nogroup singh

Also I would like to share the other side of this discussion to give you background. Please read the following article on hair Human Hair - A Biological Necessity* Dr. Birendra Kaur Hair is a characteristic feature of mammals, commonly known as 'Hairy quadrupeds' - a group of animals that mark the climax of evolution. Mammals are also the dominant animals in the world today, due partly to their ability to regulate body temperature in the face of variations in environmental temperature. This requires regulation of heat production and heat loss by the body. Hair plays an important role in regulating heat loss from the body. Impulses from the brain (hypothalamus) causes the hair to stand on ends, thereby enclosing an insulating layer of air just outside the skin. This layer reduces the loss of heat by radiation. Man marks the climax of evolution even among mammals, and has the most complex and highly developed brain, and the longest hair on head. This feature cannot be without reason. It cannot be a matter of mere chance or a mistake by nature, because if the tails has been lost the tail too could have been lost. On the contrary, human head-hair has increased manifold as compared to other mammals. This dense and long growth of hair on the head shows that the body is trying to increase the surface area for some particular function. Such a trend to increase the surface area is seen in every system of the body, e.g. the highly coiled intestines with finger-like villi on their inner surfaces for absorption of digested food; alveoli in the lungs for exchange of O2 and CO2; glomerular capillaries in the form of bunch and coiled tubules in the kidneys where urine formation takes place. The circulatory and nervous systems show extensive branching to reach every nook and corner of the body. Even the surface of the human brain has maximum fissures (folds) corresponding to its increased abilities. The results that will be produced by decreasing the surface area of these points is easy for all to imagine! FUNCTIONS OF HAIR: Hair performs a variety of functions. Some are listed below: Form an insulating coat on the body. Trap a layer of still air just outside the skin, and thereby reduce loss of heat by radiation. Absorb harmful radiations from the sun. Keep out coarse dust particles, as in eyelashes, hair in the nasal chambers and ear canals. Eyebrows prevent water or perspiration from falling into eyes, due to their particular direction. Axillary and pubic hair lessen friction between limbs and body, and between limbs during locomotion. Axillary hair provide large surface area for evaporation of sweat. Beautify the body (otherwise why people do not shave off their hair from the head completely; bald men are desperate and would pay any price to get back on their heads). Beard and moustaches are for differentiation of sex. Mostly males are decorated in nature, e.g. lion, peacock and other birds, deer, etc. Protect from sun and rain. Prevent water from entering into skin. Impart colour to body. Vibrissae are sensory hair, tactile in nature and useful in dark burrows. Defend the body in danger, by standing on their ends, thereby making the body look bigger. Help to disguise by blending with the colour of the surroundings, to escape the watchful eyes of natural enemies. IS HAIR LIFELESS? Hair is erroneously considered lifeless because of lack of any visible connection with the brain. But, the drain is not controlling/communicating with our body through nerves alone. Hormones, which are chemical mediators also regulate various body functions. The immune system of the body fights infection with the help of coordinated action of cells, which have no visible connection with each other, or with the brain. So, presence or absence of nerves alone cannot determine the connection of a particular part of the body with the brain. If the hair was really dead to the brain, how then does it come to know that it has been cut, and respond by growing it again to the specific length? Once the specific length has been attained, further lengthening ceases. Thus, undoubtedly the brain is well aware of the condition of the hair, cut or uncut, even upto its tip! This is a sure sign of life. Also, the hair, like any other living organ of the body, responds to ageing, in their length, thickness of g rowth and greying. The condition of the health of a person is also reflected in the hair, its lustre, shine, etc. Lack of sensation in hair, is no indication of its being dead, for, even the brain shows no such sensation. There is also a phylum (Porifera), the animals of which do not possess a nervous system at all. A blow to any part of their body produces no response whatsoever. Do we call these animals dead? Most plants do not show any sensation either. Further, a part of that we call ?dead? may be without sensation but definitely not without function. Rather, its function is as important as any living part of the body, if not more. For example: What would be the fate of an egg without the shell? What would be the condition of the body?s living cells without the covering of the dead cells, i.e. upper layers of skin? How can teeth perform their function without enamel? What life would a bird lead without feathers? How would many freshwater animals overcome unfavourable conditions and not become extinct without cysts? How would plants disperse and reproduce without formation of seeds? Actually, different parts of the body or different cells cannot be categorised as useful/not useful. Each is only specially modified to perform different function for the benefit of the same individual. What the cells of a kidney can do, the cells of pancreas cannot. That does not mean that the former are more important than the latter, or vice versa. HAIR VS. NAILS: It is often argued that hair and nails are similar, and a question frequently asked: ?If we should not cut our hair, then why do we cut our nails? But even a superficial study of the two shows them to be extremely different from each other. Whereas the hair grows from a tubular pit, the hair follicle, formed by sinking in of the most actively dividing layer of the skin, i.e., stratum germinativum, into the lower dermis, the nails are only modifications of the upper dead layers of the skin, i.e. stratum corneum. Further, the base of every follicle bulges out forming an inverted cup, which receives blood capillaries for nourishment and nerve fibres that make the hair sensitive to contact. An oil gland, known as sebaceous gland, opens into every hair follicle, the secretion of which lubricates the hair. A muscle is also attacked to the base of every hair for bringing about movement. Pigments are added to the shaft of the hair as it grows. None of these features is associated with nails. Structurally also hair is extremely strong, and resists breaking due to its elasticity and flexibility. Hair is as strong as steel, if we compare the two of the same diameter. Nails, on the other hand, are very brittle and rigid, breaking off easily. Hair number in thousands, thereby increasing the surface area, as if to meet a specific requirement. Nails number only twenty. The difference between the two do not end with the structural features. Even the body?s response towards the two is totally different. Our body, throughout life, tries to maintain a particular length of hair, and if cut anywhere along the length, responds by growing them again to the specific length. It clearly indicates the link of the body with the hair all along its length. The body shows no such response to the nails, which grow from birth to death at the same rate, irrespective of whether cut or not. As has been mentioned earlier, even the shafts of hair, like any other living organ of the body, respond to ageing (in their length, density of growth, greying, etc.) and condition of health is reflected in the person?s hair (in their lustre, shine, etc.), whereas from the dead part of the nail, one can infer no such thing. Practically also, hair do not interfere in any daily activity, whereas it is impossible to function at all with long nails. And even if not cut, nails generally fall off of their own easily; rather it takes great effort to maintain them, even upto a short length. In contrast to the long list of the functions of hair, only one function can be attributed to nails - that is, protection of the tips of digits. CONCLUSION: To sum up, if there is anything on the head that can be compared with nails, it is dandruff! It is also argued that hair have been lost from the body in man, because the body is kept covered. If that be the case, then the axillary and the pubic hair should have been the first to go. Also, the hair on the face, neck and hands should have remained. Nature knows best what to discard or retain. Whatever is retained is not without purpose. If we are unable to explain something, it does not mean it has no significance. We must look for an explanation, rather than deny the role or existence of something we do not see. There are sound frequencies we do not hear; light waves, that make everything visible, we do not see; odours that we do not smell; there are animals that do not see as many colours as we do; some things we can neither see nor deny, such as emotions, the bond between mother and child, force of gravity, etc. So, if there are things we do not see, or hear, or smell, it does not imply their absence. Just as an ant cannot apprehend the size and shape of an elephant, life and its processes are beyond human apprehension in the present state of knowledge. Our vast Solar system, which is beyond reach even today, is just a speck in the universe! Even our smallness is beyond our apprehension! Hair is a gift from God, not a burden. Guru Gobind Singh, in his infinite wisdom, commanded us to respect it and to refrain from tampering with it. This is the visible token of his affection for us, as well as our faith in him. If we have faith in our Guru who was in communion with God, how can we do anything but follow his advice? As Prof. Puran Singh says: ?Let us sing in gratitude ?The Song of the Sikh?: ?Ah! Well, let my hair grow long; .... I cannot forget the knot He tied on my head; It is sacred, it is his mark of remembrance. The Master has bathed me in the light of suns not yet seen; There is eternity bound in this tender fragile knot. I touch the sky when I touch my hair, and a thousand stars twinkle through the night.?

Simi, Welcome to the club of sikh sisterhood and brotherhood. I won't say anything about your question but I will post what our 11th Guru Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji has in it. NOTE: It is most important to bear in mind that a `QUOTATION' on its own does not narrate the real purport. To grasp the spiritual and terrestrial value it must be studied with reference to the contest of the whole SHABD. The `verse quoted' itself is not the essence but a mean reach the real place in the sacred Volume so as to comprehend the totality; the veritable essence lies in the whole SHABD, the revealed hymn. The Author **The bride may buy sandalwood oil and perfumes, and apply them in great quantities to her hair; she may sweeten her breath with betel leaf and camphor, but if this bride is not pleasing to her Husband Lord, then all these trappings are false. (Sri M.1 P.19) **The bride braids her hair with Truth; her clothes are decorated with His Love. Like the essence of sandalwood, He permeates her consciousness, and the Temple of the Tenth Gate is opened. (Sri M.1 P.54) **In the third watch of the night, O my merchant friend, the swans, the white hairs, come and land upon the fool of the head. (Sri M.1 P.75) **Your hair is whiter than the jasmine flower, and your voice has grown feeble, as if it comes from the seventh underworld. (Sri Beni Ji P.93) **He does not need to eat; His Hair is Wondrous and Beautiful; He is free of hate. (Majh M.5 P.98) **They pluck the hair out of their heads; they drink filthy water, beg endlessly and eat the garbage which, others have thrown away. (Majh M.3 P.149) **Those humble beings, with whom the Beautifully-haired Lord is thoroughly pleased, sing the Glorious Praises f the Lord. (Gauri M.5 P.203) **The fourteenth lunar day - in the fourteen worlds, and on each and every hair, the Lord, the Destroyer of pride, is dwelling. (Gauri Kabir P.344) **Others raise their hair in tufts and wear sacred threads and loin-cloths. You are the Lord Master; I am just Your puppet. Prays Nanak, what is my social status to be? (Asa M.1 P.358) **The soul bride should weave patience into the braids of her hair, and apply the lotion of the Lord, the Great Lover. (Asa M.1 359) **I contemplate, forever and ever, the True Guru; with my hair, I dust the Feet of the Guru. (Asa M.5 P.387) **Seizing him by the hair, the Messenger of Death pulls him up; then, he comes to his senses. (Asa M.5 P.408) **Those heads adorned with braided hair, with their parts painted with vermilion; those heads were shaved with scissors, and their throats were choked with dust. They lived in palatial mansions, but now, they cannot even sit near the palaces. (Asa M.1 P.417) When the hair grows grey, then it shines without shampoo. The hunters of the King of Death come, and bind him in the chains of Maya. (Asa M.5 P.432) **With each and every hair, with each and every hair, as Gurmukh, I meditate upon the Lord. (Asa M.4 P.443) **Millions of incarnations of Vishnu and Shiva, with matted hair, yearn for You, O Merciful Lord; their minds and bodies are filled with infinite longing. (Asa M.5 P.456) **Sitting on the threshold, his mother weeps, and his brothers take away the coffin. Taking down her hair, his wife cries out in sorrow, and the swan-soul departs all alone. (Asa Kabir P.478) **When the Messenger of Death comes and grabs you by your hair, why do you cry out then? (Asa Kabir P.481) **I sing Your Praises night and day. With my hair, I wash the feet of Your slave; this is my life' purpose. (Gauri M.5 P.500) **Gabbing them by the hair on their heads, the Lord throws them down, and leaves them on Death's path. They cry out in pain, in the darkest of hells. (Gujri M.5 P.524) **O friend, I may look very attractive, but I am not pleasing to my Husband Lord at all. I have woven my hair into lovely braids, and saturated their partings with vermilion; but when I go before Him, I am not accepted, and I die, suffering in anguish. (Wadhans M.1 P.558) **Your Nose is so Graceful, and Your Hair is so Long. Your Body is so Precious, cast in gold. His Body is cast in gold, and He wears Krishna's mala; meditate upon Him, O sisters. (Wadhans M.1 P.567) **The Creator Lord Himself stood between us, and not a hair upon my head was touched. The Guru made my cleansing bath successful; meditating upon the Lord, Har, Har, my sins were erased. (Sorath M.5 P.623) **The Yogis die, with their matted hair, but even they do not find Your State, O Lord. (Sorath Kabir P.654) **You make your hair beautiful, and wear a stylish turban on your head. But in the end, this body shall be educed to a pile of ashes. (Sorath Ravidas P.659) **Azra-eel, the Messenger of Death, has caught me by the hr on my head, and yet, I do not know it at all in my mind. (Tilang M.1 P.721) **I make my hair into a fan, and wave it over the Saint. I bow my head low, to touch his feet, and apply his dust to my face. (Suhi M.5 P.745) **The night of my youth has passed away; will the day of old age also pass away? My dark hairs, like bumble bees, have gone away, a and grey hairs, like cranes, have settled upon my head.(Suhi Kabir P.792) **O Lord of Beautiful Hair, Destroyer of pain, Eradicator of sins, Nanak lives, gazing upon the Blessed Vision of Your Darshan. (Bilawal M.5 P.829) **Each and every hair on my head, and my mind and body,suffer the pains of separation; without seeing my God, I cannot sleep. (Bilawal M.4 P.836) **When the Messenger of Death grabs you by your hair, you will be punished. (Ramkali M.1 P.906) **Finally, the True Guru said, `When I am gone, sing Kirtan in Praise of the Lord, in Nirvana.' Call in the long-haired scholarly Saints of the Lord, to read the Gospel of the Lord, Har, Har. (Ramkali M.3 P.923) **The Gurmukh meditates upon the Lord with every hair of his body. (Ramkali M.1 P.941) **Day and night, I wash Your Feet, Lord; I wave my hair as the chauree, to brush away the flies. (Ramkali Kabir .969) **Some shave their heads, some keep their hair in matted tangles; some keep it in braids, while some keep silent, filled with egotistical pride. Their minds waver and wander in ten directions, without loving devotion and enlightenment of the soul. (Maru M.5 P.1013) **His intellect fails him, his black hair turns white, and no one wants to keep him in their home. Forgetting the Naam, these are the stigmas which stick to him; the Messenger of Death beats him, and drags him to hell. (Maru M.1 P.1014) **Walking sticks, begging bowls, hair tufts, sacred threads, loin cloths, pilgrimages to sacred shrines and wandering all around; without the Lord's Name, peace and tranquillity are not obtained. (Bhairo M.1 P.1128) **The Lord's Name permeates each and every hair of mine. The Perfect True Guru has given me this Gift. (Bhairo M.5 P.1144) **The poets and the Yogis with their matted hair all lived their lives with good behaviour. (Basant Kabir P.1194) Why do you honour the slave of the Lord? Because the one combs her hair for corruption, while the other remembers the Name of the Lord. (Slok KabirP.1373) **Farid, those who did not enjoy their Spouse when theirhair was black; hardly any of them enjoy Him when their air turns grey. So be in love with the Lord, so that your colour may ever be new............................................ Farid, whether one's hair is black or grey, our Lord and Master is always here, if one remembers Him. (Slok Farid P.1378) **Farid, your hair has turned grey, your beard has turnedgrey, and your moustache has turned grey. O my thoughtless and insane mind, why are you indulging n pleasures? (Slok Farid P.1380) **They slap their faces and pull their hair out. But if they chant the Naam, the Name of the Lord, they shall be absorbed into it. O Nanak, I am a sacrifice unto them. (Slok etc. M.1 P.1410) Source: Sikhnet.com

Welcome brother and welcome to the club of sikhism sisterhood and brothehood. Sikhs forgot the first rule of Sikhism that always clear things but not insult anyone. Yes! you will and keep reading this thread and you will get the anwser you are looking for in civilized way. Nevermind brother because assumptions always give wrong impression. Great you know that.... You should say our Gurus, as they are the source of all the orgs we have within sikhism. So, it doesn't matter if its dam dammi taksaal or AKJ because they all are under the blessings of our 11th Guru Sri guru granth sahib ji's message and spreading the message of Guru ji. I think they are young to understand, so you should let AKJ know about it. hamm.. We are not here to judge someone so its hard to decide what their politics is but I would like to advice that you should contact them directly. My question is this. Yes, we know about them. Again, I have limited knowledge of Dodra group so im not going to comment on them. But if I go by your concern then its better to ask AKJ directly not from the kids going to AKJ but seniors from their group. Let's hope they come up with good anwser and they will as far as I know so I will wait, till they come up with something like that but I expect mature anwsers from them. If they will insult you then they are insulting a sikh who is as important to guru ji as anybody else so we all not going to sit here and let them do it. But it can be your wrong assumptions so wait till they anwser you. It would have been nice if you had given good information about Dodra. I would request you to go through few thread we had for orgs and sants so you can get the idea in the meantime. http://www.sikhawareness.com/sikhawareness...topic.php?t=738 http://www.sikhawareness.com/sikhawareness...topic.php?t=293 Also I will advice you to go through their FAQ as well. http://www.akj.org.uk/faq/default.asp Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh!!!

