HarjasDevi

The issue is about the validity of Sikh-Hindu Unity, and not merely some forum. Besides of which there are a thousand insulting idiots who are neither representative of Sikhi or Hindu Dharm, as I've said before. My challenge was for denouncing Sikh-Hindu Unity efforts by comments on this forum, and here I am told: Why blame me personally for every injustice and evil thing your minds can imagine? What did I have to do with it? Do you think I go around driving tanks in my spare time waiting to park it in some Gurdwara? You cannot forgive? Where is the offense? This is the propaganda to make Hindu religion into Hindustani politics because ignorant thugs and corrupt political leaders wanted to destroy communal harmony. But I am not guilty of some crime against you where rude and insulting speech intended to abuse my person is some representation Of Khalsa Sikhi either.

Actually, I'm brown, probably darker than you are, and not some "paleface," per your fantasies. My family are Romas and whose language roots are traceable to Punjabi hence originating from North India and related to Rajputs, Jatts, Doms and Banjaras. My ancestors fought in the wars against the Mughals. Why would I claim to be one? ਧੋਤੀ ਟਿਕਾ ਤੈ ਜਪਮਾਲੀ ਧਾਨੁ ਮਲੇਛਾਂ ਖਾਈ ॥ dhhothee ttikaa thai japamaalee dhhaan malaeshhaan khaaee || They wear their loin cloths, apply ritual frontal marks to their foreheads, and carry their rosaries, but they eat food with the Muslims. ਅੰਤਰਿ ਪੂਜਾ ਪੜਹਿ ਕਤੇਬਾ ਸੰਜਮੁ ਤੁਰਕਾ ਭਾਈ ॥ anthar poojaa parrehi kathaebaa sanjam thurakaa bhaaee || O Siblings of Destiny, you perform devotional worship indoors, but read the Islamic sacred texts, and adopt the Muslim way of life. ਛੋਡੀਲੇ ਪਾਖੰਡਾ ॥ shhoddeelae paakhanddaa || Renounce your hypocrisy! ਨਾਮਿ ਲਇਐ ਜਾਹਿ ਤਰੰਦਾ ॥੧॥ naam laeiai jaahi tharandhaa ||1|| Taking the Naam, the Name of the Lord, you shall swim across. ||1|| ~SGGS Ji ang 471 ਕਾਜੀ ਤੈ ਕਵਨ ਕਤੇਬ ਬਖਾਨੀ ॥ kaajee thai kavan kathaeb bakhaanee || O Qazi, which book have you read? ਪੜ੍ਹਤ ਗੁਨਤ ਐਸੇ ਸਭ ਮਾਰੇ ਕਿਨਹੂੰ ਖਬਰਿ ਨ ਜਾਨੀ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ parrhath gunath aisae sabh maarae kinehoon khabar n jaanee ||1|| rehaao || Such scholars and students have all died, and none of them have discovered the inner meaning. ||1||Pause|| ਸਕਤਿ ਸਨੇਹੁ ਕਰਿ ਸੁੰਨਤਿ ਕਰੀਐ ਮੈ ਨ ਬਦਉਗਾ ਭਾਈ ॥ sakath sanaehu kar sunnath kareeai mai n badhougaa bhaaee || Because of the love of woman, circumcision is done; I don't believe in it, O Siblings of Destiny. ਜਉ ਰੇ ਖੁਦਾਇ ਮੋਹਿ ਤੁਰਕੁ ਕਰੈਗਾ ਆਪਨ ਹੀ ਕਟਿ ਜਾਈ ॥੨॥ jo rae khudhaae mohi thurak karaigaa aapan hee katt jaaee ||2|| If God wished me to be a Muslim, it would be cut off by itself. ||2|| ਸੁੰਨਤਿ ਕੀਏ ਤੁਰਕੁ ਜੇ ਹੋਇਗਾ ਅਉਰਤ ਕਾ ਕਿਆ ਕਰੀਐ ॥ sunnath keeeae thurak jae hoeigaa aourath kaa kiaa kareeai || If circumcision makes one a Muslim, then what about a woman? ਅਰਧ ਸਰੀਰੀ ਨਾਰਿ ਨ ਛੋਡੈ ਤਾ ਤੇ ਹਿੰਦੂ ਹੀ ਰਹੀਐ ॥੩॥ aradhh sareeree naar n shhoddai thaa thae hindhoo hee reheeai ||3|| She is the other half of a man's body, and she does not leave him, so he remains a Hindu. ||3|| ਛਾਡਿ ਕਤੇਬ ਰਾਮੁ ਭਜੁ ਬਉਰੇ ਜੁਲਮ ਕਰਤ ਹੈ ਭਾਰੀ ॥ shhaadd kathaeb raam bhaj bourae julam karath hai bhaaree || Give up your holy books, and remember the Lord, you fool, and stop oppressing others so badly. ਕਬੀਰੈ ਪਕਰੀ ਟੇਕ ਰਾਮ ਕੀ ਤੁਰਕ ਰਹੇ ਪਚਿਹਾਰੀ ॥੪॥੮॥ kabeerai pakaree ttaek raam kee thurak rehae pachihaaree ||4||8|| Kabeer has grasped hold of the Lord's Support, and the Muslims have utterly failed. ||4||8|| ~SGGS Ji ang 477

So you're saying Jatts are Mughals-Mongols. So a Jatt is really a Thurak then? And the language of Jatts is related to Turkic and Gothic or perhaps Iranian? Jatts have closest association to Rajputs as even sharing same surnames and sometimes even pinds. I have yet to meet a Jatt with Iranian surname. So Jatts are mixed with Persian enculturated descendents of Chinese-Mongolian Uigur Huns now? I don't believe it. Muslim Uighurs, racial descendants of the Huns, showing clear Mongolian ancestry. Do Jatts even look like them, especially their genetic HAIR distribution. Err, no. Not at all. Rajputs Uighur, direct descendant of Huns, looks genetically just like Huns, but not at all like Jatts. The Uighurs, Huns, and Mughals have caucasian racial admixture which indeed is ancient. It's related to these unusual Celtic (often blonde and red-haired) mummies found in China known as Tocharians. They who fled persecutions in Western Europe, having nothing to do with any "Aryan invasions." They were a variant of Buddhist and Gnostic Christian and wrote in Brahmi script. The Tibetan Buddhists still have scriptures which their lamas recorded from meetings with these people. Gnostic Christianity was unlike modern Christianity and believed in reincarnation, devatay, etc. Bhang and objects of Shamanistic practice have been found with these mummies. So a Vedic-Buddhist religious influence exists as well as association with Tantrism. This puts them squarely into a Sanatan category per heritage and belief structure. Tocharian man with Buddhist monks in China. Tocharians intermingled with Mongolian groups. The inter-mingled groups such as Uigurs reflect strong genetic bias towards Mongolian racial types and later were converted to Islam. Whereas the Jatts resemble more strongly the Tocharian racial types. So while you may be right in general about association with people who were "Huns," there remained a racial and cultural distinction even back then. Moreover, the relationship to Tocharians is reflected in heritage of Buddhism and Tantric Kashmiri Shaivism, and Brahmi/Devanagri scripts and thus relational to Sanskrit more than any known association to Iranian or even Turkic languages. Jatts have more in common with Tocharians as an admixture geographically, genetically and even linguistically then they do with Mongol Turks, Uighurs and/or Mughal descendents of mixed race Eurasian Huns and Persians. So the Jatts are related to ancient Shaivite martial groups of Caucasian ancestry who were once rulers of India, Rajaputras and intermarried with Dravidians giving them darker skin and hair colorations which predominate but still showing the lighter caucasian racial variant. Now there are different lineages within Rajput, but Jatts relationally are a recognized offshoot of some Rajput clans and bearing Rajput surnames. The other strong correlation with Jatt-Rajput culture is actually the Khalsa of Guru Gobind Singh Ji, because so much of the martial tradition of the Khalsa is predated by Rajput customs and practices, including keeping kesas, worshipping shastars, calling as Singhs, and belief that spiritual mission in life is defending Dharama. There is even historical association with tantric practices of animal sacrifices. KAL the Bagwati who is the Sarbloh (which holds the shakti) Khadga-Khanda/Sword demanding sacrifice of chelas. She is an emanation of Chandi/Durga. And the Shakti/feminine reflection of the Divine Power of SadaShiva (unioin of opposites, male and female) the Primordial nirgun Truth-Supreme Consciousness-Bliss (Sat-Chit-Ananda). Now, recognizing that Guru Gobind Singh Ji was himself descended from Khatris, what did He say about his tribal origination in Sri Dasm Granth? He says he is from the Solar dynsaty descended from Ram of Avodhya through Luv and Kush. Why write that? Why claim that if there was no Rajput ancestry? That's the kind of lineage/heritage a Rajput clan preserves. What in this history is like Huns/Mughals/Thuraks? Just because you fight with Rajputs doesn't disprove descent from them or relationship to their traditions. There were many recognized traitors among the Rajputs who allied with and intermarried their daughters with the Mughals for land and power. There are other Rajputs who forever boycott them in marriages for that reason. Did not Khalsa Singhs also betray and fight against the Guru? Entire Rajput, and Jatt clans joined the Khalsa brotherhood. Is this not so? So how does this make them related to the Mughals?

