singh2

after that waheguruseeker satrted like this Tejwant ji I live in that area and know these committees much better than you know them. I am in touch with them especially Chairman of san Jose committe for the last 29 years.So no need for any recommendation from you. Why do not you come over here and we can visit these Gurudwaras jointly. But anyway it does not pertain to this thread. Let us focus on Dasam granth taht you have been calling as Hindu Granth .It is good time to remove our misgivings. . Tejwant singh ji I know you from other forums as well. You have come recently to SPN.Why do not you start a thread and i will condense your posts that shows your ideology about Dasam granth and terming me Hindu for defending this scripture. You have done it here many times. But let us deal with this thread first as it may help in removing your misgivings. You come over here and i will go with you to these Gurudwaras myself. i will also carry with me a dossier of your insults about Dasam granth . INcidentally these committees have not an iota of doubt in their mind about the authenticity of Dasam Granth ji.One of the founder of the Gurdwara you mentioned has prakash of Dasam Granth beer in his home. They will be able to know your views. Please let me when you are coming after fixing your travel plans. Tejwant ji Dal singh seems to have raed Sikh history quite well. As you have not seen any Hukmanama of sahib Guru gobind singh ji, you do not know Guru sahib's handwriting. He is saying what he has seen. The manuscripts we are talking has signature of Guru sahib also. What other solid proof you want.Why do not you go for otehr parameter like internal evidence of Sri dasam Granth Sahib. Gurbani says what to argue with someone who himself puts a question and himself answers. My request again, let us not turn this thread inpolemics. Ask me if you have doubts on sri Dasm Granth sahib and i will try to answer to my limited ability. Your bpresence will enhance the occasion and they will be able to know you. I will pay your ticket even. Do not spoil the thread. talk about Dasam granths sahib. What are your reasons for calling Dasam Granth a Hindu scripture. Give us reference here. It is time to remove your misgivings about Dasam granth sahib. Please let us know what is internal evidence that makes you to say that it is hindu scripture.

This is how debate started there My reply to Dal singh Reply by Inder singh( singh2) You have to see the background of Sikh struggles. How Guru ji had to leave Anandpur, Scriptures falling into the hands of Muslims and lot of literature swept away by inflated Sirsa.Please take these factors into account before commenting. Need to remember that there were scribes employed by guru ji for compilation of Dasam Granth. His hand written pages are there but not all was not written in his hand. His hand written pages are known as khas patras. Corrections in his hand writing are all over the manuscript. Also original beer called Hazuri beer is held by a private house. What we are seeing is digitized copy. Very few people have seen this beer. then comes waheguruseeker Tejwant ji It is not speculation. it is a reality. Is Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji written by Guru sahib. There was scribe for that. Here also scribes were there. additionally we have hand written pages of Guru sahib also. His hand writing is recognizable. he has also done corrections on many pages. I had invited you to ahve a look on this. You turned down my offer. Re: Dasam Granth and its History >> My question still remains unanswered. How do you know it is Guru Gobind Singh ji's handwriting? Compared to what? Your question was answered but it was not posted on the message board. I do not know why it was withheld. There is a post of Dal singh that says as below The text on the left folio does indeed resemble what I have been told was dasmesh pita's handwriting in a hukum nama. It is good that there is somebody who has seen handwriting of Guru Sahib in his Hukamnama and has testified to that. You should believe him if not me. If you do not want to believe what Sikhs have on dasam granth,That is your prerogative.Shoew me the refrence from Sikh history where a doubt was cast on Dasam Granth before Teja singh Bhasaur. That should seal this issue. You should read your posts carefully to know who is creating falsehood.I can post those references if you desire. Start a different thread.Do not bring those issues in this thread as such digressions lead to polemics and hence result in spoiling the thread. I had the impression that discussion is on dasam Granth. Let us focus on that. Any other query on the topic is welcome. Then mentor waheguruseeker had no question.

Your buddies slander bani of our Guru. You remain there listening to venom of waheguruseeker. do you debate there. there is no debate. Iwas called for debate but all i listened was like a court case where personal slander was involved. all your buddies do there is to promote kala afghan ideology. You call it debate. What a sham you have created there. So a bob cut who resorts to frequent lies is a sikh.That is the type of sikhi you want to bring it in now. Your kala afgana agenda is bared.

