sau sakhi as well...If anyone is interested, I'll find you the reference ). now, I will only speak from what I have heard. When I find it, I will give the reference, but I have been told that in surya pratap granth, it is said that arrows came falling from the sky at chamkaur sahib and that it was the shaheed singhs who actually came to the rescue of the khalsa.... let me make myself clear, I am not quoting here as I am stating what someone had once told me orally. so, if I put the logic together.... I would say (and these are my thoughts) that when the khalsa raaj starts...you will see everything in ordinance to the guru...everything under the blue sky... (this will be the dawn of satyug) and.... as we all know, khalsa does not only mean "pure" but it also means "in direct order to or in direct ordinance to" in this case..it would be guru...god.... hence, WAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, WAHEGURU JI KI FATEH

easy with the temper guys, its good ke singha de chandee karakhdee!, but lets only use krodh, and ahankar in limits (like gurmukhs) when it is truly needed. the truth is we are all different and even being very similar we will differ in views. Lets focus on oankaar, and say "waheguru".

hey guys, what do you think of madhampadh singh's katha? I heard he has good katha but that certain practices preached are anti-gurmat, although he is a bit gupt

ignorance of sikh history? please elaborate.... (with sources please)

"fighting for land...must be a jatt thing"... If I recall correctly, much of the misl period was spent fighting for land....people became sardars (land owners).....oh yes, that makes sense...the buddha dal were doing it so it was okay! (lets not forget, many of the dal-panthi's were jatt too)

tsingh, thanks for making us aware of that. I thought that that could have been the case, but now I have reassurance. With all this ignorance out there, we may all, with guru ji's blessings, understand and become aware of prevailing practices so that we are imbued with tolerance. knowledge is powerful, because the extremes of it border on oneness. may waheguru keep you in chardeekallah !

p.118 baba kaan das manderawallay gurfateh ji, I thought I’d write a story about a sant/mahapursh that baba jawala singh knew. baba kaan das manderawallay has been deemed as a maha tapasvee, veet raag, pooran brahmgyani. Possessor of miracles, knower of the soul baba kaan das manderawallay had 84 siddhs gorakhs and 9 naaths coming to him (spirits). He used to always have smoke from fresh wood that was always burnt. He kept a “dhuna†between the bor and pippal tree that was outside his hut So the story goes….. The dhoona caretaker was inder singh. He forgot to do the dhoona one night and baba kaan das manderwallay got angry and said the siddhs are angry that you didn’t do the dhoona and went back. they come here for relaxation, it is one of the only places they get relaxation… The sevadars didn’t believe any of it because they never saw any siddhs. So baba kaan das ji, did a “kautakâ€. He called everyone to the dhoona at 10pm and instructed them to recite mool mantar da jaap. They attentively did the akhand jaap as they were asked and each became really absorbed. At 12 am… they started hearing noises from a mile away. It was the sound of narsingha…it was narsingha (the avtar)and company. When it got closer and closer they heard “aulakh, aulakhâ€â€¦.the whole area became peaceful, as if a great blessing had been conferred….the whole group started saying “aadesh, aadesh†(this is what yogi’s see to praise god, we see it in japji sahib as "ades tisai ades). Then all of a sudden as the voice(s) came closer they heard them veering towards the mountains… They asked baba kaan das manderwallay….why can’t we see narsingha and company… He replied “your antashkaran (man, chit, budh, ahankar) isn’t capable of seeing something of such high caliber. You guys aren’t gyaan vaan enough to actually see anything that subtle. The episode shocked the group and they realized that they lacked sharda and nimrita and love..consequently, they started doing dhoona dee seva with a lot of love and spent as much time as possible doing akhand jaap around the dhoona sat sri akaaal

