Questions By A Non-Sikh

[paapiman]

You said for example: Guru Har Krishan needed an excuse to leave this world. That only raises more questions in my head. Why would a Guru or God in Guru form, need to come into the body of a 5 year old child only to "need an excuse" to leave 2 years later (via smallpox) in order only to come again as another Guru. Why not just go to Guru Teg Bahadur to begin with.

The reasons for God's incarnation as a small boy are many. An illiterate person like me, can think of three big ones:

1. Elimination of Age discrimination - Age ego affects many people. Through this incarnation, God proved that irrespective of a person's age, one should respect all and try to learn from his younger peers too.

2. Selfless service - Satguru jee did selfless service for humanity at such as young age. He put his own life at risk for helping sick people in need.

3. Establish a medicinal water pool - Satguru jee used to give medicinal water to thousands of sick people in need and he set up a pilgrimage site for the generations to come, so that they can cure their diseases too.

Take care.

Edited April 11, 2015 by paapiman

[paapiman]

​As a non Sikh I don't believe in the Guru's being divine, or inspired by God. Although I admire the message from Guru Gobin Singh very much. I see this historically and logically as maybe political decisions in which the Gurus were chosen, hence some of the internal problems that arose then and after within Sikhism.

Bro, please name us one person/saint/prophet/demi-god/deity,etc who has done more service to humanity than Lord Guru Nanak? I am curious to find out.

Peace

[paapiman]

And why did the Guru's have numerous children and wives if they only needed to pass on Guruship to one male?

What is wrong, in God having more than more wife? Even if our Satgurus had 1000's of wives, it would have been normal as he is not human like you or me. Also, Satguru jee already has numerous children as we are ALL children of God.

Numerous children? Simple answer to this question - To do welfare of humanity. For example, Baba Gurditta jee, first son of the sixth master was a great warrior and slaughtered many evil people. This is just one example, there are many more.

Peace

Edited April 11, 2015 by paapiman

[paapiman]

So some more questions, if the Gurus like you suggest were born without male participation, so all their wives of the Gurus and indeed the Gurus themselves were all virgins?

Guru Nanak didn't pass on the Guruship to his sons, (which is why Siri Chand started his own version of Sikhism - (Udaisi sikhs come from this) - does this mean children born with divine favour were still not as good as someone born normally ie Bhai lena.

What is so surprising, if all Satgurus and their wives were virgins? If Mother Mary can be a virgin, so can all the wives of Satgurus.

How do you know, Bhai Saab Bhai Lehna jee were born normally?

Peace

Edited April 17, 2015 by paapiman

[paapiman]

Furthermore Guru Har Rai had also 2 sons, Ram Rai and Har Krishan. Ram rai joined the Mughals and according to some sources had the 9th Guru Tegh Bahadur killed ( by convincing Aurengzeb ). Also to briefly mention Guru Tegh Bahadur nephew Dhir Mall, who had problems with him and the 10th Guru.

Bro, can you please provide me the source where it states that Baba Ram Rai jee was involved in the martyrdom of the ninth master?

According to an authentic Sikh source, Baba Ram Rai jee was forgiven by the tenth master.

Peace

[CdnSikhGirl]

1. Elimination of Age discrimination - Age ego affects many people. Through this incarnation, God proved that irrespective of a person's age, one should respect all and try to learn from his younger peers too.

So if eliminating age discrimination was one of the reasons, then why no woman as Guru to eliminate gender discrimination? It doesn't make sense that God would want to get rid of all forms of discrimination except that of gender... which in many cases has been the worst! What about respect for women, learning from women??

Only God knows the reasons, but it makes no sense to eliminate some forms of discrimination but not others.

[CdnSikhGirl]

What is so surprising, if all Satgurus and their wives were virgins? If Mother Mary can be a virgin, so can all the wives of Satgurus.

How do you know Bhai Saab Bhai Lehna jee were born normally?

Peace

Interestingly I watched a documentary last night on the shroud of Turin, and they tested the blood... whoever was in that shroud (and they believe it was Jesus) had human DNA which was not solely mitochondrial DNA. Mitochondrial DNA is the type of DNA passed by the Mother. There was evidence of two contributors, and both were human.

I have never heard until this forum that the Gurus were virgins and their wives had all immaculate conceptions. This is not a widely held belief. I asked a visiting Giani his thoughts on this and its also not something he has heard before either. With nothing in writing, I don't know if its true or not... but does it really matter anyway? The Gurus taught us to live life of householder and not ascetic. To not abstain, but to share the gift of togetherness with one's spouse. Why can't we just follow what they taught, without questioning if they did the same or not... Either they did or didn't but what happened in the bedrooms of the Gurus I don't think is our business to pick it apart.

[paapiman]

So if eliminating age discrimination was one of the reasons, then why no woman as Guru to eliminate gender discrimination? It doesn't make sense that God would want to get rid of all forms of discrimination except that of gender... which in many cases has been the worst! What about respect for women, learning from women??

Only God knows the reasons, but it makes no sense to eliminate some forms of discrimination but not others.