This is all we need and everyone listen to us. And respect of Sikhs and sikhism will come back to the same position where it was before 84. We need youths in punjab to embrace sikhi and spread the words - We need a spirtual leader than an poltical one - We need gurbani vichar how to meditate to get peace of mind and to become fearless. -We need unite all the small issues to together and take care of the big issues (Big issue is not the khalistan but to bring sikhi alive and kicking in punjab), eliminate rss from punjab state. - Get that 3HO white sikhs in the punjab university teaching sikhi in english. To influence more youths into it.

Rups, I would like to anwser your question as per my knowledge. Just imgine a Sikh boy with Hat/cap? If turban was not that important then why do Sikhs wear Turban? Turban is not just a piece of cloth to cover your head but its a sign of the true identity of Sikh male/female. If you want to ask question why hat is prohibited within sikhism then please first read about Turban and why Sikhs wear it. Go ahead and read this article and it will give you anwser. http://www.sikhcoalition.org/Sikhism11.asp

Wahe Guru ji ka Khalsa, Wahe Guru ji ki Fateh, I had discussion with my friend and i asked him that what he thinks of "Khalsa establishment" by Guru Gobind singh ji? And he came up with statement that he created Khalsa just to save Hinduism? I don't agree with this statement so I want to start this discussion.

Jatt= farmer caste Ramgariya is not a caste but Tarkhan is a caste, ppl use "Ramgariya" because Jassa Singh "Ramgariya" established his misl and he was from the same "Tarkhan" caste. Tarkhan= Carpenter It goes like this, if you work in your garden, then you are jatt, and if you work with wood, then you are carpenter/tarkhan. Caste system was nothing but categories made on the bases of work/professions. As per Sikhism there is no caste/race or cult. Caste System was started in Hinduism by ancient Priests by using "manu smirti". So, if you see anyone calling him jatt-sikh also Tarkhan-sikh that is un-sikh and most of the youth knows it, and it will go away soon because youth don't care about it. It's not easy to anwser because Sikhism strongly denies caste system but people under the influence modified punjabi culture still use it. I would request you to go through the below link and understand what it is and then come back, if you have any further question. http://adaniel.tripod.com/castes.htm

Good job Kaur1699... If we leave this orthodox approach to Sikhism then I can see more Sikh youth calling themselves Sikhs and start learning instead of converting to other religion and leaving Sikhism. But I would like to say this that Sikhism is not a path to call yourself Sikh only but its a learning process. So, make it a habit of yours that you will start reading Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji one chapter a day otherwise there is no use of calling yourself Sikh if you don't know the teaching of your path/religion. Go to download section and download SGGS and start reading, after reading this post. Best of Luck! Ajiboom, I won't anwser your question but I will recommend that you read what is written below. Written by Punjabi Tiger and click on source and read the full discussion also: Source: Click Here

Good question but not clear. Would you mind giving some more information about it? How? Where? Please, write in detail and we wil try our best to anwser your question. Also check this thread. http://www.sikhawareness.com/sikhawareness...topic.php?t=329

This article is good to get the background of Mirza Ahmed. http://alhafeez.org/rashid/british-jewish/bjc_2.htm

All, History by Akali Baba Teer Singh Nihang shrimoni Panth Akai Siri Tarna Dal During the late 1700's SIkhs formed clans called Misls, each misl had it own unique Nishan Sahib. When the british Conquered Punjab Maharaja Ranjits Singhs Misl the Sukercharia Misl was in command, most of the Gurdwara in Punjab had the Sukercharia Nishan Sahib which was Kesri rang and had on it the 4 Shaster, that make up the Khanda Sybol Designed by Guru Hargobind Sahib Maharaaj. From those days to this, this Styr of Nishan sahib has dominated nearlt all of the gurdwara. Guru Gobinds Nishan sahib was blue in color and it had on it onlt one sword SRI ASIDHUJ, this is dsma Patsha Battle flag and the Ladlia Fauja of Guru Gobind Singh The Akali Nihangs, have preseved this, we do not exepct the Kesri Nishan Sahib has being from Guru Gobing SIngh. SIkh Rehat Maryada: The guru khalsa rehat maryada says that a nishan sahib can be blue or yellow (kesri). Blue is mainly used by the warrior section of the Khalsa called Nihangs. Blue is the colour of their uniform. Any further Information?

100% into sikhism? How about 80%? 70%? 50%? 10%? 0%? Brother, we need to grow and if we will keep this kind of attitude then we will end up getting nowhere. Guru ji don't stop us for getting into sikhism and you are going against Guru ji's word? You really need to read this article first otherwise I don't see any good future of Sikhi. Sikhi is to give hugs to everyone not to make orgs and divisons. Read this article first and then we will talk about it.... http://www.sikh.net/publications/MasterFt/Ftstp07.htm

Guys cool down! lolllllll It's good to have jokes sometimes on this site...loll Just take it this way if you are Sikh then you know who you are and you don't need to learn from him as our Gurus have done a great job by giving us Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji as our Guru. Just laugh at him and get back to Sikhism discussion.... We need to make this forum fruitful for our sisters and brothers. I still can't get over of his claims...

Written by Yuktanand singh: Concept of God is a foundational topic. It is also impossible to discuss. An entire book could be written about it and still not do it justice. It is a subject for the scholars to entertain. I suggest that everyone may please read the references as they occur. Please try to read the entire Shabad before proceeding further with the article. It would not hurt reading the entire page where the quote is from. Doing so would help us touch the spiritual wisdom in Gurbani. The message of Gurbani is the same, on all pages, just presented in different words. Please forgive me that due to time constraints I did not support all statements with Gurbani. However, all statements here are according to Gurbani and Gurmat, as far as I understand them. Please indicate the mistakes so that they can be corrected. Here is a web site for reading quotations: http://www.sikhnet.com/sggs/translation/0397.html The nature of reality is difficult to understand, especially because, we transfer our own preconceived definitions to it. This adds to our ignorance. We need a clear understanding of the terminology we use in our discussions. We also need to be intellectually humble. "Concept of God" cannot be discussed rationally since God can be neither conceptualized nor described. This is because, just as we cannot see our own face God is not an object of observation and, the reality is completely different than what we know from the empirical world. The difference between truth and ordinary human awareness is just like being awake versus being asleep. No discussion can bridge this gap. Guru Ji says, "Beyond the world of Vedas, Bible and scriptures, my Lord Master is clearly before my eyes." (397:7) Why are the scriptures unable to describe Him? Eternal reality is rather, a subject of the heart. Mind cannot understand everything that the heart sees. The word "Mann" in Gurbani often refers to the heart, not the mind, even though it is erroneously translated as the mind. When our mind submits to Guru's word, it converts into an exalted awareness, called Surat (3:6). Ordinary awareness does not include this faculty. Surat does not require any reasoning, just as, when I see you standing in front of me I do not need a mathematical proposition to prove that this is so. Through Surat, we can see the unseen, and we comprehend the otherwise incomprehensible facts. If we notice, Guru Ji did not touch any intellectual issues like immanence/transcendence, the origin of creation, and Karma, etc., in the Mool Mantra. Doing so would demean the reality of God, as if we are able to understand these, when in fact, we are not. Guru Ji did not even give any name to God except that He Himself is the true Naam (Satnam). Often it is easier to discuss what God is not than to discuss what God is. Here is a short discussion on how Gurmat regards Hukam, free will, and redemption. Since Hukam is an integral aspect of God's nature, it cannot be explained (1:7). We must know that God's will, or Waheguru's Hukam, does not have the same character as our will, because God has no other. Our will could be whimsical, rooted in ego, duality, and it may involve some selfishness. Hukam does not conduct some kind of dictatorship either. Rather, the closest example of God's will is, love. We could say that Hukam is another name for God's intent that all living beings return to the source, Waheguru Himself (678:3). This is, in fact, the culmination of all love there is. We are born with a desire to belong to someone, and we do not feel complete until we do so. But we are fulfilled only when we belong to someone eternal. God takes pleasure in our union with Him (23:10, 174:10). This is manifest as Hukam, throughout the creation, the blooming flowers as well the dry leaves under our feet. We evolve starting from inanimate objects, until, as humans we seek and ask questions rather than taking our existence for granted (176:10-16). This includes evolution of the ego and the accumulation of Karma. Only as humans we are ready for that aspect of reality which is ever present everywhere but is also totally hidden from the physical and intellectual realm. The entire creation is a set up, so that, whenever we take a path that leads away from Waheguru, in other words, when we sin, it results in suffering and the suffering turns us inward, it forces us to look beyond the appearances. This is a natural course of events, not God's wrath. Suffering is, simply, a blessing in disguise. God does not desire that we suffer. But this is His Hukam, His Love. Why did God start this in the first place? Guru Ji says that just as a fish cannot find the limits of the ocean, we can not know why. When we do know the answer, we cannot explain it to others. The most fitting explanation is that it is all God's play (655:4). Why does God play in a way that we suffer? This question is erroneous because it is based on duality. Since, in reality, it is all God Himself, then no one is separate from Him and no one really suffers except God. Suffering is not eternal. Only God, and His love, is eternal. We are like someone who is sitting on a treasure but feels and lives like a pauper. We are miserable in the darkness of ignorance (657:19). Our own choices make us suffer. We are left free to make our choice, in the present moment, one step at a time. We can choose to continue to suffer or to take shelter in Waheguru's Hukam that leads us out of this cycle of Karma. God watches patiently, always here to help us. If God started this play, is He not responsible for the consequences? Yes, God is always responsible for everything. However, this does not relieve our suffering. God has given us the free will to choose the course that would get us back to where we belong and to be ultimately free of suffering. We need to choose which side of this game we are on, the winning side or the losing side. As long as we hold on to our ego, we are held responsible, and we suffer the consequences of our acts. We are free to make this choice only. The game continues the same, involving winners as well as the losers. However, here is another issue. We are not free to understand all this and to make proper use of the freedom we have (7:9-11). This would often deflate our enthusiasm. Did Guru Nanak write this in Japji to make us fatalistic and pessimistic, to make us believe that our own effort is useless? This is how our ego reacts towards it, but its real significance is just the opposite of fatalism. Guru Nanak made this declaration from an enlightened state, not an egotistical state. Besides hinting against judging others, it is a message of hope, because everything is in God's powerful hands. The ego may regard it as fatalism, forgetting that God, our Father, loves us. This is reiterated in the last five couplets of Sri Guru Granth Sahib (1429: 6-10). We are in bondage and thus, we are powerless. However, everything is possible when we place all our affairs in God's hands. Walking under God's light takes us towards God. Acting on our own keeps us self-centered. Friends and relatives may provide support, but it can not endure. Only Naam, Guru, or a Sant always stands by us (1429:9, 729:2-3). This insight keeps our ego out of commission. This is important, because, as soon as we commend ourselves for our knowledge or engaging in Naam Simran, we have failed already. As long as there is "Me" and "Mine" Naam cannot enter. The goal, after all, is losing the small "I" and merging into our Source. This is why we do not find "I am He" or "You are That" (Tat Tvam Asi) of the Vedanta in Gurbani. The cut off point between God's Hukam and our own will is always in our heart, in the present moment, and nowhere else. This is the only point where we are free to make any choices. We have no control over the past or the future. We have very little control over our environment. But we have full control over how we react toward the hidden reality, here and now. This determines the course of events, as well as the results of our past actions. Waheguru has given us freedom to make this choice at every single moment, with each breath. This brings us to the question of redemption. In Gurmat, sin (mistake) is not the real obstacle. We are born in sin, and live in sin day and night. Our sins are countless. No math can help us here. It is not possible for us, or anyone else, to recompense our sins. Sin leads to misery and to death. But we are bound, in the cycle of Karma, not because of sin, or Karma, but because of ignorance. Even the virtuous deeds, if performed in ignorance, could be just as binding as sinful acts, perhaps even more so. A sinful individual would be guilty and may seek to improve eventually, while the so-called virtuous person is stuck, bloated with a false ego of righteousness. Redemption comes only from God's mercy. We need to understand also that, God mercy is not the same as our mercy. For example, our concept of mercy may envision someone vengeful. But since God does not punish anyone, then, the nature of His mercy must be different also. Let us try this. Sant Naranjan Singh Ji used to say this. Just as millions of years of darkness is removed in an instant by light, the same way, God's presence in our heart, His Naam removes all sins. Naam is synonymous with God's mercy or Gurprasad. This is another subject of discussion. Thus God's mercy is His own presence, His light, a piece from His heart bestowed into our heart through Guru's mercy. Guru's mercy removes the darkness of ignorance and it redeems us. Then, sin has no place to stay anywhere. Karma is abolished because the tablet, the ego, where all the account of our actions was written, is dissolved when we are completely soaked with Guru's pure Love. (73:7-74:14) I am not sure if this answers any questions or if it made any sense. Let us try this: The Bani of Asa Di Vaar deals with the nature of existence and the human ego quite extensively. Those who live in ego, against the flow of God's will and God's love, live trapped in the circle of Karma, caught between the two grinding stones. Those who live in God's will are able to hold on to the pivot and thus escape the millstones (465:5-17). We have discussed this before. Let us repeat the outline here again. God created the nature (Kudrat). He enjoys watching it while not really participating in it (463:4). The creation includes both the truth and falsehood (463:6-15, 468:5-8). The creation as a whole is true. Those who deal with the truth are also true. But everything that takes birth and dies is, false, and thus not dependable (463:9). Hidden inside this world of birth and death, lives the Eternal being (463:13). Through His will, some learn to seek it and are merged with it. Others see only the physical aspect and find only death in the end (463:14). The law (Dharm) of Naam was established when the living beings were created (463:16). This law measures our inner sincerity versus deceitfulness, God's will versus our own will working in our heart. Sincere beings seeking the truth, whose intentions match their words, get imbued with Naam and, are victorious. Others lose out in this Divine play. The Divine Will controls the entire nature. But it cannot be described (Japji, SGGS 1:7). Because of a lack of understanding of the Divine will, people invent different theories and different religious practices. But truth is obtained only through God's Mercy (467:9). Out of mercy, Guru gives us the Shabad, God's message (465:2). Then we are able to renounce our ego and reconnect with the truth. The pair of opposites, birth and death, good and bad, pleasure and pain, heaven and hell, wisdom and foolishness, etc., all are based upon the ego (466:10-18). Ego is a sinister disease, however it has its own medicine built into it (466:18), that, it longs for peace and longs to become lost in love. This disease continues as long as we look for love in the wrong places. This results in fear, disappointment, pain and suffering. Thus, pain and suffering becomes our teacher (469:9). Only Waheguru has what the ego longs for. The Shabad, God's own language, is boundless and unconditional love (2:3). Through God's Mercy we learn to become Guru's humble servant (466:19-467:3) and we fall in an unconditional love with God (474:3-10). Unconditional love asks no questions and it makes no demands. Then the disease of ego is eliminated. Then we become free. source: sikhnet

Here is the conclusion to this thread but I will add more as I get them. "Gurdev Maata, Gurdev Pita, Gurdev Swami Parmesura, Gurdev Sakha Agiyan Bhanjan Gurdev Bandhap Sahodra.Gurdev Daata Har Naam Updesai Gurdev Mantr Nirodhra......" SGGS Unk: 250

