sidak

Narsingha, As Inderjit Singh has already pointed out - Baba Thakur Singh was in Southall only a few weeks ago. There would be no one more appropriate to pose your questions to than the current Jathedar of the Taksal himself, or the Singhs accompanying him. You're not that far from Southall, so distance can't have been a factor. Its strange that you passed up on the opportunity to have all your questions answered face to face by Baba Thakur Singh, yet continue to rant on this site about no one replying to your questions ...

He might be labelled a "Sikh" in the sense that he was born into a Sikh family, but he certainly does not identify with Sikhi in particular, or define himself as a Sikh. Anyway, that's merely a minor detail, the fact that Narsingha challenged him still remains.

Nihal Kaur; From what I can recall, and others can confirm - Narsingha was offered a one-on-one challenge by Bikramjit Singh a few months back, but Narsingha refused because it was apparently against his maryada. Yet strangely, it was the same Narsingha who under the alias "Brown Cookie", offered a challenge to fight the non-Sikh webmaster of another forum www.barficulture.com who happened to not agree with Narsingha's views. Others on this forum may be able to shed more light on other such "challenges" Narsingha has offered/refused over the past few months.

Narsingha, Seems like your grasp of propositional logic is somewhat lacking. It is correct that the Guru Granth Sahib states that gaining political power is not the primary aim of a Sikh - but this in no way contradicts the above couplet which states that in order to propogate and sustain dharam, politicial power is absolutely neccessary. Getting back to my question about the role of the Budha Dal in current day Panjab - are we to believe that the Budha Dal is now a defunct and redundant institution, living on former glories ? Or does it actually serve a useful function for the sikhs living in Panjab in terms of protecting human rights, protecting freedom of speech, and dealing appropriately with those who dishonour the guru granth sahib in public?

Narsingha, Why don't you just answer the question instead of running around in circles. The issue I raised is equally as relavant - specifically, the role of the Budha Dal Nihangs in current day panjab in light of the public dishonouring of the Guru Granth Sahib. If you cant answer it in this thread, then start another one and do so there.

Narsingha, Could you also explain the comment above in light of the following by Guru Gobind Singh, specifcally the nihang concept of "Raj" - does the Budhaa Dal believe that this Raj has been achieved ? "Tabh in bhinoh Gareeb navaj Shashtren keh adeehn heh raj Raj binah neh dharma chaleh heh Dharam binah sabh dhaleh maleh heh"

Narsingha, Talk is cheap - In the Panjab there are a number of individuals such as Piara Bhaniara and Ashootush NoorMehlia who have PUBLICLY burnt copies of the Guru Granth Sahib in a number of villages. Where are the Nihangs to fight this gross display of dishonour to the Guru Granth Sahib ? Or perhaps they don't mind, unless it happens to "Dasam Guru Darbar" or "Sarbloh Guru Darbar" ? It seems as though the Budha Dal in Panjab have exchanged their sarbloh karrey for "kach dian bangaan".

Bikramjit Singh - as I would have said in my younger days, "You Smashed it"

You claimed in an earlier thread that Jeevan Deol did this "blasting" in the brief endnotes of his paper contained in 'sikh religion, culture and ethnicity'. Perhaps for those of us not having access to SOAS library, or the £40 to buy the book, perhaps you could provide the gist of what you percieve Jeevan Deol's argument(s) to be, and how it refutes Daljeet Singh's contentions.

Its so amusing to read the drivel you write lalleshvari, Let's see - the REAL reason you don't like to provide quotes any more is because users of this forum are beginning to research the assertions you make, and have realised your claims to be inconsistent and/or patently incorrent. So instead of providing specific references, you instead choose to refer vaugely to texts that normally contain 100+ pages, making it extremely difficult for individuals to refute your claims in a reasonably short time-period. Your recent statement regarding taksal lineage on the dasam granth thread is an example that comes to mind. Once veer Sukhdev Singh Jhamka had exposed your false assertion and offered to provide explicit audio evidence to support his view, you quickly changed tact. And then there's veer Bikramjit Singh who has exposed your inconsistencies time and time again - but I'm sure others have picked up on these already.

slightly off-topic, but concerning Bhaniareywala - he had a lucky escape a week or two ago, because the naujwan who went to give him his dues was unable to strike a lethal enough blow. no doubt, if niddar and his cheley spent less time issuing challenges to gatka practitioners and practicising chatka on goats, and more time dealing with the true enemies of the panth, bhaniareywala would be long dead by now. but i guess that speaks volumes about their mentality... its strange how nihangs are willing to beat up, or even kill someone who abuses their bana , i.e. nangs, but are mostly silent when someone burns or outright disrespects the guru granth sahib. on a related note, anyone heard a wonderful dhadhi tape called "chak de bhaniareywaley noo" (i.e. "kill bhaniareywala" :twisted: ) ... if anyone wants an mp3 version, pm me, and i'll try and sort it out. GurFateh!

would you care to define in what form this "help" was given, since your sentence is incredibly vague, and even you aren't sure if it's even true (but you still made the assertion anyway :? ) did sri chand merely help in compiling it, or in actually formulating it ? in the case of the latter, would that not contradict the idea that gurbani is a result of direct revelation...

jsingh, it's clear you have no qualms about santa singh having accepted government money, as opposed to the majority of the panth which did (resulting in the symbolic ex-communication of santa singh), hence your inability to understand my 'point'. having courage suggests the ability to do the right thing at the right time - something that santa singh clearly failed to do by accepting the handout.

well, it seems that santa singh had neither the courage, nor the brains, to realise that his reconstruction of the akal takht was conveniently being funded by those who were responsible for its destruction in the first place, in their attempt to get some of the so-called 'moderate' sikhs back on their side. it's a bit like al'qaida offering to rebuild the twin towers ... i'm not talking about taking on the entire army, but those individuals who were responsible for the attack taking place. indira gandhi, general vaidiya, and others who played a part in the attack were all dealt with by individual sikhs - why didn't the nihangs, the defenders of the panth, play their part in delivering justice to those guilty individuals. or perhaps their respect for bibi indira's sarkar was too overwhelming ... ?

since you don't seem to understand - my point is that had santa singh shown any courage, to put it crudely, he would have told bibi indira she could stick the money where the sun don't shine. moreover, for a jathedar of the budha dal nihangs, i would have expected him to atleast bring to justice, in the nihang ways of old, those that carried out the desecration, instead of thanking them. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Moderator note: Please use language which is appropriate as this site is also for non-sikhs as well. We have edited your post to meet our rules.

what's my point ?! santa singh accepted money to rebuild the akaal takhat from those same people who attacked it and were responsible for killing over 3000 innocent people in its surroundings. suppose somebody burnt down your house intentionally, destroying all your cherished possesions, annihilating precious artefacts, killing members of your family, and then offered you an apology and £100,000 to build it up again - would you take the money from them and thank them for their generosity, or would you at the very least demand justice for the horrendous attrocity ?

Rebuilt with money given by the very people who were responsible for it being demolished in the first place ... ? bullets were being fired into harmandar sahib BEFORE the invasion in June '84, and given that given that the attack had been planned months in advance, and merely a matter of time before it was executed, it was only right that the sikhs should fortify the darbar sahib complex to withstand the assault. regarding tactics - i'm sure that general shahbeg singh was more well versed in military tactics and guerilla warfare than santa singh. what would he have done ... rode around on horseback 50 miles outside of amritsar while darbar sahib was being blasted with tank fire? also, it would be helpful if you would reveal which marayada(s) are you referring to lalleshvaari.

GurFateh! Also read 'Early Sikh Scriptural Tradition: Myth and Reality', Balwant Singh Dhillon, Singh Brothers, Amritsar you can read a review of the book here: http://www.sikhnet.com/Sikhnet/discussion....6F?OpenDocument also, a short essay entitled "myth and reality - a peep into the goindwal pothis" is available here : http://www.sikhstudies.org/Periodicals.asp?TtlCod=1169

Mod's Note: Please refrain from slandering each other. This thread is going well. Stick to the topic PLEASE AND NOT TO INSULTS

sorry lalleshvari, i would like to think that alleged scholars such as yourself would be comfortable discussing their scholarly credentials in the public domain. why make it private ? i'm sure you have nothing to hide.

1. is bahadar singh nirmalla a male name, or just your 'pen name', or just a fake name ? 2. when you ask me to read the notes section in jeevan deol's essay, and i respond that i will ask him in person - that makes me an "intellectual vampire" ? don't make me laugh, or alteast don't make accusations 3. regarding your scholarship, we await eagerly - are you still finishing off your PhD thesis ? i do hope it's worth the wait :twisted:

haha...i don't think he's a "penji" unless he's now bahadar kaur nirmalla when you going to let us see examples of your work then lalleshvari (bahadar singh) ? does jeevan deol know of you ? perhaps he can shed light on your 'scholarship' ...

er...ok neo, whatever you say. :roll: lalleshvari - i'll ask him what he thinks of daljit singh's views of dasam granth, and then we'll see whether or not he refuted his claims.

neo singh...calm down. if you don't accept the views of those that don't accept the dasam granth in it's entirety, then refute them !

no, i'll go one better - i'll ask jeevan deol myself :wink: