So-Called Mistakes In Ddt Books

[Guest]

Papiman, I think satkiran penji has a very good argument here that interpertation from damdami taksal is prone to explotation of women which is sadly whats happening - she is right in that regard, so instead of just quoting over her point. Why don't you get in contact with gurmukhs from damdami taksal vidvans to address these points?

In fact, can anyone can get sant hari singh ji randhawale who is in canada, explains this multi prong aspects of gurbani here?. I wish gurmukhs vidvans from damdami taksal can further fragment interpretation, break down to uthanka, deep arths, vikayaran arths.

[CdnSikhGirl]

A personal question Paapiman... answer honestly. Do you believe men are superior to women, and that women were meant to be subordinate, subservient, and obedient to men? (Because if you believe that drivel you posted which was misinterpreted) that's essentially what's it's saying. When we say that someone is God to someone else... we mean that what that person says goes. They are the boss. They are the one in control and dominant over the other and must be obeyed no matter what. To make coparison to 'God' is not even at the level of say a boss at work... but if that tuk was an instruction to women (which it isnt) it would be saying that women have no authority over their lives, their husbands have all authority over them, and that no matter what their husbands say goes and she must just be subservient and obey. That would be a master / slave relationship condoned in SGGSJ. Since all of Gurbani speaks of the equality of all humans, then that would not make sense at all. BUt on a personal level... its obvious what you think of women and the position they should be in compared to you. I really hope someday you fall off your superior male pedistal..

[paapiman]

Papiman, I think satkiran penji has a very good argument here that interpertation from damdami taksal is prone to explotation of women which is sadly whats happening - she is right in that regard, so instead of just quoting over her point. Why don't you get in contact with gurmukhs from damdami taksal vidvans to address these points?

Bro, if some fools exploit women, then we cannot blame the maryada for it. Anyways, I do believe that it is very hard to find males who deserve that kind of respect (considering them as a lord) from a woman.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

[CdnSikhGirl]

Bro, if some fools exploit women, then we cannot blame the maryada for it. Anyways, I do believe that it is very hard to find males who deserve that kind of respect (considering them as a lord) from a woman.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

Just the very fact of stating outright that women are to view men in this way is exploitation... telling a woman she has to submit and be obedient to men, just poinint out this fact...is definitely not benefiting the woman! However, the men get to enjoy superiority, being waited on, getting to boss around women and scold or punish them if they disobey... (after all if its ordained by God)

That tuk is mis interpreted for DDT's own agenda... to keep male superiority and female submission and obedience.

Hint (and this is the same for all women):

The only men I would ever consider as God are those who actually espouse the qualities of God... which includes true equality. In short, a man who considers me as his equal in all respects and deserving of equal opportunity and equal say and equal participation, that is the male I will see the light of God within. No woman would ever consider a man who just seeks to dominate, control as God....ever. She may be obedient (out of fear) but she will NEVER respect that man.

Edited May 4, 2015 by Satkirin_Kaur

[mahanpaapi]

This note may be helpful for doubters but not for partisans.

Please note that only those who totally have merged with Satguru Nanak Sache Patshah and accepted in Sachkhand, Brahamgyani sent directly from Dargah as listed in the Sau Sakhi, or further blessed by them, can explain the Gurbani based on their Naam Kamai.

If we invent our meaning devoid of shabad based spiritual experiences and deny the direction by those realized souls, then we are merely engaged in intellectual gymnastics and heading into the darkness.

Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj stated that one who has ten times more mind the Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj can only explain the Gurbani, Similarly, Baba Nand Singh Ji Nanaksar Kaleran said that no one can claim or try to understand the Guru through Gurbani, because human intellect is too small for that.

The Gurbani essentially transcends and higher than all mind made ideologies, left, right, and all ism etc.

I also request N30 to please take note of implicit use of despairing language used against those Dargahi Souls and their maryada. There is fundamental distinction between disagreeing and offending.

Finally humble apologies to all .

[Guest]

Bro, if some fools exploit women, then we cannot blame the maryada for it. Anyways, I do believe that it is very hard to find males who deserve that kind of respect (considering them as a lord) from a woman.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

Yes but if that exploitation becomes trend where people are exploiting by hiding behind maryada than vidvans needs to clarify and set the record straight further thats its two way street. For example - few years ago i vividly remember sant hari singh ji randhawale said - sikhi is pati varta dharam but in same breath he also mentioned its panti varta dharam-obedience both ways- as well as its two way street. Two people get together, come in marriage, commit to serve each other unequivocally worldly/spiritually- then together as one unit serve true lord husband, but i mean its clearly an updesh in anand karaj.

[paapiman]

Where is the op?

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

[Singh123456777]

You are the op papimaan lol

[Kuttabanda2]

Here is answer to your question on AKJ and how their rehet is closest to the original:

"Unfortunately at many points in our history, true and authentic Sikh rehit became something that was rare. After numerous holocausts and extended periods of living in the jungles of Punjab, differences in rehit crept into the Sikh Panth.

The rehit is a code of conduct which has been passed down from the original amrit sanchaar in an oral fashion. Old rehitnamas, like the one written by Bhai Desa Singh state, (in the seventh stanza) that rehit which the five utter, keep that steadfast in your mind and later in the ninth stanza, that is the first rehit, the one which the five Singhs said in the Paahul ceremony.

The Khalsa Rehit suffered some dilution in the 18th and 19th century. But the Malwa area of Punjab had some areas where this rehit was preserved. Certain movements like the Namdhari movement, which originally had amazing rehit and was originally not a Gurudom, came out of Malwa. Deras like Baba Ajaipal Singh were known for strict rehit. So the original Khalsa rehit was not lost, it was kept in some places.

