BhagatSingh

57 minutes ago, Soulfinder said:

ਪੂਰੇ ਤਾਲ ਨਿਹਾਲੇ ਸਾਸ ॥ ਵਾ ਕੇ ਗਲੇ ਜਮ ਕਾ ਹੈ ਫਾਸ ॥੩॥

Pūrė ṯĝl nihĝlė sĝs. vĝ kė galė jam kĝ hai fĝs. ॥3॥

She dances to the beat, exciting the breath of those who watch her.

But the noose of the Messenger of Death is around her neck. ॥3॥

(SGGS Ang 1165)

Sant Kabir ji says -

ਜਨਨੀ ਜਾਨਤ ਸੁਤੁ ਬਡਾ ਹੋਤੁ ਹੈ ਇਤਨਾ ਕੁ ਨ ਜਾਨੈ ਜਿ ਦਿਨ ਦਿਨ ਅਵਧ ਘਟਤੁ ਹੈ ॥ ਮੋਰ ਮੋਰ ਕਰਿ ਅਧਿਕ ਲਾਡੁ ਧਰਿ ਪੇਖਤ ਹੀ ਜਮਰਾਉ ਹਸੈ ॥੧॥

The mother thinks her son is becoming big, but she does not realize that his life is getting shorter and shorter. She loves her son but Death just looks at her affection for her son and laughs.

So should mothers stop caring for their sons?

Death is hovering around above all our activities -

We post on Sikhawareness forums, but the noose of the Yamraj is around our neck, tightening with every breath.

We go driving to work along the way, but the death is counting down our days.

Should we stop posting on Sikh awareness and stop driving and working and everything we do?

No

Guru Sahib is simply saying to be mindful of our death at all times.

Try to understand what Gurbani is teaching rather than using it as ammunition to advance your argument.

On 6/3/2018 at 5:17 PM, amardeep said:

Bhagat Singh: There is a long and stron tradition behind the Taksal, - their organization however has changed over the centuries. During the Misl and Maharaja period they were known as the Giani samprada or Shaheed Samprada (due to their links with Baba Deep Singh who was the mukhi of the Shahedi misl). They used to be more of a decentralised organisation going from village to village, whereas today they have headquarters etc. Many nirmale in history have wrongfully been labelled nirmale, when they were in fact part of the Giani/Taksal Samprada - the most famous being Kavi Santokh Singh and also Badan Singh (if I remember correctly) who wrote the Faridkot Teeka.

Their main claim to fame has been the tradition of santhia and arth going back to Guru Gobind Singh through Bhai Mani Singh.

Bhaji, thanks for the background info. It's good to know.

However.

Let's take the first two akshar Guru Granth Sahib.

Ik Onkar

Why are our "scholars" pronouncing this as Ik Oaankar?

Anyone who knows even the basics of Gurmukhi knows that this pronunciation is wrong.

On 6/3/2018 at 7:03 PM, paapiman said:

Within the first 5 Pauris of Sri Japjee Sahib (excluding Sri Mool Mantar), there are more than 25 tips that have to be followed for correct pronunciation.

Please list them out. Let's see what we are working with.

On 6/3/2018 at 4:41 PM, Singh123456777 said:

Looks like it would destroy your ego if you go see someone who actually has real knowledge, campared to you. Thats why you dont want to see Gyani ji or Baba Ji, cause your ego would get bruised

I already said I would love to talk to them.

I'll be the first to admit I don't know everything. My knowledge regarding this is a work in progress. I am constantly learning and the information I find is like finding crude oil. That's why I am here trying to refine that oil by look at all possible angles of attack, all possible weaknesses in the hypothesis, and taking guidance from Akal Purakh sahib himself.

Singh, it is very easy to kick someone who is already down, and who is trying to get up on their feet and find their way in to new territory.

On 6/3/2018 at 3:43 PM, paapiman said:

Take it as a question. Answer - yes or no. If yes, please provide details. Hope that makes sense.