Entire Khalsa Panth is embroiled in a debate on this subject and Dasm Granth does not have full Panthic acceptance as being bani of Tenth Master. I personally believe that it is bani. I simply do not trust the SGPC edition which is bandied before the public. For one thing independant scholars are not allowed to access the original birs and pothis relied on for it's construction. Second the 32 birs seem to have gone missing. While I do not disbelieve in Shri Dasm Granth, I simply don't believe it hasn't been altered by SGPC and Singh Sabha scholars over the preceding decades before it was presented to the public.

China has intelligence report which was exposed saying they planned to break India into 30 different states by supporting independance movements and militancies.

Now you are mixing apples and oranges. I linked China to Sikh militant groups because the weapons captured during operatin bluestar were of Chinese manufacture and because Sikh militant groups in Pakistan have been linked working with jihadi groups. And this "peaceful march" waving posters of Babbar Khalsa leaders is only promoting terrorist militancy and targeting sanatan Sikhs who do not conform to the Singh Sabha standard definition. You said they had Chamar names. What are those names if the indistinguishable Sikh names printed in the media are false? And what are your sources? Dal Khalsa? You say the media has lost interest. No it hasn't. But the Viennese government is extremely silent about the case. The current media spin by Tat Khalsas is to blame the Chamars while justifying the shooting at the same time. An illogical redundancy without any proof whatsoever.

Clear Vedic influence. The Kaaba an ancient Hindu temple dedicated to King Vikramditya who worshiped Shiva. End of story.

The King Vikramditya inscription in the Kaa'ba is the give away. Can you erase that and pretend there was no Vedic influence?

Amrit Cares It's a sword shaped like a complete linga penetrating a Chand, moon, not a tegh, kettle. It forms a trishula which according to Shaiva Sutras represents the Ida, Pingala and Shushmana nadis, central to achieving mukti. And it is worn at the Agni chakr/3rd eye.

It is a linga preserved in a yoni, anyone can clearly see that. Why were pre-Islamic Arabians worshiping Shani? Because King Ashoka conquered a region all the way up to the Arabian peninsula which is why there are Buddha statues in Afghanistan and some few remnants of sanatan religious practices in Arabia, Iran, and Pakistan. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1O6Om-5ark

Religion and language originated from the God. Hindustan was just one of the earliest civilizations to express it in a way which has been preserved to this day.

What do you call this? Jats did this, not Hindus. Denunciation of corruptions of the caste system and the establishment of langar halls, the acceptance of women, outcastes and even Muslims were reforms initiated by the Vaishnavs. Guru Nanak Dev Ji folowed in that tradition as well as incorporated the teachings from Vaishnav bhagat bani. Guru Gobind Singh Ji did not end the caste system with Khande Ki Pahul, moreover the castes of the original panj are remembered and celebrated for their unity into a brotherhood. Vaishnav and Shaiva acharyas were military Orders in the pattern of the Rajputs, admitting all castes into membership long before Guru Gobind Singh Ji was even born. What is sinful is to remain ignorant of true history preferring to believe only in propagandistic distortions and fabrications. Lots of low caste communities are leaving Sikhism for the exact same corruptions you try and blame entire Hindu society for. Whats that about? Maybe the truth is human beings fall far short of authentic spiritual principles. So why blame religion for that? Manu Smritis were given authority by the British which they never had. The British Raj did more to damage the social structure of India then any other force. Yet people continue to praise the British and blame Hinduism for every evil thing they can imagine. The British are the true authors of the modern race-based caste system and tyrannical set-up of modern Hindu society. And before them, you can thank the Mughal Raj for the exact same thing. Indian society and culture has been through hundreds of years of oppression and degradation which result in massive corruptions and flourishing of evil. Varna is determined by temperament and refers to one's livelihood, not birth or genetics or race. And that is teaching of the Vedas. Guru Nanak Panth tried to uplift the original Vedic ideal and so preserve Dharma.

