HarjasDevi

Just saying does not make it so. Such are empty argumentative statements with no truth or substance. If you want to prove a point, then do background check and provide citation reference so everyone can see some proof of it's reality. Anyone can fill up space with just opinion. If opinion is based on nothing, then it is already half a lie. Opinions can be wrong, but just talk is an eyesore. Every Jatha had particular oral traditions and rehitnamay. But the document and structure of a Sikh Rehit Maryada did NOT exist until it was codified and created by the SGPC, and accepted by the Panth in about in 1950. As you see from certain printed criticisms, the committee decided without any evidence of convening panj piare for hukamnama and decided for themselves on deletion or revision of certain rehitnamay. Nor was there any Panthic evaluation of the selections apart from the designated SGPC committee. And hence does not constitute any binding force of Gurmat. The current SRM is a political construction which has selectively decided on particular rehitnamay and added interpolative opinion in the code as authoritative without authority of either Gurmat or force of purataan rehitnamay. Do your homework at least. Don't just post statements easily contradicted by easily researched fact. We can all see the political instrument of an SGPC Rehit Maryada actually changed purataan rehitnamay without even convening the Panj. Is this supposed to be authoritative?

And first post was last night. Are you trying to be annoying?

I see degrading personal attacks are tolerated on this forum. How dare you judge me on the basis of Manu Smritis which are a British manipulated racist diatribe and do not represent the Sanatana Dharma, nor are they authoritative. You invent an ugliness you demand untruthfully is representing Hindu religion and then you trample people's reputations falsely who do not have any believe or faith whatsoever in such slanderous lies. Why do nindya? Do you think it makes you look good as a Khalsa? You misrepresent, lie and demonize Hindu Dharma and true teaching and then make personal attacks based on deliberate lies and misrepresentation. Have you no honor as a Singh?

I only joined this forum last night. There are like 18 different replies all demanding an immediate answer and then badgering if they don't get one. That is poor sportsmanship. I already wrote that I do not accept uncritically the Dasm Granth presented to us by the SGPC because there is a history of manipulations and distortions and deletions of controversial texts. Also, I have not eatedn all day and will take leave of this forum to go do that now. I'm sorry you can't get answers to every demanding question in one day. There is one of me and several of you. Neither have I challenged or badgered or treated any of you in a hostile way. But I'm accustomed to the Sikh persecutions, badgering and banning game. Looks like this is just more of the same.

The Manu Smritis do not have the authority of Sruti, moreover they were the first scripture which the British "translated" and manipulated in order to establish Anglo-Saxon Case Law in British India as an "authoritative" document with force of law, which most Hindu sampradayas do not even recognize, and is also why the "Indian legal system" wound up being a mere copy of the English one. No one recognizes the authority of Manu Smritis over the Vedas and Puranas. Every sect acknowledges passages have been manipulated and interpolated by the British and that the modern caste varna system is a corruption of the Divine intent. Vaishnavism and Shaivism introduced caste based reforms, started langar halls, admited outcastes and women as both chelas and Gurus hundreds of years before Guru Nanak Dev i was ever born. Most Vaishnav sampradayas were a reform against brahminism to begin with. Or did you miss all those low caste Vaishnav Bhagats whose bani has become Gurbani? According to Manu Smritis, varna is hereditary. According to the Vedas and Puranas, Varna is a consequence of an individuals dispositions. ਅਧਮ ਚੰਡਾਲੀ ਭਈ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਣੀ ਸੂਦੀ ਤੇ ਸ੍ਰੇਸਟਾਈ ਰੇ ॥ adhham chanddaalee bhee brehamanee soodhee thae sraesattaaee rae || The lowly outcaste becomes a Brahmin, and the untouchable sweeper becomes pure and sublime. ~SGGS Ji ang 381 ਸੋ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣੁ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਜੋ ਬਿੰਦੇ ਹਰਿ ਸੇਤੀ ਰੰਗਿ ਰਾਤਾ ॥ so braahaman breham jo bindhae har saethee rang raathaa || He alone is a Brahmin, who knows the Lord Brahma, and is attuned to the Love of the Lord. ~SGGS Ji ang 68 ਬਬਾ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਜਾਨਤ ਤੇ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ॥ babaa breham jaanath thae brehamaa || BABBA: One who knows God is a Brahmin. ਬੈਸਨੋ ਤੇ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਸੁਚ ਧਰਮਾ ॥ baisano thae guramukh such dhharamaa || A Vaishnaav is one who, as Gurmukh, lives the righteous life of Dharma. ਬੀਰਾ ਆਪਨ ਬੁਰਾ ਮਿਟਾਵੈ ॥ beeraa aapan buraa mittaavai || One who eradicates his own evil is a brave warrior; ਤਾਹੂ ਬੁਰਾ ਨਿਕਟਿ ਨਹੀ ਆਵੈ ॥ thaahoo buraa nikatt nehee aavai || no evil even approaches him. ਬਾਧਿਓ ਆਪਨ ਹਉ ਹਉ ਬੰਧਾ ॥ baadhhiou aapan ho ho bandhhaa || Man is bound by the chains of his own egotism, selfishness and conceit. ਦੋਸੁ ਦੇਤ ਆਗਹ ਕਉ ਅੰਧਾ ॥ dhos dhaeth aageh ko andhhaa || The spiritually blind place the blame on others. ~SGGS Ji ang 258

Incorporating things like names of angels or names of qualities of God doesn't have any effect on the philosphical concepts and beliefs of the Nanakian system now does it? There is still Guru and shishyas, and reincarnation and Mukti and Naam japo and Ida, pingala and shushmana nadis, dasm duara, chitr and gupt. Sanatana Dharma doesn't disappear because historical associations add new elements. Buddhism has far more radically new concepts than Sikhi, yet every school of Buddhism accepts that Buddhism is a Sanatan philosphy. Tibetan Buddhism for one admits large body of Manichean Christian symbology which is "Semitic." But it doesn't change that it is still a sanatan philosphical structure. Rather then merely incorporating Names of qualities of God, Gurbani describes the actual Gods Krishna with blue skin, flute, gopis in Vrindaban, Vishnu with 4 arms, conch shell, mace, lotus, chakr, etc. These are Sanatan teachings. Some words from Arabic and Farsi, an emphasis on Nirguna, some names of Angels or qualities, some poetry perhaps? Is a beautiful thing. But the overall belief structure is completely Sanatan. Not one thing has changed. The path of salvation for a Sikh is exactly the same as for a Hindu. Can you show me anything within Gurmat which is like a practice or philosophy unique to Islam which would fundamentally alter the beliefs and teachings of the "religion" of Sikhism and make it "unlike" Hindu religion?

Because the SRM didn't exist until the Singh Sabha Scholars of the SGPC complieled it and the Panth accepted it. It doesn't matter what they call it or what their attitude toward them is. There were huge political changes influencing modern Sikhism and one of them is the creation of the Sikh Rehit Maryada. And it does have the parts you mentioned. I quoted them all the time. It's additional Singh Sabha political commentary tucked in together with the rehits. SRM isn't a Gurmat source.

