drawrof

I meant deterministic in a general sense but deterministic when applied to caste for example would be...if you are a high caste, you were meant to be born as one and according to what has been established you DESERVE a specific treatment....

hello all, I was wondering how much we believe in determinism within sikhi?...my reason for asking this is to understand the whole concept of tradition. If traditions have been kept in tact, simply because they have been practiced from day one, then I can understand where reformers come in, to alter the current day practices....as a natural part of life is evolution. Where people are being subjected to ill treatment etc, I don't think tradition or a deterministic approach to life should ever condone or allow the condoning of people being categorized and picked upon. In sikhi, for example...there are those who look at castes, practices, rehits, traditions as something that should be carried on because "they have always been done", this mindset then elicits the "guru sahib did it, and said it...and I have to do it, ....it must be holy?"....to the supreme "taking a quote from some other context and applying it to the scenario and preaching it as gospel". I am of the firm opinion that we should do like those great people of the past...take what has been given to us and celebrate the magnificence and excellence of our traditions (which I firmly believe are grounded in virtuous traditions...even things like shastarvidiya..which is an art for those who are one with it). sat sri akal

I have a question for everyone, what maryada did baba dalel singh ji prescribe....ie, what was his routine. and what did he encourage others to do? how respected was he by other nirmalay, other sampardayee, and other sants (ie. harkowal, taksaali singhs)...etc. thanks

sat sri akal ji, hello to everyone, I may not write too often but I find that what we share on this forum is quite enriching. most of us here believe guru granth sahib to be our "primal" guru, present day guru, with no one being equivalent to that status... I am writing this with the intent of understanding and learning how other guruships have developed. I like how people on this forum prefer a more authenticated form of sikhi..where there are lineages, practices, blessings, and cultural nuances etc. so my question, quite frankly, is what lineages do modern day guru's subscribe to? ie. sant nirankari's say that baba buta singh, their first guru, was actually part of the "giani" samparda.....would that/could that be possible as I was under the impression that he joined the sikh nirankari's and was a kirtanee/patee.... the sikh nirankari's started up on their own...it was a movement started by dyaal das then you have radhasoami's who trace their lineage back to a yogi who gave naam to jaimal singh (I believe..excuse my ignorance on this one)...but what about sarwan singh? or even gurcharan singh? what about baba jagjit singh? naamdhari singh's believe that their current guruship comes DIRECTLY from guru nanak...apart from that, is there any known facts as to where their guru's may have learned santhya etc? food for thought! as a gursikh we are here to learn about and love guruji, in the process it is to our benefit to lean as much as we can about everything else...that way if come across anyone who sees guruji as "just a book", "just a movement"...etc...we can help alleviate the myths of sikhi and introduce the more deeper elements of sikhi... for amrit singh, sorry for the delayed response, the book was jeevan kirna, sant baba jawala singh ji harkowal. the publishers are chattar singh and jeevan singh in amritsar

Gurfateh ji! I am going to make it clear and simple. The attraction to sikhi (as practiced these days) is definitely not as high as when guruji was in deh-form. It has made many who are drawn to the guru's message disillusioned and put off. People want an alternative. To be very honest, with the corruption and bitterness I see, It is no wonder that you don't see the youth running to the gurdwara's etc. Simply put, we need to focus on being better gursikhs to our understanding and realise that everyone is not the same. I see people from this forum getting edgy if something doesn't fit right...you must remember sikhi isn't just about ancient rituals, nor is it about a set of new rituals to break away from the old rituals. Yes, traditions have been established, and everyone has taken their own approach based on their own histiographical view and understanding. Let people talk, let people come up with the alternative. We have far too many people who talk with a strong bias, which is not wrong or bad, but it is getting to be too much when people are being unnecessarily offensive to others. sikhi as a "mat" encompasses alot because of the diversity of the region and people it was practiced by....many external factors would have influenced different people at different times, let us work on the essence behind it all to see the beauty of the commonality that prevades everything.