They all have Sikh names which are not even verified as being correct names. Which of these names points to them being Chamar when the entire sangat recognized them as Amritdharis from Jat caste? Dal Khalsa demanded that Akal Takht and SGPC pay for high powered lawyers for the accused amritdharis. Imagine that. If this was an internal Chamar struggle, why would Dal Khalsa even care? Especially after their morcha threatening to attack sanatan dera babas while promoting Babbar Khalsa and KZF leaders. Yes, the plot thickens. But ridiculous excuses which blame the Chamars while justifying the murder are totally beneath the dignity of a civilized person, let alone a "Sikh."

No, they hear without hearing the anehad shabd because their consciousness has merged into God and they no longer rely on the physicality of the body. No one can hear or perceive the nirguna because it is limitless. Only when transcending their finite nature can the atma of a person become one with the Paramatma. But then, he is no longer a "person" he is One with the Divine God Himself. So a sant of this caliber is said to have God-consciousness and Brahmgyan. ਜਿਸ ਤੇ ਉਪਜੈ ਤਿਸ ਤੇ ਬਿਨਸੈ ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਸਚੁ ਭਰਪੂਰਿ ॥ jis thae oupajai this thae binasai ghatt ghatt sach bharapoor || We shall merge into the One from whom we came. The True One is pervading each and every heart. ਆਪੇ ਮੇਲਿ ਮਿਲਾਵਹੀ ਸਾਚੈ ਮਹਲਿ ਹਦੂਰਿ ॥੨॥ aapae mael milaavehee saachai mehal hadhoor He Himself unites us in Union with Himself; the True Mansion of His Presence is close at hand. ~SGGS Ji ang 20 ਸਚੇ ਸੇਤੀ ਰਲਿ ਮਿਲੇ ਸਚੇ ਗੁਣ ਪਰਗਾਸਿ ॥ sachae saethee ral milae sachae gun paragaas || They meet and merge with the True One. They become the Radiant Manifestation of the Excellence of the True One. ਨਾਨਕ ਨਾਮਿ ਸੰਤੋਖੀਆ ਜੀਉ ਪਿੰਡੁ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਪਾਸਿ ॥੫॥੧੬॥ naanak naam santhokheeaa jeeo pindd prabh paas O Nanak, they are contented with the Naam, the Name of the Lord. They offer their bodies and souls to God. ~SGGS Ji ang 20 ਜੋਤੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਮਿਲਾਈਐ ਸੁਰਤੀ ਸੁਰਤਿ ਸੰਜੋਗੁ ॥ jothee joth milaaeeai surathee surath sanjog || When one's light merges into the Light, and one's intuitive consciousness is joined with the Intuitive Consciousness, ਹਿੰਸਾ ਹਉਮੈ ਗਤੁ ਗਏ ਨਾਹੀ ਸਹਸਾ ਸੋਗੁ ॥ hinsaa houmai gath geae naahee sehasaa sog || then one's cruel and violent instincts and egotism depart, and skepticism and sorrow are taken away. ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਜਿਸੁ ਹਰਿ ਮਨਿ ਵਸੈ ਤਿਸੁ ਮੇਲੇ ਗੁਰੁ ਸੰਜੋਗੁ ॥੨॥ guramukh jis har man vasai this maelae gur sanjog ||2|| The Lord abides within the mind of the Gurmukh, who merges in the Lord's Union, through the Guru. ||2|| ~SGGS Ji ang 21