"Please provide name of any Mahapurakh/Sant (Sikh one) who has stated this or encouraged this. In the op, Sant Jarnail Singh jee Khalsa Bhindranwale termed Bhangra as Neechpuna."

The way Bhangra is normally done in parties is neechpuna. So he is correct there.

But if Sant ji said the art of Bhangra itself is neechpuna then he is wrong, and I would like a word with him.

But this idea of whether mahapurakh has said something...

Let's do a thought experiement.

Suppose Guru Nanak Dev ji comes back and makes a post that Dance is A OK for Sikhs.

You read his comment and you do not recognize him.

And you say "no" and list all your arguments.

In that scenario -

What would Guru Sahib have to say to you, in order to convince you that he doesn't think dancing or Bhangra is an issue here?

17 hours ago, paapiman said:

Taksali Santheya is no easy task.

What makes you say that?

Taksali way of pronunciation seems easy to me. Maybe not for those who grew up in the west, but it's very easy for a punjabi speaker.

17 hours ago, paapiman said:

Daas would suggest that you make a list of your concerns regarding Taksaali Santheya and then go discus those with the Mahapurakhs mentioned above.

Sure. But first I want to poke as many holes in to my own theory as possible.

Because if my hypothesis is wrong, then there is no point in going higher up.

I want to make sure it stands from all possible angles of attack, only then it's worth sharing with scholars.

So for that I need your help.

@dalsingh101

That's not an argument.

18 hours ago, paapiman said:

Please provide name of any Mahapurakh/Sant (Sikh one) who has stated this or encouraged this. In the op, Sant Jarnail Singh jee Khalsa Bhindranwale termed Bhangra as Neechpuna.

And neither is this.

18 hours ago, paapiman said:

Sikhism highly discourages dancing. It doesn't matter if it's done for recreational purposes or for spiritual purposes.

Gatka as it is performed in nagar kirtans is also a dance form.

17 hours ago, Soulfinder said:

But in the meantime here is a video by Veer Jagraj Singh Basics of Sikhi as you mentioned dancing and monkeys. 

What bhai sahib is talking about exists in the body also.

The 5 thieves and thought forms which pull us  in different directions also have bodily  components.

This is because we are embodied souls.

The 5 Thieves are self-preservation tactic of the body.

So to orient the body and have it dance in tune with the order of Akal Purakh sahib is key.

19 hours ago, samurai2 said:

can you provide a reference that Guru Gobind Singh Ji did not provide one way to pronounce it..??

@paapiman

You guys are the ones making that claim that Guru Gobind Singh ji taught it your way.

So the onus is on you guys to provide evidence that he did.

On 6/2/2018 at 1:11 PM, samurai2 said:

I need clarification on something, which i think is very important in me understanding where you are coming from. 

When you write Hari , and pronounce it. Is the end pronounced 'ee'... the same as the following in the english language. All spelt with "i" but pronounced as ee

Like I said the sihari at the end of Hari or any other Siharis in general, they are pronounced as the i in Tin.

It is the short e sound.

For example, I pronounce - immediately as  ਇਮੀਡਿਏਟਲਿ

The stress is on the mme so it is a Bihari. All other e sounds are siharis.

I pronounce that y in immediately as a short e sound (Sihari). But in some accents, that y is pronounced as an - eh - like immediateleh - similar to how you and paapiman pronounce Siharis.

Which is different from - Bee - pronounced as  - ਬੀ

Different Punjabi speakers that come from different geographical locations, they have their own way to pronounce consonants and vowels.

You and Paapiman thinking that your way to pronounce Sihari is the correct way, is ignoring your own inherent dialectical bias.

1 hour ago, amardeep said:

People who do Bhangra doesn’t claim it’s an act of worshiping god. So they would probably agree with this verse and continue their dance 

Actually you can do Bhagti while dancing or doing bhangra.