ek oangkar sat gurparsaad(i) gurmukho! My thoughts: I have felt that I should contribute a bit more to this site as it is one of the only things I do regularly. I was reading a book and wanted to actually share what I read. I believe in sikh heritage and I like what this book has said... title of chapter: Jathedar Mangal singh dee shaheedi bhaageeay anandpur sahib Japji sahib is the mahamantar and mahapavitar. It has the power to help us overcome all our troubleties and obstacles. It is for this reason that mahapurkhs have had a continuous recitation of japji sahib being done alongside akhand paats. It is necessary and full of merit for us to do aarti of guru sahib....all the puratan samparda's have been doing this from day one. Nihang singhs of the buddha dal and tarna dal, and harminder sahib still read it. In the old days, they used to do it with "deevay prakash", but the akali's (modern day) stopped the usage of the deevay, but they still continue to read it. Takhat hazoor sahib and takhat patna sahib still do it, and it was stopped during my time (jawala singh harkowahal's time...as this is from his life story) at sri kesgarh sahib. the following instances of aarti being done are mentioned.... 1) raja shibnaath did guru nanak's aarti in sangladeep (I don't know what sangladeep is so please feel free to correct me). 2)in lahore, korreyay sikhs did aarti of guru sahib 3) sai daas (guruji's saandu) and bibi raamo (guruji's saali) did guru hargobind sahib's aarti in daroleee. 4) bakali das masand and his mother did guru teghbahadur ji's aartee in daakay bangalai 5) guru gobind singh's aarti was done by many...refer to a) nanak prakaash sooraj prakaash c) nanak chamatkar d) ast guru chamatkaar e) kalgeedhar chamatkaar Having pavitar jal in satguru's hajooree is a nishaanee of shudhta (purity..from my understanding). the term used was "kumbh-satiguru" has been employed.. I am not aware of its connotation or meaning. this jal has guru granth sahib ji's baani read over it, similar to how amrit jal has the panj pyaray prepare it...this jal prepared in front of guru granth sahib ji cures diseases of shardalu's. (the best part of this all....) all this information was transferred from jathedar mangal singh who told jawala singh harkowahal that all the above information was given to him by a singh of the name raam singh from sarhali kallan. This raam singh is a puratan singh from guru gobind singh's time and he amrit shakked in that time... Now my point in sharing the above story.... The timeframe of this event would have been in the early 1900's...possibly up until the 1940's sometime... now, the institution that harkowahal wallay sant was affiliated with were nirmallay. I will give exact details, as per this book, "jeevan kirna, sant baba jawala singh ji harkowahal" in a coming post. I have perused certain stories in this book to understand the thinkset and approach to life that this mahaan hastee had. he was a saadhu/sant himself, yet he talks highly about nihang singhs although they did sukha/opium etc. the respect of bhagtee was there and the criticism of a lifestyle wasn't..... If you read later and throughout the book though, There is a story of how 14 naamdhari singhs came by and everyday they did a havan...had 32 vastu's if I am correct and did sukhmani sahib paat while everyone else in the circle apart from the paati did waheguru mantar. I want to share more and will do so in the coming days..

kiddhan veer, The dhrupad gharana I believe he has links with is the DAGAR gharana. baldeep singh is learning from them as well I think,

waheguru ji ka khalsa, waheguru ji ki fateh! sorry niranjana, i haven't been to this thread in a long time. I left a question unanswered. I actually don't know bhai baldeep singh, but had the priveledge of engaging in conversation when he came to toronto during the sikh film festival. He sang in front of me, his voice was phenomenal. He had mentioned that one of my favorite shabads..."meray greh ayey, was an 18th century composition"... he also went on to mention that the rababi ustad of pratap singh (naamdhari guru's father and previous guru) was the same as one of bhai jawala singhs (the father of avtaar singh)... now, he had said that they lost out in the original renditions because of the difficulty required in extending the alaaps (or something to that degree...he sang "saaajan des vidaseeray" and showed the difference). He has even sang in front of other dhrupad gharanay and they have said that what he has been passed down has even been lost in their gharanay...(lets take everything with a pinch of salt, but overall he was fairly humble). They will be releasing a video about the sikh musical heritage at some point...excellent movie (I saw it here)...I don't know when it'll be released though. bhai baldeep singh is also an excellent tablachee, he said he would do kirtan with someone of the likes of sukhwinder pinki as an accompaniest..but all that remains to be seen, if anyone has any kirtan he has done (especially with taanti-saaj) please do share. take care

first of all, a) he was an athiest when he died....I read his last words... you apparently haven't... so don't feel you are in a position to be an authority his relatives would know more about him than a guy whose in jail with him c) those grandfathers and great grandfathers weren't there when the noose was tied...so don't pass down fairy tales I will post what I want...you can choose what you want to read

legendary sikh, I am not going to say that bhagat singh was a sikh. Yet, you should get your facts straight. Possibly try contacting kultar singh, or the sons of kulbir singh, or possibly his sister (prakaash kaur/samitra devi) and find out what really happened instead of reading what someone wrote about bhai randhir singh. Jail chittian is not an accurate description of the conversation that was had. lets get a few facts straight a) he said he cut "one ang"....nothing more was said he didn't run to meet bhai randhir singh for his so called spiritual state but because they both were opposing the british c) he didn't want to become amritdhari. Nor did he become amritdhari d) he wasn't all "that" inspired by bhai randhir singh. my question to all those people who seem to read jail chittian religiously and treat it like the absolute truth is this... why would bhai randhir singh have to dedicate (or the writer of the book, dedicate) a whole chapter to bhagat singh. In the corporate world this is called name dropping... I saw the diary that bhagat singh wrote and read it...there is no mention of bhai randhir singh, there is no mention of religion, but rather a focus on liberation for a country. If that is "shallow" or "Weak minded" how would you rate name dropping?

gurfateh to everyone, a comment was made about shaheed bhagat singh's mother being half marati. That is false! His mother was a rai from mohrawallee and I can find out the native village and "got" for you. I can say my mother would know this better than most anyone else because shaheed bhagat singh's mother was her real nani. In terms of god, his mother told my nani (who was the sister of shaheed bhagat singh) that he used to go to gurdwara at sangrad, and give a ramalla...that was common. The arya samaaji link goes back to the freedom movement of that time. Arjun singh, the grandfather of bhagat singh did "promote" arya-samaji views...the way he lived his life though is questionable. Kishan singh though pushed the mainstream sikh views in that time. (ie. weddings according to the sikh anand karaj). I guess I agree with those who say that he was an indian freedom fighter as opposed to a sikh freedom fighter.

shasterkovich, your analysis is incredibly intelligent, like you... I found that he had a definite agenda, but it didn't seem plausible enough to be religious. You might have broken the code you made the basic and sensible assumption that nijjhar isn't all that serious. He is too adamant in his absurd deductions for anyone to believe that he is right.

touching the untouched, tapping into the untapped, how conceited to think we have skimmed the water for if the touch of truth has blessed the damned, then how damned we are would be evident, eminent eminence! a running commentary of the antithesis, inflated ego using truth to justify its direction posing under truth, projecting piety, striving for perfection, yet god is just a reflection in one's own teardrop if the depths of emotions, the abyss of yearning, can awaken our inertia and make us delve into the source, the untapped, the untouched then the resentment, anger, frustrations of life are just an attestation to the shattered dreams, which bipolarly prove the existence of the source, and our aloofness to its content we merge in love, yet divide in ego, how is it that we can even pretend to be true.

Gurfateh to all, has anyone come across the terms gur and sabad...with in gurbani. generally (and I say this loosely as I don't want to get into the nitty gritty just yet) I see that people find these 2 terms to be the key to salvation. Even within gurbani, we find that sabad has saved us, and gur has blessed us.... based on knowledge, understanding, and experience...please explain your understanding of this.... (groups will take terms like sabad, and gur and make up their own naam...hence a framework for spirituality is made for people).... how does everyone else see this?

gurfateh to all, here is a scenario I have come across as of late. There is a trend by sikhs in our day and age to find the "right" meaning to gurbani. In context, I can understand the importance of this....but my fear is that people are looking for one single interpretation which is meant to be the "Crux" of guruji's message. Ie. without getting into groupism, I have been told recently that gurbani has one and only interpretation and that should be the standard..... my research in history, which is primarily from sikh sources, ie. gurbachan singh bhindrawallay, bhai veer singh etc.. indicates that gurbani has many many many meanings, although the context of certain words are finite... ie. ek means one (no matter how you look at it). my understanding and feeling is that guruji has given us a pool and the only way to sink in deeper is to try to live by and understand what gurbani is saying, and going back over and over and over to feel it. I feel this depth has encouraged by 2 forms. 1) poetry (ie. the meters used) 2) the raags. I also feel that "one" meaning or the "Correct" meaning which is limited to a consensual agreement by academics or possible mystics is limited and constrained in group ideology. please comment on what you think and feel........