Detail explanation of Sant and Bramgyani: " Written by Yuktanand singh. Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa! Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh!! Sadh Sangat and Shabad Guru, these two are important pillars of the Panth. Guru Ji has said, "Have friendship with a Gurmukh, and set your heart on the true Guru" (1421:5). This is our staple in our spiritual journey on this earth. These days, we have the Shabad as our Guru, but we seem to be losing the art of Sadh Sangat. So, here is an article on this difficult and touchy subject. I have been reluctant to post it because I do not have the time to keep up with discussions and I find myself quite inadequate, just like a fish trying to climb up a tree. But, considering the continued confusion and controversy generated by the so-called saints sprouting everywhere, I have decided to post it. Please excuse its length. It is divided into six sections. It is difficult to be cognizant of various contentions and still keep it short and free of redundancy. An effort is made to keep it within the tenets of Gurmat. Please offer correction of mistakes. Section I During the time of Guru Nanak, there was a Gurmukh who, in his Dharamsal, would serve every holy man passing through his village. He asked all these holy men the same question, "What is the benefit of meeting or serving the Sant or a Sadhu?" Everyone said that one is blessed with happiness, riches, health, long life, children, etc. but being a Gurmukh, he was not satisfied with their answer. One day he met Guru Nanak and asked him this question. Guru Nanak, instead of explaining it, told him to go in the jungle early in the morning, sit below a certain tree and repeat 'Waheguru' for some time. The Gurmukh did exactly as he was told. He noticed a pair of crows sitting on the tree. While he was sitting there they had transformed into white cranes. But he felt that he still did not receive the answer to his question. So Guru Nanak told him to repeat the same the next day. Next day he noticed that these white cranes turned into swans. He still did not see the answer to his question. So Guru Ji told him to go back. Next morning, while sitting and reciting 'Waheguru' he observed that pair of swans transform into humans. They came and sat close to him. Gurmukh asked them the question also. The pair explained that they were born as crows but upon meeting the Gurmukh, they became cranes, upon meeting him again, they became swans, and then humans. Upon meeting a Sadhu, within the course of three days they were blessed with what would have otherwise taken several lifetimes. (The above was paraphrased from 'Divine Mystic Reflections on Gurmat' p. 183) Recently, while strolling in a state of spiritual reflection, I saw a pair of crows, and I remembered the incident above. As I approached the crows they flew away the instant they saw me. But they soon returned. Still as crows. What are the lessons to be learned here? Here are some choices: 1. Such supernatural phenomena occurred only during the time of the Gurus, not today. 2. The pair of crows that returned could be a different pair, not the same that flew away. 3. I am not a Gurmukh. Therefore, it was foolish of me to expect similar results. 4. Sitting early in the morning and repeating 'Waheguru' would yield a better outcome. 5. The actual process is much subtler than how it is symbolically presented in those books. 6. Meeting Guru Nanak accelerated the process, so that the Gurmukh learns the lesson quickly. 7. The desire to meet a Gurmukh had turned this Sikh into a Gurmukh, worthy of Darshan himself. 8. Spiritual people teach by example and they avoid arguments and elaborate explanations. 9. Before the advent of Sangat, Dharamsals and Teerath (pilgrimage) facilitated meeting holy people. 10. Truth is always the same. Thus, regardless, the lesson applies to us just as much today as it did then. In my opinion, the correct choice is all of the above, except the first one. Let us see why meeting a Gurmukh is so important and what is the significance of Sat Sangat. Sikh Panth is a living Panth. Do we understand what makes it a living path; is it the ordinary Sikhs or a Gurmukh like the one in the episode above? What makes this Panth different and superior than all the religions? Which ingredients assure its survival, undiluted and unadulterated, for the future generations? Most of us would say, Gurbani. But in my opinion, it is the implementation of Gurbani. Not to mention the Khalsa Rehit, but that is a separate subject. Gurbani lists Sangat as essential to living a normal life as a human (427:6). Sat Sangat is just as important as reading Gurbani, because it transforms our heart so that we can truly understand the message of Gurbani (1316:6-8). We need to examine ourselves: is the Sangat working for us in this sense? If not, why not? Do we understand what Sat Sangat means? Does a crowd of people like us represent Sat Sangat? Does the company of others just like us, adequately fulfill all the conditions of being in the Sadh Sangat? In other words, what is the role of a Sadh or a Sant in Sikh Panth? Section II The meaning of Sadh or Sant: The English word 'Saint' does not mean the same as the 'Sant' in Gurbani. The former commonly means someone canonized by the church or the Vatican, while a Sikh Saint or Sant is someone who has achieved spiritual perfection and mastery over the personal self through Guru's mercy. Being the most humble person on earth, a Sant lives without any regard to recognition by people or by a religious body. A Sant is an extremely rare soul (1123:3). This should not discourage us, confuse us, or cloud our understanding that Sant is the model of a perfect Sikh, the person that Gurbani urges us to become. As Guru Ji says, "The season comes over and over, but a seed germinates only if it were whole" (468:17), in order to understand Gurmat properly, we must remember that Sikh Panth is an inner journey, a path of Bhakti or Divine love. Without this insight, we can gain only a fragmented understanding of Gurmat. A Sant is someone who is devoted only to God and always lives in God's presence. Gurbani emphasizes upon company of a Sant as an essential, so we can learn the correct way (e.g., 999:12, 622:1, 610:7-12). Obviously, these verses are of little value to those who are not mystically inclined, and most people are not. To them, Sant is, at best, an idyllic dream of perfection, a state unattainable in the real world. It is difficult to interpret Gurmat and make it palatable to the masses as well. Panth thrives only on account of those few Gursikhs who quietly practice the edict 'Guru Granth and Guru Panth' in the real sense. Others attempt to reinterpret Gurbani to make it fit us just as we are, as if we, the ordinary and ignorant Sikhs constitute 'Guru Panth' and that we do not need to seek someone better and more advanced than us. As a result, instead of aspiring to realize these supreme goals, seeking and respecting our venerated Sikhs, and striving to follow Gurbani as it was meant to be followed, we have succeeded only in lowering its high standards down to the level of our own mediocrity and stolidity. For example, we delegate the recital of our Guru's Bani to paid singers and CD players. Then we wonder what went wrong. This is sad. Our greatest foes are not outside. They are living among us. At one extreme are those teachers who misrepresent Gurmat. In an apparent effort to save us from the charlatans, they shroud and suppress our need to adore perfect Gursikhs as our role models, by distorting the meaning in Gurbani. At the other extreme, people revere some individuals as a Guru, when Guru Ji makes it clear that only Shabad, not a person, is the Guru. We also see people creating division in the Sangat, on the basis of which Sant which Jatha or which Dera is genuine. Such acts should be declared off limits in the Panth, because all such acts create splinter groups, destroying our unity. Panth is meant to be a family of humans following one God under the umbrella of Gurbani and Sadh Sangat, not under some person or some religion. So, what would a Sant look like today? With the institution of Sangat, the Panj Piyare, and with the rules laid down for the Khalsa Panth, if followed correctly, Guru Ji has eliminated all danger from impostors. We submit only to the Panj Piyare in the physical form of the Guru, Guru Granth Ji in the spiritual form, and we seek the company of a Sant in the Sangat, not in someone who claims to be a Sant. Those who claim to be a Guru or a Sant, leading the Sikhs away from mainstream Panth, are the ones we need to worry about. Additionally, we must avoid those teachers who disregard the Rehit prescribed by the tenth Master. Today's Sikh Sant is a Gursikh who keeps the Rehit of Khalsa, and someone who would not lead people into joining a 'Jatha' or a 'Dera' and thus, would not engage in fragmentation of the mainstream Sangat. It is imperative that every Sikh learns to be responsible and not promote someone living as, a Sant. As we know, a "Puran Gursikh" (perfect Sikh) would be an acceptable designation of a Gursikh living today whom we may respect and revere. Ignoring this simple but important rule is, in a way, defiance of the institution of the Panj Piyare. Such acts contradict Guru Ji's goal to eliminate our differences and to unite us, nay, to unite the entire world some day. Section III How is a Sant produced? Sri Naranjan Singh Ji used to say that, just as an almond has a kernel and a shell, the same way, Naam (Waheguru hidden inside everyone and everywhere) is the kernel, everything else (including religion, theology, and philosophy) is just the shell. Only the moments lived with this truth in our heart are worthwhile. Those rare individuals who seek the kernel, the essence, and through Guru's mercy, never turn their attention away from it, become perfect and they are known as a Sant (319:18, 1425:2-3). All our acts, breathing, sitting, getting up and taking bath during the Amrit Vela, Simran, Nitnem, putting food in our mouth, thinking, interaction with others, experiencing pleasure or pain, everything is judged in the light of whether we have been true to this eternal law of Naam (463:16). However, mostly we stay oblivious towards it, being busy all our life mistaking the shell for the kernel. Except for that rare individual called Sant, we all vacillate, and thus, we remain imperfect and keep falling off the path. Being in dust from the feet of Sat Sangat, we can learn how to maintain a balance on this path (1263:7, 1065:2). Unlike any other scripture, Gurbani, page after page, dwells upon the kernel. Gurbani does not belong to any particular religion. Shabads related to the essence, i.e., Naam Sant and Guru, are the least understood, and also the most difficult to explain. This is because of our own limitations. As Guru Ji says, only a Brahmgyani can understand a Brahmgyani (273:16), or only a Sant understands the glory of Naam (265:6). Nevertheless, it is imperative that we understand their importance in our life. We could cite several hundred pages of Gurbani regarding importance of Sadh Sangat, and the Sant. On the average, the words Sant Sadh HarJan or Jan appear twice or more on each page. Only the words, 'Gurmukh' 'Guru' 'Naam' and various names used for God, exceed their frequency in Gurbani. In the Bani of Sukhmani Sahib, besides numerous other references to Sant and Jan, three complete Ashtpadi's (chapters) are devoted to this topic alone. It should be obvious that an insight into its meaning, and more importantly, its application is absolutely vital to our understanding of Gurmat and to succeed as a Sikh. Notwithstanding the prevalence of frauds and fakes, further compounded by an extreme rarity of a genuine Sant, a perfect Gursikh always lives somewhere. Some individuals would proudly display their derision of anyone called a Sant. This is unfortunate. A threat of deceit and abuse does not justify rejection of the institution of Sangat and its product, the Gurmukh or Sant. The charlatans have been always with us. During the time of the Ninth Master, there were 22 such individuals claiming to be the Guru, in just one small town of Bakala. Among people without any spiritual discipline, anyone with a little mental concentration and some knowledge of Gurbani can easily pass as the greatest Sant. Let us understand at least this, Sant is a rare soul, extremely difficult to find, and a Sant would not claim to be a Sant. The rest of these "Sants" and "Gurus" are, at best, just a little more advanced and clever than the masses around them, and in fact, if they claim to be a Sant, they do more damage than any good they may seem to accomplish. The terms, Sikh, Gursikh, Brahmgyani, Gurmukh, Jan or HariJan, Mahapurush, Sadh, and Sant, are the names given to Sikhs at various spiritual stages. The Sant is a sacred and supreme state recognized within the Panth. The prevalent abuse of this term, along with widespread ignorance of what it stands for, has degraded its meaning for the masses today. This makes some scholars to even suggest that 'Sant' is just a metaphor, used only for Sri Guru Granth Sahib, the Gurus, or God. This version could be acceptable if it had been indeed used sparingly, as a metaphor, not repeated on every page of Sri Guru Granth Sahib. Most of Gurbani is simple, composed in the languages of that era. Confusing us with metaphors is clearly, not the aim of Gurbani. Gurbani also refers to Sant in the present tense. Thus, while Gurbani is quite unambiguous that Sant is a person, a Sant must also be alive and well. Section IV How do we find a Sant? We must remember this: A Sant is carefree, most humble, imbued with Divine love and in tune with the will of Waheguru (711:12). A Sant would never make public claims to visions, spiritual experiences, or some supernatural powers, etc. If someone does so, just steer clear of that person. The characteristics of a Sant are described in Gurbani. But the public is critically deficient in this knowledge, because, any reference to this word is regarded with great suspicion. This facilitates only a widespread ignorance to flourish unimpeded, and the Sikh masses remains confused about the significance of meeting genuine Gursikhs or a genuine Sant. Nevertheless, this topic will continue to emerge, because Gurbani stresses upon company of a Sant as being indispensable. Since the establishment of Sat Sangat, we no longer wander in search of such an individual and we no longer follow someone who claims to be a Sant. Sadh Sangat is the place to be. Nevertheless, we must have a burning desire to be uplifted through company of such Gursikhs (1424:6-10) then Guru takes care of the rest. This is Guru's promise (e.g. page 204). Unfortunately, as they say, "When someone talks to God, we call it a prayer; but when God talks to someone, we call it schizophrenia." People may sing the Shabads idolizing the Sant and Sangat with utmost reverence, but they do not hesitate to denounce every Sant they will ever hear of. Something is seriously wrong here. As Guru Ji says, "Reach first for the root cause of disease" (450:14), before we can solve our internal problems, we need to remedy our lack of faith in the Panth, its garden, Sat Sangat, and its fruit, the Sant. Forgive me for repeating something we already know: without Gurbani there can be no Sat Sangat or Sadh Sangat (731:9, 160:6, 427:5). Shabad-Avatar, Gurbani, the living Guru, is an expression of God's love and it represents God Himself (1226:3, 515:17). Gurbani instructs us, so that we are honest with ourselves, with others, and with God. Gurbani implants the spiritual truth in our heart, often during those rare moments when we are absorbed in Kirtan, especially in Sadh Sangat (642:7). Someone may ask, "But, don't we know this already?" Let us see. We say Sangat represents the Guru, but our conduct shows that we do not really believe in it. Even those, who come to Gurudwara with a sincere desire to connect with Gurbani, sit with an inner disregard for the Sangat when, in fact, Sangat is the catalyst to connect us with the Guru. Most Sikhs today read the Gurbani verses regarding Sant with a resigned apathy. This is a testament of serious deficiency in our faith, akin to someone coming to an orchard but without an anticipation to find any fruit in there. In other words, we bow to the Guru but do not really believe in what the Guru says. A deficiency of this magnitude bears equally grave results. It should be no surprise to us that our problems continue. We lack direction, and quibble like children lacking adult supervision. Granted that, Bani with its Divine radiance continues to keep us spiritually intrigued. Kirtan of Gurbani in Sadh Sangat is meant to convert indolent masses into spiritual giants. However, it cannot do much for those who, implicitly, have no faith in its outcome, that Sant is a real person. We may sing and read Gurbani all our life, but without faith, our inner progress remains stunted. We know that Guru's Darshan is in Gurbani and it is revealed through Sangat. However, Gurbani can be only as good to us as our own faith in its teaching. As a first step, we must help each other in the Sangat by being absorbed in Gurbani with a sincere desire to be uplifted by the Sangat around us. Perhaps, this phenomenon of mutual spiritual support in Sangat needs to be studied further. Additionally, Sadh Sangat or company of perfect Sikhs is essential to learning the proper inner spiritual conduct. Gurbani stresses upon Sangat as an important step towards inner perfection, just as, one lamp lights another. We say Shabad is the Guru and that we receive everything from Gurbani. But, let us not forget that this is so only if we also obey, what Gurbani commands (982:10-11). Worshipping Gurbani but not doing what it says is just like someone worshipping a prescription but not taking the medicine prescribed therein. That would be just another form of idolatry. Rather, to feel satisfied with mere recitation of Gurbani and the rituals, without closeness to some perfect Gursikh some time in our life, is contrary to what Gurbani exhorts (e.g., 905:12, 204:5-8, 271:5-272:10). Gurbani also teaches us that there is no need to worship such Sikhs. The mere sight of a Sant is uplifting. Our eyes will betray the peace and dispassionate contentment that our soul regains in their company. Singing Gurbani with them is the way to liberation (1208:13-15, 898:8-13). But first, through God's mercy, we need that burning desire to see them. Only then, can we benefit from their company or recognize them. To a Sant, Gurbani is alive, and the Sant has fallen in love with it. This rubs off on us. Gurbani, then, takes a bright new meaning. This is the sign of true Sadh Sangat. Then we realize how, contact with Gurbani emancipates us (612:10). This changes everything. Section V Let us reiterate. Today, a Sant cannot replace Gurbani, the Guru, or the Panj Piyare, nor would a real Sant ever attempt to do so. Genuine Sikh Sant would claim to be only a Sikh and will kindle a desire in us so that we can be just like him, a true child of Guru Gobind Singh Ji. Sant is the pinnacle of Sikh Panth. If we continue to live as if this goal is unreachable and disregard seeking company of such Sikhs, then, either Gurbani has failed us or we have failed Gurbani. People tend to ignore the portions of Gurbani they cannot understand, or they derail them with some alternate meaning just because they lack faith in its simple and straightforward meaning. How can we claim to be in Sat Sangat if we do not believe in, and anticipate, its outcome? If we were truly in Sat Sangat, then, someone among us must be turning into a Sant every so often. Otherwise, we must be wrong somewhere. If we do not have this conviction in our heart, then, clearly we have a problem (881:13-19). Our faith in Gurbani is valid only if we have a yearning and a hope to meet a perfect Gursikh, sometime soon, within our lifetime. We need to anticipate it, and pray for it whenever we are in the Sangat (763:1-8). Gurbani is replete with Shabads saturated with this desire. They infuse vitality into the Sangat. If it were not so important, we would not have so many such Shabads. Guru Ji promises that there is always a Sant living somewhere in this world (1429:9, 1204:5). Sant is our role model, a testimony to the ultimate triumph of the Guru. However, emergence of our role model rests upon our own desire to meet such a person. Gurbani kindles this desire in our heart. Sant is the living proof that it is possible, today, as always, to become God-conscious while living in this society. Gurbani exhorts us, repeatedly, to have a yearning to see such perfect Gursikhs, just to assuage our doubts, if for no other purpose (810:13-17). Coming to Sangat with this desire is the road towards spiritual awakening. Here is a Shabad, regarding the qualities of Sant (adapted from translation by Dr. Sant Singh Khalsa): "Aasaa, Fifth Mehl: Twenty-four hours a day, they know the Lord to be near, they surrender to the Sweet Will of God. Only the One Name is the Support of the Saints, they consider themselves as dust of the feet of all. My brother, listen, to the conduct of the Saints, their greatness cannot be described. Pause. They trade only the Name of the Lord. They are the vision of bliss, Kirtan, the Praise of the Lord, is their repose. Friends and enemies are same to them, They know of no other than God. They erase millions upon millions of sins, dispelling suffering; they give spiritual life to the soul. They are brave, men of their word. The Saints have enticed Maya herself. Even the gods and the angels seek their company. Blessed is their Darshan, and fruitful is their service. With my palms pressed together, Nanak offers his prayer: O Lord, Treasure of Excellence, please bless me with the service of the Saints." (392:13-18) Disregard of this sacred term cannot protect us from the charlatans. It only promotes ignorance and certain superficiality. This creates a spiritual void among the Sikh masses and thus, it makes them vulnerable to individuals who claim to be a Saint or a Guru. As a result, while our congregations become anemic and ritualistic due to a deficiency in this vital component of Sat Sangat, many members become discouraged and leave to join some fervently misguided group away from the mainstream Sangat. A Sant would never allow this. It also results in attrition of our young members to various other spiritual and religious disciplines. Perhaps we expect too much from the masses. As Guru Ji has said, true seekers are rare souls. Being a revolutionary, Guru Nanak introduced the remedy, a unique method to liberate us en masse: Sat Sangat generated with Gurbani, augmented with music and singing from the heart. Kirtan of GurShabd or God's Word, in Sadh Sangat can gradually, or instantly, convert ordinary masses into Saints (642:7). In Sangat, Gurbani uses the ordinary Sikhs joined to sing Gurbani, to uplift each other, during the window of those elusive moments when the ego is silenced through Kirtan of Gurbani (1185:10). Whenever two or more Sikhs, with faith in the miracle of Sangat, join and sing Gurbani, they are creating a Sadh Sangat. On the other hand, a multitude joined for singing Gurbani, but lacking faith in the outcome of Sangat, succeeds in creating only, a multitude singing Gurbani. Let us never confuse the two as the same. It is amazing that even the faithless multitude gets blessed, with crumbs, falling from the feast enjoyed by those Gursikhs who cherish the Sangat and have a firm faith in its outcome. This is a miracle of Sat Sangat that everyone gets blessed by just being there (861:8, 493:2). Thus, in due course, an association with the Sangat is meant to spiritually awaken everyone. Section VI Guru Gobind Singh Ji gave us the formula: "Meditate upon the formless God, connect with the Shabad, and seek the glorious sight of the Khalsa." We need to follow this command thoroughly, with full faith and conviction. We know from the Bani of the Tenth Master that the definition of Khalsa is no different than the definition of a Sant. A Sant in the Sikh Panth today would keep the Rehit prescribed by the tenth Master, would dislike being called a Sant or a Guru, and would never lead the Sikhs away from mainstream Sangat into some eccentric group. These are some important qualities of a perfect Gursikh. Sangat of Guru Khalsa or such perfect Sikhs, and submitting to the Panj Piyare is the foundation of Sikh Panth. In conclusion, here is an excerpt, from 'Anmol Bachan' compiled by Surjit Kaur Gandhi, pp. 54-55. Once Sri Naranjan Singh Ji was asked, what is the definition of a perfect soul? His reply is translated as follows: "Perfect person is he who has the power to change the circumstances, the direction of events, but does not change because of the circumstances. Brahmgyani's words are more powerful than millions of soldiers. A Brahmgyani's word does not go to waste, as Guru Ji says, 'Sadhu's word is eternal' (1204:6). A perfect soul's command cannot be reversed here nor it can be reversed in heaven. Perfect souls can endure what would be otherwise impossible. They give hints, but do not tell their secrets. "A Brahmgyani, A perfect person's eyes sprinkle Amrit. Hearts that have been on fire are pacified. Their vision removes doubts and answers all questions. Their sight is peace giving and the mind comes to rest. Disturbance is replaced with Smadhi, poison is replaced with Amrit, and the tenth gate is opened. Perfect souls teach only Gurmat. They dispel darkness within our mind. "We must sustain perfect faith. If our faith is deficient then, there can be no knowledge or spiritual light. 'Those who did not know how to love, fall by the wayside' (1425:2) Perfect souls know other people's thoughts. God Himself is present with a perfect soul. This is not a secret. There is no trick involved here. 'He has placed Himself in the true Guru. This is declared openly' (466:8) "Once, during the Katha of Guru Arjan Dev Ji, Sant Ji said that a perfect soul's feet become spiritually alive. Dead used to wake up after being touched by Baba Amardas Ji's feet. Perfect beings live in gratitude. Their words are for everyone, in the entire world. Sant Attar Singh Ji used to say that Darshan is governed by the word (obeying the command). Seeing Akaal Purakh is having Darshan of the Guru. 'Gurmukh is in the Divine Sound and in the Vedas. Gurmukh is all pervading.' (2:8) "Time, space, and causation become nonexistent in the presence of a Perfect soul. 'My friends are only those, whose mere sight banishes my ignorance' (520:8) 'They are found standing where the accounts are being settled' (529:3) Such souls weigh every word seriously before uttering it. They are solemn, fathomless, and deep thinkers. They are the Sun of knowledge. Their personality is like the sea. Just as one cannot fathom the sea, one cannot fathom them either. Mahapurush have the experience of Gurmat. 'He, in whose heart Nirankar has taken residence, the entire world is delivered through his teaching' (269:9)" ~ End of excerpt Saints are the only humans that are truly alive in this world. The rest of us make up the bulk of Sikh Panth. Their company enlivens us (e.g., p. 881). Sant is the lifeblood on Panth. God hides Himself in a Sant's heart (718:11). Guru Ji says, "The sole purpose of a Jan (Sant) coming into this world is that we remember Naam in their company" (295:1). References: Sri Guru Granth Sahib. Here is a link to read the references: http://www.sikhnet.com/sggs/translation/0001.html source: Click here