There is clear evidence in Sikh history with regards to age discrimination. There was a pundit who wondered, how can such a small child be a guru and have a name, which in a sense was better than that of Lord Krishna. Satguru jee shattered his ego and he became a Sikh.

Satguru jee also eliminated discrimination against women. Satguru jee gave enough rights to women. Women were treated very lowly during those times. For example, women were NOT allowed to listen to Katha. Maharaaj gave them this right, which was revolutionary at that time. Even the first Sikh of Satguru jee was a woman. There are many more such examples.

Dhan Dhan Satguru Sri Guru Nanak Dev jee Maharaaj

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

Edited April 12, 2015 by paapiman

[paapiman]

Interestingly I watched a documentary last night on the shroud of Turin, and they tested the blood... whoever was in that shroud (and they believe it was Jesus) had human DNA which was not solely mitochondrial DNA. Mitochondrial DNA is the type of DNA passed by the Mother. There was evidence of two contributors, and both were human.

I have never heard until this forum that the Gurus were virgins and their wives had all immaculate conceptions. This is not a widely held belief. I asked a visiting Giani his thoughts on this and its also not something he has heard before either. With nothing in writing, I don't know if its true or not... but does it really matter anyway? The Gurus taught us to live life of householder and not ascetic. To not abstain, but to share the gift of togetherness with one's spouse. Why can't we just follow what they taught, without questioning if they did the same or not... Either they did or didn't but what happened in the bedrooms of the Gurus I don't think is our business to pick it apart.

Is there any 100% proof that the above mentioned corpse was that of Jesus? According to Quran, Jesus Christ aka Hazrat Isaa jee was raised to heaven, so there would be no corpse left.

Which Gyani did you talk to? What are his credentials? Which Taksaal did he study at? There is a BIG difference between widely held belief and orthodox belief. According to orthodox sects of Sikhism, Satguru jee did NOT engage in any sexual activity like animals or humans do.

Guru Sahib never forced householder life on a Sikh, even though they encouraged it due to Kaljugee times. Therefore, in Gurmat we have an option to either become a householder or an ascetic. Satguru jee were also not against marriage, yet we see so many famous Gursikhs following celibacy.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

Edited April 12, 2015 by paapiman

[CdnSikhGirl]

There is clear evidence in Sikh history with regards to age discrimination. There was a pundit who wondered, how can such a small child be a guru and have a name, which in a sense was better than that of Lord Krishna. Satguru jee shattered his ego and he became a Sikh.

Satguru jee also eliminated discrimination against women. Satguru jee gave enough rights to women. Women were treated very lowly during those times. For example, women were NOT allowed to listen to Katha. Maharaaj gave them this right, which was revolutionary at that time. Even the first Sikh of Satguru jee was a woman. There are many more such examples.

Dhan Dhan Satguru Sri Guru Nanak Dev jee Maharaaj

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

WJKK WJKF,

Ahhh but yet discrimination still persists. Just because someone's rights are elevated from what they were before, does not mean the discrimination was completely eliminated.

We don't have to look fat to see it in Sikhi either to this day!!

1. Dominating Husbands and in-laws

2. Women encouraged to not pursue higher education or professional careers so they can stay at home and live simple life doing menial tasks serving the husband and their family

3. Gurdwaras restricting women from having equal participation in religious duties... chaur sahib seva, taking hukam, participating in akhand paaths, kirtan, panj pyares etc. (even though these things have been explicitly clarified in the SIkh Rehet Maryada... which though some disagree with, is still the closest thing we have to panthic unified rehit maryada).

4. Arguments about what happened or didnt happen in 1699 do not matter. Authority was given to the panth by Guru Gobind Singh Ji. This allowed Sikhi to continue to develop for the times. So whether or not women were restricted then (which is debatable and unproven), it does not matter in the present because Sikhi was given the ability to evolve over time by Panthic decision.

5. Women being told what to wear by Singhs who think they can wear anything. If a Singh is telling a Singhni to only ever wear salwar kameez, then he should only ever wear kurta pyjama. end of story. As long as clothing is modest and respectable, both men and women should be free to wear what they want. But I always see Singhs posing on Facebook photos flexing their muscles at the gym with bare arms and sometimes even chest. Yet those same Singhs are first ones to criticize a Singhni for merely wearing a pair of jeans with a modest kurti! If you are going to preach it, then practice what you preach!

I guess I am lucky... here locally and in Canada in general male / female are equal in Sikhi. Most follow SRM and AKJ especially puts it into practice. I HIGHLY respect AKJ. I have seen female panj pyares in AKJ samagams. At my Gurdwara we are not affiliated to a Jatha but twice in the last decade the ENTIRE management committee was made up of women!!!!! That's EVERY position from President to Vice, to Treasurer, to Secretary were all women! You can google it... Maritime Sikh Society. This year, I am myself on the Executive! I was elected as treasurer which is a very important position paperwork wise. At our Gurdwara, you will see a woman do Ardas, take Hukam, women do most of the kirtan. If I wanted to, I could walk up and do chaur sahib seva but usually the students do it.