While you are performing the steps, your mind is free to do naam simaran.

So what about ਨਚਿਐ ਟਪਿਐ ਭਗਤਿ ਨ ਹੋਇ ॥?

This verse is referring to the Monkey mind.

The dancing mind, meaning the mind that is moving from one thought form to the next, cannot do Bhagti.

We know this is referring to the mind, because right in the next tuk it says -

ਸਬਦਿ ਮਰੈ ਭਗਤਿ ਪਾਏ ਜਨੁ ਸੋਇ ॥੩॥

When you kill your mind in the Anhad Shabad then Bhagti is obtained.

@Lucky knows all about how to die in the Anhad Shabad. He posts about it in meditation experience thread.

@paapiman

@Soulfinder

@dalsingh101

Farid Kote Teeka and Mahan Kosh are a deadly combination for studying Guru Granth Sahib.

7 hours ago, angy15 said:

You can love him or hate him.But he attracts big gathering.His Deewans attracts more sangats than Damdami Taksal or any other dera .I have attended one of his divans and  i did not find his speeches anti gurmat though durning his speech he occasionally blames SGPC and Damdami Taksal for some past  incidents otherwise there was no anti gurmat prachaar. If it all he is Guru Nindak  or spoken against Gurmat let it come in front of Akal Takht  and let it take a decision. 

Ang Sang Waheguru 

I am not familiar with his speeches but these videos are purposely created to distort.

Creator of the video, just takes one line out of context.

In the first video he says, "Naam abhyas is not everything."

Ok, so where is the rest of that speech? What other things does he add to Naam abhyas?

No mention of that. No context.

As Sikhs, we should already know from the 3 Pillars of Sikhism that Naam abhyas is not everything, and that there is Sharing Wealth and Wisdom, and Truthful actions that go with Naam Abhyas.

Did Dhadhrianwale say you shouldn't do Naam Abhyas? because that would be something.

If so, where did he say that?

31 minutes ago, paapiman said:

That might be true, but we should only be interested in how Sri Satguru jee (Tenth Master) taught his Sikhs. 

That is, Sihari should be pronounced as eh (in most cases), according to Muharnee.

ਹਰਿ  should be pronounced as Har-eh, not as Hari.

You are pronouncing Sihari like Lav, whereas for the rest of us Sihari is defined as a chhoti Bihari and Lan is a chhota Dulav. 

But like I explained earlier, dialect and personal preference change that.

Sihari is pronounced in two ways -

Some people say Sikh, some people say Sekh.

Some people say Vich, some people say Vech.

Some people say Pind, some people say Pend.

If you or your parents are/were from a Pind, you are probably saying the latter - Sekh, Vech, Pend.

The rest of us say it like the former, Sikh, Vich, Pind.

There are many dialects like this that pronounce letters and consonants differently.

For example with the word - ਭਾਈ

Some say PPai, some say Bhai, some say BBai

Which version do you say? 

Guru Gobind Singh ji did not teach any one way to pronounce it.

I was taught in Muharni that Sihari is pronounced as Chhoti Bihari and not as a Lav, which is a Chhotta Dulav.

But I recognize that there are different dialects and ways of pronunciation, so I say it can work both ways.

Both you and Samurai are being a bit too anal about it, and are not recognizing your inherent dialect.

1 minute ago, paapiman said:

Siharis are pronounced in Taksal.

Well in the audio sample you posted in the other thread, there were several issues I had with the Taksal's way of pronouncing things.

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It shouldn't be a very hard task either.

Becoming a patthi should be a difficult task.

You should be well versed with the words that are in Gurbani that come from different languages. And you should know how they are pronounced in those languages.

If you are the Patthi, you have a big responsibility on your shoulders, and if you are being lazy about it, that's not good for the panth.

The individual panth members should also learn the correct pronunciation of Gurbani.

But the primary responsibility falls on the scholars.