Waheguru ji ka khalsa, waheguru ji ki fateh sabh thain hoee sahai friends and those of you who don't know me, I read a post earlier that made me want to share my experience. I was a vain, selfish person who wanted to always have the limelight. Time passed and all my actions became fruitless and I realised that the pain in me was mirrored by a more joyous source, How would I know paap and have guilt in me if there weren't something reflecting the goodness??? well, as time went on, I started involving myself in the gurdwara, sitting in front of guru sahib became my only source of peace. I desired to become amritdhari, but sad/bitter faces, hypocrisy, elitism made me want to capitalize on goodness instead. Yet goodness was subjective on circumstances as goodness was perceived by people based on culture and situation. I realised there was something more, I went to a bhangra competition and my cup of passion for bhangra went up to the brim. I was so high off of the performance, that I don't even remember it. I had an immediate sense of loneliness and went to the gurdwara by my house. It was at that moment that I knew that there was something more I had to do..... 4 years passed.... so much happened... life went upside down and inside out. my perception of life changed but I was still confused. the thought of god was enough to get my by although my circumstances would drive most to the bottle... well I was fortunate enough to meet some good souls. Their subtle fragrance, aura, depth of gaze made me realise that there is something more and divine. I started having "experiences", and I felt change... big change... I started growing my hair... (this was big because I was gurmukh in desire and action, in a "prettyboy/playboy'" body). This was the first filtering process.. those who liked me because of looks disappeared. Time went on and my relationship with the person who I thought I was going to marry was hitting the rocks. it avalanched down and I was told " I don't find you attractive".... the beauty of my state was that we were months away from being destitute, but I put things aside and dialang saroopay blessed me with a job. I ended up slipping in school, and I was put on academic probation, so I used the last semester to go to india. The week I decided I was going to go, (as my heart told me that guru ji's waiting for me) my dad finally got a job after 2.5 years. I felt the way was paved for me and I made my way to india. The experience, I got to india, and the feeling of sikhi, escaped as soon as I hit delhi. I felt like I was in some "Weird" zone. My family did what they could to get me to cut my hair as it didn't coincide with their "arya smaaji" views. But then, I made it out to rakaab ganj, and I can't explain the feeling I had. I also went to bangla sahib and cis ganj and something inside of me said that there is more... I spent time at darbar sahib and soaked in the peace, but something inside of me became unsettled. I wanted to go down south, I wanted to be in hazoor sahib. Now one would ask why hazoor sahib... I can't honestly tell anyone why. all I knew was that before going to india, I didn't think much of it. I used to think, india is india and I'm in canada; why would/should I care. Well, I went back to delhi from panjab.. and then things happened. I went to agra, I became sick, I got home, slept. talked to my dad. I found out he lost his job. I called my "Soon to be" and she blanked me. I realised that my last 2.5 years had no substance and my life had no stability upon my return to canada. my love life was shot, my economic stability was shot, my future was probationary, and I looked like sadaam hussain..lol well, things changed. I got to nander, something inside of me felt the same excitement and comfort I used to feel at weddings. The person took us to nander sahib, the takhat. I can't describe the excitement that was going on within me. I put my stuff in the "sraan" and then walked in from that side. I can't desribe the peace that I felt. I walked into the takhat and it felt like that was what I have been waiting for my whole life. I listened to rehraas sahib, and then it became dark outside but the life inside was incredible. I heard artee and a part of me was in some other world. I was so elated, I don't remember what happened. I couldn't sit still because it felt like something inside of me had to go and find something. I went to the comittee people and asked about amrit sanchaar . that was my ardaas in front of guru sahib. the next day we only had 4 people and the maryada was that of 5 singhs. Well, they called us forward and 3 more popped up out of nowhere. here I was, sitting in front of maharaaj ji. with my life shattered, and the worst thing happened. I had dubidha..... but maharaaj did apaar kirpa on me and took me in. I can't describe what that area felt like, It was like that was where I belonged and that I was supposed to run into old friends there. I went to mata sahib devan gurdwara and I thought, the time is coming where this land is going to be populate like mad. There will be so much growth and the gurdwaras from the hills will be landmarks for truth. there is a feeling of promise in that area. I can't explain it. alrighty, I have been a bit disjointed in my thoughts and my apologies. I hope maharaj blesses everyone with the love I was given. mai, gur charnee chit laiyeay.