Role of the Sangat and Sant in the panth: Section I An introduction to why meeting a Gurmukh is so important and what is the significance of Sat Sangat. In Gurbani, Sangat is listed as essential to living normal life as a human. Sat Sangat is just as important as reading Gurbani, because it transforms our heart so that we can truly understand the message of Gurbani. Is the Sangat working for us in this sense? If not, why not? Do we understand what Sat Sangat means? Does a crowd of people like us represent Sat Sangat? Does the company of others just like us, adequately fulfill all the conditions of being in the Sadh Sangat? In other words, what is the role of a Sadh or a Sant in Sikh Panth? Section II The meaning of Sadh or Sant: A Sikh Saint or Sant is someone who has achieved spiritual perfection and mastery over the personal self through Guru's mercy. A Sant is an extremely rare soul. But this should not discourage us, confuse us, or cloud our understanding that Sant is the model of a perfect Sikh, the person that Gurbani urges us to become. A Sant is someone who is devoted only to God and always lives in God's presence. In an apparent effort to save us from the charlatans, our scholars shroud and suppress our need to adore perfect Gursikhs as our role models, by distorting the meaning in Gurbani. However, the institution of Sangat, the Panj Piyare, and the rules of the Khalsa Panth, eliminate all danger from impostors. Those who claim to be a Guru or a Sant, leading the Sikhs away from mainstream Panth, are the ones we need to worry about. Additionally, we must avoid those teachers who disregard the Rehit prescribed by the tenth Master. Today's Sikh Sant is a Gursikh who keeps the Rehit of Khalsa, and someone who would not lead people into joining a 'Jatha' or a 'Dera' and thus, would not engage in fragmentation of the mainstream Sangat. Section III How is a Sant produced? We stay oblivious towards the essence, being busy all our life mistaking the shell for the kernel. Except for that rare individual called Sant, we all vacillate, and thus, we remain imperfect and keep falling off the path. Those rare individuals who seek the kernel, the essence, and through Guru's mercy, never turn their attention away from it, become perfect and they are known as a Sant. Being in dust from the feet of Sat Sangat, we can learn how to maintain a balance on this path. Judging by the numerous references to Sant it should be obvious to us that an insight into its meaning, and more importantly, its application is absolutely vital to our understanding of Gurmat and to succeed as a Sikh. The terms, Sikh, Gursikh, Brahmgyani, Gurmukh, Jan or HariJan, Mahapurush, Sadh, and Sant, are the names given to Sikhs at various spiritual stages. The Sant is a sacred and supreme state recognized within the Panth. Section IV How do we find a Sant? Since the establishment of Sat Sangat, we no longer wander in search of such an individual and we no longer follow someone who claims to be a Sant. Sadh Sangat is the place to be. Nevertheless, we must have a burning desire to be uplifted through company of such Gursikhs. Before we can solve our internal problems, we need to remedy our lack of faith in the Panth, its garden, Sat Sangat, and its fruit, the Sant. We may sing and read Gurbani all our life, but without faith, our inner progress remains stunted. We must help each other in the Sangat by being absorbed in Gurbani with a sincere desire to be uplifted by the Sangat. Sadh Sangat or company of perfect Sikhs is essential. Just as, one lamp lights another. But there is no need to worship such Sikhs. The mere sight of a Sant is uplifting. But first, we need that burning desire to see them. Only then, can we benefit from their company or recognize them. Section V If we continue to live as if this goal is unreachable and disregard seeking company of such Sikhs, then, either Gurbani has failed us or we have failed Gurbani. Our faith in Gurbani is valid only if we have a yearning and a hope to meet a perfect Gursikh, sometime soon, within our lifetime. Guru Ji promises that there is always a Sant living somewhere in this world. Sant is our role model, a testimony to the ultimate triumph of the Guru. Coming to Sangat with a desire to see such a Gursikh is the road towards spiritual awakening. The Shabads regarding the qualities of Sant, as one example given, should be studied carefully. Guru Nanak introduced a unique method to liberate us en masse: Sat Sangat generated with Gurbani, augmented with music and singing from the heart. Kirtan of GurShabd or God's Word, in Sadh Sangat can gradually, or instantly, convert ordinary masses into Saints. However, a multitude joined for singing Gurbani, but lacking faith in the outcome of Sangat, succeeds in creating only, a multitude singing Gurbani. Let us never confuse the two as the same. Section VI The formula: "Meditate upon the formless God, connect with the Shabad, and seek the glorious sight of the Khalsa" needs to be followed thoroughly, with full faith and conviction. A Sant in the Sikh Panth today would keep the Rehit prescribed by the tenth Master, would dislike being called a Sant or a Guru, and would never lead the Sikhs away from mainstream Sangat into some eccentric group. These are some important qualities of a perfect Gursikh. Sangat of Guru Khalsa or such perfect Sikhs, and submitting to the Panj Piyare is the foundation of Sikh Panth. Spiritual words of Sri Naranjan Singh Ji on this subject are recorded in this section. Saints are the only humans truly alive in this world. The rest of us make up the bulk of Sikh Panth. Their company enlivens us. Sant is the lifeblood on Panth. God hides Himself in a Sant's heart. Guru Ji says, "The sole purpose of a Sant coming into this world is that we remember Naam in their company." source: Click here

According to Mahan Kosh (P. 243) the term 'Sant' is derived from the Sanskrit word 'Saant' or 'Shaant', meaning spiritually poised i.e. keeping mental as well as physical feelings under control. According to Sri Guru Granth Sahib jee, a true 'Sant' (as per definition) will be humble and never claim to be a 'Sant'. Thus, anyone who claims himself a 'Sant' is probably not a 'Sant' in reality. The definition of a 'Sant' as mentioned in Sri Guru Granth Sahib jee, P. 392, Asaa Mehal Panjva. Hopefully you can read the Shabad yourself, the English translation is below, courtesy of Singh Sahib Sant Singh Khalsa, MD) Asaa Mehl Fifth Twenty-four hours a day, he knows the Lord to be near at hand; he surrenders to the Sweet Will of God. The One Name is the Support of the Saints; they remain the dust of the feet of all. ||1|| Listen, to the way of life of the Saints, O my Siblings of Destiny; their praises cannot be described. ||1||Pause|| Their occupation is the Naam, the Name of the Lord. The Kirtan, the Praise of the Lord, the embodiment of bliss, is their rest. Friends and enemies are one and the same to them. They know of no other than God. ||2|| They erase millions upon millions of sins. They dispel suffering; they are givers of the life of the soul. They are so brave; they are men of their word. The Saints have enticed Maya herself. ||3|| Their company is cherished even by the gods and the angels. Blessed is their Darshan, and fruitful is their service. With his palms pressed together, Nanak offers his prayer: O Lord, Treasure of Excellence, please bless me with the service of the Saints. ||4||37||88|| So only 'virley' (rarest of rare) fit the definition. source: Click here

Posting these lines from my reseach database: A true Sadh or saint will have six qualities as described in saskriti Sloak Number 40 on page 1357 of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. Following is a translation of the verses. Through the Mantra of the Name of the Lord, Raam, Raam, one meditates on the All-pervading Lord. Those who have the wisdom to look alike upon pleasure and pain, live the immaculate lifestyle, free of vengeance. They are kind to all beings; they have overpowered the five thieves. They take the Kirtan of the Lord?s Praise as their food; they remain untouched by Maya, like the lotus in the water. They share the Teachings with friend and enemy alike; they love the devotional worship of God. They do not listen to slander; renouncing self-conceit, they become the dust of all. Whoever has these six qualities, O Nanak, is called a Holy friend. || 40 Please note that that the last verse is translated partially. Complete translation should be that having six qualities, make a person puranamum purkha AND holy friend.

Reference from Sukhmani Sahib. In Sukhmani Sahib, Asthapadee 08, Paurhi 6 we read: "naanak barahm gi-aanee aap parmaysur" O Nanak, the God-conscious being is Himself the Supreme Lord God. http://allaboutsikhs.com/prayers/sukhmani/sukh08-03.htm In the same Asthapadee, Paurhi 8 we read: "barahm gi-aanee aap nirankaar" The God-conscious being is himself the Formless Lord. http://allaboutsikhs.com/prayers/sukhmani/sukh08-04.htm It is clear that the terms Sant or Brahm Gyani cannot properly be used for ANY human being no matter how spiritually accomplished he or she might be.

Wahe Guru Ji ka Khalsa, Wahe Guru ji ki Fateh, I have read most of the posts on this forum and came to this conclusion that "believe in sant or not" is still a question in Sikh youth's mind. Let's start this debate not to insult but to find out what truth is? so we can make our minds clear. I would like to invite all of you to have healthy discussion here so we can make it clear and this post can become reference for Sikh youth. Keep the below quotes in mind before starting this discussion. < Provide references with your post to prove your side, not your personal comments> Thanks

Sister, Those quotes are there to guide everyone with Gurbani that don't involve yourself in blaming each other or ORGS but discuss it with peace of mind and intelligently. My reply is still there to come as I said, so im not done but I wanted to paste that real quick so we don't go off the limits with our personal comments.

ok time to give my input to this debate. I have been reading it for long and I thought of posting few quotes from Gurbani so I can make it clear that everybody should understand Gurbani first if they want to question Sikh Rehat maryada or anything related to Amrit-Dhari Singhs. Here are the quotes: (473-14, Asa Mahala 1) naanak fikai boli-ai tan man fikaa ho-ay. O Nanak, speaking insipid words, the body and mind become insipid. fiko fikaa sadee-ai fikay fikee so-ay. He is called the most insipid of the insipid; the most insipid of the insipid is his reputation. fikaa dargeh satee-ai muhi thukaa fikay paa-ay. The insipid person is discarded in the Court of the Lord, and the insipid one's face is spat upon. fikaa moorakh aakhee-ai paanaa lahai sajaa-ay. ||1|| The insipid one is called a fool; he is beaten with shoes in punishment. ||1|| I will post my reply to on going debate soon.

As you know, they support Akal Thakhat Sahib, so I will use the Rehat Maryada link from SGPC. CHAPTER V Kirtan (Devotional Hymns Singing by a Group or an Indvidual) Article VI (a) Only a Sikh may perform Kirtan in a congregation. ( Kirtan means singing the scriptural compositions in traditional musical measures. © In the congragation, Kirtan only of Gurbani (Guru Granth's or Guru Gobind Singh's hymns) and, for its elaboration, of the compositions of Bhai Gurdas and Bhai Nand Lal, may be performed. (d) It is improper, while singing hymns to rhythmic folk tunes or to traditional musical measures, or in team singing, to induct into them improvised and extraneous refrains. Only a line from the hymn should be made a refrain. source: http://www.sgpc.net/rehat_maryada/section_..._chap_five.html

Here is what Sikh Kirtan Maryada say: Kirtan System (Maryada) The traditional kirtan system current during the period of the Gurus and at format functions today is as follows: (1) The musicians play a tune on the instruments as a prelude for a few minutes to create the proper environment and mood for kirtan. This is called Shan. (2) Then comes the invocation or an introductory prayer called Mangla-charan. Generally the verses beginning with “Dandot bandna anak baar, sarab kala samarathâ€[9] are sung in “dhamar†or “chartalâ€. It creates the appropriate bent of mind and spirit for the main raga and the Gurbani. (3) The main composition (or hymn) in classical raga generally follows in dhrupad style. As mentioned earlier, dhrupad is sung in four sections with appropriate tala played on the tabla. Sometimes a composition in partal follows the dhrupad. (4) The next piece is a hymn either in bara or chota khayal style. The hymn is substantiated by appropriate lines of Gurbani or parallel quotations (parmans) which are intended to seep through the mind and fill it with great rasa or feeling of peace. (5) The last piece is a small shabad or pauri sung as a finale. This marks the end of the kirtan session. The follows the routine of the Gurdwara. Anand sung if Karah Parsad has been prepared. This is followed by supplication (Ardas) and reading of any hymn (Hukum) from the Scripture, and the distribution of Karah Parsad.