p.376 Jawala singh harkowahal again…… Pyaree saadh sangat ji, gajkay fateh balao….waheguru ji ka khalsa, waheguru ji ki fateh! Here is another interesting story. Just to make myself clear. I haven’t jumped on any bandwagon. My intention is to demonstrate the toleration that saint/mahapurkh/brahmgyani...have for others. I am of the firm belief that the only way we will know something is false is when we know what is true…. Here we go, Baba jawala singh ji used to do an akhand paat with puratan maryada (discussed in the next post…but for starters….) did it with an akhand japji sahib, kumb (ghara/gharvee with water), naryal (coconut), cow ghee for ‘jot’. As per baba jawala singh ji’s own conviction and love, he would attend jor-melay at any pavitar asthaan… auspicious occasions include the following. 1) holla mahala- anandpur sahib 2) divali-darbar sahib, amritsar 3) vaisaakhi- damdama sahib, talwandi sabo 4) chet/massya at tarn taaran He would hold langar for the 48 hours or 16 pahers….. He would also give “rast/bast†of 1 day to the following nihang dals: 1) Buddha dal (96 crore…) 2) Tarna dal 3) Tarna dal-harian vela 4) Biddhi chand (baba sohan singh ji’s) This practice occurs till today in 1946, baba jawala singh attended dussehera at chamkaur sahib at gharea sahib gurdwara. He followed his usual maryada of langar and when the akhand paat ended, a premi give maharaja (satguru sri guru granth sahib ji/ sri aad guru darbar <whatever your preferred appellation>). The premi, out of sharda, then gave baba jawala singh a maala and put it around his neck. One nihang, by the name of hira singh nihang (sevadar of jathedar mangal singh <shaheedi baagh> ) got angry and started cussing baba jawala singh harkowalay. He kept cussing, and he kept getting smiles and laughter from the jawala singh in return… baba jawala singh kept remembering a few tuk’s one being “thaisa maan, thaisaa abhimaan†(excuse the spelling, guru ji maaf karray; my notes are rough) Well nihang hira singh departed to shaheedi gurdwara (I’ll get the location if anyone in the cyber sangat is interested). Baba jawala singh ji went to anandpur sahib and was summoned to shaheedi gurdwara by a sevak because nihang hira singh got sick upon arrival. He had a temperature of 105-106 for 6 days. Baba jawala singh ji went to the gurdwara promptly…upon seeing nihang hira singh he said: “quickly prepare shaheedi deghâ€â€¦the singh who prepared it recited 5 bania da paat. (the term “sukha†has been used in the text and it is said “singh, shaheedi ‘sukhay’…†Ardaas was done on the shaheedi degh with “shaana†(don’t know what that is).. it was then given to nihang hira singh by jawal singh harkowahal wallay. Everyone noticed that as each gulp of degh was taken, his temperature decreased. Hira singh saw jawala singh as he became more awake and conscience…he thanked him with a lot of sharda/nimrata. Jawala singh gave him 2 kilo’s of badaam and said heera singh roz-mara ruggra (sukha) laya karo. He also advised him to “shak†the badaam rogan Sat sri akaal

touche, sukhi_v you are 100% right, I couldn't have said it better. sikhs are to remain in chardeekallah (during kirat, naam japna, and vand shakna)! we must remember, that unless we have had a taste of love for god, how do we really know what we're missing?

waheguru ji, ji, I can say that Absolute faith in gurbani, actually understanding and being grounded in how powerful and unique gurbani is, and then reflecting on what you are in comparison may help. ie. when sitting there, remember maharaaj *guru granth sahib ji is prakaash every in the world* with a canopy above, in most places. It is the best housed "scripture" (form of guru) and people will always go and matha teyk (even if they only have an ounce of sharda). beside you have people with years of wisdom, seva, faith...so you are nothing in comparison to them (generally), and there are people out there who are making millions while you are sitting in guruji's presence...the only difference though is that something feels right.....and that complete feeling of rightness, is what brings you to guru....making money, indulging in sex, indulging in liquor, gambling, etc etc..give a quick spike or rush, but this feeling...surfaces from within. we are bound to circumstances and hukam...that is why we aren't an inch taller or 10 shades lighter/darker...etc etc....these circumstances also determine who gets to listen to gurbani and who gets to read gurbani, and who will feel it and who won't....... with that in mind......just remember that the more of yourself you submit, the quicker your vessel will open. real humility is a blessing, anyone can fake it. stay in chardeekallah ji, and welcome

interesting point. here is "one" claim I will have to refute. It was said that naamdhari's are the only people who read gurbani shudh....well, I myself have heard differences there. The satgurueh namah shabad (of sukhmani sahib) on the sangeet stream (nwss024) says "nam-ah" whereas when I was in bhaini sahib, singhs were saying "nam-eh"........so if both non-naamdhari singhs and naamdhari singhs are pronouncing things exactly the same, or of saying either of the 2 renditions...then how are only naamdhari singhs right?

Jawala Singh Harkowahal: p.237 Naamdhaari singhs in 1933, celebrated holla mahalla in a village named sandhwa in the district of jullundher. Jawala singh harkowahal went to the “jor mela†on the request of his premi bhagwan singh (a compadre of boota singh bhatraana wallay. The writer of this article observed that many people came to the dera in that celebration and many partook in the amrit sanchar ceremony. There was a sadhu/saint among the naamdhari singhs named sant sunder singh who lodged with jawala singh harkowahal wallay. Jawala singh humbly requested him to visit him at the dera in santghar on their return to sialkot. Sant sundar singh ji naamdhari and 25 of his naamdhari sanghi’s stayed at santghar. He requested jawala singh harkowahal to do a paat of “varneeâ€. Sant sundar singh was requested to stay and overlook the varnee pat. He came a year later in 1934, in the month of poh. They decided to have the varnee. They did the varnee with sukhmani sahib. Sukhmani sahib was read with a lot of prem for 2 hours, while the other 12 singhs sat in a circle and did maala’s of waheguru mantar. The 12 sat around a haman in that time. They used dhoop samagri (incense), and also placed an akhand jot (a continous lamp) with pure cow butter to light the lamp (probably a diva). They put 32 things into the dhoop. They put in khopa giri ( a coconut or coconut like fruit), almonds, dried dates, and raisins, butter of cow, desi sugar, kesar, kasthoori, cow lochan (don’t know what that is), thaj patar (don’t know), bhoj, part, incense (agar thapar dhoop), giri, long (the one put in tea), ilachi (both big and small), desi jhau, sesame seed (black and white), ….these are varnan yog (used for obescence). They used a hall in the gurdwara to do the varnee. Jawala singh was asked to do an explanation of waheguru mantar prior to them starting the varnee. They made prashaad of pure ghee (butter) and brought it in front of guru granth sahib ji. They did an ardaas for the varnee. The singh who did sukhmani sahib was sant makhan singh (most likely a naamdhari singh). They brought a kilo and quarter (sava ser) of ghee (butter) and did 2.5 hours of naam simran while sukhmani sahib was read, follows by an ardaas. 14 people would partake of the prashaad. One granthi, one pairadaar and the 12 singhs who did the varnee. This went on for 2.5 months. The singhs who did naam jap would do keshi ishnaan (wash their hair), and wear clean clothing…they would be freshly washed and were not allowed to urinate or excrete while wearing these clothes…(For sucham (cleanliness) purposes). This continued for another 2.5 months after the naamdhari singhs left and the only difference was that the sangat in the gurdwara would partake of the prashaad. Jawala singh’s bachan After 8 o clock at night, jawala singh would do prachar with with singhs (this would occur after langar). He talked about guru nanak and the path laid out by him. 1) naam japna 2) doing seva 3) doing sat sang (sangat) 4) path of love (prem marag) 5) eliminate ego, and humbly work hard and distribute your wealth in charity (vand chakna there are more subtle elements of this as well. 1) eliminating attachment to maya (maya tiag) 2) (bhaav vairaag)…I understand this as having desireless (intentions)..I will elaborate on this. 3) To think deeply about the workings of the world (to understand the transient nature of life)…(jagat nu mithya, nischay karma) 4) Develop discriminatory thinking…(vivek) More to come

ik oankar hukam sat(i) sri waheguru ji ki fateh! pyaryo, gurmukho, manmukho, sonfeeyo, amleeyo, mahapurkho! I am not going to quote gurbani or even bhai gurdas ji's varaan and even act like I have a comprehension as these are people whose life emmanated what I lack... but I will point out a "gist" that I think shoudl be pointed out.......... for all those people who have been on one bandwagon or another, and who have taken great qurbanian.....do you see the ilaahi noor on their faces...because khalsa ji....until we see gurmukh khalsay...who love their fellow human beings and can see akal de gun in EVERY human, and not just singhs/kaurs/punjabi's etc.......... a time, mindset where guru ji is realised because we "feel"/and intuitivey know god is around us......pyarayo.....until that time, we are all khulasa......don't mind me, and if you don't from your heart...you know my intention is pure. If you do mind me, it is an attestation that we are still in kalyug, and are bogged by tribalistic mentalities....... gorakh naath, gave earings as his "bhekh" guru sahib gave us all of nature and the quintessence of life.... lets live it and actually be gursikhs satnaaam sri waheguru sahib jio

when working out, you have someone to spot you. when learning, you have a teacher. when playing on a team, you have people to support you and a captain... in essence, a sant is the expression of an autonomous god....who can show us to step up our game! even a "sant" can't talk without god's hukam... so my belief is simple, if you can learn...and build virtue with someone who will reinforce your conviction and give a few tips...by all means do so.... but if you go to a sant for "just" boons...don't kid yourself, you probably aren't interested in god anyway tata

