BhagatSingh Posted October 12, 2014 Report Share Posted October 12, 2014 So this Diwali there will be no use of electrical lights? Computer is a tool whereas the cake and candles is a ritual. Electrical lights is a tool whereas Diwali is a ritual. Are you getting the hang of it or do we need to go through more examples? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnPathToSikhi Posted October 12, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2014 Asking questions that have obvious answers is sheer stupidity. Having no answers is sheer stupidity. Go figure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyhp32 Posted October 12, 2014 Report Share Posted October 12, 2014 Here's what Guruji says about both Krishn and Ram. ਕਿਤੇ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਸੇ ਕੀਟ ਕੋਟੈ ਬਨਾਏ ॥ ਕਿਤੇ ਰਾਮ ਸੇ ਮੇਟਿ ਡਾਰੇ ਉਪਾਏ ॥ ਜਿਤੇ ਅਉਲੀਆ ਅੰਬੀਆ ਹੋਇ ਬੀਤੇ ॥ ਤਿਤਿਓ ਕਾਲ ਜੀਤਾ ਨ ਤੇ ਕਾਲ ਜੀਤੇ ॥ ਜਿਤੇ ਰਾਮ ਸੇ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਹੁਇ ਬਿਸਨ ਆਏ ॥ ਤਿਤਿਓ ਕਾਲ ਖਾਪਿਓ ਨ ਤੇ ਕਾਲ ਘਾਏ ॥ 28॥ (ਦਸਮ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ - ਅਕਾਲ ਉਸਤਤਿ) and Bhagat Kabir ਕਬੀਰ ਰਾਮੈ ਰਾਮ ਕਹੁ ਕਹਿਬੇ ਮਾਹਿ ਬਿਬੇਕ ॥ ਏਕੁ ਅਨੇਕਹਿ ਮਿਲਿ ਗਇਆ ਏਕ ਸਮਾਨਾ ਏਕ ॥191॥ (ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ, 1375) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amandeep Hindustani Posted October 12, 2014 Report Share Posted October 12, 2014 Having no answers is sheer stupidity. Go figure. Yep, I say the same thing about your silence on other questions. But I will take away two answers, if you like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnPathToSikhi Posted October 12, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2014 Computer is a tool whereas the cake and candles is a ritual. Electrical lights is a tool whereas Diwali is a ritual. Are you getting the hang of it or do we need to go through more examples? I am clear in my understanding. It seems to me that you are trying force in some irrational argument. The "Cakes and Candles" thing is seen as a "western influence". That is what the article is trying to convey. From what I understand the act/"ritual" of wearing a wrist watch is also western: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-s8ArturTnUc/Uln9cuoaXpI/AAAAAAAAA14/dQyf4XpIOMA/s320/Narendra+Modi+Full+Hd+Wallpaper+-+srahir.tumbr.com+%2823%29.jpg Do you need more examples? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amandeep Hindustani Posted October 12, 2014 Report Share Posted October 12, 2014 We celebrate the release of Guru Hargobind and 52 Maharajas which happened on Diwali day. The stupidity of the Hindu is legendary so what's next genius, Sikhs worship Ram because he is mentioned in the Guru Granth Sahib? I suggest you line up the dates first and learn a few things about your own religion in "simpler language" before you make claims. - And as Valmiki says " Ram se bada Ram kaa Naam" - The name of Ram is bigger than Ram himself" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnPathToSikhi Posted October 12, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2014 Yep, I say the same thing about your silence on other questions. But I will take away two answers, if you like. You got bowled over just my first comment and you want go to "other questions"? Defeat is a habit for some. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BhagatSingh Posted October 12, 2014 Report Share Posted October 12, 2014 I am clear in my understanding. It seems to me that you are trying force in some irrational argument. The "Cakes and Candles" thing is seen as a "western influence". That is what the article is trying to convey. From what I understand the act/"ritual" of wearing a wrist watch is also western: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-s8ArturTnUc/Uln9cuoaXpI/AAAAAAAAA14/dQyf4XpIOMA/s320/Narendra+Modi+Full+Hd+Wallpaper+-+srahir.tumbr.com+%2823%29.jpg Do you need more examples? I don't think so. That example is horrible. A watch is a tool. Is the act of wearing a watch a ritual? I don't think so. It's as much as ritual as using a hammer to hammer a nail. Would you be ok if they did arti in gurudwara, placed an idol of the guru and fed it kraha prashad? Is that like wearing a wrist watch? I am guessing not. Having a cake and lightning candles on top, blowing them out, singing "Happy birthday to you" then cutting the cake and feeding it to closest relatives is a ritual. It cannot be compared to a computer or a watch, both of which are tools. And it's not a sikh ritual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnPathToSikhi Posted October 12, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2014 I don't think so. That example is horrible. Maybe for you. That example is a classic. Also, all I asked was do you need more examples? A watch is a tool. What is a Candle? Would you be ok if they did arti in gurudwara, placed an idol of the guru and fed it kraha prashad? Is that like wearing a wrist watch? I am guessing not. You are going totally tangent here. Not sure what are you trying to say? Having a cake and lightning candles on top, blowing them out, singing "Happy birthday to you" then cutting the cake and feeding it to closest relatives is a ritual. It cannot be compared to a computer or a watch, both of which are tools. I think you are just fixated on the physical "tools" and not the usage of them. And it's not a sikh ritual. Yes. But Sikhs do celebrate such birthdays. Anyway, again, I think you are going totally tangent here. Not sure what are you trying to say? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amandeep Hindustani Posted October 12, 2014 Report Share Posted October 12, 2014 You got bowled over just my first comment and you want go to "other questions"? Defeat is a habit for some. Sir, why are you asking me questions if you already know the answer? Am I talking about Tibet? Nepal? Afghanistan? Pakistan? Sri Lanka? Process of elimination based on available evidence is pretty easy. And yes you have made no comment about the news from the States, and what should be done about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BhagatSingh Posted October 12, 2014 Report Share Posted October 12, 2014 Maybe for you. That example is a classic. Also, all I asked was do you need more examples? What is a Candle? You are going totally tangent here. Not sure what are you trying to say? I think you are just fixated on the physical "tools" and not the usage of them. Yes. But Sikhs do celebrate such birthdays. Anyway, again, I think you are going totally tangent here. Not sure what are you trying to say? What you are calling tangents is what this conversation is about. A candle by itself is a tool but you missed the part where the candle is part of a ritual. Barta is talking about a ritual not a candle. "Having a cake and lightning candles on top, blowing them out, singing "Happy birthday to you" then cutting the cake and feeding it to closest relatives is a ritual. It cannot be compared to a computer or a watch, both of which are tools." Our whole conversation is about rituals. If you think it's a tangent then you aren't paying attention to the conversation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnPathToSikhi Posted October 12, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2014 What you are calling tangents is what this conversation is about. A candle by itself is a tool but you missed the part where the candle is part of a ritual. Barta is talking about a ritual not a candle. "Having a cake and lightning candles on top, blowing them out, singing "Happy birthday to you" then cutting the cake and feeding it to closest relatives is a ritual. It cannot be compared to a computer or a watch, both of which are tools." Our whole conversation is about rituals. If you think it's a tangent then you aren't paying attention to the conversation. Nope. I am paying attention and am clear in my understanding like I said already. A candle by itself is a tool but you missed the part where the candle is part of a ritual. That is the point. You missed the part where an electrical "tool" is a part of Diwali "ritual". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnPathToSikhi Posted October 12, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2014 What you are calling tangents is what this conversation is about. A candle by itself is a tool but you missed the part where the candle is part of a ritual. Barta is talking about a ritual not a candle. "Having a cake and lightning candles on top, blowing them out, singing "Happy birthday to you" then cutting the cake and feeding it to closest relatives is a ritual. It cannot be compared to a computer or a watch, both of which are tools." Our whole conversation is about rituals. If you think it's a tangent then you aren't paying attention to the conversation. I am also assuming based on your comments that the hindutva brigade is giving hints on targeting minorities (Christians specifically) and you are OK with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnPathToSikhi Posted October 12, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2014 Sir, why are you asking me questions if you already know the answer? Am I talking about Tibet? Nepal? Afghanistan? Pakistan? Sri Lanka? Process of elimination based on available evidence is pretty easy. And yes you have made no comment about the news from the States, and what should be done about it. My comment was in context on the article. So if you say that if you support the views of the article, be specific or just be bold enough criticize what is wrong. Don't be a hindutva dummy, if you know that is a rabbit hole path leading to nowhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BhagatSingh Posted October 12, 2014 Report Share Posted October 12, 2014 Nope. I am paying attention and am clear in my understanding like I said already. Ok if you are paying attention then I have no idea what you are talking about any more. You missed the part where an electrical "tool" is a part of Diwali "ritual". I believe I said "Electrical lights is a tool whereas Diwali is a ritual." how can you say I missed it when I am the one who said it in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnPathToSikhi Posted October 12, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2014 I believe I said "Electrical lights is a tool whereas Diwali is a ritual." how can you say I missed it when I am the one who said it in the first place. You missed the relation of the "tool" to the "ritual". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BhagatSingh Posted October 12, 2014 Report Share Posted October 12, 2014 You missed the relation of the "tool" to the "ritual". And you missed the fact that it's just a tool whereas the conversation is entirely about the ritual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnPathToSikhi Posted October 12, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2014 And you missed the fact that it's just a tool whereas the conversation is entirely about the ritual. Entirely? You are wrong. So you are saying there are no Cakes and Candles being mentioned the birthday celebration "ritual"? I suggest that you read the article again. Fat is, it is about Cakes & Candles and the Celebration "ritual" of someone's birthday, whoever wishes to celebrate so and an initiative and possible agenda by the hindutava terror brigade to prevent someone from doing so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BhagatSingh Posted October 12, 2014 Report Share Posted October 12, 2014 Entirely? You are wrong. So you are saying there are no Cakes and Candles being mentioned the birthday celebration "ritual"? I suggest that you read the article again. The point is that it isn't the cake and candles, it's about the ritual that involves them. And if you think it's about cake and candles then you haven't fully understood what Barta is talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnPathToSikhi Posted October 12, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2014 The point is that it isn't the cake and candles, it's about the ritual that involves them. How can you do one without the other? You still haven't got it it seems. And if you think it's about cake and candles then you haven't fully understood what Barta is talking about. I am fully aware what what Batra is talking about. I have already made that clear in my views. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BhagatSingh Posted October 12, 2014 Report Share Posted October 12, 2014 How can you do one without the other? You still haven't got it it seems. I am fully aware what what Batra is talking about. I have already made that clear in my views. You are arguing against a weak version of his argument when a stronger version already exists and has been pointed out to you. When I mentioned a sikh analogy ie idols in gurudwaras, you called it a tangent. Since the ritual worship of guru granth sahib and idol worship cannot be compared to a wristwatch, neither can the ritual of celebrating someone's birthday. Those are two different levels of rituals. By calling the strong version of the argument a tangent you signaled that you were completely oblivious to the strong version of the argument. So while you may completely grasp the weak version of the argument and your own counter argument to it, I don't think you understand the strong version of the argument at all. If you want to fully knock down what Barta says then you need to argue against the strong version of his argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnPathToSikhi Posted October 12, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2014 You are arguing against a weak version of his argument when a stronger version already exists and has been pointed out to you. When I mentioned a sikh analogy ie idols in gurudwaras, you called it a tangent. Since the ritual worship of guru granth sahib and idol worship cannot be compared to a wristwatch, neither can the ritual of celebrating someone's birthday. Those are two different levels of rituals. By calling the strong version of the argument a tangent you signaled that you were completely oblivious to the strong version of the argument. So while you may completely grasp the weak version of the argument and your own counter argument to it, I don't think you understand the strong version of the argument at all. If you want to fully knock down what Barta says then you need to argue against the strong version of his argument. This is what you had mentioned: "Would you be ok if they did arti in gurudwara, placed an idol of the guru and fed it kraha prashad?" Answer is: No Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BhagatSingh Posted October 12, 2014 Report Share Posted October 12, 2014 This is what you had mentioned: "Would you be ok if they did arti in gurudwara, placed an idol of the guru and fed it kraha prashad?" Answer is: No So one day you enter a gurudwara and they were doing it there. You say "Singh I don't like that because that's not a sikh ritual. It's not ok" He says " Look at your wrist, you are wearing a watch." You say "Well yeah I am but what's that got to do with anything?" He says "Wearing a wrist watch is not a sikh ritual but everyone including you is doing it" You *facepalm* then leave. Now imagine you are sikh version of Batra One day you go to someone's house and they are celebrating someone's birthday. Instead of making degh and doing patth, kirtan and ardas. They are blowing candles and cutting cakes. You say "Singh I don't like that because that's not a sikh ritual. It's not ok" He says " Look at your wrist, you are wearing a watch." You say "Well yeah I am but what's that got to do with anything?" He says "Wearing a wrist watch is not a sikh ritual but everyone including you is doing it" You *facepalm* then leave. At least you would if you were a sikh version of Batra. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnPathToSikhi Posted October 12, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2014 So one day you enter a gurudwara and they were doing it there. You say "Singh I don't like that because that's not a sikh ritual. It's not ok" He says " Look at your wrist, you are wearing a watch." You say "Well yeah I am but what's that got to do with anything?" He says "Wearing a wrist watch is not a sikh ritual but everyone including you is doing it" You *facepalm* then leave. Now imagine you are sikh version of Batra One day you go to someone's house and they are celebrating someone's birthday. Instead of making degh and doing patth, kirtan and ardas. They are blowing candles and cutting cakes. You say "Singh I don't like that because that's not a sikh ritual. It's not ok" He says " Look at your wrist, you are wearing a watch." You say "Well yeah I am but what's that got to do with anything?" He says "Wearing a wrist watch is not a sikh ritual but everyone including you is doing it" You *facepalm* then leave. At least you would if you were a sikh version of Batra. You have not driven home the point successfully, if that is what you were trying to achieve. Doing aarti, murti puja, etc is not a Sikh practice or ritual and therefore there is no substance to the argument that you have put forward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BhagatSingh Posted October 12, 2014 Report Share Posted October 12, 2014 Doing aarti, murti puja, etc is not a Sikh practice or ritual and therefore there is no substance to the argument that you have put forward. And with that I will *facepalm* and leave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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