How old is this? It's older than Islam by a couple thousand years. Kashmiri Shaivism and Tantric Buddhism are related mystical schools which were predominant in the region for generations before there was a Mohammed. Inside this container which looks to an average Hindu to be a yoni, are pieces of black stone from the Kaaba. Here is Mohamed with what clearly appears to the average Hindu to be a black linga. Can you accept that non-Muslims will not necesarily share a Muslim interpretation of Muslim beliefs? When I see Kaaba, I see Shiva linga. To a religious Muslim, he will not see that. I can accept that a Muslim doesn't accept that. But it doesn't change my belief. And I mean no disrespect to Islam or Islam's prophet Mohamed to share my belief. from a Hindu viewpoint, a linga is sacred and contains energies of the God. Kaaba was ancient even in Mohammed's time. It's absurd to believe a religion thousands of years old had no influence on independent new religious movements. Everybody want's to be unique. But language isn't even unique. Linguists can trace root words that connect across the globe. Why is this? because human societies migrated from one original source and can trace back to an original Mother Tongue. The original Mother Tongue of religions is called Sanatana Dharma. Is Islam different and unique? Without question. But is it completely free of any earlier associations or influences? Not even possible. Is it unique? Yes. Is it entirely independent? No way.

The Sikh Rehit Maryada was first compiled in 1950. It is NOT purataan. You are talking about the SGPC Rehit Maryada. Budha Dal just copied those Singh Sabha parts to theirs. All the Sikh Jathas did that. Means that the Singh Sabhia anti-Hindu, anti-Sanatan interpretation of "Gurmat" was a political imposition with the development of a new document SRM which didn't even exist before that. Means it's NOT Gurmat. It's Singh Sabha/SGPC Mat.

So you are saying the shooting was justified? And Sikhs should go around killing people from other sampradayas for political reasons or because they get upset at different interpretations of Sikhism? You think if someone could cut off Durga Ma's nose and Guru Ji wouldn't be upset about it because Durga Ma can take care of Herself, that Guru Ji is going to be so upset that someone says something about Him? That Singhs should play judge, jury and executioner and shoot someone to death over words? What actions did the Tat Khalsa community take to publically educate the Ravidasi sangat or filmed meetings of Gyani Ji's to teach something before this outrageous act of thuggery? And this is a justification for terrorizing a sangat and murdering an unarmed old man? Because of hearsay? Because someone said he said? And just like the rumors about Darshan Das that grow like Pinocchio's nose. Anyone can say anything. Shooting unarmed people when they have no chance and don't expect it is the act of cowards. To shoot an unarmed old man and act like bullies enforcing the will of God and terrorizing a sangat is demonic. Why justify that?

The Sikhs were never "living Gurus?" Why would you think the concept of living Gurus so foreign to Sikhi when there were 10 physical bodies of Guru which were served in worship puja including pada puja also known as washing and drinking the foot wash of a Guru, a sanatan tradition. Sikhi and hukam were never about Guruji's hukam? Guru shishya relationship is not the first step of Sikhi, but hukam is, even before diksha/dheekya? Without acceptance of the Guru, how can there be a Guru ji's hukam? ਦੀਖਿਆ ਆਖਿ ਬੁਝਾਇਆ ਸਿਫਤੀ ਸਚਿ ਸਮੇਉ ॥ dheekhiaa aakh bujhaaeiaa sifathee sach samaeo || Those who have accepted the Guru's Teachings and who have found the path remain absorbed in the Praises of the True Lord. ~SGGS Ji ang 150 ਜੋ ਨਰੁ ਉਸ ਕੀ ਸਰਣੀ ਪਰੈ ਤਿਸੁ ਕੰਬਹਿ ਪਾਪੈ ॥ jo nar ous kee saranee parai this kanbehi paapai || Sins run away from that man, who seeks the Sanctuary of the Lord. ਜਨਮ ਜਨਮ ਕੀ ਮਲੁ ਉਤਰੈ ਗੁਰ ਧੂੜੀ ਨਾਪੈ ॥ janam janam kee mal outharai gur dhhoorree naapai || The filth of countless incarnations is washed away, bathing in the dust of the Guru's feet. ਜਿਨਿ ਹਰਿ ਭਾਣਾ ਮੰਨਿਆ ਤਿਸੁ ਸੋਗੁ ਨ ਸੰਤਾਪੈ ॥ jin har bhaanaa manniaa this sog n santhaapai || Whoever submits to the Lord's Will does not suffer in sorrow. ~SGGS Ji ang 1097 Dheekya and bathing in the dust of Guru's feet IS submission to the Guru's Will. ਕਿਸੁ ਸੇਵਉ ਕਿਸੁ ਦੇਵਉ ਚੀਤੁ ॥ kis saevo kis dhaevo cheeth || Whom should I serve? Unto whom should I dedicate my consciousness? ਕਿਸੁ ਪੂਛਉ ਕਿਸੁ ਲਾਗਉ ਪਾਇ ॥ kis pooshho kis laago paae || Whom should I ask? At whose feet should I fall? ਕਿਸੁ ਉਪਦੇਸਿ ਰਹਾ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਇ ॥੫॥ kis oupadhaes rehaa liv laae ||5|| By whose teachings will I remain absorbed in His Love? ||5|| ਗੁਰ ਸੇਵੀ ਗੁਰ ਲਾਗਉ ਪਾਇ ॥ gur saevee gur laago paae || I serve the Guru, and I fall at the Guru's Feet. ਭਗਤਿ ਕਰੀ ਰਾਚਉ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਇ ॥ bhagath karee raacho har naae || I worship Him, and I am absorbed in the Lord's Name. ਸਿਖਿਆ ਦੀਖਿਆ ਭੋਜਨ ਭਾਉ ॥ sikhiaa dheekhiaa bhojan bhaao || The Lord's Love is my instruction, sermon and food. ਹੁਕਮਿ ਸੰਜੋਗੀ ਨਿਜ ਘਰਿ ਜਾਉ ॥੬॥ hukam sanjogee nij ghar jaao ||6|| Enjoined to the Lord's Command, I have entered the home of my inner self. ||6|| ~SGGS Ji ang 221 Clearly BEFORE Hukam, is "falling at the Guru's feet" (prapatti) and accepting Dheekya (initiation). And what is dheekya intiation in Gurbani? ਸਿਮਰਿ ਸਿਮਰਿ ਤਾ ਕਉ ਹਉ ਜੀਵਾ ॥ simar simar thaa ko ho jeevaa || Meditating, meditating in remembrance on Him, I live. ਚਰਣ ਕਮਲ ਤੇਰੇ ਧੋਇ ਧੋਇ ਪੀਵਾ ॥੧॥ charan kamal thaerae dhhoe dhhoe peevaa ||1|| I wash Your Lotus Feet, and drink in the wash water. ||1|| ~SGGS Ji ang 740 Do you have a concept of what Gurbani actually says? there is no COMMAND of DIVINE WILL to follow if there is no connection/initiation/dheekya which establishes you as a shishya in the first place. It is the surrendering of the mind to a Guru which is the beginning of obedience. This and this alone is what it means to be a slave/das of a Satguru. And that obedience is established through prapatti (throwing oneself down) and Raja pada (at the feet of the Guru Master). This IS the essence of "Hukam Raja-ee chalna." Without it you don't even have a Guru and you aren't even a Sikh, shishya, chaylaa. ਪ੍ਰਣਵਤਿ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਅਗਮੁ ਸੁਣਾਏ ॥ pranavath naanak agam sunaaeae || Prays Nanak, I share the mysterious secrets of God. ਗੁਰ ਚੇਲੇ ਕੀ ਸੰਧਿ ਮਿਲਾਏ ॥ gur chaelae kee sandhh milaaeae || The Guru and His disciple are joined together! ਦੀਖਿਆ ਦਾਰੂ ਭੋਜਨੁ ਖਾਇ ॥ dheekhiaa dhaaroo bhojan khaae || One who eats this food, this medicine of the Teachings, ~SGGS Ji ang 877 ਗੁਰ ਚੇਲੇ ਅਪਨਾ ਮਨੁ ਮਾਨਿਆ ॥ gur chaelae apanaa man maaniaa || When the disciple's mind accepts the Guru, ਨਾਨਕ ਦੂਜਾ ਮੇਟਿ ਸਮਾਨਿਆ ॥੮॥੩॥ naanak dhoojaa maett samaaniaa ||8||3|| O Nanak, duality is eradicated, and he merges in the Lord. ||8||3|| ~SGGS Ji ang 904 Guru Chela relationship is the only boat of mukti. Dheekya and commitment is the first step, which charan pahul was replaced by Guru Gobind Singh Ji with Khande Ki Pahul. FIRST STEP OF A SIKH OR HE ISN'T EVEN A SIKH! Hukam proceeds from it and dictates the sadhana/discipline/rehit and sacrifice required of a chela. Without diksha, a chela has no obligation to fulfill rehit/sadhana of a Guru, because there is no bond/commitment.

That is not a citation I can independently verify. Is a copy of this separate swaroop of Shri Dasm Granth available which is preserved from Singh Sabha influence? Because it would be very interesting, many scholars would like to know. Did you read this yourself? Take photos of the swaroop? Or is it just word of mouth no one can verify? And we need to look at interpretation. A Panth is a path or way of religious practice and applies to separate sects and sampradayas, not a religion. Guru Nanak Panth has been a spiritual unity between the warring Hindustanis and Thuraks, which is why only these 2 conflicting paths to God are being mentioned. Outside of this context, a "Third Religion" is meaningless since there are hundreds of different religions. But I would be very interested to know about a volume of Shri Dasm Granth bani preserved from tat Khalsa corruption, absolutely. And especially to make side by side comparisons of any differences, distortions or deliberate omissions on part of the SGPC.

Every opinion of some person posting is not a reflection of the perspective of the Sikh-Hindu Unity efforts. People here on this thread were not bashing rude or silly comments but the ideal of Sikh-Hindu unity by insulting as cow piss drinkers, mo fos and turds? And I have heard plenty of disrespect of Hindu religion from Sikhs on many threads on many forums. But that is also not the point. The point is not tit for tat, "he said, she said." The point is Why is Sikh-Hindu Unity considered "anti-Sikh?" And why do Sikhs react to sanatan ideology as if it were something disgusting? Nihang Jatha, Nanaksar, Nirankaris, Nirmalay, Seva-panthis, Ravidasis, Udasis, Radhasoamis, Namdharis, Ramgarias, Sikligers. Buddha Dal is not sanatan? Well Hazoori Sahib Singhs do tilak of shastars following jhatka of a black goat. And they keep aarati. These are sanatan traditions originating from Kali puja. Insults? Yes, Dal Khalsa issued a statement in April of this year that Sikhs should have no tolerance for sanatan sects or sampradayas which had tradition of dedhari gurus or baba sants and threatened they should be dealt with by any force necessary. And shortly after this, the Ravidasi baba was gunned down. Need I hunt down the many insulting and crude posts fanatic Sikhs have made about ANYONE and ANY SECT which does not conform to their narrow interpretation of "Sikh religion?" And what exactly would that prove? If you want to fight, you will deny the obvious. And I suppose you didn't see the incredible hate addressed to the Chamar community following the shooting of baba Ramanand due to Chamar-Jatt hostility either? Why are different Sanatan sects being threatened with violence and treated to insults? Why are Hindus being called cow piss drinkers, turds and mo fos? And you and I both know how tame these comments are compared to the many outside this forum. Let's not be naive. Nirmalay are not sanatan, and yet they are traditional Mahants who kept murthis in Gurdwaras and were the Vedic scholars of the Panth. Okay, reinvent reality if it suits you.

The thread is entitled Hindu-Sikh Unity, and thereby includes issues from that forum. And how Sikh fanatics are misconstruing simple ideological differences as forms of disrespect while at the same time heaping disrespect on Hindu's, Hindu religion, and Sanatan Sikhs.

Hindu Mat linguistically only means the teachings which originally came from region of Hindustan and are collectively known as Sanatana Dharma, which means universal responsibility to the Truth. And those teachings form the core basis of Sruti which is the utterances of the Rishis and written in the Vedas. Devanagari script is said to come from higher realms of the devas. So the origin of Sanatana Dharma is ancient. ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਦੰ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਵੇਦੰ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਸਮਾਈ ॥ guramukh naadhan guramukh vaedhan guramukh rehiaa samaaee || The Guru's Word is the Sound-current of the Naad; the Guru's Word is the Wisdom of the Vedas; the Guru's Word is all-pervading. ~SGGS Ji ang 2 Buddhism is very unique in comparison with Hinduism. Yet no one disputes it's derivation from Hindu Mat. Not even Buddhists. Sikhism is also unique. But the question is, is Sikhism unique enough to stand independently from Hindu concepts and philosophies? It is my sincere opinion that it does not stand independent of those concepts but utilizes them. For example, Gurbani teaches reincarnation and transmigration. Gurbani teaches heavenly realms and hell realms, bhutas, jams, and a Jama Dhuta. Are these unique concepts? No. They are all found within the body of sanatan scriptures. Gurbani teaches that you must have a Satguru to obtain mukti. It teaches about jivan mukta. Is these concepts unique only to Sikhi? No. They are derived from Hindu scriptures. Gurbani describes a Guru Shishya/chela relationship and deeksha by charan pahul and Gurmantara to achieve liberation. Is this a unique concept? No. It is derived from Hindu scriptures. Gurbani describes mukti and samadhi and the fourth state of consciousness, also known as Turiya. It believes in the sound current of the Nada, the Shabda, the anehad Shabad, and Naam Japna. Are these unique concepts? No. they all derive from Hindu scriptures. Gurbani describes the panj bhootas: kam, krodh, lobh, moh, ahankar. Are these unique concepts? No. They all derive from Hindu scriptures. Gurbani describes becoming a sacrifice and surrendering your head to Guru. Is this a unique concept No. It is derived from Hindu scruptures. The Singh surname, the martial tradition, the wearing of dastar, the keeping of kesas and dhari, gatka. Are these unique traditions? No. they are derived from Shaiva Rajput traditions. The Akali Nihang roop, is it a unique tradition? No. It is derived from Shiva Ji's roop including wearing of Shiva linga and Chandi yoni. The tying of jura over the dasm duar. Is this a unique concept? No. it is derived from Shaiva Sutras. Gurbani talks about the three gunas, nirgun-sargun, and concept of Maya. Are these unique concepts? No. they are all derived from Hindu scriptures. Gurbani talks about the all-pervading Oneness of God and duality. Are these unique concepts? No. They are arising out of Hindu scriptures. So my question, if Sikhism, which means disciple-ism and hence no Sikh Guru could ever be His own shishya, if Sikhism is entirely new and entirely distinct, then why is it so blatantly Sanatan? If it is sanatan in it's concepts, world-view and teachings, then it is clearly a sect within Sanatana Dharma. It doesn't have any teaching which is utterly so unique as to be unheard of within other sects of Hinduism. Shiva's linga and Chandi's yoni worn over the agni chakr, third eye.

Krishna is NOT a metaphor for Maya. For one thing Maya is feminine Shakti and Krishan is male. But you are entitled to your opinion. I don't believe that every sanatan reference in Gurbani is a mere metaphor to invalidate it's legitimacy as the concept it clearly presents. If the creation is dancing because of Krishna, it's not as symbolism of Shakti, but because of His flute to entice, and since He is a Vishnu avatar and symbolic of preservation of creation, He represents that aspect which is life-bringing as opposed to the traditional image of Shiva Nataraj dance of destruction. But the point it, Gurbani illustrates Krishna as the power of God in the tuuk. It's not a war of personalities. God is God, and He is all pervading His creation. So it doesn't matter if you call God as Krishna or Ram or Allah or Durga. God is still the same God. Only our concepts are limited in understanding exactly what God is. Gurbani would make no reference to Krishna at all if the Guru Sahibaan were against Him or disrespected His symbolism as worthless, let alone describe Him as the very God, metaphor or not. You simply can't erase Krishna from Gurbani. And there He is, representing Sanatan world-view and philosophical systems.

No, actually Khalsa is still legally my name. I haven't used Khalsa on forums for awhile because it tends to pit Khalsas versus Sehajdharis and I don't promote that kind of conflict. Everyone is a child of God and we should do our best to encourage people to get close to the Divine in the best way we can without putting ourselves up on a pedestal looking down at them. How do you know I am a Shakta?

ਏਕ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨੰ ਸਰਬ ਦੇਵਾ ਦੇਵ ਦੇਵਾ ਤ ਆਤਮਾ ॥ eaek kirasanan sarab dhaevaa dhaev dhaevaa th aathamaa || The One Lord Krishna is the Divine Lord of all; He is the Divinity of the individual soul. ਆਤਮਾ ਬਾਸੁਦੇਵਸ੍ਯ੍ਯਿ ਜੇ ਕੋ ਜਾਣੈ ਭੇਉ ॥ਨਾਨਕੁ ਤਾ ਕਾ ਦਾਸੁ ਹੈ ਸੋਈ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਦੇਉ ॥੪॥ aathamaa baasudhaevasiy jae ko jaanai bhaeo || naanak thaa kaa dhaas hai soee niranjan dhaeo ||4|| Nanak is a slave to anyone who understands this mystery of the all-pervading Lord; he himself is the Immaculate Divine Lord. ||4|| ~SGGS Ji ang 469 Vasudeva Niranjana ਜੁਗੁ ਦੁਆਪੁਰੁ ਆਇਆ ਭਰਮਿ ਭਰਮਾਇਆ ਹਰਿ ਗੋਪੀ ਕਾਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੁ ਉਪਾਇ ਜੀਉ ॥ jug dhuaapur aaeiaa bharam bharamaaeiaa har gopee kaanha oupaae jeeo || The Brass Age of Dwaapar Yuga came, and people wandered in doubt. The Lord created the Gopis and Krishna. ਤਪੁ ਤਾਪਨ ਤਾਪਹਿ ਜਗ ਪੁੰਨ ਆਰੰਭਹਿ ਅਤਿ ਕਿਰਿਆ ਕਰਮ ਕਮਾਇ ਜੀਉ ॥ thap thaapan thaapehi jag punn aaranbhehi ath kiriaa karam kamaae jeeo || The penitents practiced penance, they offered sacred feasts and charity, and performed many rituals and religious rites. ਕਿਰਿਆ ਕਰਮ ਕਮਾਇਆ ਪਗ ਦੁਇ ਖਿਸਕਾਇਆ ਦੁਇ ਪਗ ਟਿਕੈ ਟਿਕਾਇ ਜੀਉ ॥ kiriaa karam kamaaeiaa pag dhue khisakaaeiaa dhue pag ttikai ttikaae jeeo || They performed many rituals and religious rites; two legs of religion dropped away, and only two legs remained. ਮਹਾ ਜੁਧ ਜੋਧ ਬਹੁ ਕੀਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੇ ਵਿਚਿ ਹਉਮੈ ਪਚੈ ਪਚਾਇ ਜੀਉ ॥ mehaa judhh jodhh bahu keenhae vich houmai pachai pachaae jeeo || So many heroes waged great wars; in their egos they were ruined, and they ruined others as well. ਦੀਨ ਦਇਆਲਿ ਗੁਰੁ ਸਾਧੁ ਮਿਲਾਇਆ ਮਿਲਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਮਲੁ ਲਹਿ ਜਾਇ ਜੀਉ ॥ dheen dhaeiaal gur saadhh milaaeiaa mil sathigur mal lehi jaae jeeo || The Lord, Compassionate to the poor, led them to meet the Holy Guru. Meeting the True Guru, their filth is washed away. ਜੁਗੁ ਦੁਆਪੁਰੁ ਆਇਆ ਭਰਮਿ ਭਰਮਾਇਆ ਹਰਿ ਗੋਪੀ ਕਾਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੁ ਉਪਾਇ ਜੀਉ ॥੩॥ jug dhuaapur aaeiaa bharam bharamaaeiaa har gopee kaanha oupaae jeeo ||3|| The Brass Age of Dwaapar Yuga came, and the people wandered in doubt. The Lord created the Gopis and Krishna. ||3|| ~SGGS Ji ang 445 ਮੇਰੇ ਮਨ ਜਪਿ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮੁ ਓਮਾਹਾ ॥ maerae man jap raam naam oumaahaa || O my mind, joyfully chant the Name of the Lord. ਅਨਦਿਨੁ ਅਨਦੁ ਹੋਵੈ ਵਡਭਾਗੀ ਲੈ ਗੁਰਿ ਪੂਰੈ ਹਰਿ ਲਾਹਾ ॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ anadhin anadh hovai vaddabhaagee lai gur poorai har laahaa || rehaao || Those very fortunate ones are in ecstasy night and day; through the Perfect Guru, they obtain the profit of the Lord's Name. ||Pause|| ਆਪੇ ਗੋਪੀ ਕਾਨੁ ਹੈ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਬਨਿ ਆਪੇ ਗਊ ਚਰਾਹਾ ॥ aapae gopee kaan hai piaaraa ban aapae goo charaahaa || The Beloved Himself is the milk-maid and Krishna; He Himself herds the cows in the woods. ਆਪੇ ਸਾਵਲ ਸੁੰਦਰਾ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਆਪੇ ਵੰਸੁ ਵਜਾਹਾ ॥ aapae saaval sundharaa piaaraa aapae vans vajaahaa || The Beloved Himself is the blue-skinned, handsome one; He Himself plays on His flute. ਕੁਵਲੀਆ ਪੀੜੁ ਆਪਿ ਮਰਾਇਦਾ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਕਰਿ ਬਾਲਕ ਰੂਪਿ ਪਚਾਹਾ ॥੨॥ kuvaleeaa peerr aap maraaeidhaa piaaraa kar baalak roop pachaahaa ||2|| The Beloved Himself took the form of a child, and destroyed Kuwalia-peer, the mad elephant. ||2|| ਆਪਿ ਅਖਾੜਾ ਪਾਇਦਾ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਕਰਿ ਵੇਖੈ ਆਪਿ ਚੋਜਾਹਾ ॥ aap akhaarraa paaeidhaa piaaraa kar vaekhai aap chojaahaa || The Beloved Himself sets the stage; He performs the plays, and He Himself watches them. ਕਰਿ ਬਾਲਕ ਰੂਪ ਉਪਾਇਦਾ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਚੰਡੂਰੁ ਕੰਸੁ ਕੇਸੁ ਮਾਰਾਹਾ ॥ kar baalak roop oupaaeidhaa piaaraa chanddoor kans kaes maaraahaa || The Beloved Himself assumed the form of the child, and killed the demons Chandoor, Kansa and Kaysee. ਆਪੇ ਹੀ ਬਲੁ ਆਪਿ ਹੈ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਬਲੁ ਭੰਨੈ ਮੂਰਖ ਮੁਗਧਾਹਾ ॥੩॥ aapae hee bal aap hai piaaraa bal bhannai moorakh mugadhhaahaa ||3|| The Beloved Himself, by Himself, is the embodiment of power; He shatters the power of the fools and idiots. ||3|| ਸਭੁ ਆਪੇ ਜਗਤੁ ਉਪਾਇਦਾ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਵਸਿ ਆਪੇ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਹਥਾਹਾ ॥ sabh aapae jagath oupaaeidhaa piaaraa vas aapae jugath hathhaahaa || The Beloved Himself created the whole world. In His hands He holds the power of the ages. ~SGGS Ji ang 606 Why is Gurbani describing The Beloved as Bala Krishna with dark skin, flute, cows, gopis, etc and also as perfect Guru and creator? ਕ੍ਰਿਸ੍ਨਾ ਤੇ ਜਾਨਊ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਚੰਤੀ ਨਾਚਨਾ ॥੧॥ kirasaa thae jaanoo har har naachanthee naachanaa ||1|| Know that, through Krishna, the Lord, Har, Har, the dance of creation dances. ||1|| ~SGGS Ji ang 693 1) That krishna is an avtar and avtar of whom? Hari. Vishnu-Hari the four armed Lord and Lord of Lakshmi, holding symbols of power: conch, mace, chakr and lotus. Is there any question that Gurbani is calling as Parabrahm and Ajooni the 10 avatars of Vishnu which includes Krishna as also being Satguru and Yuga avatar for Dwapara Yuga? Why does Gurbani call the Lord Jagannatha Gopaal? Hari? Govind? With flute, dark skin, in Vrindavan with gopis? Vasudeva? Keshava? With four arms? Because clearly the Nirguna is pervading the sargun forms. While that which has form fades in time, the essence of it which is Niranjana remains Ajooni.

Maybe the problem here is your misunderstanding of what Hinduism teaches. Srimad Bhagavatam says the demi-gods prostrate before the inconceivable nirgun Lord. Not that they are the Supreme with no power above them. “The three gunas (qualities) are Rajgun-Brahma Ji, Satgun-Vishnu Ji, and Tamgun Shiv Ji. They have taken birth from Brahm (Kaal) and Prakriti (Durga) and all three are perishable.” ~Shrimad Devi Bhagwat Puran, Page 123 Is there something here which contradicts Gurbani? Then as an older writing, Gurbani is repeating the truth of a Hindu Purana. The Purana says the three Maha Devas of the three gunas are born from Parabrahm (Brahm KAL) and Maya-Shakti (Pakriti Durga) and that they will perish. ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰਿ ਆਕਾਰੁ ਉਪਾਇਆ ॥ nirankaar aakaar oupaaeiaa || The Formless Lord created the universe of form. ਮਾਇਆ ਮੋਹੁ ਹੁਕਮਿ ਬਣਾਇਆ ॥ maaeiaa mohu hukam banaaeiaa || By the Hukam of His Command, He created attachment to Maya. ਆਪੇ ਖੇਲ ਕਰੇ ਸਭਿ ਕਰਤਾ ਸੁਣਿ ਸਾਚਾ ਮੰਨਿ ਵਸਾਇਦਾ ॥੧॥ aapae khael karae sabh karathaa sun saachaa mann vasaaeidhaa ||1|| The Creator Himself stages all the plays; hearing of the True Lord, enshrine Him in your mind. ||1|| ਮਾਇਆ ਮਾਈ ਤ੍ਰੈ ਗੁਣ ਪਰਸੂਤਿ ਜਮਾਇਆ ॥ maaeiaa maaee thrai gun parasooth jamaaeiaa || Maya, the mother, gave birth to the three gunas, the three qualities, ਚਾਰੇ ਬੇਦ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੇ ਨੋ ਫੁਰਮਾਇਆ ॥ chaarae baedh brehamae no furamaaeiaa || and proclaimed the four Vedas to Brahma. ~SGGS Ji ang 1066 ਸੁੰਨਹੁ ਭਵਣ ਰਖੇ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਏ ॥ sunnahu bhavan rakhae liv laaeae || From the Primal Void, He established this world to lovingly dwell upon Him. ਆਪੇ ਕਾਰਣੁ ਕੀਆ ਅਪਰੰਪਰਿ ਸਭੁ ਤੇਰੋ ਕੀਆ ਕਮਾਇਦਾ ॥੧੦॥ aapae kaaran keeaa aparanpar sabh thaero keeaa kamaaeidhaa ||10|| The Infinite Lord Himself created the creation. Everyone acts as You make them act, Lord. ||10|| ਰਜ ਤਮ ਸਤ ਕਲ ਤੇਰੀ ਛਾਇਆ ॥ raj tham sath kal thaeree shhaaeiaa || Your Power is diffused through the three gunas: raajas, taamas and satva. ਜਨਮ ਮਰਣ ਹਉਮੈ ਦੁਖੁ ਪਾਇਆ ॥ janam maran houmai dhukh paaeiaa || Through egotism, they suffer the pains of birth and death. ~SGGS Ji ang 1038 Nothing in Gurbani is contradicting Hindu thought. What is contradictory are the Singh Sabha misrepresentations of Hindu thought in order to create the appearance of contradiction, for example in promoting the idea that all Hindus worship the demi-gods as the Supreme and believe in nothing higher. But where did the Nanakian conception of three gunas arise from? It came from Hindu Mat. Where did Nanakian conception of Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva caught in time and Maya and perishable come from? It came from Hindu Mat. ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ ਆਕਾਰ ਆਪਿ ਨਿਰਗੁਨ ਸਰਗੁਨ ਏਕ ॥ nirankaar aakaar aap niragun saragun eaek || He Himself is formless, and also formed; the One Lord is without attributes, and also with attributes. ~SGGS Ji ang 250 What is the difference between Shiv of the three gunas, and Shiv of the Brahm Kal? Same difference as the Vishnu of the three gunas and the Vishnu Niranjana who is Maha Vishnu, above the gunas. When you read the qualities of the demi-gods, they are caught in time and materiality and subject to delusion of Maya and disease of haumai. But they are also sargun manifestations of an underlying nirgun unity which pervades them. The formless Lord takes on millions of forms, and operates through the sansaar of three gunas, three fundamental forces or emanations, energies. Shiva, Brahma and Vishnu represent qualities of the Divine. So the Divine is pervading in those qualities. The niragun is also sargun. But the sargun is not niragun. The infinite pervades the finite. But the finite can't fathom the limits of the limitless. This is ancient Hindu teaching. It is not unique to Guru Nanak Panth. Even the concepts of nirgun and sargun, where do they come from? Hindu Mat. ਵੇਦ ਕਹਹਿ ਵਖਿਆਣ ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਪਾਵਣਾ ॥ vaedh kehehi vakhiaan anth n paavanaa || The Vedas speak and expound on the Lord, but they do not know His limits. ਪੜਿਐ ਨਾਹੀ ਭੇਦੁ ਬੁਝਿਐ ਪਾਵਣਾ ॥ parriai naahee bhaedh bujhiai paavanaa || Not by studying, but through understanding, is the Lord's Mystery revealed. ~SGGS Ji ang 148 ਚਾਰੇ ਬੇਦ ਕਥਹਿ ਆਕਾਰੁ ॥ chaarae baedh kathhehi aakaar || The four Vedas speak only of the visible forms. ਤੀਨਿ ਅਵਸਥਾ ਕਹਹਿ ਵਖਿਆਨੁ ॥ theen avasathhaa kehehi vakhiaan || They describe and explain the three states of mind, ਤੁਰੀਆਵਸਥਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਤੇ ਹਰਿ ਜਾਨੁ ॥੧॥ thureeaavasathhaa sathigur thae har jaan ||1|| but the fourth state, union with the Lord, is known only through the True Guru. ||1|| ~SGGS Ji ang 154 Gurur Brahmaa Gurur Vishnu Gurur Devo Maheshwarah Guru Saakshaata Parabrahma Tasmai Shri Guruve Namah The Guru is Brahma (The God of Creation) The Guru is Vishnu (The God of Sustenance) The Guru is Shiva (The God of Annihilation) My Salutation to such a Guru, who is verily the Supreme God ਗੁਰੁ ਈਸਰੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਗੋਰਖੁ ਬਰਮਾ ਗੁਰੁ ਪਾਰਬਤੀ ਮਾਈ ॥ gur eesar gur gorakh baramaa gur paarabathee maaee || The Guru is Shiva, the Guru is Vishnu and Brahma; the Guru is Paarvati and Lakhshmi. ~SGGS Ji ang 2 Does this mean that the demi-gods are Supreme? No. But it does mean that the Supreme operates through the demi-gods which reflect His Divine qualities even though imperfectly because in order for nirguna to have form, manifest, it must operate through the pakriti, three gunas empowered by shakti, Maya, and hence suffers from the limitation of being 1. finite and thus deluded by limiting perceptions and, 2. requiring an ego to function in this dimension, haumai. So rather than creation being a failure, or the devas being some kind of evil forces, Gurbani is exploring the vast mystical teachings of Sanatana Dharma which explain the relationship between the limitless and the limited and the only way to be freed from material bondage, 1. a Satguru 2. Gurmantar Naam. And where did these Nanakian concepts of Satguru and Gurmantar Naam come from? They came from Hindu Mat.