waheguru ji ka khalsa, waheguru ji ki fateh! lets cut the hypocrisy! many "innocent" people died pre and post 1984. Sure people were bought out by the "government" (etc etc..) but if you guys really have love or compassion, think of those poor young guys who sat there with images of their sisters being raped, brothers being killed....while we were out here in the west peacefully playing soccer, watching tv, (drinking...for those of you drank)...... many don't have the balls for vengeance. If these innocent elements of our past are "terrorists"...what about those sikhs in guru tegh bahadur's time who tore down mosques? what about bhai mehtaab singh (how is he a hero)? how about baba bibi chand (how is he a hero)?..... lets cut the cybermachismo! many of you don't have what it takes to do what many of the "shaheeds" did. Many of you won't ever fight for khalistan, and honestly...many of you talk way too much about that stuff.... get good jobs, focus on smiling and being a good citizen of your country and then...be intelligent and act in a way so that no one has an excuse to call you "terrorist"...just remember, with guruji's saroop, you are representing people like me as well....innocent people who may get backlashes from emotional decisions....always think of the less hearty unless you have been hurt

to answer everyone's question, and I am being honest here..... many singhs have chips on their shoulders, and if they don't have chips on their shoulders....parents of girls are always downplaying "gyani's/turbanned guys/gurdwara politics" and everything else that is discussed around alcohol, namkeen, and chicken dian latta. our society is flawed that way. We as singhs don't smile and feel the odds are against us. I look at it this way, lets say I am seen as the ugliest guy in a pack amongst most girls....the one who likes me will fall for me hard. I see enough good looking girls with "ugly" guys (ugly meaning what society thinks...not necessarily sardars). Also if you look at it, if you don't smile.....you don't socialise...you don't seem content...why would anyone want to approach you. I must be honest with everyone and admit its been a year and a half since I kept my kesh, I tie a messy dastar <naamdhari-like>(I'm working on it)....but I still see myself as who I was before...and truthfully, I don't see the turban as being much of an issue. live life, enjoy, chill out, don't expect much....too many of us have way too many flaws to be expecting the "best" out of maya . sat sri akaal (for those of you with shanka..I am amrit-dhari as well, so its not a "trim-singh" thing I am pulling).

another point to note, taksali singhs and nirmallay will probably have a better understanding of dasam granth and its background as most of their time has been and is still spent in doing research, learning, katha, etc....of all the texts.... buddha dal singhs have generally not been of the scholastic types...meaning it isn't a characteristic, not to say they don't have gems, but in times of war.....what do you think they spent most of their time doing?

the last 2 aren't in there

waheguru ji ka khalsa, waheguru ji ki fateh amrit bhaaji, I didn't catch this katha vachik's name but he is part of the nanaksar wing that views gurdev singh as the current mahapursh of nanaksar. He was from punjab and said he visited some 8+ years ago and spent something like 15 days. He must have gone their for punia. He said the current poojari-ji at that time was hazooora singh. he had also done katha and kirtan at nanak jhira for 2 days and 2 nights. I'll try to find out his name for you. He also mentioned that hari singh or hari das was beside guruji when guruji said "agya bhayee akaal kee, tabee chalayo panth...." and that it was written on a parche and a) either recorded within the copy of guru granth sahib there. kept safely by the poojari there.

hello everyone, 2 nights ago, I went out for a nice walk and I met a katha vaachik at the local gurdawara (a nanaksar tath). This katha vaachik made 2 VERY interesting point in front of the sangat. The first was that guru sahib had kept dasam granth 1 page (2 sides) purposely smaller. I asked him what he meant and he said that guru sahib meant dasam granth to be at a very respected shastar level (hence we bow). He had spent some time in hazoor sahib. The second point that was made was that ravan is the most honored bhagat in all of gurbani. He gave a quotation from guru granth sahib ji (aad) and then he gave guru gobind singh ji's veneration from dasam granth. another very interesting point that was brought up was his translation of 9 patshahi de salok. raam gayo, raavan gayo...... he said ram hasn't gone anywhere. We say raam X number of times in gurbani... ram is everywhere, he said that when sri raam chandar went to go fight ravan he had to shoot him where his amrit (from his bhagtee, which was in his naabi) was in his body. They said at the moment, god had to come...hence raaam gayo.....god had to go to and intervene, then ravan left...so it was god going to intervene, ravan left thereafter. food for thought, he might have been a bit off, but he might be completely right in some other way, I think it was worth sharing