hanji, as of december 1, 2003 (in india); I became a khalsa at hazoor sahib, the actual takht. btw: what is a hazoori singh? is there anything in history, reference-wise etc, (I mean, I am proud being a singh of guru gobind singh, is there something extra special about being a hazoori singh)? thanks in advance for any info you share, on top of that, how would you define the bajjar kurehits?

Edited. Mod note: Please use PM for off topic discussion.

hello all, This thread has baffled me as well. I was told by an akj singh that I should never entertain the thought that guru nanak "didn't" meet sheikh farid because sheikh farid was a gursikh of guru nanak, and his whole basis for the argument was that they met in some spiritual realm. (the only reason I have brought up that the singh was akj was because he was heavy on doing bhagtee and had a mystical leaning). Others have said (professors et al.) that the baani was an outcome of conversations with sheikh brehm, and the only thing was that guru nanak had given his commentary on top of sheik farid ji's baani. this is where the issue arises in my mind... what is true? then the whole topic of bani being nirmol and the guru's only taking in nirmol baani/dhur ki baani enters the picture then I ask what about baba bulleh shah? what is the stance on mira bhai? is gurbani special (as in the words themselves) or is it the application which is meant to be more (my reason for asking this question was the fact that some baani is written more than once but with a few changes in words. please help to clarify thanks Harry

gurfateh everyone, I spoke with baldeep singh (grand nephew of bhai avtaar singh) he had mentioned how one of pratap singh's ustaads were also jwala singh's ustads. What ended up happening though was that in teaching, the naamdhaari's didn't do the alaaaps in their reyaaz

The 4 bajjar kurehits as I understand them are 1) do not trim or cut any hair from your body 2) do not smoke (which currently entails the misuse of any intoxicant) 3) do not eat kuttha (some say meat, some say halaaal) 4) do not indulge in extra-marital sex (which I have also seen interpreted as muslee yudh..which means having sex with prostitutes/ or raping) I was told during my amrit sanchaar that I should not do hooka, haraam, halaal, hajamat (this was at hazoor sahib).... amrit ji, or anyone else, feel free to comment

gurfateh gurmukho, I have a question for everyone here. what is the origin of the 4 bajjar kurehits? my question for asking is this....during charan pahul amrit (prior to pahul khanday taar) were there any kurehits? as a gursikh I would naturally assume that a ku-rehit would be anything that makes one manmukh in their progression to becoming a gurmukh (ie..acting with one's own egotistical intentions as opposed to willfully submitting to god). now what were the earlier bajjar kurehits, and how have we come to the consensus that the 4 kurehits we have now are the 4 worst things that a sikh can do? here is a scenario, we have singhs who will say absolutely no alcohol, no medicine with alcohol, should ever be ingested, then you have singhs who will say that it is okay medicinally to have a very small portion of alcohol in medicines, then you have singhs who say as long as one is still in their "hosh"; alcohol is permitted...... looking at it from any standpoint, the other 2 will always look wrong....the same can be said about meat, some say it is absolutely wrong in every way, others say it is okay in dire times. then others say so long as it isn't halal.... now with my logic, and of the above with gurmat and guru in mind isn't wrong, but the question comes down what makes these 4 kurehits so bad? gurfateh