Rajaa-ee is an Arabic word from Raza meaning by the Divine Will. In the usage as it relates to Divine Will in relation to command and Rulership of Hukam. And as the question was posed regarding Vaishnavs who had close mystical relationship to Sufi bhaktas and overlapping of teachings, Raza as Divine Will has relationship to Raja as Lord and King. So there is a relationship, although not origin. It is an Arabic word, not Sanskrit. I was trying to show relationship to concepts leading to Guru's charan which in Sanskrit have relationship to the word Raja. As in the phrase "Raja pada" as used for submission and surrender to will of a Guru. ਸੋ ਪਾਤਿਸਾਹੁ ਸਾਹਾ ਪਤਿ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਰਹਣੁ ਰਜਾਈ ॥੧॥੧॥ so paathisaahu saahaa path saahib naanak rehan rajaaee ||1||1|| He is the King, the King of Kings, the Emperor of Kings! Nanak lives in surrender to His Will. ||1||1|| ~SGGS Ji ang 348 ਰਾਜਨ ਰਾਜਿ ਸਦਾ ਬਿਗਸਾਂਤਉ ॥ raajan raaj sadhaa bigasaantho || He is the king of kings, and blossoms forth continually. ~SGGS Ji ang 352 ਰਜਾਈ Rajai ਰਾਜਿ and also ਰਾਜ Raaj clearly in Gurbani there is a relationship to the Kingship of God and His Divine Will, Raja-ee. So there may be a relationship in the sound similarity of the Arabic and Sanskrit words. Relational meanings notwithstanding. I made no claim that Rajai meant Raja. The closest I could come to a Sanskrit equivalent for Hukam in this context was Prapatti, which is Self-surrender or submission (to a Divine Will). The exact Sanskrit equivalent for Hukam would be "adesa" mat-ādeśa — according to my instruction; SB 4.12.42 ādeśa — orders; SB 10.68.34 And has relationship to "Adeesha" or Ruler/King. But this doesn't quite fit the phrase "Hukam Rajai chalna." Which implies submission to the Order of the Divine Will. Sanskrit equivalents with Vaishnavism which is based on surrender to the Guru Shishya relationship is the closest to submission to Divine Will. So "Prapatti" (surrender by throwing oneself under submission) and "Raja pada" (the Lord's feet) reflect the closest association from Vaishnav teachings to the tuuk "Hukam Rajai Chalna Nanak Likiya Nal." ~Bhull chak maaf karni ji

I am not a Vaishnav. But Gurbani is clearly supporting the Vaishnav practices of keeping Naam Simran. Bhair Gurdas Ji vaaran teaches us that Vaheguru Gurmantra comes from beej syllables V for Vishnu, Vasudeyva, H for Har Krishan, G for Gobind, R for Raam. These are the Naams which the Vaishnav sampradayas jap to carry across the ocean of suffering and have mukti in the Kalyuga. Hukam is from Arabic word Hukm, meaning order or command. In Punjabi it means the Order or command of Vaheguru's will. It also means submission and living in harmony with the Divine will. Rajai comes from Sanskrit as there were Rajput rulers who gave commands as Kings. rājā — the king; BG 1.2 pāda-raja — the dust of your feet; CC Antya 16.22 Sanatana Dharma gave the world the tradition of Gur-chela. The word of the Guru is the will of God. His words are pure command for the chela's life. You think there is no following the commands and orders of the Guru as submitting and keeping harmony with God's will in sanatan sampradayas? Where do you think the term "das" came from? Where do you think the tradition of touching feet came from, or drinking charan pahul? It came out of this same heritage and tradition which the Vaishnav's also keep, and which the Sikhs also keep. Or are you implying radical distinction on the basis of simple terminology of an Arabic word? ਹੁਕਮਿ ਰਜਾਈ ਚਲਣਾ ਨਾਨਕ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਨਾਲਿ ॥੧॥ hukam rajaaee chalanaa naanak likhiaa naal ||1|| O Nanak, it is written that you shall obey the Hukam of His Command, and walk in the Way of His Will. ||1|| ~SGGS Ji ang 1 In Sanskrit the word Prapatti means "to throw oneself down." It means to seek refuge at the Guru's feet, self-surrender to Guru's will. You must have prapatti before you can have bhakti. It means submission to the Divine Will. ਸਾਧੂ ਕੀ ਹੋਹੁ ਰੇਣੁਕਾ ਅਪਣਾ ਆਪੁ ਤਿਆਗਿ ॥ saadhhoo kee hohu raenukaa apanaa aap thiaag || Become the dust of the Saints; renounce your selfishness and conceit. 3 Sriraag Guru Arjan Dev ਉਪਾਵ ਸਿਆਣਪ ਸਗਲ ਛਡਿ ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਚਰਣੀ ਲਾਗੁ ॥ oupaav siaanap sagal shhadd gur kee charanee laag || Give up all your schemes and your clever mental tricks, and fall at the Feet of the Guru. ~SGGS Ji ang 45

That did not come across on this thread calling as mo fo's, turds, and cow piss drinkers. The point again is why are you all judging Hindu's for being Hindus? Of course Hindu understanding of Sikhi is coming from a different perspective. Whether or not you personally believe Gurmat is in a neat little box where everyone can understand the same thing, the point remains that if Sikh Jathas can't even agree among themselves what Gurmat is, why bash Hindu's for not having your same opinion? Even Sikh Nirmalay read Gurbani with the same kind of Vedic interpretations. This isn't something new to the Panth, new like a political, RSS struggle. I don't belong to RSS. RSS is like the most over-used attack Sikhs make against anyone who posts from a Hindu perspective. It is the mentality of the perceiver to attack suspiciously or degradingly any Hindu who has a sanatan viewpoint. Yet, sanatan interpretations abound in Janam Sakhis, in Dasm Granth which has translated portion of Devi Mahatmyam, in Prem Sumarag, in Sanatan Sampradayas and their preserved traditions. What are you going to do bash everybody who doesn't read Gurmat with YOUR understanding? With the understanding of YOUR sangat? Of YOUR Tat Khalsa brethren? If you are all so interested in learning about Gurmat, why do you people disrespect it in calling degrading names those Devatay who appear in Gurbani? Did Guruji degrade the Devatay? Is it the Dharm of a Sikh to degrade Devas and disrespect Hindus? Because that is the point of my posting here, in this section: Anti-Sikh propaganda -- Hindu Sikh Unity. So is this what you all believe? Hindu's are the devil, every Hindu perspective, viewpoint and opinion is anti-Gurmat and anti-Sikh? Does this justify you being anti-Hindu or promoting acts of violence and assassination against Hindu dera leaders because in your eyes they are "anti-Sikh?" You see, it is a concern. Because what, he is a dedhari guru in a sanatan sampradaya? Because he is Chamara? Because he accepts traditional gestures of respect such as matathek? Because you believe Hindus and Sanatan Sikhs have no right to have Guru Granh Sahib in their mandirs and Gurdheras? For this you are greater than God to judge without trial and assassinate? Why do you people hate so much? Oh really? This trashing Hindus and sanatan Sikhs all the time is hatred. It certainly isn't nirmata. Maybe there's a disconnect between what the ideal is and what the actuality is. I also keep kesas. And the Kakkars come from the Rajputs. So does surname of Singh. You aren't distinct at all. Shaivas and some Shaktas also keep kesas. It's an ancient yogic tradition to tie jura over the dasm duaara to form a mudra/seal and do Naam simran japo to vibrate the Gurmantra to raise the praan through the shushumna nadi, pierce the chakrs and open the third eye/brahmgyan, and open the tenth gate, sahasrara chakra to have darshan of the Divine. No distinctiveness at all, except most modern Sikhs have lost understanding of WHY they keep their traditions.

I see Sufism as an offshoot of Sanatana Dharma and not anything like fundamentalist Islam, so I have no problem with them. Sufism is the continuation of Sant Mat in those communities of Hindus who were forcibly converted by the Moghuls, and a large body of brilliant Kaula tantra Shaivite mysticism exists in it's symbolism. Sufis are the sons and daughters of people like Bhai Mardana, and often had Shaiva and Vaishnavite Gurus and became their own lineage. Of course there are deluded and abusive people in every religious sect. But I accept Sufism as related to Sanatana Dharma and generally more open minded. Sufi Enneagram is related to the gupt teachings of the chakrs and the yogic methods for opening them. Sufi Dhikkr is very similar to pranayam Naam Simran, and certain Sufi sects have bhakti trance practices where they become wajd very similar to Namdharis. The relationship is due to the historical intermingling of communities during the Mughal invasions. Unlike traditional Muslims, Sufi's are actually very mystical and yogic in orientation. for that they are persecuted by traditionalist Muslims. During the times of the Guru Sahibaan, people would go into samadhi and mastana states due to the power of the Raag Kirtan and Naam Simran. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIns9cbvsUc

Kaljug: eats chatka Devatay for breakfast Now correct me if I'm mistaken, Devatas kill the demons. So who would be boasting about killing devatay hmmm? Just a thought. ਗੁਰ ਸੇਵਾ ਤੇ ਹਰਿ ਪਾਈਐ ਜਾ ਕਉ ਨਦਰਿ ਕਰੇਇ ॥ gur saevaa thae har paaeeai jaa ko nadhar karaee || Serving the Guru, the Lord is obtained, when He bestows His Glance of Grace. ਮਾਣਸ ਤੇ ਦੇਵਤੇ ਭਏ ਧਿਆਇਆ ਨਾਮੁ ਹਰੇ ॥ maanas thae dhaevathae bheae dhhiaaeiaa naam harae || They are transformed from humans into angels, meditating on the Naam, the Name of the Lord. ~SGGS Ji ang 90 But anyone can clearly read the Gurbani when it's quoted isn't it so? Propaganda is claiming falsely that Gurbani says something and no one can find it. With respect different people have different mentalities and will understand things differently. Can you please show me in Gurbani where the Devas are evil, mythological, or something to ridicule? Thank you. And this is not the same as part of the gunas of material manifestation which is overrun by Maya. Because that has a symbolism which relates to our own nature in sansaar and delimited by time and suffering from bondage to the three gunas which leads to haumai. The traditional sanatan view is that the devas exist within the human body, just as different devatas exist in musical raags. So on one level you are dealing with concepts of the creation yet misconstruing them to mean devatas are some kind of demons against the Lord, when the opposite is true. There are millions upon millions of uncountable worlds. And there are millions of devatay for them. Because devatay exist in sansaar and are part of the creation, they will have an end, a limit. Even the Brahmaloka will end. But that which is beyond Time is the nirguna. It cannot be perceived by the human intellect or human senses. This is why the perceivable aspect of the Divine is sargun, just as Gurshabda comes to our reality from the anehad Naad, from nirguna. "Refer specifically to the tuks that Matheen has quoted, and see the tuk that refers to Krishan as a worm." Devatas and avataras also come from the Divine Light and Sound and have different roles. Of course where is the corpse of Ramachandra? And Krishna is dust like a mere worm. This is speaking to the finite nature. Guru Gobind Singh Ji's body also turned to dust. Guruji said, "Whoever calls me as God will burn in hell." Where is the physical form of Guruji? It is long gone. Whoever is yearning for it will pass away with it. That is my interpretation of what Guruji means. But this is a world of duality and things can have two meanings. Just as there can be a Shiva who is different from Sadashiva, a Brahma who is different from Parabrahma, a Vishnu who is different from Mahavishnu... So the physical sargun swaroop is not the totality. It is part of the world of the gunas, of manifest forms, it is finite. It will die. To worship the limitation is the equivalent of worshipping stones. But Guruji is exhorting us to worship that which is beyond time, beyond failure, beyond disintegration. A Satguru has the quality of being merged in his consciousness with the God. So it isn't the physical swaroop of Guruji we worship but the Jyothi Jyot, and the Shabada, the Divine Presence. Because these sargun forms of the Divine vibrate from the nirguna and this is what has the ability to lead us to Mukti. That's why Naam is so critical. Nama Japa has the capability of raising our consciousness to Turiya state because we become attuned with the Sound-Light vibration. अतो विन्दुरतो नादो रूपमस्मादतो रसः। प्रवर्तन्तेऽचिरेणैव क्षोभकत्वेन देहिनः॥१०॥ Ato vindurato nādo rūpamasmādato rasaḥ| Pravartante'cireṇaiva kṣobhakatvena dehinaḥ||10|| From this (Unmeṣa) (átaḥ... átaḥ... asmāt átaḥ), Vindú --divine light-- (vindúḥ)1, Nādá --divine sound-- (nādáḥ), Rūpá --divine form-- (rūpám) (and) Rása --divine taste-- (rásaḥ) soon (acireṇa evá) appear (pravartante) to an embodied soul (dehinaḥ) as a disturbing factor (kṣobhakatvena)||10|| 1 It can also be written "Bindú". Spanda Karikas Look closely at this quote from the Shiva Sutras about the Divine manifestations. this is exactly what is described in Gurbani as being able to change the consciousness of man through the power of Gurmantra. ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦੀ ਮਨੁ ਰੰਗਿਆ ਰਸਨਾ ਪ੍ਰੇਮ ਪਿਆਰਿ ॥ gur sabadhee man rangiaa rasanaa praem piaar || Their minds are imbued with the Word of the Guru's Shabad; the Love of their Beloved is on their tongues. ~SGGS Ji ang 36 It is just like in physics which speaks of wave-particle duality. A particle is less than the dust. It is nothing, less than a worm. But the subatomic particle has a dual nature. It is more than meets the eye. It is also a vibrating wave of energy which is infinite in all directions. ਸਹਸ ਪਦ ਬਿਮਲ ਨਨ ਏਕ ਪਦ ਗੰਧ ਬਿਨੁ ਸਹਸ ਤਵ ਗੰਧ ਇਵ ਚਲਤ ਮੋਹੀ ॥੨॥ sehas padh bimal nan eaek padh gandhh bin sehas thav gandhh eiv chalath mohee ||2|| You have thousands of Lotus Feet, and yet You do not have even one foot. You have no nose, but you have thousands of noses. This Play of Yours entrances me. ||2|| ਸਭ ਮਹਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਹੈ ਸੋਇ ॥ sabh mehi joth joth hai soe || Amongst all is the Light-You are that Light. ਤਿਸ ਦੈ ਚਾਨਣਿ ਸਭ ਮਹਿ ਚਾਨਣੁ ਹੋਇ ॥ this dhai chaanan sabh mehi chaanan hoe || By this Illumination, that Light is radiant within all. ਗੁਰ ਸਾਖੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਪਰਗਟੁ ਹੋਇ ॥ gur saakhee joth paragatt hoe || Through the Guru's Teachings, the Light shines forth. ~SGGS Ji ang 13 deva-māyām — diverse energies of the Lord; SB 2.7.42 deva — living energy; SB 3.6.7 deva-māyā — the external energy of the Lord; SB 4.7.2 deva — persons coming from the heavenly lokas; SB 4.21.26 sarva-deva-mayam — the all-pervading Supreme Personality of Godhead, the master of all the demigods; SB 9.16.20 Can you see a parallel with Gurbani definitions of the devatas as subordinate to the nirguna examining the Sanskrit terms from Srimad Bhagavatum? But none of it is disrespectful of Devatas, even while acknowledging these shining ones are not the Highest Light. But they do come from the Highest Light. ਸੁਅਸਤਿ ਆਥਿ ਬਾਣੀ ਬਰਮਾਉ ॥ suasath aathh baanee baramaao || I bow to the Lord of the World, to His Word, to Brahma the Creator. ਸਤਿ ਸੁਹਾਣੁ ਸਦਾ ਮਨਿ ਚਾਉ ॥ sath suhaan sadhaa man chaao || He is Beautiful, True and Eternally Joyful. ~SGGS Ji ang 4 ਗਣ ਗੰਧਰਬ ਸਿਧ ਅਰੁ ਸਾਧਿਕ ॥ gan gandhharab sidhh ar saadhhik || The servants of God, the celestial singers, the Siddhas and the seekers, ਸੁਰਿ ਨਰ ਦੇਵ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾਦਿਕ ॥ sur nar dhaev breham brehamaadhik || the angelic and divine beings, Brahma and those like Brahma, ਚਤੁਰ ਬੇਦ ਉਚਰਤ ਦਿਨੁ ਰਾਤਿ ॥ chathur baedh oucharath dhin raath || and the four Vedas proclaim, day and night, ਅਗਮ ਅਗਮ ਠਾਕੁਰੁ ਆਗਾਧਿ ॥ agam agam thaakur aagaadhh || that the Lord and Master is inaccessible, unapproachable and unfathomable. ਗੁਨ ਬੇਅੰਤ ਬੇਅੰਤ ਭਨੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਕਹਨੁ ਨ ਜਾਈ ਪਰੈ ਪਰਾਤਿ ॥੨॥੨॥੩੫॥ gun baeanth baeanth bhan naanak kehan n jaaee parai paraath ||2||2||35|| Endless, endless are His Glories, says Nanak; they cannot be described - they are beyond our reach. ~SGGS Ji ang 535 The discussion on what Gurmat thinks of Devatas has already taken place - on this website, and in real life with your RSS ancestors. I suggest you conduct a search or perhaps just start off by reading Hum Hindu Nahin by Kahn Singh Nabha. Your ancestors lost this war of words a long time ago. So are you saying this thread is closed? The discussion is over? Everything that you think needs to be said has already been said? That doesn't seem right. My posts are going through. Maybe you're wrong veer ji. Tell me something, what would I gain reading "Hum Hindu Nahin" the famous Singh Sabhia tract? It is a political interpretation. Guru Nanak Dev Ji said, "I am not a Hindu, I am not a Mussalman." But He also did not say "I, the Guruji am a Sikh." When Guruji said this, He was speaking from Turiya consciousness which is beyond the duality of divisions. He was speaking from being merged in God-consciousness, where He has no need for external rituals or religious acts because He is already One with the Divine! But it is NOT saying, "I, Guru Nanak Dev Ji have started a whole new religion because I thought this world needed another one." Can you explain please the difference between Mahesh and Maheshvara? Or Brahma and Parabrahma? Krishan is an avatar, not a deva. Hanuman is neither a deva nor an avatar. So you are confusing apples and oranges. Krishan, as an avatar, is Satguru for the age of Dwapara Yuga according to Gurbani. And as Satguru, He is merged in consciousness with the nirgun Totality which is called by many names and qualities but is Ajooni Saibhung. ਸਤਜੁਗਿ ਤੈ ਮਾਣਿਓ ਛਲਿਓ ਬਲਿ ਬਾਵਨ ਭਾਇਓ ॥ sathajug thai maaniou shhaliou bal baavan bhaaeiou || In the Golden Age of Sat Yuga, You were pleased to deceive Baal the king, in the form of a dwarf. ਤ੍ਰੇਤੈ ਤੈ ਮਾਣਿਓ ਰਾਮੁ ਰਘੁਵੰਸੁ ਕਹਾਇਓ ॥ thraethai thai maaniou raam raghuvans kehaaeiou || In the Silver Age of Traytaa Yuga, You were called Raam of the Raghu dynasty. ਦੁਆਪੁਰਿ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਮੁਰਾਰਿ ਕੰਸੁ ਕਿਰਤਾਰਥੁ ਕੀਓ ॥ dhuaapur kirasan muraar kans kirathaarathh keeou || In the Brass Age of Dwaapur Yuga, You were Krishna; You killed Mur the demon and saved Kans. ਉਗ੍ਰਸੈਣ ਕਉ ਰਾਜੁ ਅਭੈ ਭਗਤਹ ਜਨ ਦੀਓ ॥ ougrasain ko raaj abhai bhagatheh jan dheeou || You blessed Ugrasain with a kingdom, and You blessed Your humble devotees with fearlessness. ਕਲਿਜੁਗਿ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਣੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰੁ ਅੰਗਦੁ ਅਮਰੁ ਕਹਾਇਓ ॥ kalijug pramaan naanak gur angadh amar kehaaeiou || In the Iron Age, the Dark Age of Kali Yuga, You are known and accepted as Guru Nanak, Guru Angad and Guru Amar Das. ਸ੍ਰੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਰਾਜੁ ਅਬਿਚਲੁ ਅਟਲੁ ਆਦਿ ਪੁਰਖਿ ਫੁਰਮਾਇਓ ॥੭॥ sree guroo raaj abichal attal aadh purakh furamaaeiou ||7|| The sovereign rule of the Great Guru is unchanging and permanent, according the Command of the Primal Lord God. ||7|| ~SGGS Ji ang 1390 A deva may only be a demi-god. But an Avatar is One with the Divine nirgun Lord Himself. According to Gurbani, Bhagavan Krishna is Satguru for the age of Dwapara Yuga. How can any Sikh disrespect Him?

Yes