Really? ਖੁਰਾਸਾਨ ਖਸਮਾਨਾ ਕੀਆ ਹਿੰਦੁਸਤਾਨੁ ਡਰਾਇਆ ॥ khuraasaan khasamaanaa keeaa hindhusathaan ddaraaeiaa || Having attacked Khuraasaan, Baabar terrified Hindustan. ~SGGS Ji ang 360 Hindustan may "officially" have been created as a sovereign Nation in 1947. But Hindustan is an ancient land, with an ancient civilization which the Sikh Guru's were born into. It far predates Sikhi by several thousand years. Sanatana Dharma is the religion of the Vedas. How old are they? The Vedas far predate the Abrahamic scriptures by thousands of years. You realize that the Sikh Army was very small, and only influenced area of Punjab. Most of the later annexations occured under Maharaja Ranjit Singh as collaboration with British, but British stabbed him in the back and that was the end of Sikh kingdom. Moreover, it was Hindu custom to give the first born son to be a Sikh. So how can the Sikh Army be thought of as having no relationship to Hindus when it consisted of them? Shivaji Maharaj, ruler of Delhi conquered a far larger area than the Sikhs. This is not to diminish the glory of the Sikh Army, but realistically, the Sikhs never controlled all of India. For a brief time they were rulers of Punjab. Hindu's have been fighting off Mughal invasions for centuries, and the Sikhs were a historical part of that. But by no means were Hindus some kind of defenseless pacifists. The very martial traditions and even scriptures of the Rajputs became adopted by Guru Gobind Singh to rouse the Army of his Khalsa. The only ones twisting Sikh heritage are the Sikhs themselves who try to erase clear Sanatana Dharma taught in Guru Granth Sahib or to claim Rajput history, heritage, surname, weapons and military victories as all their own. Even gatka and shastar vidya come from the Rajputs. The fact that Guru Gobind Singh Ji adopted all these didn't mean he created something new. What He did was raise an Army from those same Hindu pinds defending the same Hindustan against the Mughal invaders. Hindu's as a religion didn't invade Harminder Sahib. Indira Gandhi did on the advice of her Sikh generals after the time of emergency when she abdicated democracy and established dictatorial powers for herself. In this same time frame, her son Sanjay who was married to a Sikh was talking about forced sterilizations and variety of other dictatorial abuses planned for entire populace. Not just Sikhs. So using Prime ministership of Indira Gandhi as reflective of Hindu Dharma is absurd. Moreover, she was married to a Muslim, Feroze Khan. And Indian government felt Sikh militancy was being manipulated and armed by enemy states such as Pakistan and China and therefore a threat to internal security. Sikh-Hindu Unity is about reconciliation on the basis of spiritual principles and shared communal heritage. Why should brother fight against brother? Exactly what would Khalistan gain? Exactly what would terrorism against the Indian state or Hindu civilians gain? Indira Gandhi is long gone. Now the Sikh militants are involved in drug and arms smuggling and Pakistani jihadi militias. What exactly have they done to help Sikhs? Do you know why Macauliffe and Dr, Peshaura Singh are resented by the Sikh community? Because they have journals and books which establish academically how Singh Sabha adulterated and distorted texts. Why don't you do independent research. Or better yet, try to academically refute it. Below is an excerpt from a Singh Sabha viewpoint. Nevertheless it offers a window into how much sanatan ideology exists in purataan Sikh historical sources. Now, the Guru's bani clearly did not reject Hindu mat. Hindu mat, the devas, the avatars are all in Gurbani, explained exactly as per the philosophical school of Vaishnav mat which challenged Braminism critically. So here is a Singh Sabha biased article and it STILL has to acknowledge that purataan historical sources of Gursikhi are filled with sanatan Mat. Now from the sanatan perspective, it is the Singh Sabha whose viewpoint is wrong in suppressing the sanatan mat which is clearly demonstrated to exist in the history. What was anti-Panthic about Gurbilas? Why the fact that it proved the purataan historay of Sikhs is sanataan. And for this reason it was "banned." What if it isn't brahminism at all, but Vaishnav sanatanism, and what if it actually is original to Gursikhi? It would explain all the sanatan footprints in Sikh history, the original sanatan Singh Sabha, and even the sanatan references all over Gurbani. What if all the cutting, pasting, deletions, editing, banning, and denials are trying to cover-up one of the most logical truths... Sikhism is part of Sanatana Dharma. And only because of association with the British Raj who tried to divide India using sepoys to internally fight with Hindus and Muslims to prevent Indian independence. The British Raj were the birth of the Singh Sabha movement and massive distortions of Sikhism. Singh Sabha adopted a pseudo-Abrahamic world-view and tried to force Sikhism into it, claiming among such absurdities as Guru's rejected Hindu Mat (show me the pauri), Sikhism is monotheistic (prove it), Sikhism doesn't believe in miracles or reincarnation or devas (really?). Singh Sabha is just the ideology left-over from the British that Sikhism is some kind of Christian-Islam and enemy of Hinduism, and that Jats are Aryan race descended from Pathans and Greek Scythians and have no association with Dravidic India.

Manu Smritis have no operative authority in Vaishnav or Shaiva or Shakta sampradayas. Live with it. Moreover the text has been adulterated and distorted by the British and does not reflect true teaching of Varna system. Modern caste system is neither Vedic nor part of Sanatana Dharma. When presented with the truth, why not reflect and study further? Wherever there is a disagreement, Smritis are also inferior to Shruti/Vedas. Vedas teach the gunas of a person are reflected in their mentality, not in their birth. A Shudra can become a Brahmin. This is also taught in Gurbani. Or is there some secondary gain in promoting falsehood for propaganda purposes? Painting something in the very worst, exaggerated light is called SLANDER. Why are you slandering the truth about Hindu religion? You slander your own Gurbani as well since Gurbani is teaching a Vedic concept and correction of the corruptions of Hindustani society. So were the Vaishnav sampradayas. That's why Vaishnav bhagats from low caste who are SAINTS according to VAISHNAV MAT as well as SIKHISM have those exact teachings having become part of Gurbani.

Raja doesn't only mean King. There are secondary and tertiary relational usages such as kingship, authority, power and dominion also being expressed depending on grammatical construct. In trying to express the relational association to Vaishnav Mat which would be underscored by submission and authority of Guru who is called in Gurbani as True King, then authority of Kingship becomes foremost. As a concept this is expressed from the phrase "Raja-pada." which has association to Guru's charan and Lordship Mastery of a Guru over his chelas much as a King over his subjects. So the question arises does "Raja-ee" meaning the Divine Will have any relation to the sankalpa of a Satguru? Some may say no. And some may say yes. But what is indisputable is that Gurbani itself submits the shishya/sikh to Guru's Divine Will just as Gurbani places the Shishya/chela/sikh under submission to the Hukam of God's command in the sargun swaroop of Guru.

Neither is Nihang Panth a political unity, and yes Nihang Panth as well as even Nirmala Panth have been influenced by politics of Singh Sabha, absolutely. But I agree that there are some outstanding purataan Nihang Singhs still around who think SGPC is rubbish. However, the political commentary you referenced regarding an opinion statement about Deva/devti comes from the SGPC SRM, and was interpolated as a political statement pretending to represent the authority of Khalsa Sikhs. So I am discussing a particular element, and not whether or not entire Nihang Jatha believes or agrees with something.

I am not a member of the RSS.

I have no association with Niddar Singh. Never have I met him. Never have I spoken to any of his group. Neither do I represent his views. I am not insistent about anything. I simply came here, read some inflammatory propaganda, and decided to share my views. Hindus and Sikhs are far more related than perhaps you realize. But a closed minded person can never change his understanding. Sikhs are NOT respecting Hinduism at all, because Punjab and Sikhi are being infiltrated by Islamic fundamentalist whose aim is to alienate Sikhs from the Dharmic heritage of purataan Gursikhi in order to cause civil war and political mischief in India. This is the force behind the Dal Khalsa morcha to intimidate and even support assassination squads from Babbar Khalsa and Khalistan Zindabad Force, all clearly represented in posters during their march in April. And of course, terrorist groups stationed in Pakistan and collaborating with Lasker e Taiba and Mujihadeeni groups working for military overthrow of the Indian state. So why wouldn't it be a concern that the very Dharma which the Guru Sahibaan fought and died to defend is now being trampled by people calling themselves as "Sikhs?" Just look at your own Gurbani and your own heritage. You cannot blot out your Hindustani heritage nor overthrow the precious Sanatana Dharma just like that. If you wanted to at least show real respect, would I even be posting here now? Because you show respect? Or because you are trashing? Why did I post? It was to protest all of your anti-Hindu hatred expressed here calling Sikh-Hindu Unity as "Anti-Sikh Propaganda.

Well at least we can clearly see where you all are coming from.

