dalsingh101

It isn't a microcosm of Mir Manu's caste ridden Hinduism either but we're getting there thanks to indifferent people.

Interesting. I'll have a read of the translation I have later tonight. Addition: Whoops no I can't, I packed my books up already. Are you sure because I vaguely recall the account mentioning Prithi Chand and I'm sure the author was aware of the contention between the Gur Arjan/Guru Hargobind and the detractors? Anyway, I'm detracting Sikhkhojees thread, but you should open up another one to look into the Dabistan thing maybe?

Don't you think a thing as big as bhagats formally converting to Sikhi would have been clearly mentioned by Bhai Gurdas ji?

Awesome! Thanks for the tip. I've downloaded it. I feel like I'm going back to prehistoric times being offline. But I'm sure it will have its benefits too.

Thanks.

The problem is people not applying enough scrutiny. We know people exaggerate things, especially in religious contexts. You can't ignore this, and you have to watch out for it if you really are serious about finding the truth. Nothing is worse then just accepting something because you like the sound of it. Provide proof yourself and show it wasn't over zealousness. Enthusiastic people sometimes need more sober, critical and grounded people for balance. I agree that some people can be too narrow minded and dismissive, I don't think I am one of them, but I point blank refuse to just go along with traditional accounts because, as you know yourself, frequently a closer study into received tradition shows up other things. I'm not suggesting we ignore or fail to record older traditional accounts, but we need to give them proper scrutiny. Like sullay do with hadiths. Do you know how much it damages people's faith to find things they have been told were 'certain' events since childhood looking otherwise from a proper inquiry of early sources of evidence. I know you do. All I'm saying is, don't add to this problem. In the end, such thing get used against us by the latest 'Sikh expert' or member of some preaching faith. So are you suggesting that because someone is a relative of the Guru they are infallible? Thinking like this comes and goes. Look at how (according to old manuscripts) people used to think Guru Nanak Dev ji was a reincarnation of Raja Janak (read Dabistan), how many Sikhs think that now? What about those people who today claim Guru Nanak went to Rome, Africa etc. etc.? People still have flights of fancy based on the most tenuous evidence even today. What is wrong with being cautious about this apparently common human behaviour? Either we scrutinise it, or wait for the next Hew McLeod to do it and try and bash us on the head with it. Maybe try understanding (not necessarily agreeing to) my position? We need to go through a 'hadith style' evaluation of many older 'traditions' in my opinion. This may well involve being cautious and not letting enthusiasm get in the way, when evidence is scant or 'weak'. Anyway, I've made my point above and adding anything else to it is just falthoo. I'll leave you to it.

Thank you. With the steeks Prabhjot Singh of SS posted on scribd, I now have plenty to read!

Thanks Maha Singh! I downloaded the links. I've got a few dictionaries already but really found the 'fuzzy' search function of the online Patiala University dictionary handy for colloquialisms and finding the meanings of variantly spelled words. Mithar, where can I download these from?

KDS's post illustrates the point perfectly. I do believe that sometimes brothers make suggestions in fits of zealous imagination, that are...err...shall we say tenuous at best. Then we end up arguing over these at a later point in history. Religious discourse in the past (and indeed probably now too!) seemed to have a high element of one faith trying to sort of subordinate the exalted figures of another faith to prove their supremacy. This is unnecessary and I feel the lowest form of religion. For me it matters little if the bhagats were Sikhs, all I need to now they were men of God - as verified by the men of God sent amongst our ancestor's midsts. I have a whole problem with fixing God to particular rasms these days, even ours. Jaap Sahib says the opposite to me. (I think Jaap Sahib is very significant to Sikhs because it gives a substantial and detailed account of the Sikh conceptualisation of God). I'm not going down the 'all religions are equal route' but saying that surely Waheguru would recognise men of true faith, compassion and purity regardless of the tradition they come from. That doesn't mean we become laissez faire about preserving and protecting our own panth by the way. We know for certain that Guru ji included the bani of bhagats who certainly weren't Sikhs into maharaj (i.e. Baba Fareed) so it certainly wasn't a prerequisite for acceptance into Sikh affections.

See, this is a perfect example of how a casteist comes along and instead of trying to discuss anything lofty regarding the faith, or anything that might help us better ourselves - wants to find justification for their casteism. Even when you post bani that unequivocally explains why they shouldn't they are still trying to find some 'technical clause'. lol You see this frequently, next he'll be pulling the 'it's an ethnicity not caste' card in desperation. Giving these people ANY leeway is a mistake because they only have one purpose which is to find some way of justifying what they do.

Try sending him a message on the forum? http://www.sikhawareness.com//index.php?showuser=269

I don't know how I'm going to get by without my online dictionaries! lol

As I am going offline for a while shortly I was wondering if I could download a copy of SGGS ji that I could read and search offline from anywhere? Anyone have any ideas?

None of us can do it alone, we all need to work in concert to achieve this positive change.

I understand your point. That being said Bhai Gurdas's work is pretty voluminous. tsingh has started (recently) making brief visits to the forum. I think for a lot of people bani itself coupled with orally transmitted stories were enough? Hence the paucity of literature in that period?

tsingh is the man with hidden info. He'd probably know of any now obscure works. Besides I don't get your question as a good few janam sakhis seem to have written in this period?

You're wrong. Vehement and consistent social disapproval can have a profound impact on behavior in a society. First it drives the undesired behaviour underground, then this slowly weakens over time. The people who defend, tacitly justify or are easy going about jaat paat in the panth thus help it persist. When enough people in the community vocally (and through their actions) refuse to accept that type of nonsense and condemn it, people will get the message. Once enough people adopt the 'anti-casteism' stance, those that persist will eventually end up marginalised and either become weirdos or change their errant ways. Do your bit or don't stop others doing theirs. This needs to be a very personal matter for every apna because it is blatantly causing all manner of fissures and ugly scenes in our already small and vulnerable community. The inevitable battleline is going to be those who are pro-caste against those who aren't. It's like a hump we have to get over. Everyone has to ask him/her self where they truly stand on this matter. I think you can all take a guess as to what my position is.

One moment you say "we need to tell our people 'wtf!' about how they go on about stuff like this", then when someone does, you come out with the above crap. Well done.

I signed up some time ago. I think it was 1 year free access, but so far I've not been barred from access (not sure if I've got to a year yet). I'm as stingy as the next guy but this thing is one of the few I would have no problems spending money on. What they are doing is priceless, especially given what happened to our historical literature in 84.

Sachkhand doesn't appear to be a physical place. I don't claim to understand the khands right now, but this seems excluded. If Sikhs accept that living beings can merge back with the divine (achieve sachkhand) whilst in an earthly existence (a jivan mukht) then how does it become some spatial-temporal residential zone of Waheguru? It doesn't correspond to the Semitic concept of heaven where God sits. Also Jaap Sahib describes God as ਅਧਾਮੰ , ਨ੍ਰਿਦੇਸੇ , ਨ੍ਰਿਧਾਮੇ , ਅਜਾਹ clearly emphasising the point. And why are you mixing Abrahamic mythology with Sikhi? You can't hammer the Lucifer/God conflict into Sikh cosmology like you are trying to. Inventive as it is, it is without any antecedent in Sikh scripture. What you are trying to do is create a false sense of integration between two very distinct faiths. It's creative but there is no need for it.

None of the people I am talking about are illiterate, and all know rudimentary English (the basics of which is often learned in India). My point is that they don't make any effort to develop what they know and improve it. It's that old 'chalda' mentality. The whole notion of learning for purposes other than money making seems lost to our society? Which we know wasn't the case pre-annexation. It is a recent trend. Again it's a sort of intellectual laziness of sorts. The fact that you reside in a country and have children there should mean you make the effort to master the language of the country. Yes, and some are understandable like lack of opportunity, but too often our people don't bother to learn because of simple laziness and ignorance.

I'm talking about people who've been settled in English speaking countries for a while but make very little sustained effort to polish their English language skills and are happy to just scrape by using a sort of pidgin English. Maybe that's changing now? I knew a good few 'uncle jis' who had been here for years and spoke quite atrocious English. That's pretty lazy (unless they had special needs).

I think considering sachkhand as some literal/physical place is a misinterpretation. I mean how many times does Jaap Sahib tell us that God has no particular place. And what can you see in bani that gives support to the notion of rebellious devta like Lucifer? If anything Sikhi suggests that even asuras worship him.

Yep. But I'm thick, talentless and cantankerous to boot. So I most probably wont be making big money any time soon.