Religion is a book of science. Purpose of religion is to get rid of cycle of rebirths and death by meditating on God. So the experience fo those who ahve realized God serves as a way of laerning for the aspirant. WhaT kala has to prove by his non-believer theory? Please enlighten us. A stupid question from an agnostic. A sikh does not worship to get salvation. A sikh meditates for love of God.

randeep You should have some civic sense. In fact you are proving to be a monkey. You have kala afghana sect as your mentors. Your mentor Giani writes someones article under his name. To suppress others view point you resort to censorship over there. it is the magnanimity of this forum that you have been allowed to say this. Antonia , adm of SPN,is touted as a sikh by a moderator and she is a bob cut american. This is the sikhi you are bringing claimto promote. For you guys Sharam dharm doen chhip khaloye Koor phire pardhan ve lalo Who is monkey? You are the monkey.

They delete his posts. Giani has virtually taken over that site with the help of one adminitrator anthonia. Amn singh took some action yesterday and warned khalsa fauj. It seems a lot is going on without aman singh's knowledge.

Mithar ji where do you live. Is it canada? we are in the process of formulating some strategy.

You are dead on dot. Gurmit singh aulakh was called by a sikh organization to San francisco last year. After seminar i counterd him while standing in a queue for langar. I asked him why is he criticizing dasam granth? He did not know anything about dasam granth. he had been brainwahsed by Gurtej singh IAS. That is one reason i distanced myself from this group. I asked him how will you protect sikhism in khalistan when he himself was destroying it. Any suggestion to counter it. I was part of a group in organizing a seminar on dasam granth in sacramento last year. i have some people who are willing to support me on this. Any suggestions are wlcome. We owe it to our guru and our future generations.

There is an american who joined sikhism through yogi Bhajan. His name is Amar prakash singh. later he left he yogi bhajan but retained his sikh saroop. A few days back he wrote an article " Losing my religion." The main crux was that he will lose his saroop but will retain spirituality. He also made some comments on SGGS ji and a singh told that he will post these on other sites. Given below is the reply of adminitrator Anthonia of SPN which proves that aim of the site is commercialism and not any love for sikhi. http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-youth/2...kash-singh.html Singh ji Please post your critiques of SPN all over the Net and to your heart's content. Every time you or a member of your cohort attempts a smear campaign of SPN our net traffic increases by 100 percent or more (not an exaggeration) and visitors translates into members at higher rates too. It is always a pleasre.

I agree with your views 100 percent. to be politically correct is not a sikh way especially when oyur Guru is being slandered. We need to combat such forces. Had we done it earlier it would have been much better for us. Kala afghan cult does not have following. Their main preaching is confined to internet.

While departing Guru gobind singh said Pooja akal ki Parcha shabad ka Didar Khalse ka Institution of Panj piaras represent Guru Panth. You may not believe it. it is upto you. That is what rehatnama of Bhai Prehlad singh says.

He is the same person. A super class idiot , an atheist and anti dasam granth person.

you are right. i was alone. I caught them many times on wrong footing. They were deleting my replies. Then i caught them stealing someone's article and putting undder Giani Jarnail singh's name. Giani cann't write such articles. That article was written by anthonia for him. Also the subject thread is Amrit vela and see what reasoning so called mentor isdoing. Please see below Aman singh Kala afghani mentor of SPN wrote in his article Quote http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/dasam-granth...ar-month-3.html Now, I personally like the latter, but the prevailing meaning is the prior one... I searched for "Amrit Vela" in Guru Granth Sahib, and found only 3 shabads (please correct if I am wrong): 1. Amrit Vela, Sach Naao, Vadeyai Veechar (Pg.2) <PAGE 2 - Punjabi Translation of Siri Guru Granth Sahib (Sri Guru Granth Darpan).> Here it means the time of full blossom, the time of enlightenment 2. Amrit Velae Vatay Har Bhagti, Har Liv Laayi (Pg 734) <PAGE 734 - Punjabi Translation of Siri Guru Granth Sahib (Sri Guru Granth Darpan).> Here, in the meanings, he meant "the ealry time of spiritual life" 3. Babiha Amrit Velae boleya <PAGE 1285 - Punjabi Translation of Siri Guru Granth Sahib (Sri Guru Granth Darpan).> Here Prof Sahib means the dawn, but I know that BrainFever bird or Babiha, shrieks all day and night before monsoon. More, by Shaikh Fareed ji "PAGE 1383 - Punjabi Translation of Siri Guru Granth Sahib (Sri Guru Granth Darpan)."Fareeda, pichhal raat na jaageyoh, jeevadro muyeoh" Could this mean the dawn of the life, instead of usual day's dawn?? unquote The above is a direct copy from Babiha's blog See below BABIHA I searched for "Amrit Vela" in Guru Granth Sahib, and found only 3 shabads (please correct if I am wrong): 1. Amrit Vela, Sach Naao, Vadeyai Veechar (Pg.2) <PAGE 2 - Punjabi Translation of Siri Guru Granth Sahib (Sri Guru Granth Darpan).> Here it means the time of full blossom, the time of enlightenment 2. Amrit Velae Vatay Har Bhagti, Har Liv Laayi (Pg 734) <PAGE 734 - Punjabi Translation of Siri Guru Granth Sahib (Sri Guru Granth Darpan).> Here, in the meanings, he meant "the ealry time of spiritual life" 3. Babiha Amrit Velae boleya <PAGE 1285 - Punjabi Translation of Siri Guru Granth Sahib (Sri Guru Granth Darpan).> Here Prof Sahib means the dawn, but I know that BrainFever bird or Babiha, shrieks all day and night before monsoon. Source:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=25573 (Amrit vela on moon ? Once a lunar month !!)://http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showt...nth !!)://http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showt...nth !!)://http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showt...nth !!) More, by Shaikh Fareed ji "PAGE 1383 - Punjabi Translation of Siri Guru Granth Sahib (Sri Guru Granth Darpan)."Fareeda, pichhal raat na jaageyoh, jeevadro muyeoh" Could this mean the dawn of the life, instead of usual day's dawn?? Since, I am trying to look at every angle and then finding the Truth, so that it cannot be shaken from any angle, let us go in Science now... Now you tell me why they are doing this. Hypocrites and liars. http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?showto...=12#entry420869

What is khulash? Dal singh ji, let us not try to justify our weaknesses to follow sikh rehat for belittling our religious scriptures. That has become a fashion these days. That is what mntors of SPN are preaching to sikh youngsters.

See the beautiful photo in harmandir sahib with two Granths in prakash http://www.patshahi10.org/index.php?option...h&Itemid=63

Academic study and spiritual study are completely different realms. Spiritual study does not need Ph Ds Guru sahib has written ਜੋ ਪ੍ਰਾਣੀ ਗੋਵਿੰਦੁ ਧਿਆਵੈ ॥ ਪੜਿਆ ਅਣਪੜਿਆ ਪਰਮ ਗਤਿ ਪਾਵੈ ॥੧॥: Jo praanee Govind dhiaavai. Parhiaa anparhiaa param gati paavai ||1||: That mortal who meditates on God, whether educated or uneducated, obtains the Supreme State ||1|| (sggs 197) They were sent for education to benares to learn language of hindu scriptures. The idea was when engaged in debate they should know Hindu scriptures. guru ji knew that Sikhs will have to enter in dialogue with Hindus to prove their view point. Example is debate of Giani diit singh with Swami daya nand where Daya nand was defeated. Niramalas were finest sikh scholars. Do not tell me that Attar singh ji Mastuana was following Vedanta. All sikhs were nihungs in the beginning. Guru gobind singh was himself a Nihung. Read your history. But they were all keshadharis on the way to become khalsa. Sikhs have two gurus, Guru Granth and guru panth. guru panth is for temporal affairs of sikhs. A sikh is a saint-soldier. That is why Harmandir sahib and akal takhat. We are not comparing our Granths. both granths are equally important and are not rivals. They complement each other. Nothing change overtime. that is your concept but not of sikhs at large and akal takhat. Source material of some compositions was in existence but it was changed drastically to conform to sikh thought. . DG parkash ws always there. read below Guru-mata - Sir John Malcolm (1812 AD) E-mail Print PDF august- theodore- schoefft-ds-ranjit-singh Maharaja Ranjit Singh listening to the two sacred Granths being recited near Sri Harimandir Sahib. (A Painting by August Theodore Schoefft (1809-1888), made in Amritsar. From Princess Bamba Collection) Note: The following is an excerpt from a book, Sketch of the Sikhs, a singular nation in the province of Penjab,written by Sir John Malcolm* in 1812. John Malcolm’s work is one of the rarest firsthand information recorded by a western historian on the lifestyle, belief systems and traditions of the Sikhs in Punjab during the 18th century . Guru-mata When Gurmata or great national council, is called, (as it always is, or ought to be, when any imminent danger threatens the country, or any large expedition is to be undertaken) all the Sikh chiefs assemble at Amritsar. The assembly, which is called the Guru-mata, is convened by the Acalis; and when the chiefs meet upon this solemn occasion, it is concluded that all private animosities cease, and that every main sacrifices his personal feelings at the shrine of the general good; and, actuated by principles of pure patriotism, thinks of nothing but the interests of the religion, and commonwealth, to which he belongs. When the chiefs and principal leaders are seated, the Adi-Granth and Dasama Padshah ka Granth are placed before them. They all bend their heads before these scriptures, and exclaim, Wa! Guruji ka Khalsa! Wa! Guruji ki Fateh! A great quantity of cakes, made of wheat, butter, and sugar, are then placed before the volumes of their sacred writings, and covered with a cloth. These holy cakes, which are in commemoration of the injunction of Nanac, to eat and to give to others to eat, next receive the salutation of the assembly, who then rise, and the Acalis pray aloud, while the musicians play. The Acalis, then the prayers are finished, desire the council to be seated. They sit down, and the cakes being uncovered, are eaten of by all classes of Sikhs: those distinctions of original tribes, which are, on occasions, kept up, being on this occasion laid aside, in token of their general and complete union in one cause. The Acalis then exclaim: "Sirdars! (Chiefs) this is Guru-mata!" on which prayers are again said aloud. The chiefs, after this sit closer, and say to each other: "The sacred Granth is betwixt us, let us swear by our scripture to forget all internal disputes, and to be united." This moment of religious fervor and ardent patriotism, is taken to reconcile all animosities. They then proceed to consider the danger with whcih they are threatened, to settle the best plans for averting it, and to choose the generals who are to lead their armies against the common enemy. The first Guru-mata was assembled by Guru Govinid; and the latest was called in 1805, when the British army pursued Holkar into the Penjab. (pages. 120-123) ________________________ *Sir John Malcolm (May 2, 1769 ‑ 1833) was a Scottish soldier, statesman, and historian. He held various distinguished posts, being Ambassador to Persia, Resident of Gwalior (1803-1804) and Governor of Bombay 1827-1830. He was the author of several valuable works regarded as authorities, viz., Sketch of the Sikhs, a singular nation in the province of Penjab (1812), A History of Persia (1815), Memoir of Central India(1823), Political History of India from 1784 to 1823 (1826), and Life of Lord Clive (1836)

Yes i am Inder singh in the same way as you are dal singh. Dal singh ji, religion does not conform with time. Your history knowledge is also flawed. Udasis, Nirmalas Nihungs were there in guru ji's times also.There is no permanent category as sehajdhari in sikhism, Read Bhai Kahan singh ji's maha kosh. I say that our scriptures are final. No religion allows debate on authenticity of its scriptures. Then we are openinga pandora's box as human have different opinions. Please show me a reference form sikh history where authenticity of Dasam granth which is our accepted scritpure is challenged. i am ready to go with you if you show me one.

N30 singh ji Thanks for realizing the issues at stake. It is not a personal issue. I wrote there that you can hurl abuses on me but since your kala afghani mentors Giani and waheguruseeker are name calling Dasam granth, i will keep on confronting them even though they delete my posts. Waheguruseeker was here but left when his bullying tactics were not allowed. He is welcome back. Discussion should be on dasam granth and basic sikh issues Gurmantra, waheguru as Gurmantra, naam simran, amrit vela , soul, karma and reincarnation. Aman singh came to post on Sikh sangat and he was replied to. Below is the link http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?showto...12&start=12

Please see the heading. It is slander of Dasam Granth. There should not be any diversity on teachings of our gurus. Those who do not want to follow can walk out. It is not diversity but blasphemy.

matheen ji It is not a personal probelm of anybody. That includes me. To combat anti sikh propaganda is the duty of every Sikh. Since they clamp censorship on opposing views,It is perfectly in order to make sangat aware of anti sikh stance being promoted there especially permission to hurl abuses on our scriptures.

Dalsingh101 Be truthful here. A number of times moderators and not forum memebers delete any post giving rferences form AKJ and Damdami taksal sources. One moderator openly says that these refrences are not allowed. Do you want proof of that? Why that. Are not these sikh organizations.

Incidentally it is noteworthy to point out that kala afghana reject 1) Concept of Gurmantra and waheguru as Gurmantra 2) He also rejects Naam simran and amrit vela 3) Says there is no soul 4) No belief in Karma, reincarnation On the same line two mentors of kala afghan thought say Nam simran is raed SGGS ji and that is naam simran. They do not believe that nam simran starts with jap and the by Guru's grace it become simran and ajapa jap. They say it is Hinduism and those who believe in this are hindus.

http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?showto...t=0&start=0 I have observed that of lately Sikh philosophy network site is turning into a kala afghna mouthpiece. There are some die hard anti Dasam Bani people who have been made mentors on that site. They slander bani of Dasam granth on one pretext or the other. They also interpret SGGS ji in a totally different way. They write that there is no gurmantra and naam simran in sikhi. New meanings of Amrit vela are being given.Any effort to combat that is nipped in the bud. Does anyone has experience on that site. Please share that here.

Moghals knew the writings of sikh gurus and also the depth of Bhai gurdas ji. Who is jagjit singh. Was he the buddy of Daljit singh

Randip Do not behave like a child. Try to grow up.