I am not a liar to give answer according to my best understanding. It is your belief that Vaishnav mat has nothing to do with what you claim as "Muslim concepts" of Hukam and Raja-ee. I differ! You are basing simple linguistics as radical difference. This is too simplistic. Do you think the God is not present throughout the whole world? And if the God is present throughout the whole world, than every religion has some degree of knowledge of the God. And if this is so, why would there be no relationship between one thing and another? Isn't the whole of Gurbani asserting the opposite? That Vaishnavism and Islam can find a path of unity? Isn't that the very meaning of SIkh Gurbani? That it isn't religious ritualism, but authentic and sincere spirituality by which the God is found? And did not the Guru Sahibaan include bani of spiritual Masters regardless of their tradition, either Vaishnav or Sufi? So if you are calling as utterly unrelated the Vaishnavs, why is there bani in Guru Granth Sahib Ji? The word "hukam" relates to the Guru-chela relationship because GURBANI teaches that the Guru-Chela relationship is necessary to reach the God. And when Sikhs take Hukam, they are taking Hukam from the Guru. If a Sikh is not a chela of the Guru, he cannot receive the Hukam of God because only the Guru can bring God to the chela, according to SIKH and also Vaishnav Mat. Where does a Sikh take Hukamnama? From the sky? Or from his Guru, Guru Granth Sahib? The question was asked how the terms "Hukam" and "Raja-ee" relate to Vaishnav Mat. I gave the answer by relationship of Vaishnav teaching of the surrender to Guru-Chela relationship. And then I showed Gurbani where this is also Sikh teaching. THAT is the relationship. Because Sikh does takes Hukam from GURU Sahib's bani, and surrender's his head, his mind/mann to Guru Sahib, so that his life becomes a sacrifice to the true Guru which is the Shabd jyoth expressed in the very words of Guru's bani which resonate from a vibration beyond the physical forms of either the words or the bodies of the Guru's physical forms. The Shabd and Jyoth emanate from the Primal sound current which comes from the nirguna. A Sikh does not take Hukam from the nirguna. No one can hear or perceive the nirguna. That's why it's necessary to have a Sat Guru. A Sikh takes visible words of Guruji's Shabad for Hukamnama. Just as a Sikh does "prapatti" throws himself under the Guru's feet/charan every time he does namaskar in Guru Granth Sahib's Divine Presence. Guru Sahib does talk about charan pahul in many places, you can't pick apart Guru Granth Sahib like that. ENTIRE Gurbani is the hukam for a Sikh.

I did make up my mind. I said it is from Arabic word Raza but has relationship to Raja on basis of close approximation of sound and useage but that derivative use was not as persuasive. However the closest approximation was Prapatti to the actual meaning. What are you a lingusitic teacher or just making arguments? Do you have any discussion to add or just complaints? Are you familiar with the fact that majority of modern languages all over the world call mata as "Ma?" Thats a derivative linguistic association which experts believe shows relationship to common ancestral language. So, although you may disagree, relational derivative sounds and meanings are not invalid. And in the usage which was closest to both "prapatti" and "charan pahul" the Sanskrit derivation of "Raja pada" was closest. Otherwise words for "God's Command" and "Divine Will" are Arabic. Now what relationship has that to Vaishnav was the question, so one has to look at Braj Basha or Sanskrit equivalents. Again, are you carrying on a discussion or just nit picking for sake of argumentation?

Anyone can say anything. Immediately after the murder Khalsas started blaming the Chamar community that it was an "internal issue" having nothing to do with Jats at all, and now blaming that the shooters were Chamars. And all this when the shooting occurred within 2 months of Dal Khalsa's morcha against dedhari snatan Sikh babas and dera leaders making what is almost a death threat in public hoisting lifesize posters of Babbar Khalsa leaders. But you people make claims "Khalistan Zindabad Force didn't do it." "Babbar Khalsa didn't do it." "Jats didn't do it." "Khalsa Sikhs didn't do it." "it was the Chamars themselves." Oh really? And wheres the proof? More opinion? Empty talk is close to lies. And then add on the irrational comments such as he had it coming because "how much disrespect could a Sikh take?" And shooting up a temple filled with families, old people, women and children. And you don't even have the dignity to say THAT is wrong. But only show mentality that sanatan baba was "intolerably wrong." So "grievously, intolerably" wrong to your self-righteous opinions that you are silent about shooting up innocents to justify that he deserved to get shot! And why not mention Darshan Dasi? It reflects a pattern of terror and murder by Khalistani fanatics which the whole world should condemn. Who in the hell do these bully khalsas think they are? God's gift to religion? You should be ashamed to support maha paap like murder of an unarmed old man. The Ravidasi sangat calls these allegations as lies saying he did no such nidya of Guru Sahib. I'm inclined to believe them over supporters of killers. And without proof, you should be quiet or you may be found guilty spreading lies amongst the Guru's sangat and just to support ugliness. That's not right. Just say, "I think..." Because you've given no authority to know