Hello everyone, okay, I am going to throw another hook out to everyone! I met a person and both her grandfathers were udasi's. she had mentioned how initially they weren't keshdaari but with time took to that route... well, we had a neat discussion....for my bro's/sis's on the net who are interested in their specific interests...the dadaji was a medicant who was supposedly well renouned for his potions, and he would also give tuks of gurbani for recitation alongside the medicine. The nanaji was less into the potions and more into the bachan bilas. Now, I was talking to the granddaughter the other day and the topic of drugs came about. I realised something that actually made sense to me although others have re-iterated this before..... it is not about what is right and wrong, but more about what is beneficial/useful and detrimental/harmful..... my thinking for this is that we always judge things based on what collective society values and does not value. In essence, her grandfathers used drugs in their potions to cure...so drugs were not necessarily bad (in that situation). An udasi in hardwar had given her dad a soota and that was used for abyaas purposes, would that make the soota wrong? my honest answer is that it is personally not going to enhance or maybe even feel right for those who are already in touch with something higher (although it may not affect them...I can't speak from personal experience)...... well getting back to the topic at hand, I don't believe drugs have been condemned but the misuse and dependency on them has been challenged, what do others think?

I thank everyone for their replies, I spent some time with naamdhari's and it appears that they follow the same convention. The reason for the seperation, as I have been told, is that the mazbhi sikhs (which also includes sikhs who are of non-indian origin (ie. muslims, black, white, chinese) tend to have "dirty" habits.. and it is justified as a process where the "Dal" are less prone to catching diseases as "these sikhs" are more likely to contract diseases from their relatives at home. I have also been told that guru gobind singh kept the mazbhi's at a distance. The other justification I have had, which I don't find adequate, is that mazbhi's are actually empowered because under brahman control.... lead was put into their ears if they heard religious sermons etc, but within sikhi...they can all partake in the congregation within the gurdwaras. I would also have to state though that the "jatt" domination of gurdwara's is also a byproduct of increased wealth from Jagirdari's, old wealth, and the green revolution...as well as larger numbers of jatt people. In essence, the problem is not one of just "jattism" but more of a segregated punjabi/indian mindset that employs divide and rule to gain control. Realistically, you have jatts/takhans/etc fighting over domination of gurdwaras based on district, got, present day social status... in essence this is masand-type personality. The preoccupation with the 4th pauri is going to extremes though, I was told by a naamdhari that his nephew, who is a prominent scholar amongst the naamdhari's is collecting old works and he is trying to prove that "sangat singh" was not a 4th pauri etc... the whole point /mission is to prove that guru gobind singh, at no time, employed mazbhi's in reputable ranks or for significant tasks among sikhs. The truth about everyone under the sikh umbrella is that casteism is still applied...whether it be beyond the conventions of indian caste...which father in the west will let his educated daughter marry a hard-working factory worker of the same "indian" caste?

waheguru ji ka khalsa, waheguru ji ki fateh! I have returned from a trip to india, and I found that there is a practice occuring within the buddha dal that doesn't make sense to me as a sikh.. The "mazbhi" sikhs are asked to stand "alag" and then they are given amrit from a different batta. My first question is... does every ablakhi drink from the same batta in the end? or is the amrit sanchar completely segregated I myself had the priveledge to have undergone the amrit sanchaar ceremony at hazoor sahib in which there were 2 lines, and, in the end, we all drank from one baata... hence the whole concept of 4 varnas becoming 1... is implemented. Now, according to the information that I received from prominent members of the buddha dal (and tarna dal in some cases)... the 4th pauri sikhs (mazbhis, sudras) are generally not allowed to eat side by side with the non-mazbhi sikhs. I was also told by a very prominent member of the buddha dal that they are designing another sarovar for the mazbhis (in that chawnee) so that they will not have to bathe with them. I would like someone from this forum to explain how this is relevant to sikhi or the practicality in the dal panth.... apparently, The sketch of the sikhs by lt. malcolm also refers to similar practices. Ie. the only time mazbhi's sat with the non-mazbhi sikhs was during the gurmatta.... I was also told of an incident, recently, where a mazbhi sikh was given a farla and was then beaten because he didn't share that he was a mazbhi. Another thing that was mentioned by a prominent member of the buddha dal was that if a mazbhi were to touch his baata, then he would put it in fire to purify it. Is it me, or am I missing something here? waheguru ji ka khalsa, waheguru ji ki fateh