But at Harmandir Sahib which is supposed to be the seat of our faith... most holy place... and women are told they can't do majority of the seva. And there is no reason cited except for 'tradition'. But if the Gurus taught us anything about tradition is that useless rituals and traditions should be broken... they did it with satee, among other things. Singing shabads... singing praises of God, there is no reason it needs to be a mans voice. Some of the best kirtan I have heard was performed by women. My friend... an Amritdhari Singhni was in Amritsar recently with her husband, and she tried to go for palki seva (she tried to slip in quickly to see what would happen). A jathedar stopped her, and went to her husband (wouldn't even talk to her) and told her husband to 'keep control of his Singhni'. Some of the silly excuses for palki sahib seva are that its heavy... etc. But she is tall and not weak! She easily could have done it. But its how the jathedar ignored her and told her husband to 'control' his Singhni. Once, a woman did do Kirtan there but upstairs of Sanctum Sanctorum. They tried to stop her but a group (even made of Singhs) made a circle around her to block them, until she was finished.

These things need to stop. Why do you think it was more important to have a male child respected and listened to, than adult devoted and deeply spiritual women?

[paapiman]

WJKK WJKF,

Ahhh but yet discrimination still persists. Just because someone's rights are elevated from what they were before, does not mean the discrimination was completely eliminated.

We don't have to look fat to see it in Sikhi either to this day!!

1. Dominating Husbands and in-laws

2. Women encouraged to not pursue higher education or professional careers so they can stay at home and live simple life doing menial tasks serving the husband and their family

3. Gurdwaras restricting women from having equal participation in religious duties... chaur sahib seva, taking hukam, participating in akhand paaths, kirtan, panj pyares etc. (even though these things have been explicitly clarified in the SIkh Rehet Maryada... which though some disagree with, is still the closest thing we have to panthic unified rehit maryada).

4. Arguments about what happened or didnt happen in 1699 do not matter. Authority was given to the panth by Guru Gobind Singh Ji. This allowed Sikhi to continue to develop for the times. So whether or not women were restricted then (which is debatable and unproven), it does not matter in the present because Sikhi was given the ability to evolve over time by Panthic decision.

5. Women being told what to wear by Singhs who think they can wear anything. If a Singh is telling a Singhni to only ever wear salwar kameez, then he should only ever wear kurta pyjama. end of story. As long as clothing is modest and respectable, both men and women should be free to wear what they want. But I always see Singhs posing on Facebook photos flexing their muscles at the gym with bare arms and sometimes even chest. Yet those same Singhs are first ones to criticize a Singhni for merely wearing a pair of jeans with a modest kurti! If you are going to preach it, then practice what you preach!

I guess I am lucky... here locally and in Canada in general male / female are equal in Sikhi. Most follow SRM and AKJ especially puts it into practice. I HIGHLY respect AKJ. I have seen female panj pyares in AKJ samagams. At my Gurdwara we are not affiliated to a Jatha but twice in the last decade the ENTIRE management committee was made up of women!!!!! That's EVERY position from President to Vice, to Treasurer, to Secretary were all women! You can google it... Maritime Sikh Society. This year, I am myself on the Executive! I was elected as treasurer which is a very important position paperwork wise. At our Gurdwara, you will see a woman do Ardas, take Hukam, women do most of the kirtan. If I wanted to, I could walk up and do chaur sahib seva but usually the students do it.

But at Harmandir Sahib which is supposed to be the seat of our faith... most holy place... and women are told they can't do majority of the seva. And there is no reason cited except for 'tradition'. But if the Gurus taught us anything about tradition is that useless rituals and traditions should be broken... they did it with satee, among other things. Singing shabads... singing praises of God, there is no reason it needs to be a mans voice. Some of the best kirtan I have heard was performed by women. My friend... an Amritdhari Singhni was in Amritsar recently with her husband, and she tried to go for palki seva (she tried to slip in quickly to see what would happen). A jathedar stopped her, and went to her husband (wouldn't even talk to her) and told her husband to 'keep control of his Singhni'. Some of the silly excuses for palki sahib seva are that its heavy... etc. But she is tall and not weak! She easily could have done it. But its how the jathedar ignored her and told her husband to 'control' his Singhni. Once, a woman did do Kirtan there but upstairs of Sanctum Sanctorum. They tried to stop her but a group (even made of Singhs) made a circle around her to block them, until she was finished.

These things need to stop. Why do you think it was more important to have a male child respected and listened to, than adult devoted and deeply spiritual women?

I think you should have posted the above message somewhere else. This forum was started to help a NON-SIKH understand Sikhi better. You are causing confusion on this topic sister by bringing in issues such as clothing, in-laws, maryada at Sri Harmandar Sahib, 1699, etc.

Answers to your concerns in a different post.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

Edited April 12, 2015 by paapiman

[CdnSikhGirl]

I think you should have posted the above message somewhere else. This forum was started to help a NON-SIKH understand Sikhi better. You are causing confusion on this topic sister by bringing in issues such as clothing, in-laws, maryada at Sri Harmandar Sahib, 1699, etc.

Answers to your concerns in a different post.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

WJKK WJKF,

Sorry I got a bit carried away

[paapiman]

WJKK WJKF,

Sorry I got a bit carried away

No problem. Humans like me always make mistakes.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh