Narsingha

Please visit the following: http://www.sarbloh.info/htmls/durbar_adi2.html There are 2 photographs taken of a Swaroop of Adi Guru Durbar that dates to Samat 1832 (AD 1775 - around 60 years after Akali Nihang Guru Gobind Singh Ji ascended to Sach Khand) that shows both the Japji Sahib (top pic) and Raagmala (bottom pic). Please right-click on the 2nd picture, and select "Zoom In" from the pop-up menu and scroll to the date on the right-hand page to confirm this date. This simply ONE Swaroop amongst MANY Puratan Birs that have the Raagmala within it (contrary to the claims of the AKJ "Literature"). Could the AKJ please explain the existance of the Raagmala within this Purataan Bir for starters. :roll:

Baba Gurbachan Singh Bhindrawaley spear-headed the movement to destroy those who oppose the Raagmala. He, being a Nihang Singh of the Budha Dal, had the full backing of the Sanatan Sikh world with regards to this issue. ...once his work is revealed to the Sikh world on www.sarbloh.info, with regards to the Raagmala being authentic, all doubts will be removed. :twisted:

Baba Gurbachan Singh Bhindrawaley produced a vast and detailed work that destroys the notion that "Raagmala is not Gurbaani". This work was produced by Baba Gurbachan Singh ji to vanquish the lies and untruths started by the likes of Teja Singh Bhasauria and his followers. The entire text is being translated into English and will be available on www.sarbloh.info in the near future, along with a vast section on Gurmat Sangeet. Would the AKJ or for that matter other Sikhs question the work of Baba Gurbachan Singh Bhindrawaley (who incidentally was a Nihang Singh of the Akali Nihang Singh Khalsa 96 Crore Budha Dal Chalda Vaheer)? :wink: Incidentally, this work is not to "attack the AKJ" (as people may have you belive). It is to bring the truth into the light. Whether the truth is appealing or not depends what camp you're in...that of the truth...or untruth tick tock tick tock....time bomb is ticking away.

J.Singh, I am sure u may be correct, but cud u pls give me a historical reference with regards to what you stated? Thanks

Bikramjit, considering the scope of Sanatan Sikhi, it would be impossible to put the entire Sanatan Sikh ideology on a website. Besides, Sanatan Sikhi is more than a website...and is practiced to be understood. The aim of the websites is to reveal what there is within Sanatan Sikhi and promote thinkers who will go and persue knowledge rather than get all their answers on a website. "You've made a lot of claims about Sikh scholars telling lies but there's nothing backing it up..just your views. Read Truth Singh's main post.. it's all about references and not opinions " -Bikramjit Well, Bikramjit, unlike yourself, I can read...and my statement was not made without due consideration. If you visit www.shastarvidiya.org and point your browser to the section on Chatka, we have already given one example of the above with regards to Bhai Randhir Singh and his incorrect claims about the term "Chatka". Please dont expect me to re-write the websites here for your benefit. There are more examples to follow with regards to the accusations against modern Sikh scholars/historians (trust me on this), and not just from the Nihang angle either (+ references).

If there are any individuals who consider themselves experts on Dam Dami Taksal history, could they please answer the following question. I need some help: The "Dam Dami Taksal" (based at Chowk Mehta) also known as "Bhindrawaley Taksal" does not seem to appear referenced anywhere in any historical texts such as Parchian Sevadas, Gurblias Dasmi, Gurpratap Suraj Granth, Prem Sumarg, Prachin Panth Prakash, Naveen Panth Prakash, Guru Sobha, Mahima Prakash, etc. None of the Rehitnaamas (see Pyara Singh Padam's book) mention it either. Perhaps I may have overlooked a text that does mention them? This Taksal is not in the Mahan Kosh either, nor within the late Pyara Singh Padam's comprehensive and detailed text on Puratan Sampardahs. The first mention of this institution appears in a publication by Kartar Singh Bhinderawaley "Damdami Taksal Ithehas Sankhep" in the mid-late 1900s. Incidentally, this is also the FIRST text I have come across that traces the Dam Dami taksal's history to Akali Nihang Baba Deep Singh ji Shaheed, who incidentally was based at Batinda, not Amritsar (correct me if I'm wrong) If this institution at Chowk Mehta is so great within Sikhi as the Dam Dami Taksal followers claim, why is there NO mention of it until Kartar Singh Bhindrawaley's publication in the mid-late 1900's? ..or maybe you can point me to a publication that references them written before Kartar Singh Bhindrawlay's work. Thanks in advance...

Bikramjit, assume what you wish. It doesnt really matter who's behind the websites does it? It is the information there that is the subject of this thread, not the webmaster (please read the opening posts of this thread). You may be comforted to know that the webmaster is neither Hindu or Muslim, but an apnah banda.. sukhasingh, as will, and is being made evident on the websites is that modern sikh scholars who are biased towards mainstream Sikhism have castrated Sikh historical texts of the past to appeal to modern Sikh dogma. Some scholars/historians (who we wont mention here as yet) have even propagated pure lies, simply to negate any aspect that does not fit into the picture of what mainstream Sikhs consider to be "sikhi". By translating and highlighting the original Sikh historical texts such as Prachin Panth Prakhash, Gur Pratap Suraj Granth, Gurblias Shemi, Gurbilas Dasmi, Parchian Sevadas etc. in their entirity, we will cause headaches for mainstream Sikhs. The aim of the websites is to reveal the damage that has occured to Sikhi over the past 300 years, and how Sikh historical texts, etc, have been misinterpreted, twisted, and even re-written to remove aspects of Sikhi that once existed. In doing so, its inevitable we will make enemies, but that is the product of revealing the truth. We want a thinking Panth, not a Panth of sheep....

Bikramjit Singh, Nihang Niddar Singh Ji and myself are currently in a process of writing a lekh that will explain the usage of terms such as "Akali" to refer to the gurus and their wider connotations (+ the usual scriptual/historical quotes and references). So, pls be patient. N30... "What about Nirmallas??? " The Nirmala section will be updated soon, so, your answer will be there. However, for the moment, I can say that the Nirmala Panchayat does have a system of initiation similar to that of the Khalsa (but this too has gone under change over time). "Would Damdami Takshal, Rara Sahib takshal started by guroo sahiban himself fall under this umbrella???" www.sarbloh.info will be updated soon to reveal the histories of a huge variety of Sikh samparday that have existed in the past, and also exist in the present. They will cover the history of "Damdami Taksal" and "Rara Sahib" too. Incidentally, if you visit: http://www.sikhcybermuseum.org/People/SundarSinghSant.htm you may note that the teachers of Sundar Singh Bhindrawaley, the FOUNDER of DamDami Taksal were "two Udasi scholars, Pandit Javala Das and Pandit Bhagat Ram". He also "learnt Sanskrit from a Brahman at Dharmkot". We will be expanding on this on www.sarbloh.info. "Would Kar-Seva sector would fall under seeva-panthis?? " Traditionally, the Seva Panthis/Addan Shahis assisted with matters of Seva, but, so too did the Udhasi Sampardah to a large extent (esp when Nihang Khalsa was under threat from enemy forces). "Also is amrit-pan is needed for nirmallas and seva-panthis????? " Today, some Nirmala-based institutions and some Seva Panthis/Addhan Shahis have adopted Amrit as a form of initiation. Possibly to appeal to mainstream Sikhs. However, traditionally this was not always the case. These are largely pacifist orders. If you visit the section on Seva Panthis, you will see that the 5 ks, etc, was not a large stipultion amongst these groups in the past. Indeed the paintings of Bhai Jagta Ji, etc show their dress to be largely non-Khalsa. Today, many groups within the Nirmalas and Seva Panthis have been influenced by SGPC-fied Sikhism, so elements have creapt in which did not exist before. perhaps others can add to this

With regards to the Baba Sri Chand Ji Maharaj and Udhasis, there is a website coming soon that will reveal more of their world. :wink: (so be patient...and yes, ur question will be addressed there in a great deal of depth..by Udhasis themselves) In addition, Mahant Gobind Das's information is based upon his extensive study of Udhasi texts of Baba Sri Chand's life and Udhasi traditions. In addition, he is a respected individual amongst the Udhasis themselves in Hardwar, and represents the Udhasi Sampardhah at many levels within India. As such his opinion is credible. Also, the section on Udhasis is designed to give THEIR point of view, whether one agrees with it or not is an individual's choice. You stated: "Baba Sri Chand advocated a life of a recluse. This is in contradiction with the Sikh philosophy and world view. One can and should follow Baba Sri Chand's example of sewa/service but not his path of asceticism. Baba Sri Chand was shown respect for who he was. He was not passed the Guruship because his life style was not that of a Sikh - as desired by the Gurus." Could you please reference your source for this information. We have referenced all our sources fully on the websites, we ask everyone else to do the same.

:roll: Actually, Mr. Steel Bangle and Khalsa Soulja, before (once again) trying to slander Nihangs, make excuses for your own laziness and crying like a bunch of kids, you should be aware that Sarbloh Guru Durbar Steek (punjabi) has been available from any good Punjabi book store for quite a few years now. Incidentally, it may be worth noting that the ONLY reason Sarbloh Guru Durbar has been made available openly is because of 96 Crori Jatherdar Akali Nihang Baba Santa Singh Ji's permission to allow it to be printed. Before this, Sarbloh Guru Durbar was NOT given to ANYONE without the consent of the Jathedar of the Akali Nihang Singh Khalsa. So, you have him to thank for it. If you wish to buy a copy try: www.dtfasianbooks.com www.csjs.com :!: More info on Sarbloh Guru Durbar: http://www.sarbloh.info/htmls/sarbloh_adi.html

"For wearing a chola b/c my history isnt of a nihang. Should we be wearing cholays if we are not nihangs?" - truesingh We are working on a section to explain the Nihang baana, so be patient. "The gatka i wanted to learn. Are we allowed to learn it if were not nihangs?" - truesingh Have a look at the shastar Vidiya website for the answer, its there. "Even the amrit we take is now invalid. " - truesingh Well. if the Amrit Sanchaar was kept as it was in the past as it is today within the Nihang Dals, then this wouldnt be an issue. "On the there websites they criticise everything that SIkhi is today that im wondering if i am a sikh." -truesingh I think you over exaggerate this point. We are not "critising" but revealing the truth (via quotes/historical references etc.). If people become victims of this truth, then that is inevitable. "nihangs drank cannabis...and plus..dere scaaary" - darshan kaur The cannabis issue will be dealt in greater depth soon. And Nihangs are designed to be intimidating.

"Come on I respect your knowledge even if it is sometimes used to bolster 'sanatan' sikhi but telling a falsehood like there's a Dasam Granth from 1698 is something I wouldn't have thought you were capable of" - Bikramjit I guess you missed this bit Mr Bikramjit: "Oldest bir of dasam guru granth sahib is in Patna Sahib it dates from 1698 and has the signature of sri guru gobind singh ji maharaj." - lalleshvari "Now Narsingha that's a different matter " -Bikramjit Bikramjit, try not to lower the tone of every thread you post on by making personal attacks on people. :roll: If the moderators wish to persue a discussion on topics that involve Sanatan Sikhi, I suggest that they inform the likes of Bikramjit to at least behave like they are not on the streets of Southall. -- ---------- moderator note: please talk with members of this site in the same manner that you wish to be spoken to, if you have no respect for anyone you will not gain respect back either, then you wonder why people direct 'personal attacks' towards you

"This thread is to refute Sanatan websites instead of slandering them." - truthsingh Please Note....refute the WEBSITES...not the webmaster :roll:

Once again, you guys just lower the tone of your debate skills. No evidence, no proof to dispute the content of the websites...simply hollow opinions, insults and in Bikramjit's case, Southall rude boy antics put towards the webmaster. You do modern Sikhs proud dear fellows. I wonder how many Sikh youth will be proud to see "mature" Sikhs such as yourselves acting like such children on a WEBSITE of all places? ...you guys just proved my point (once again).

Edited** Narsingha, No personal comments. Feel free to add which is useful for thread not your personal comments. Thanks!

:roll: ouch ouch!

(stick to the topic...eyebrows)

NarSingh Maharaj saw Akaal in all, but he also destroyed his enemies (who also had Akaal in them) for they went against Dharam. Mr Gabroo, cannabis and mahaprasad (meat) is not banned within the Budha Dal (www.sarbloh.info and www.shastarvidiya.org has provided ample quotes from scripture, oral tradition and historical texts (Sikh and non-Sikh) to prove this to be the case). On the contrary they are an essential part of Kyshatria (warrior) tradition. "for everys information, sukha, phung and ne intoxicant is banned in aal reall akali nihung clans (not sects) inclujding dhun bhudda daaal" - Gabroo Please provide any evidence for your extraordinary claims (aside from opinion). Regarding the RSS, it is clear you have not done your research. Lets look at some examples to highlight this. In the fact that the RSS are anti-Muslim (this is the entire reason WHY the RSS was started) and have a political agenda to remove Muslims from India. Their base is Maharashtra (where Sikhs are in an extreme minority). If we were RSS as you and others of your thinking consider us to be, then dear boy: a) why would we have sections on Kabir and Sheikh Farid on www.sarbloh.info? why would we even acknowledge the great Sufi saints? c) why would we go out of our way to state so many times that the Gurus had Muslim aquintances? d) why would we even highlight the fact the Islam is also another path to God along with Sikhi? e) why do we have pictures of HINDU fanatics destroying a Mosque on www.sarbloh.info? f) why are we persuing racial harmony, multicultural society and respecting the faith of others, instead of telling everyone to convert to becoming Sikhs or Hindu? g) why do we have pictures of the Kabba, Muslim saints, Muslim devotees such as Mirza (see Charitropakhyaan sections) h) almost ALL the paintings of the Gurus on www.sarbloh.info are done in PERSIAN (moghal) style...not "sikh" or even "hindu" ...what else has your research shown? :roll:

Just a point to note: http://www.sarbloh.info/htmls/information_...ledgements.html http://www.shastarvidiya.org/htmls/information.html As you can see, www.sarbloh.info and www.shastarvidiya.org (not to mention www.sanjamkiriya.org and www.nihang.com) have been sanctioned by: 1) 96 Crori Jathedar Akali Nihang Baba Santa Singh Ji (Supreme Commander of the Budha Dal) 2) Baba Uday Singh Nihang (General Secretary of the Budha Dal) 3) Nihang Niddar Singh (Jathedar of Budha Dal UK). ..to name but a few prominant people within the Budha Dal (incidentally, www.budhadal.com will be getting updated in the near future)

Note...Udhasi section on www.sarbloh.info will be updated soon to include more on the ideology and maryada of the Udhasi Sampardah (with lots of new pics)

Sanatan Sikhs - Udhasis, Nirmalas, Seva Panthis, and Akali Nihang Singh Khalsa do not recognise the authority of the SGPC... We prefer to acknowledge the authority of the Gurus rather than some institution set up by the British Raj such as the SGPC and successive personality cults Sanatan Sikhs do not dispite the authenticity of Adi Guru Durbar, Dasam Guru Durbar, or Sarbloh Guru Durbar, and therefore there is no question that Treh Charritar/Charitropakyaan are the works of Dasam Patshah Akali Nihang Guru Gobind Singh ji. (besides the Chaupee Sahib that everyone reads is the conclusion to the Treh Charittar, so ask yourself why you read that if you doubt the authenticity of Treh Charritar as the SGPC do)

Entertaining though this is the challenges where requested to take place within the Akhara. Sadly people seem to assume that a challenge is always physical. I guess this is tha macho nature of people such as Bikramjit who think their manhood is under threat each time things do not go his way. Challenges are issued to better the Panth (eg. Hadh Torh challenge), not for personal gain (as Mr Bikramjit is doing). Mr "God-complex" Bikramjit, as one enters the Akhara they abide by the rules of the Akhara and the tradition of the Khalsa. It is not my fault that you find it frightening to be surrounded by Nihang Singhs when you enter the Akhara and feel insecure. The reason for requesting any challenge to be within the Akhara is because this is the traditional arena where Sikh/Khalsa disputes are settled. I suggest you guys start to aquaint yourselves with Khalsa traditions and see the distinctions between the motive for challenges and the TYPES of challenges, and start to learn not to make things personal. Fighting in some "private place" to settle matters physically such as Bikramjit requested is technically a duel, has NO place in Maryada (as Bikramjit made this personal). Bikramjit is seeking to make this issue personal by sending me threats, rude private messages and starting this personal grudge match because he doesnt have the intellect to dispute what is on the websites (and is still trying his Southall Rude Boy tactics to get me to fight with him against Khalsa Maryada). Its clear Bikramjit has NO regard for the law (as lalleshvari has pointed out) and wants me to break the law. Who is the real danger to Sikhi? The websites such as www.sarbloh.info and www.shastarvidiya.org? Or rude-boys such as Bikramjit who are willing to break the law at any given opportunity just because they dont agree with someone on the INTERNET of all places? I wonder what he does when he doesnt agree with someone off the internet? Maybe this explains his lack of friends and why he takes the internet so seriously..who knows... At least try and stick to the matter at hand...the websites (not the webmaster). lets look at a couple of scenarios.... My name could be Mr Cuckoo Singh....or Mr Patel...Mr Pumpkin Man, etc....it doesnt change the fact that you guys have still not been able to dispute the websites on an intellectual level. I could be a 15 year old child going around on the internet issuing challenges left right and centre just to wind people up and claiming the websites to be my work....does it change the fact that you still cannot argue with the websites? Would you have instead picked a fight with the 15 year old and asked for a duel in some "private place" just because your wisdom lacks the capacity to digest what the websites represent? ...your frustration is more evident with each passing day dear friends...and you are just becoming the laughing stock of this discussion forum (and others) for making things so personal, lowering the level of discussion away from maryada (and inherently pushing me to do the same). Grow up buddies...and besides, regardless of the 5-6 people against the websites (and one Bikramjit trying to make it a personal issue with the webmaster), these websites will grow, the knowledge will flood out at a greater rate..... The Akharas are all growing and people are learning Savya Rakhsah....Shastar Vidiya, and many other forms of Vidiya that are Sanatan by nature. Sorry to break this to you, but it is your loss... Goodluck with your ventures (...i will try my best not to entertain you guys any further but this last post was to clear the matter from my end) (never knew how serious some people take discussion forums...) I request that the moderators either lock this thread as it is clear it is just entertaining the personal vendettas of people such as Bikramjit and his associates. Should they wish to dispute what is on the websites, then another thread should be started that is more civilised and devoid of personal attacks.

The problem lies in the fact that some individuals wish to paint everyone with the same brush, and are looking to create some "Brave New World" where everyone looks and acts the same. They refuse to accept everyones perception of Sikhi, Dharam, beauty, logic etc etc is different. It scares them perhaps to know that they may have to use their own brain and actually stand up for their own beliefs as individuals. Inevitably, this will give rise to conflict. ** edited ** ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ moderator note: let's stick to topic here. We have mainstream sikhs thread already going where comparision and opinions are welcome.

Sukhbir, You also share the commonality that you both take the internet very seriously (contrary to your claims that you do not have time to visit the Akharas). With regards to Mr Bikramjit... He has now proved conclusively, that he is simply Mr "Southall Rude-Boy" who has no regard for the law, or Khalsa maryada. A loose cannon, with no morality, nor chivalry, let alone any having any control over his emotions. He is seeking physical retribution for being made a fool on the internet where he considers himself to be some kind of monarch with his God-complex from being a minor moderator on the Sikh History website. I think I have entertained you both long enough, and it has certainly been an experience engaging with such fanatic and macho men such as you and Bikramjit. Who knows, I may give into my occasional boredom and push a few more buttons to see your reaction. Bikramjit for one has proved he is easily annoyed with my presence, and tries every trick in his "Dummies Guide to being Chust and Chalaak" to "expose" the anti-Sikh websites. Failing that he attacks the webmaster. I suggests he changes his manual to one that actually works, perhaps one carrying the SGPC stamp? Good luck on your quest, and your attempts at making people aware of what you consider to be anti-Sikh activity. I am sure you will be keeping an eye on the forthcoming updates on www.sarbloh.info and www.shastarvidiya.org. Godbless

Have love for Dharam, Truth and Akal Purakh, and you're less likely to go wrong. An added benefit is that this will lead to a reduction in the amount of hugging that occurs these days amongst Sikhs (...hugging..yuck!!!!!) Sikhi is between you and Akaal Purakh, and no one has the right to interfer with this relationship. Akaal Purakh does not judge us until we are dead, so what right do we have to judge others while we are alive? (NB: We are all allowed to have opinions and express them, but not enforce them on others. The strength of an opinion depends on the knowledge, wisdom, truth and logic behind it) *goes back to planning tonight's dinner*