CaNaDiAn_jAtTi

This is for Mr. Bikramjit ji... Ji, if the explanation for the arrogance that someone exhibits during a game is that there's thousands of fans screaming MAN U the best and all... does that mean that you've got a couple hundreds fans behind ur comp, screaming Bikramjit, u da bomb??? Jus wondering

nope, not using them.... I don't know if i would cuz of all the chemicals that must be in them, u'd be more than likely to swallow some of that stuff and that can't be good for u...

Whoa buddies... chill and calm down... Obviously no one took the time to read what I wrote in response to neo ji's replies to me... (except for steel ji).... Mates... there's a fundamental crime when u call ur daughters izzat... You're treating them more as property then u are as human beings. And to desi Kuddi Ji, no i'm not proud of being a property that is looked after by her father, only to be given to her husband to take care of her and then who must rely on her son for support. I am an individual with thoughts, feelings and my own personality... I am in equal within my household with my parents and my siblings... in some ways (being the eldest of three daughters) I am the son of the family making sure that everyone is alrite and helping out my parents with whatever they need... To me that is an equal.... I do not pride myself in this punjabi culture of the being the izzat of the family as it demoralizes females and tends to subdue them rather than bringin out the strong inner shakti in them... in the punjabi culture females are a burden to their family.... I AM NOT!... Also never did I say that the father was a gursikh.... my comments were mainly with the board members that had said that basically they understood the reason why the father killed his daughter... out of rage for her going out with a gora behind their back... One cannot understand nor sympathize with an action such as this... Ok, it seems like a lot of you are not here in the present... things like this are happening amongst the youth but that is not the proper way to act in such a situation, we are no less than animals then... My own cousin did a similar deed except that her dad found out through some pictures, and she was given a choice to end the relationship or leave, she chose to leave... and what the hell she's doin now God knows, we don't care... that's a sensible way of going about it... For one to excuse murder as insanity, pluhleez... murder is murder, u have taken the life of another and that is not up to you... There is no excuse in my books for killing anyone whether it be based on broken trust, love or whateva the hell is goin on in ur family.... one should say, the person made a choice good or bad... thats upto God to decide... leave the person alone... and move on with yours... for their more to life then some person leaving... and i know it's hard for the majority out there as the whole thing of "I've raised them their whole lives and this is how they repay me" mentality seeps in...excuse me, but for such an action to occur there has to be a problem within the family, with communication (whether it be with her friends, or the parents not spending time with her or what..)... hey... I was asked out by a gora, but I discussed it with my parents and let them know what was going on and then told the guy to buzz off... there's an open line of communication here... we actually make the effort to talk and solve problems rather than hide them.... It seems to me that since I posted a certain thread that ppl look for opportunities to condemn without looking at what i'm trying to say... whatever to u mates... but I'd where's the fun in the boards then if everyone tends to have the same mindset and follows with out questioning our actions... I say chill, take a step back, breath and look at the overall picture....

But neo ji....don't u see i'm not talking about the father... i'm talking about the mentality of the ppl on this board... Jo onay karna see, oh kargeya... kuch ni hosakhna hun... he'll go to jail, family lost their daughter and everything is upside down.... he's lost it all and he prolly knows it and is regretting whatever he did.... But I'm more concerned about the ppl on this board who are Gursikhs and are saying things like I mentioned before.... thas not kewl....

Thas real sad then.... that ppl call themselves Gursikhs and still commit crimes like that... damn.... u know it totally messes up a persons confidance about them when they've been rejected on pure baseless reasons.... and more than that... I neva knew about her caste background until now and to me it made no difference cuz she is such a beautiful person... why don't ppl at least give another person a chance to such what gem they are....

Neo Ji, u've missed my point... I'm upset at the response that was given by Steel Ji... That the father had a rite to it, that he was driven by the daughter and that the reason for that is that the girl is the family izzat... both son and daughter should be considered to be the family izzat and if one makes a mistake and is punished, so should the other sibling... How can ppl go around saying things like sikhism believes men and women are equal and then say that the girl was all wrong and that her father did it in family interest... cuz that's what i'm gettin here... I'm not attacking all, but it what I see... I read and contemplate and so far what i've read is not at all what I would expect from a sikh.... we're jumping back to judging ppl...(and we've had a big enuff discussion on that...)

I've been told that too... that what we share amongst humans is basically an admiration and respect for the other person... But i'm just wondering if anyone read my previous post in this thread... Is it right to let our parents decide for us and live with the 95% chance that the marriage will be one of compromise and no likes matching up... and how come ppl still bring in the caste factor (contrary to what everyone thinks... read about my friend above..)

I can't believe what some of the posts read.... dear Lord... On one hand, everyone keeps preaching about how men and women are equal in sikh society and then other hand they go on saying that the girl's izzat is the family izzat and that whatever she does matterz....Excuse Me!!!!!!! Hello ppl... that's pure hypocrisy... if a guy does something and gets away with it, then why not the girl after all... men and women are equal and should be looked at in the same way.... It's this kind of thinking that I find appalling... I'm very very very disappointed in the response... And even if she was in the wrong, it gives her father no right to go ahead and take her life... if he was upset then he should have just let her go and do what she wanted... Sometimes it is thinking like the ones that I've encountered reading this thread that makes me think that there's no way I'm gonna marry a sikh guy... Who do u think u are? answer that plz... what right is it in our religion for one being to take another ones in anger or revenge... isn't that what everyone's been posting against?????????? Right now i'm just in pure shock how some things could have been said... Hypocrisy, that's all there is here it seems... plz don't go around preaching about sikhism until u get urself pure...

I'm gonna add my two cents here too... So basically what I'm gettin here is that 1) there should be no relationships of this sort before marriage, and 2) that once again... most sikhs don't believe in the caste system... Ok... here's the deal then... does that mean then that one should reside to choice of the match that their parent's make. From majority of the relationships that I've seen that are made by parents, they're not the world's greatest. It is because our parents see one side of the person and we end up seeing another side... although on the surface it looks like these marriages work, but once one gets inside and understands both ppl, you realize there's a huge difference... I know personally where a person was shown three ppl beforehand and out of them one was chosen for this lady... the person she got was first of all much older to her and second of all had no interest in doing things with her, they're doing ok, but that's because they've learned to compromise and not expect much from each other... however she still sees these other two guys from time to time and they're interests match hers ten times better... and it's sad to see this person struggling the way she is and trying not to regret the decision that her parents made for her... I believe that one should be able to be on the look out for someone that interests them, that they have a connection with otherwise, if you don't have any thing in common with the person how can u even learn to love them, it becomes a burden than anything else... and about sikhs not believing in the caste system... then how come my friend was said no to by every single family that she came across... she's a dentist, gorgeous and is the most sweetest person...and she comes from an amritdhari family that doesn't believe in the caste system... but whenever she was introduced to a jatt/tarkan/whoever else... they all said no upon finding out later through friends that her parents come from chamars and these were all amritdhari families they were looking at....... excuse me this happens every day... in frustration she looked to the first person that showed her that she was more than what others thought of her and she married a polish guy, real sweet and he's such a nice person... but this was the last resort for her... cuz no one else wanted to marry her... Explain to me how that happened, cuz believe me when I heard what had happened to her, it broke my heart on how superficial sikhs have become....

Ok.... I mainly agree with u except on one point... It takes two hands to clap, doesn't it... for such an action to occur it is just as much the guys fault as it is the girl... however the "punjabi" attitude is as such that the daag only comes on the girl, the guy gets away scot free... (whether he be sikh or muslim or whatever....) point is the girl ends up living with it.... I don't believe thats fair as in sikhi men and women are equal... no matter what the person has done, we shouldn't label them rite away... esp gals and if one is going to label someone then plz label the guy as well...

I try really hard to make sure that it comes out as being MY view.... i try to include me, my and i... but we've gotten very used to skimming over ppl's posts that those words don't tend to stick out... The whole reason i came to this site is to learn what sikhi has to offer me... but I'm not sure anymore... there was a point two weeks ago where I was arguing with my own dad about this stuff... but this week I've been feeling that perhaps he's rite... there can't be religion in this world... only spirituality is pure, any time one tries to standardise morals and beliefs into a system called religion, ppl manipulate and misintepret for their own good... for their own power... and this is my view, just to make sure...

Hmmmm.... ok.... I know everyone won't agree with me, because it's kinda tooo ideal in real life I guess.... I've said and done things that I've apologised for and even now if i've offended anyone I'm sorry.... To discuss the different aspects that have come up i'm going to break them down... the comparison that I started out with: The reason I chose to bring that comparison up is that I feel with the way I have read and seen different answers to posts and everything, that is the direction sikhism may be heading... restrictions are popping everywhere on how to speak, how to dress and such... i'm not saying that it's not a good thing, but there has to be reason, one cannot just say absolutes, because in this world there is no absolute other than God Himself... The taliban regime started in the mid-90's where extreme views of islam were warped to create an ideal islamic state... women under this regime were not allowed to wear any revealing clothes of any sort and if she showed by any chance even a shred of skin, she could be beaten, there weren't allowed to wear make up or dress up, had to be accompanied by male relatives all the time... These restrictions came about as a warped view of the koran, what I see is that absolutes of dressing and appearance is leading sikhism away from the actual sikhi... we are more concerned about our appearance in the world rather than what our actions and thoughts should be... I have seen my own cousins who r amritdhari eat meat chori chuppe in their house... So to me that is bein an amritdhari in that situation is only dekhava for the world... there is not love for God... Hence I believe my comparison is legit as it drives it home that such restrictions will lead no where but to downfall... As i've stated before thank God we haven't got our own country yet, otherwise who knows how it would be run with such katard-ness... MY view of an amritdhari.... This is what I have seen, I don't know you all out there in the Uk or wherever else u may be, but this is what I have seen from My own experience... u may have fun and all, that good, please share it with me, because i have no other views regarding this other than what was presented to me... And there everyone goes again in pushing me away, rather than trying to educate me and showing me other possibilities, you all shoot me down saying that what I'm saying and doing is wrong... I'm only a learner trying to debate and discuss what I see is going on around me, i'm trying to grasp this world which I see full of hypocrisy... I want our religion to be more open and understanding, but I'm beginning to see that it's not possible.... That no one wants to learn, everyone just blindly follows... I'm sorry for creating such a havoc (as it seems...) and there's no point in posting on this website if one cannot do what I have tried too...

I think we have to be more excepting of the sikhs that we have today... whether they be keshdharis or non-keshdhari... because to solve a problem one must get to the root of it... To me the problem is that I see the amritdharis as being very unaccepting of others... everything must be one way... therefore ppl like myself are not appealed by that lifestyle where one must give up living life. My view of an amritdhari person is one who basically becomes an ascetic within this world, all I have ever seen them do is kirtan, simrin, paath... thas it... and I'm not saying it's bad, by all means no.... mate thats what we should all be doing, but within reason... with a balance... we cannot jus become monks, because thats exactly what Guru Nanak Dev Ji said... we have to still make the most of the life that we're given, to be and experience it.... and to remember Him throughout it all... That's one thing... also the whole idea of makeup or not, I think it should be left up to the individual to decide, but as group we should not be outright condemning it... perhaps if one accepts another that does wear make up over time that person will not want to wear it out of their own accord, but thas up to you all... I feel that to me living the life I have right now is a lot better then what i've seen as amritdhari... because i believe that I have striked a balance between the material life and the spiritual (by no means am I perfect, there are areas where I need to work on, but believe me I'm much much different from what I was three yrs back....)... But I thank God for the life that he has given me and hope that I become a good enuff person that he'll accept me when my time comes... but I have fun too... I go to wedding parties, dinner parties... I walk through this world and live it... rather than turn my head away from it and think that that's not what my Guru ji's would me to be doing... because that's part of living a Ghrasti life... to be interacting and socializing... and if we become more accepting of ppl... pretty soon the msg of God will spread... but everyone has to make that one step of saying to themselves "That whatever that person may be doing is not my problem... that person is God to, just like all of His creation... " and to just love the person... and not try to change them... change has to come from within the individual... I hope I make sense... if not sorry....

My bad, I'm doing what I said not to do, whoops... But I just don't get it... Mate, let's be honest here.... One wants to have an attractive wife don't they, that knows the balance between everyday life and sikhism... I just don't like the hypocrisy when one says that they like simple gursikh girls, but when it comes to marriage they want to have the skinniest, big eyed beauty around.... face it everyone wants an attractive spouse.... Then why are we going around saying that simplicity is beautiful, the way you are is beautiful... it's not tru, we are constantly trying to appear better in front of ppl whether it be by change of clothes, keeping your dastaar neat, by dieting (which is really really really) bad and by wearing make up... We should face it... and discuss it as a group... not jus pass rules and regulations... times are changing and if one wants to see sikhism stand as a religion in the future, we have to change as ppl with it... it means that we have to bring the SGGS into the 21st century...

Back in the day, it was healthy for animals to live in the wild... However u have to look that most of the dogs and cats and rabbits are being bred for the specific reason of keeping them at home... they wouldn't survive out in the wild now.... I don't think that keeping a pet is a bad thing, but one must treat the animal with the most respect... You are going to look after their mind, body and soul... it's like another human... Personally Dogs r the best, they give unconditional love and don't ask much from u. Cats on the other hand, if not served right will curse u... But the big thing here is to respect the animals...

I'm gettin the feeling not many ppl like what I have to say here.... Thas alrite, i'm used to it... The reason I started this discussion up is to show ppl how restricted we are becoming. I'm gonna bluntly say it out... The majority of the people here have been basically condemning wearing make up and showing some skin... and I know that the retaliation is going to be it's irrelevant or thats not exactly what I meant... but hello read ur posts My point is to say to you all, Stop It... stop condemning these actions, it's not your rite... If ppl r screwing themselves over what's it to u, God will judge them at the end of the day, why r u wasting your time saying negative stuff... You're open to your opinion yes, but to a certain extent, if u state ur opinion once thats fine, but don't keep leaving posts saying that those ppl rn't into sikhi or that their going to fall into kaam or whatever else.... God only knows what's in store for everyone... and wasn't it Neo Ji who said that you don't decided when to take amrit, but He decides it for you... So then what's the problem, perhaps they have to go through some more deeds before getting the chance to become amritdhari... Chill everyone, jus chill... I"m just an observer here, and the way I see sikhism going, there's a good chance that it could become like the taliban regime... and I don't want that to happen, cuz I've said it before, sikhism is a beautiful religion we have to maintain it's beauty... otherwise who knows what will happen....

Sukh Singh ji, I don't get what u mean... no one has slandered any jatha or anyone for that matter... we're trying to keep it general as possible (except for one person...)

Hmmmm.... Alrite... Sikhism is indeed a beautiful religion, it's one filled with love of God.... Thing is the way I see ppl discuss certain issues here, it makes me wonder... Everything that the taliban had done was done in the name of religion... whateveryone is talking about here is in the name of religion... One may not see the similiarities because one is sooo involved with their ideologies... but I see it... it's a restriction on women (as well as men)... One is being conformed into this ideal being for God... I don't believe God would want u to lead a life of pure acetism... I don't get it, is one not supposed to enjoy this life that we have been so graciously given... I'm not saying go waste it wit some cheap drunkards or mess around wit it... But within reason, one should be able to do as they feel...whether it be wearing make up, showing a bit of tummy, or dancing the nite away... I'm beginning to think that perhaps it ppl out there that r having the bad thoughts rather than the person doing all that.... if one keeps bringin it up, then obviously that person has partaken to it... and they should work on themselves... I haven't had such thoughts as everyone has said while doing all that has been critisized... and no did i ever look at all of these things as being negative until i read some posts here and i still don't seem them as negative...

It's not about the exposing skin or make up thing... It's about forcing one's opinion on another... So far everything that I have read is about how other chicks r mashed up because they a) wear make up and don't have any self esteem or b)they expose their tummy...dear Lord!!! A sari exposes one's stomach, does that mean I'm not allowed to wear a sari now??? Anyways, my main thing is, if onedon't like it, don't do it, but that doesn't mean one has to go around saying that it's not sikhi to do it... None of us know what God is going to judge us upon... we have guidelines to follow, yes, but it doesn't restrict us from enjoying our life, u have a chance to make the most of it ... one can attain a meeting wit God even if they're a prostitute as our Bani has said, who r we to judge then... All we can do is be the best sikhs (whatever that may mean to u) and move on with our own lives... I've got enough confidence to speak infront of hundreds of ppl on various occasions... I don't wear make up to school or to work... However when I dress up for a wedding or reception, yes I wear make up to enhance the outfit that I'm wearing... the whole package, just for myself... so that I know that I'm cooridinated.... it doesn't always have to be about confidence, sometimes it's just for ur own self... one doesn't have to sing kirtan, but we do cuz it makes us feel betta, it gives us a little extra zing compared to the Bani by itself...

Ok... I'm very open minded so I want ur opinions, I want this to be a good discussion alrite ppl, and don't worry about ticking me off... I'm kewl with all, so chill and relax (I'm a debater so it's in me to refute refute refute....lol...) Reading a couple of posts this past week has made me feel that sikhism is going to become another taliban regime, Examples: Women should not expose skin at all for if she does, she's goin to make some guy look at her and make him want to have sex with her.... (what a shame!!!) She should not wear make up as it goes again to the first point that she's making herself look prettier and some guy is gonna want to wack her up. There isn't a need to wear make up, God's made u beautiful as u are....(the excuse) There should be no dancing as when one dances lustful thoughts float in that persons mind as well as the ppl around them... Also no listening to other kinds of music because it reduces everyone to lustful beasts, only religious music.... Wow... thank God we at least don't have a single country that can be taken over....

No problem....chill girl, it's alrite... I've come off pretty harsh myself, and that's just cuz we both believe in our views which is good... I'm not condemning ur view or anyone else's I just believe that ppl should stop judging others based on what is their view of right ..... There are those that can dance for the pure joy of dancing.... Meer Bhai was like that, she danced and sang for her Lord, there was no lust in it.... My mom dances cuz she feels the same way, whenever she dances her heart out, it's like shes dancing for God and he's sooo happy to see her like that... (mate I ain't makin it up, my mom's a very blessed person)... I don't know how the Uk is or how other families r, but my family at receptions we all dance together, brothers, sisters, cuzins and everyone, to have fun, it's not like we get together everyday, we can't cuz we live in diff cities... From my experience I haven't seen things like this, but thas prolly cuz I don't want to ever put myself in such a position, it's stupid to be dancing like that... Dancing is another form of art, and art is always encouraged as a form of expression and way of meeting God, but it all depends on ur train of thought as well... and if one neva has a "bad thought while dancing" thas kewl, they should keep on dancing, but if someone has, they need to train their mind until they can control their thoughts...

hmmmmm.... ok, makes sense, thank u

What does the research mean then, what conclusions has Giani Gian Singh come to???

But did HE write it....or tell someone to write it.... is there a means of knowing what exactly he had said at that time.... Also did He write the rehat marayada????

In the sense that it says raj karega khalsa, akhi rahe na koe... Also where did Guru Gobind Singh Ji give the Gur Gaddhi to the SGGS, is it written down somewhere?