HSD1

Here are some pics:

Right ok, that is interesting. Who were the Sikhs in America by 1780 during the American War of Independence? Or were they Canadians/Mexicans? I'm not sure what a Gurudwara in Iran has to do with Guru Nanak Dev ji's travels three centuries before. Chances are they were in Iran having fled the Punjab due it's troubles with political infighting and occupation by the British in the decade before. Every race can be considered prolific travellers. Why you need to mention it, I dont know. I'm sure Punjabis travelled the world before him. No one is saying that Sikhs left the Punjab for the first time after the British took over either. But understanding that times change and travel varies in different periods cant just be ignored. Nor can we just make up history because it feels 'right'. Sikh communities were under the control of the Brits by the 1850s, surely?

I was joking about the walking slowly bit lol. But there would have been plenty to see in the Middle East for walking travellers, Persia littered their roads with monuments and temples. But why would he visit Rome? How do we know he knew of Christianity or that he was interested in anything it had to say? There were a few Christians in India during his time, nothing like it is now or was in apostle thomas's time. If he did come to Europe he would have known of the New World so why didnt he go and visit Tenochtitlan, a city far larger than any in Europe? Anyway, you do know that the Vatican City didnt exist back then, dont you? The Pope had his own country (the Papal States) and spent plenty of time waging war with other European countries and fighting their Churches for overall control of Christianity in Europe. Paris had become an important centre of Christianity in Europe due to them pulling away from Rome at that time. Should we assume that Guru Nanak Dev Ji went there too? I think it would be wrong to assume or conject he went to places we cant prove. The onus is on researchers to provide a smoking gun. There is nothing so far.

Walked very slowly? Chances are he went to visit the old South Asian cultural centres of Central Asia, we arent from his time so it's hard to know what the world view was like at the time. As for going to Africa, it may have been possible. Some African states in that time period were undergoing their own Renaissance so were open to travellers. On the other hand the Turks were fighting a lot of wars in East and North Africa at the time so that's something we have to consider as well. Back then the Mughal Empire, Afghanistan, Persia and the Ottoman Empire were relatively safe places to travel. 'Hindoos' were present in North America by 1780. But that's still 260 years after Guru Nanak Dev Ji was meant to have visitted these places. Why the desperation to link him to certain parts of the world? I thought the Christians were bad with all their talk of Jesus going around Europe and maybe America on the flimsiest of evidence, but we've decided to do the same. Imagine what Guru Nanak Dev Ji would have to say about that! He'd probably find a good way of showing us how stupid we are. Chances are that he walked most of the way. That's what most people did back then. Also to add to the counter argument, I have to ask why would Guru Nanak have gone to Rome? The Pope was more of a dictator back then and he was at war with other parts of Europe. The Catholic Church in the 1510s signed off on the Christian version of the Dawa. This allowed Christians to kill/rape/loot from any non-Christian if they refused to accept Christ as their Lord. What would Guru Nanak Dev Ji have made of that? Europeans back then loved taking foreigners hostage and demanding ransoms. Europe then isnt like Europe now, and no amount of twisting will make it that way. I'm sorry, but just because some people wish it to be true or because it suits their world view doesnt make it true.

Is the brown guy meant to be Sikh? http://youtu.be/WQREDQjfzC4

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2287930/Royal-Mail-investigation-letter-sent-Asian-nanny-covered-racist-graffiti-resealed-delivered.html

lol, that makes the majority of the victims the same as the perpetrators if they are the majority. All this hate speech just further adds to the divisions and then you wonder why people hurtle back into their little niches. The people in Punjab are as much a part of your shabby community as they are mine. I didnt even blame Hindus or India. It's not like people in the police force or Badal overly display their Jattism at every turn, most of the biggest casteists (of whatever caste) dont have that much going for them. If Badal was such a big jatt why are there so many deras? Use your brain, absolving yourself and blaming other castes is the exact thing you're meant to be against.

More like colonial paramilitary police force long past their expiration date running around like it's the 1920s. Hate to break it to you but there is 'Jatt' on 'Jatt' crime and police persecution.

http://youtu.be/L8AqfSHBfE0

I'm glad you came out with that. I didnt want to be accused of racism or projecting my own views on historical research. But this mix of NATO/Age of Aquarius type rubbish which Sikhs in the diaspora use to garner attention and perceived acceptance in the West is just like a kid playing with fireworks. It looks fun but ends badly. Twisting Sarbat da Bhalla to suit the globalized world we live in comes across as superfluous and paving over the cracks of things that normal people see day to day. Just to add to what I posted on SS, as well as mistranslations of Latin, the researcher has fluffed his dates massively. If Guru Nanak Dev Ji went to Europe in the year mentioned, he would have arrived just as the slave trade was starting. Over the next century the amount of slaves traded would massively increase to over 80% of the global slave trade. The Catholic church turned a blind eye, and any Sikh influence (if it even existed) was negligible. In 1518 the Spanish and Portuguese were the most powerful states in Europe. They were in the process of exterminating local populations in the Caribbean and overrunning the Aztec empire. Slaves werent needed. The researcher also talks about slavery in Jamestown and New England. Unfortunately for him, none of those places existed as England was a bit of a medieval backwater then. It would be another 80 or so years before they would be found and the importation of slaves reached the levels that we are historically familiar with. The researcher also says that Guru Nanak Dev Ji travelled extensively in Western Europe. The idea is laughable. In the 1510/20s the nations of Europe were gripped with fear at the Turkish defeat of the Eastern Roman Empire and the threat to the Christian heartlands of Europe. It was such a big issue that the usually warmongering nations of Europe put down their arms and signed the Treaty of London which forbade Christian countries from attacking one another and prepared them to begin to stop growing Ottoman influence. The thought of a bunch of Asian guys just wondering around Europe is mad. Europe back then was a lot like the Muslim world is now. I wouldnt go on a trek through Pakistan - Afghanistan - Iran - Iraq - Syria - Palestine - Saudi Arabia and back again. Back then it was different. Times change. He also quotes a speech by Henry VIII as being related to New Spain/New England. Whilst the researcher thinks this means the colonies, it actually refers to the change in influence and power of both countries. The researcher's tour guide supposedly said that Guru Nanak Dev ji stayed in a 'Pagan Cemetry'. This is the old roman graveyard that the Christian Romans built over. I doubt our Guru would have slept in a graveyard. Also 'Nanacus' is a word used to describe a bearded man in the middle east. It also is a version of the name we would know as 'Noah'. Nanacus was a central european/asia minor word to describe various people who led their lot to safety like Noah. Not exactly a smoking gun. Then there are the Italians. Why are they supposedly leading him on like this? Have they reallly admitted Guru Nanak Dev Ji visited or are they leading him on? Is it all in his head? We know how the Muslims have twisted our Guru's visit to Mecca as an acceptance of Islam. It took our 'scholars' and 'thinkers' numerous attempts to explain the truth, even though some still like to get lead around the muji merrygoround of half truths and twisted ideas, making the rest of us look stupid for not being able to explain to the sulleh how stupid they are. The xtians are far more organised and clever than a bunch of musi hairy fairies. The last thing we need is for them to claim Sikhi is an offshoot of Christism or that one of our Guru's was a Prester John type. God I hope this isnt the start of some big problem thanks to our own desperation to stay relevant or get accepted in the West. I'm not going to bother going on, the rest of the research and leaps in logic are giving me a headache.

http://satguru.weebly.com/satguru-nanak-sahib-went-to-greece-rome-etc-according-to-forcible-entries-of-roman-empire1609.html http://satguru.weebly.com/ The above links are supposedly from a Sikh researcher who has found evidence that Guru Nanaj Dev Ji went to rome in the early 16th century and helped to abolish slavery. Most of the sources are sketchy or skewed and I want to know if anyone else has heard of this? Is there more concrete proof? Surely if this was true it would be common knowledge wouldnt it? Everyone knows about what happened when Guru Nanak Dev Ji went to Mecca, so why no sources on Rome?

I know what you mean, but even so, when it comes to beating an old man you think something like a conscience would kick in.

How shamesless can thugs be to beat an old man? The asylum is run by the lunatics.