1 hour ago, samurai2 said:

wrong again. try again

Sihari is short-e sound, like e in har as in har-e

You are pronouncing Sihari like Lav, whereas for the rest of us Sihari is defined as a chhoti Bihari and Lan is a chhota Dulav.

But like I explained earlier, dialect and personal preference change that.

Sihari is pronounced in two ways -

Some people say Sikh, some people say Sekh.

Some people say Vich, some people say Vech.

Some people say Pind, some people say Pend.

If you or your parents are/were from a Pind, you are probably saying the latter - Sekh, Vech, Pend.

The rest of us say it like the former, Sikh, Vich, Pind.

There are many dialects like this that pronounce letters and consonants differently.

For example with the word - ਭਾਈ

Some say PPai, some say Bhai, some say BBai

Which version do you say?

3 hours ago, paapiman said:

@BhagatSingh - You need someone who has extensive knowledge of etymology. My guess is that some Taksali ustaads might not have that knowledge. If you ask them too many questions, they might just say, "that's how it is taught in the Taksal". I have never met Bhai Surjeet Singh jee Malton, but you can try meeting him and having a discussion about it. It is possible that it might take you years to come to the same conclusions (on your own) that a scholar might explain you in a few days or months. 

Yea it took me years to confirm whether Siharis should be pronounced.

I wouldn't know where to begin with the topic.

I guess my main question would be - why do you not pronounce the siharis at the end of the word when it is critical to the meaning?

I have never found a good answer for that.

Anyone of your santhya teachers know the answer to this?

3 hours ago, paapiman said:

There are so many languages bro in Gurbani. If we had to learn to pronounce them in their native languages, becoming a Paathi (or doing Paath of Pothis) would become a pretty difficult task.

Do you think becoming a paathi should be an easy task?

1 hour ago, Singh123456777 said:

You live in brampton so you can meet the santheya ustad at malton Bhai Surjeet Singh Ji. He is really amazing. There are many other santheya ustads in brampton as well such as Bhagat Jaswant Singh Ji etc. 

Doing kojh by themselves is not bad but it is much easier to learn many concepts when a person has a vidya ustad. So please go and actually learn from somebody cause a vidya ustad can give you insight on many things.

Hmm ok I will speak to him.

11 hours ago, Singh123456777 said:

Why dont you talk to an actual ustad from the nirmaley or taksal?

I would love to. How would I go about doing that?

11 hours ago, Singh123456777 said:

Instead of coming to conclusions by yourself 

I must correct you there, I am not "by myself" lol.

1. I have got the literature of Nirmalas and Mahan kosh with me.

2. I have got that Force, which animates us, forcing me learn more about this.

3. Much of what I say is already rooted in our language.

For example, with the Sihari which I am 99% sure is pronounced, we already pronounce it in everyday life.

The example I like to use is - ਮੂਰਤਿ - which we pronounce as - moorti.

And we say -

ਨਾਲਿ ਚਲ - naale chal
ਸਾਡੇ ਘਰਿ ਅਾਉ - saade ghare aao
ਭਗਤਿ ਕਰੋ - bhagti karo

We already pronounce the sihari everywhere.

4. We already know the Sihari changes the meaning of the word, so it is critical to understanding the spoken word.

ਭਗਤ bhagat has a different meaning than ਭਗਤਿ bhagti.


5. It all started when Bhai Jagraj Singh from Basics of Sikhi made the comment in one of his talks that the sihari on ਸਤਿ indicates the yayya.

And here I am now.

25 minutes ago, Singh123456777 said:

Yea but guru sahib also created taksal as well as the nirmala samprda to teach sikhs this. 

Well I don't want to say that they are all wrong and I am right because when I read srigranth.org I obtain my understanding from them.

I am a big fan of the Fareed Kote Teeka which was written by a nirmalas.

So I get my knowledge from them and they know infinitely more than me.

