BhagatSingh

Thank you. If you notice Baba ji's turban it is a puratan dumalla from the early 1700s. Btw I think Banda ji's choice was mostly due to the fact that the Mughals would often wear blue. ਨੀਲ ਬਸਤ੍ਰ ਲੇ ਕਪੜੇ ਪਹਿਰੇ ਤੁਰਕ ਪਠਾਣੀ ਅਮਲੁ ਕੀਆ ॥ Wearing blue clothes, the Turks and Pathans (Muslim groups) ruled (over India). If you look at this Sikh painting from the 1800s, it shows the Mughals or Afghanis wearing blue and the Sikhs wearing all kinds of random colours.

Yep. Oils is what I originally started with. I have several oil paintings in my personal collection, which were painted when I was very young. Although they were on-display at the exhibit in Brampton, they can not seen in any of the photos in the sikhnet article. Later when I grew up and went to uni, I moved to digital painting because it required neither set-up nor clean-up. It was easy to slip into after a full day at uni.

Thanks for the kind words Lucky! I think you put it all so wonderfully. Feels good :D

Guru Arjun Dev ji's Martyrdom painting was actually inspired by that painting, which is done by the famous Indian artist Sobha Singh. It was also inspired by the famous Italian renaissance artist Caravaggio. East meets west.

Rock what you think about this stuff?

Holy shit, a possession!

This is good. Imo your body is getting used to becoming very relaxed. There are also other explanations but this one works for me. Keep going.

Nope. Post that sakhi here.

Good message by Sant ji - to carry shastars at all times, since God himself carried shastar. Even Tulsidas ji refused to accept the image of God without shastar. Awesome! However it's such a click bait title lol. I thought it would be about something else. hehe On Ram Chandra ji's Bow Ram Chandra ji's bow was called Sharang ਸਾਰੰਗ / ਸਾਰਿੰਗ Thus Ram Chandra ji came to be known as Wielder of Sharang Bow. In Guru Granth Sahib written as ਸਾਰੰਗਪਾਣੀ, ਸਾਰਿੰਗਧਰ, etc. Bhagat Kabir ji said - ਤੋਹਿ ਚਰਨ ਮਨੁ ਲਾਗੋ ਸਾਰਿੰਗਧਰ ॥ In your feet, I dwell, o Wielder of the Sharang bow. ਸੋ ਮਿਲੈ ਜੋ ਬਡਭਾਗੋ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ Those who meet you have great fortune. Bhagat Tulsidas ji had great fortune and great bhagti that he met Ram Chandra ji. I always remember what Bhagat Tulsidas Ji said - ਹੋਈ ਹੈ ਸੋਹੀ ਜੋ ਰਾਮ ਰਚੇ ਰਾਖਾ Whatever happens is by the will of Ram Chandra ji, the protector. In this manner, he came to know Ram and was inspired to write the Ram Charitra Manas. In his version of the Ramayan, he made many changes to Bhagat Valmiki ji's Ramayan, according to this own feelings and devotion/ shraddha.

Basically Amardeep (moderator) thought you were someone else because your IP address matched that other person who was causing mischief. Realizing his mistake, Amardeep (moderator) apologized. Bye Bye

Looks good! One must go deeper and try to experience it.

@das I don't worry about whether I can control my mind or not. That it not my job. That is the job of Hari within, who will control it. I just worry about the process. I focus on carrying out the methods that are prescribed in my favourite books such as Guru Granth Sahib and Bhagvad Gita, etc. Performing actions without seeking fruits of that action - in this manner one merges with Krishna. If you make 'merging with Krishna' into a goal/fruit that you start seeking then you are not able to do karm yog. So what Krishan ji is describing is not a goal. It is a process. He is saying focus on the process do not worry about the end result. I am always doing this process whether I am in a debate or discussion or other aspects of my life, and whether or not my mind is under control. If it's under control - I am still doing the process. If it's out of control - I am still doing the process. If I start seeking fruit - I am still focusing on the process. If i notice i am not seeking fruits - i am still focusing on the process. If I am not focusing on the process, then I will try to focus on the process - Karm yog. On Discussion A discussion can also arouse ego. If someone agrees with you and you guys get along and discuss different things. That can also inspire ego. That is because doing anything can inspire ego identity. Ego identity is not attached to any particular actions. Any action can inspire it. If someone eats, that may inspire ego. If they go on fast, that may inspire ego. "Murti pooja is wrong, I won't do it." That can also inspire ego. "Murti pooja is fine, i will do it." That can also inspire ego. Ahankar/ego can arise from any action. Ahankar can arise from good actions such as donating, doing hardwork and simran/naam japna. Actions which we think are good, which should ideally diminish ahankar, can actually produce more ahankar. So ahankar/ego must be watched at all times. I make that the process on which I fixate, that is, watching my ahankar in action inside me, at all times. Then it flows into all my dicussions and debates and other aspects of my life.

On the Benefit of Debates People do not debate correctly. There are lots of benefits for both parties... if one debates correctly! For me the benefits are - 1. Writing practice, debating practice, clear communication practice. Then when my belief is challenged - 2. I must review my belief, find more knowledge, find out holes in my knowledge and see its strengths and weaknesses. Like how one tests a newly made car by viciously crashing it again and again. When my knowledge is challenged then my sense of self is challenged - 3. Can I maintain a cooperative sense of self with the other person? Can I see them as a part of me when I debate? Other people are like mirrors to yourself. You can see your ahankar through them. I can see my ahankar when debating with you, and I can watch it and put a spotlight on it and study how it operates. I can diminish it and become humble or I can inflate it so that it is huge and become pure ahankar. Can I lose my sense of self and simply perform the debate without becoming attached? Can I conserve most of my mental energy by being pure in my thoughts and inner experience? Karm Yog - Bhagvad Gita Performing actions without seeking fruits of that action - in this manner one merges with Krishna. Performing actions with a pure mind To argue with another person but hold them as a part of yourself - collaborative mindset. To observe your ahankar and let it go. Drop the ahankar and be pure in the mind. To be detached from the oucome of the debate, to be detached from winning or losing. To become detached from your beliefs, your previously held experience and knowledge. To see the other person in their full expression and to express yourself fully, without fear or inhibition, without acting out of social conditioning. Full expression - Taking action without being stifled by anything, not even yourself. In this manner the sense of self is eradicated in a debate and a pure being emerges within. In Bhagvad Gita that pure being is known as Krishna, who resides in everyone.

There you go. I can confirm. Also it's important for the body to become slow as well. One I thing I do is deliberately slow down my breath, my body movement, and become extremely focused on the slow movement of the body. When the body slows, it slows the mind, which is attached to the body.

(#4) It's a wrong translation because as far as I know, Maya is never referred to as Amrit in Guru Granth Sahib. Amrit is not "sweet maya". Prof Sahib is wrong there.

@paapiman That line only has one meaning. Your 1,2,3,4, are all describing the same thing in different words, that is, the very essence of spirituality. Do you see that?

@Rock That's interesting, most of my meditation happens from midnight-4am and I have seen dramatic changes but that might also be because I try to do it all the time. Back in 2011, I would often stay up till 6-7am. And just sit in my balcony and enjoy the peaceful morning with birds chirping and cats chasing squirrels. Nothing else mattered.

Ok that's like the main point of life. We should be doing that all of the time. Here we are discussing beliefs and philosophies held by people that matter to us. In this conversation, the main point is to find out what those people believed. We don't have to pick one between main point of life and main point of dicussion. We can bring the main point of life into the main point of the discussion, and merge the two and act from that place. Let me tell you something because this is a good thread to bring it up. It is relevant to the subject of this thread. It's like what Krishan ji said - Do not feel discouraged, pick up the sword and fight Arjun! Even if you must fight your own people, it is your dharam! You must fulfill your dharam without desire for the fruit. In a debate, your dharam is to debate. You must argue with all your resources without seeking any particular outcome. If you are wrong after trying your hardest, then be radically honest and admit it and learn from it. Ask questions. If the other person is wrong after you try your hardest to convince them so, if they admit it then great but if they don't admit it, then you let it go and move on. Karm Yog Performing actions without seeking fruits of that action - in this manner one merges with Krishna. http://www.bhagavad-gita.org/Gita/verse-02-47.html Guru Ramanuj's commentary on this verse - Bhagavad-Gita: chapter 2, verse 49 Actions performed with fruitive motivations are far inferior to actions performed as a matter of duty. The mind of those whose actions are performed as a matter of duty are not disturbed or unbalanced by delusions of rewards gained or lost. The activities performed in spiritual intelligence removes all suffering in the world and leads to liberation from the material existence. Contrarily activities performed for the acquisition of rewards assuredly results in suffering and affliction in the material existence. Phala-hetavah are those who sole motivation is dictated be the prospects of reward. It should be understood that such living entities are krpanah or pitiable due to the fact but acting in this way they are imprisoned in the material existence unable to attain their spiritual nature. Actually on second thought, I think you have just grown tired of this discussion. If that's the case, then have some rest, we shall discuss this another time if you so wish.

Why is that?

That's the problem with some of Prof Sahib's translations. They seem right to an untrained eye, however in actuality, they are quite wrong, and lead to wrong understanding of verses, individual lines. On a larger scale, they accumulate and lead to the wrong understanding of the author's belief system. This lead me to create the Botched Translations Series. I'll give you an example of a verse Prof Sahib translates incorrectly. This will be the next botched translation in the series. ਥਾਲ ਵਿਚਿ ਤਿੰਨਿ ਵਸਤੂ ਪਈਓ ਸਤੁ ਸੰਤੋਖੁ ਵੀਚਾਰੋ ॥ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਨਾਮੁ ਠਾਕੁਰ ਕਾ ਪਇਓ ਜਿਸ ਕਾ ਸਭਸੁ ਅਧਾਰੋ ॥ Can you spot the inaccuracy in his translation of this shabad? Can you see the correct translation of this shabad and how it is different to Prof Sahib's translation?

This I agree with. This type of duality is also mentioned in Guru Granth Sahib. This is not mentioned in Guru Granth Sahib. And it is not mentioned by Kabir ji. Kabir ji says "Hari had sex with Maya, which means, he implanted his consciousness into matter, thus creating living things. That's why Hari is ghat ghat vasi, residing everywhere. That's why Hari is antaryami, residing in each body." You are ignoring all this. And for Kabir ji that's all it is. Some of them yes. But not Kabir ji. The ones that do are part of Shaiv philosophy. Shaiv philosophy is not the discussion here. For Kabir ji Kaal is nothing but death and sometimes time. Kabir ji does not prescribe to Shaiv Philosophy. He doesn't care about it. You have this all wrong. Hari or Vishnu or Ram/Krishna is NOT an incarnation of a negative power. Hari, the totality, which is ultimately consciousness or spirit, is perceived as Maya, as a duality. Hari/Vishnu is referring to Supreme Consciousness. Maya/Lakshmi is referring to the material world (which is illusory, jagat mithya). Then Hari (supreme consciousness, spirit, soul) implants himself into Maya (matter) this gives rise to living beings. So we can only exist if there is soul in matter. If the soul departs matter is dead. This is what Kabir ji is saying. For Kabir ji, kaal is simply death, and sometimes time. It is part of Maya, it is part of the world. It does not exist outside the world. It does not exist in a samadhi - where Hari, Vishnu, Ram, the Akal Purakh, Waheguru is perceived. This is not the case. Krishan ji took Arjun to Sachkhand. Even showed Arjun his Parm Atma swaroop. Ram Chandra ji took Hanuman ji and all of his other vanar bhakts like Angad, to Sachkhand. His kingdom was known as Ram Raj, which is a synonym of Sachkhand in Guru Granth Sahib. So you are ignoring the canon to make your assertions. I am not sure where you are getting your ideas from they are not part of Guru Granth Sahib and they are not even part of Bhagvad Gita or Ramayan. I think you might be confusing Anurag Sagar concepts with the concepts in Guru Granth Sahib (and with the concepts in Gita and Ramayan). Kabir ji is not saying what you think he is saying, at least not in Guru Granth Sahib. Remember Anurag sagar was compiled much later. I tend to go by Guru Granth Sahib when judging the authenticity of Kabir ji's bani because it was compiled close to Kabir ji's lifetime.

Nice! That is right. Jugraj Singh of Basics of Sikhi mentioned that too, that's the first time I had heard it in a mainstream setting. That dude seems pretty chill in general. He even recognized and mentioned that there were many Gurus in India before, during and after our 10 gurus time. He seemed to have a bit of awareness of the context of our panth within the range of panths in India. Anyway you convinced me to give this book a shot. However I wasn't at all convinced to read that article you sent. If you want you can make a thread on it and share your views on the article, that would be cool.

@paapiman Amrit only has one meaning, which is being used in different contexts. Let's see if you can guess what that meaning is.

Haha! so true So just the right amount of bothered. Bothered enough to post and talk about it, but not so bothered as to be attached to the conversation. The sweet spot