I posted a topic about a book where it discusses how people like him are groomed/farmed to be used in Britain's wars in muslim countries. I dont know why Sikhs are surprised by this though. How have they not been able to see this for so long?

http://youtu.be/heDyWFqTY2s People can say what they want, but this sure as hell beats having to watch Babbu Maan films to see Panjabi being used.

http://youtu.be/eBopP2k5N8U Pritpal Singh continues to inform the diaspora with an update of the condition of Sikhs/South Asians and Gurudwaras in Afghanistan along with their fears for the future.

Sounds good, just add Movie or Film to the name to cover all angles.

Can we?

Of course he does, he's just waiting for Harjap Bhangal to find him a good Jatt boy from the pindh.

http://youtu.be/V8QqcCSUVh0

Well depends on the issue. Gurudwara management? Yes. Grooming? No. I'm not sure why you think every issue should be caste based - either it is or it isnt. If it is and nobody else says it is , then you have to explain your point of view. You cant expect all of us to understand the way you see things are unless you explain it to us. You could say the same about the muslim and xtian masses too. Still doesnt mean they have internal issues with how their religion is practiced or the 'holier than thou' types from religous organisations with chips on their shoulders like JW or the various Islamic versions. I was on about Gursant Singh's issues with Punjabi and White Sikhs. What exactly am I excusing? I made the point that if we cant live by a moral code we cant really expect non-Punjabis to either. It will just descend into fingerpointing. Look at the Welsh and their history over the last 1500 years in relation to the English and you'll get what I mean. We're not the first this has happened to. And read the Heart of Darkness to get some perspective about the dangers of our own using their background to abuse others.

Lol, I'm not blaming anyone one or trying to bring race into it. The thing is that since the end of the Second World War we Sikhs have felt that we are no longer relevant in the modern world as the world power we were 'best chums' with is no longer top dog. In desperation to change this we cant really start copying tactics that we ourselves have issues with. Doing anything to get converts is going to backfire and, if the book is true, has already happened. The account of the 'lost second generation' was just alarming. In our rush for converts we cant just ignore the religous landscapes of the places we come to. It's not a cultural or racial thing, it's a behavioural thing. Like a guy who had a bad childhood who then emulates the things his own parents did to him with his own children. It has nothing to do with race or culture but it is still a self-perpetuating issue and can become a norm over a long enough period. If we convert others, we cant expect them not to tolerate things that they are used to. Like in the West, whether it's a cult or an established religion, they have problems with sexual violence and paedophilia. It's not a surprise when that translates to Sikhi, especially if its not introduced carefully and fully fledged with all kinds of information. Hell, look how hard it is for people like us born into Sikh families to get back into our religion and rediscover our history. If we cant even pass it from generation to generation properly without letting the bs slip in then what hope do we have with outsiders with far more complicated societies? It's not as if they dont have their own idiosyncrasies that can be exploited by savvy Punjabis. I'm sure the last thing we Sikhs would want is 'Kurtz' types running around the world...................or to have Anglo-saxon appropriation narrate our own future. There is a lot to ponder. As for East Punjab, we are sleeping on a barnful of cow dung there. Gursant Singh's experiences validate a lot of Punjabi narratives of how things are screwed up there. I hope you get round to reading it soon.

Have you read the book? They're one and the same now. That's how white sikhs see it anyway now.

Bloody hell, it was everything I expected and more.

Right, to get it you need this programme for your Windows 7 computer (or download the app to a smartphone): http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/feature.html/ref=kcp_pc_ln_ar?docId=1000423913 For other devices: http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/feature.html/ref=amb_link_164007747_3?ie=UTF8&docId=1000425503&pf_rd_m=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&pf_rd_s=center-9&pf_rd_r=1F6C3VCVN7XB06B4DJ2N&pf_rd_t=1401&pf_rd_p=295622067&pf_rd_i=1000423913 You can use your Amazon account ID to log into Kindle. There is a 'demo' version of the book available for download which is 36 pages long. Practically this Kindle gives you a PDF-esque file that can be viewed like a document. The book certainly looks interesting, a bit like a Sikh version of American History X.