However the things I have found out cast a huge shadow of doubt on the current way we pronounce gurbani.

And I am trying to find out -

1. What is the correct way? because Gurbani pronunciation is extremely important.

and

2. Where did we go wrong? because that will help us understand why our standardized pronunciation needs to change.

19 minutes ago, Singh123456777 said:

If you read zafarnama you would see how guru sahib has used words like zazza etc. Kadi dasam di bani vi parlo

Par lavange maharaj but Guru Granth Sahib is older. They don't use Jajja pair bindi.

They just use Jajja and possibly Dadda, wherever there is a Za sound.

You have to remember that back in the goold old days, everything was Oral and people didn't exactly know how to read or write.

So when Guru Granth Sahib was written, Guru sahib assumed you would know how to pronounce the words already.

It is completely flipped on its head nowadays. We have no strong oral tradition of those Bhasha, we have no idea idea how to pronounce the words and so we read whatever we want into it.

So I am trying to find out how to read Gurbani accurately.

I use Kahn SIngh ji's Mahan Kosh to figure out the pronunciations.

1 hour ago, Singh123456777 said:

Yes obviously gurbani has words from different languages, but a dadda does not sound like a zazza. If guru sahib wanted to have the sound of a zazza he would have used a zazza.

Why would they? There is no Zazza is the script of Guru Granth Sahib. They either use Dadda or Jajja, which are close enough.

Just like they don't use Addak or Bindi or Pairi Haha, a lot of the time but it is there.

Bindi and Pairi Haha are in the script but like Zazza, Addak is not.

Quote

Read zafarnama and see how guru sahib utilized those farsi words

Please elaborate.

1 hour ago, Singh123456777 said:

If you think i like art of punjab, you are mistaken. His art is horrible. You are is slightly better than his, but not leaps and bounds greater.

Which artist are you referring to?

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I understand that artists are underpayed, but those artists are not having an epiphany like you, who thinks that this is your goal in life. If this was your goal in life from Vaheguru then you should be giving these paintings for free. The other artists are not saying that this is their purpose in life, you are. And thats why i have a problem.

Having an epiphany or a purpose given by Akal Purakh sahib doesn't mean you ignore your condition and do stupid actions.

I also have a few stomachs to fill and have to put the roof over our head. Soon my family will be growing and so I need to earn more for the newcomers as well.

I give away art every now and then and donate it to various art fundraisers, gurdwaras and galleries. I also offered it to you.

But at the same time, I also have to earn some money in order to create more art.

I remember when I was studying in medical field, I did not get much time to paint.

On 5/28/2018 at 4:32 PM, Singh123456777 said:

First time i have seen somebody change gurbani so blatantly

Do you know that Gurbani has words from different languages?

My view is that these words should be pronounced the way they are in their native language (or as close to that as possible).

On 5/28/2018 at 3:32 AM, xs2singhsaab said:

Sikhs are usually very rich and well off. How is this happening?
Is there a particular paath that bestows this blessing on Sikhs?
I do want spiritual ascent ultimately however a certain amount of wealth is really necessary to have attention free from money matters & ones financial status.
I really need to progress in my career, learn more things, earn more. I am already late.
So is it Sukhmani Sahib or some other?

You gotta read Guru Granth Sahib with meanings about 5 times and apply those teachings to your life, then wealth will automatically come.

Wealth follows Wisdom. So follow Wisdom and Wealth will come.

Once you get it, remember to share it also.

On 5/28/2018 at 4:25 PM, Singh123456777 said:

He was sargun saroop of waheguru so it wasnt just after he went into the water that he recieved “his purpose in life” 

Guru sahib was doing it from day 1

Nah, i like another artists painting more, but he too charges an arm and leg.

Haha in that case you should realize that people have been underpaying artists this whole time!

Btw he also sells for 60 bucks,  if I remember correctly. So buy that option until you save up for the bigger option.