dalsingh101

I bet pendus back home don't even register that people are living shitty lives like this here in the UK. And if you told them, and provided evidence they would still have a picture of 'gold paved streets' in their minds.

Ahhhh....The Daily Mail... Also known as 'The Daily Hate' on this here island. This organ is legendary for pushing it's own anti immigrant, right wing, pseudo-colonialist worldview in England. A lot of people consider it's readers 'bigotry inclined'. So they have their own issue with the kind of social pressure they help create with their whining. That being said, the sexualisation of children in the west is something that needs to be addressed. Banning clothes isn't going to go very far in doing this. A lot of working class kids have had sex during their teenage years here. It has Europe's highest teenage pregnancy rate. I wonder why?

I noticed this as well. I've began to feel that it's easy to get embroiled in santhiya issues as variations exist. It might be a good idea to choose a school and just stick with it, whilst not getting judgmental with those who may follow another interpretation. Just do your own with full sharda. I don't know if we have a Kartarpur bir type, definitive recension of the Dasam Granth. I was surprised at minor variations in gutkay myself. When I tried to ask the giani to clarify, he was no help.

Bhen ji I think Baba Nanak uses dialect variants in bani. As you probably know, in Panjabi v and d can be interchangeable hence 'dekh la' and 'vekh la' can be equally correct for 'watch it'. Guru ji also does this with the interchangeable 'b' and 'v', so in Japji we have: Whilst Rehras has: Personally I think it may have been done to encompass the variations in the language and not favour one particular dialect over the other.

hhmmmm.... That is a simplification. The pinds were terrorised. Plus being in a backwater the police could get away with more (on a systematic basis) as opposed to in a densely populated urban area with educated, respectable people about. That is an interesting notion. Maybe they would have cut their hair earlier (after annexation) had the WASPS not made it mandatory for them to keep kesh for employment in the army? But now you mention it, when I was growing up in London, it was mostly the Jatt kid's fathers who would have cut hair, almost every nonJat Sikh's father had a pagh. Strangely most if not all African Jatts kept their paghs proudly, those pointy ones normally associated with Dugoo Ramgarhias. Maybe it's all related to the status obsession thing? No perceived status/value in wearing a pagh today, so they are lax about it?

Well what do you think it is then?

Maybe it was the perceived defeat of the militant lehar in the 90s then? The very people who are now deserting the roop in droves were considered to be the backbone of this. Maybe the whole experience has a hand in all this? Is it the result of some sort of demoralisation at events? Could it just be Hollywood and Bollywood's influence? Maybe it's a whole confluence of reasons i.e. all of the above (and more) in varying degrees?

Well there could multiple reasons for this. Some of it may be subconscious or even conscious inferiority complex. Everyone knows most pendus dream of coming to the west and living the western lifestyle. They are just 'approximating' that impulse by dressing like they feel is normal here, there. Plus people frequently overcompensate for perceived shortcomings. So being from a pend (and being associated with backward rurality this identity frequently carries) may make them try harder to be modern hence a higher incidence there? Maybe some of the urbanites are plainly more comfortable with themselves? Also are the same type of families inhabiting pends and towns? If not, maybe the subcommunity in the towns have a different priorities/perspectives than the villagers that cause this? Plus the uncomfortable thought that maybe some of the pend people's alliance to Sikhi was/is more to do with economic uplift than actual deep conviction in the faith and now that Sikh villagers are no longer making big profits and having big status, they jettison the external symbols that previously defined them with abandon? This last point is not as simple as that though, because these people still retain their Sikh religious identity despite this, so it does mean something to them. Interesting question popped in my head: Do young Sikh villagers in Panjab feel constrained or disadvantaged by the roop these days? I know the VAST majority of freshies I meet here are monay these days.

That issue is more complicated than "they changed because they cut their hair" to me.

That is not about to go away. People often see bani as some sort of 'talisman' that they can use to remove difficulties in life magically. Every society does this. Even so called modern western one can pile on pressure in the form of making people feel backwards, archaic and redundant because they do not want to follow the 'modern trend'. A while ago I would have been against the use of guilt trips but nowadays I'm not. The question is setting up our society so they feel intense guilt about things they should feel that way about such as female foeticide, Gurdwara abuse, casteism, hypocrisy and general pendu stupid behaviour like going caveman when it is not warranted. Our societies problem is that it doesn't get its priorities right in this respect and thus we end up focusing on things targeting the individual rather than systemic problems in our society as a whole. I don't see ANY let up on our conservatism at the moment nor any on the horizon. We need an increase in progressive families until they outnumber the small minded and change the flavour of the quom in this respect.

I hear you but also factor in that prior to annexation the turban was worn by a big percentage of Sikhs and if any of the puratan literature of the time is anything to go by, they still did a lot of stuff that would be considered hardcore Hindu by Sikhs today. So the relationship isn't as linear as you are suggesting. Which generation are you talking about?

That might be considered an achievement by some but having known a fair few keshdhari Sikhs who drunk, took drugs, shagged about when not under the radar of the olders, I wonder what kind of success this is? I too remember a time when others would exalt Sikhs for keeping their external form abroad, but when the underlying belief/ actions associated with the roop isn't demonstrated by many of those compelled to keep it due to conservatism, I do wonder if we are celebrating a pyrrhic victory?

I think as humans, we seem to be hardwired to care about societies opinion. Panjabis are some of the worse culprits at this too. Being looked down upon by people you respect for any reason terrifies apnay to a inordinate degree. They consider it a loss of that mysterious thing called 'izzat'. Even many Amritdharis are very susceptible to the social pressures of the jatha they affiliate with. You can see this cracking up sometimes on SS where you will get 'gupt' posts by people who are in abject misery and confess to what amounts to a 'charade' in front of their jatha when under the surface they have lots of other things going on. So to me it looks like social pressure is something that all (most) of us experience to some degree. I also think that given the level of openness and conservativism in a society, one will be more confident about exposing goings on that goes against the grain then another. In this respect again Sikh society is very conservative (in my opinion) because we ALL know we have a lot of double lives going on in the community and a lot of what goes gets swept under the carpet like alcoholism, gurdwara abuse and hordes of apneean acting like slappers for example. So it seems to boil down to the issue of which society/group social pressure you conform to, as opposed to the notion that some people are largely immune to such things and others not?

Some people have it relatively easy growing up. Some real tough. It's reality. That doesn't prevent healthy people who've come from unquestionably affluent, secure, non abusive environments turning themselves into some sort of victims. Human psychology is crazy like that sometimes.

It starts at 26.20 http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b011qjtw/Newsnight_01_06_2011/

The topic that's been opened up here is a fascinating one. How much we are influenced by society and why some people couldn't care a toss whilst others are malleable by societal pressure like plasticine. I do remember hearing a lecturer talking about studies that indicated that women were more susceptible to such pressures. I know you get the occasional exceptions but what I've generally seen seems to confirm this notion? Mind you. These days it's hard to meet blokes who aren't sheep either.

I get it now: ਥਲ ਕੌੜੀ ਥਿਆਹ ਨਾਲ ਹਸਿਆ॥ The earth laughed with a bitter thirst Thanks

ਅਲੋਪ - pronounced remarkably like the English word 'elope' but with an 'a' sound at the beginning as opposed to an 'e'. Definition: Concealed, invisible, hidden, vanished, unseen. I guess it can also be used to refer to what is known as 'occultation'?

Maybe they were just being polite and diplomatic by not rudely dismissing the American hospitality?

http://www.oldmagazinearticles.com/pdf/WW2%20sikhs.pdf

Yes. Yes. You are right but I came across it as an actual verb meaning hurt (see below). The writer may have used it wrongly? ਇਸ ਲਈ ਮੈਂ ਉਸਨੂੰ ਫਿਰ ਘਾਇਲ ਕਰ ਦਿੱਤਾ Yes, also bundle or stack as in bundle of notes. Yes. Or evidence. Right again.

Makes sense. Might be a typo for ਤਿਜੌਰ.

ਤਜੋਰੀ as in: ਅਵਾਰਿਓ ਬੇਵਕੂਫ਼ੋ! ਖੋਲ’ਤੀ ਆਪਣੀ ਤਜੋਰੀ ਪਿਆਰਿਓ ਮਾ ਦੇ ਜਾਇਓ ਕਰਾ’ਤੀ ਘਰ ਦੀ ਚੋਰੀ

Yes, or pitiless. I think maybe remorseless too. I came across these in the following poem: ਕੁਰਸੀ ਤੇ ਮੇਜ਼ ਕੁਰਸੀ ਤੇ ਮੇਜ਼ ਦਾ ਝਗੜਾ ਹੋਇਆ ਲੱਕੜ ਤੇ ਲੋਹਾ ਦਾ ਲਹੂ ਚੋਇਆ॥ ਹਲ ਖੇਤ ਦੀ ਮਿੱਟੀ ਨਾਲ ਰੁਸਿਆ ਥਲ ਕੌੜੀ ਥਿਆਹ ਨਾਲ ਹਸਿਆ॥ ਸਾਥੀ ਕਦੇ ਆਪਸ ਵਿੱਚ ਖ਼ੁਸ਼ ਨੇ? ਕੁਆਰੇ ਇਹਨਾਂ ਵੱਲ ਤੱਕ ਕੇ ਜਲਦੇ ਜ੍ਹੋੜੀਆਂ ਵੇਖ ਕੇ ਸੀਨੇ ਬਲਦੇ॥ ਇਹ ਹੈ ਇਨਸਾਨ ਦੀ ਦਸ਼ਾ ਇਹ ਹੈ ਪਰੇਮੀਆਂ ਦਾ ਨਸ਼ਾ॥ ਸਜਦਾ ਕੁਰਸੀ ਮੇਜ਼ ਦਾ ਮੇਲ ਕਾਠੀਬਾਜ਼ ਦੀ ਇਹ ਹੈ ਖੇਲ॥ To be honest I'm still not sure of the meanings? What does this line mean? ਥਲ ਕੌੜੀ ਥਿਆਹ ਨਾਲ ਹਸਿਆ॥ Yes i.e. tune, melody, musical measure, tenor. It can also apparently be a synonym for ਸ਼ੈਲੀ i.e. mode, manner, fashion, style, form.