How can the AKJ substantiate that their rehit is authentic? The answer comes from looking at historical documents and sources. Keski is a rehit that is clear due to bhat vehees, which are the most historic and authentic documents from the time of the first amrit sanchaar. In these vehis, the records of the original amrit sanchaar list Kesgee as a kakaar. The Akhand Kirtani Jatha is one of the only Sikh groups that still preserves Keski as a kakaar to this day.

Along with his many other qualities, Bhai Randhir Singh was an ardent seeker of truth. He was not bound by many of the Hindu-influenced practices that had infiltrated the panth before his time. He was also not bound by following a belief simply because it was a tradition and therefore assumed to be a maryada. Bhai Randhir Singh sought to look to Gurbani and Sikh history to see what was the authentic Sikh lifestyle and to revive that lifestyle during his life. Keski rehit was revived because of Bhai Randhir Singh even though it had been on the decline since the reign of Maharaja Ranjit Singh. Bhai Randhir Singh cared only for the truth. He was not a Sant-like figure who was bound by the beliefs of a predecessor from the same jatha or group.

So it is fair to say that while the Akhand Kirtani Jatha is a relatively new Jatha, only around 100 years old, that it has been carrying on the Sikh rehit as it existed during the time of Guru Gobind Singh Jee and after the time of Guru Gobind Singh Jee, although the true and authentic Sikh rehit may have become rare at various points in our history.

It is commonplace for many Sikh organizations to claim an uninterrupted connection back to the time of Guru Gobind Singh Jee. A study of Sikh history discredits any such claims. Sikhs should look at their history critically to make the proper judgments on this question. Many groups within the panth claim that their institution has been passed on from the lineage of famous Gursikhs from the time of Sri Guru Gobind Singh Jee. For example, some claim their lineage comes from Bhai Daya Singh Ji while another group may claim that their unbroken lineage comes from Shaheed Bhai Mani Singh Ji. However, an analysis of these groups demonstrates that their practices are not in line with the great Gursikhs they claim an association with. For example, Bhai Daya Singh Ji mentions to eat out of Sarbloh (iron utensils) from other Amrit Dharis but the group who claims to be descended from his leadership does not follow this practice. Shaheed Bhai Mani Singh Ji describes the method of how panj pyareh teach new Amrit Dharis how to jap naam with the tip of their tongue but the groups claiming a direct lineage to Bhai Mani Singh Ji have not incorporated this into their amrit sanchaars.

Secondly, the process of giving authority to one being and passing it down to a student is not in accordance with Gurmat. Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji gave authority to Punj Pyareh and every panthic institution in the past was governed by the Punj Pyareh so no group can claim a direct lineage or a secret understanding of puratan (old time) traditions when they have abandoned the tradition of Punj Pyareh governance."

The Rehat of the Ashki Karaunwala Jatha is not the most authentic.

For example, the Keski being the fifth Kaakar argument is based solely on their own reasoning, and an excerpt from a Bhatt Vahi, which is no longer available in it's original form.

Also, isn't the Bhai Desa Singh Rehatnama the same Rehatnama that says to protect the cow and Brahman?

Furthermore, their reasoning for a short Mool Mantar is also weak and has been refuted.

The short Chaupai Sahib argument is also redundant and incoherent to Sri Dasam Granth Sahib's Bani.

Don't get me wrong here, I myself associate with the Akhand Kirtani Jatha but I however an annoyed the likes of the PKJ (AKJ.org wale, Shikaaris, Dasam Bani nindhaks, etc.) who have a superiority complex and act as if they're without flaw and most intelligent in the Panth.

And for Sarblohi Aahar Bibek, it has been kept by many Taksalis and Nihangs as well.

[paapiman]

You are the op papimaan lol

hahaha...good one....that was a quiz.......you passed.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

[Singh123456777]

hahaha...good one....that was a quiz.......you passed.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

lol

[SikhKhoj]

Sects that defame our Guru need to be criticized. Sikhi criticizes Islamic rituals, Hindu rituals and Jain rituals, don't think Guru wouldn't want us to criticize the bads in all these sects.

There is no need for these sects when we have Gurmat, one soch but anyways whatever floats your boat.

We have Taksal chiefs book saying stuff like

* Guru Har Rai married 8 sisters at the age of 11.

* Bhagats of SGGS reincarnated as Panj Pyare - attack on gurbani, because bhagats wrote bani of SGGS and are still told to be in reincarnation cycle. I don't want stories like 'oh blabla the Bhagats wanted to get amrit' because why didn't all Bhagats come back then to take amrit? And historical proofs show that Bhagats did meet Guru Nanak Dev Ji and get amrit from Guru Sahib so why again? Did Mardana come again too? And Baba Buddha?

On page 62 Gurbachan Singh says that one shouldn't read Gurbani while walking because once Guru Nanak dev jis feet started bleeding when a sikh was reciting kirtan sohila while walking. Hello, wake up?

These sects brainwash their followers into believing stuff that divides Sikhi more than ever. Just look at Sarbloh bibek

[CdnSikhGirl]

Well to some it's Gurmat to exclude women and to some it's Gurmat to include them so we can't even agree as to what Gurmat is. I myself don't follow DDT or any other sect including AKJ though I respect AKJ for their dedication. I follow only SRM.

[Guest]

We have Taksal chiefs book saying stuff like

* Guru Har Rai married 8 sisters at the age of 11.

* Bhagats of SGGS reincarnated as Panj Pyare - attack on gurbani, because bhagats wrote bani of SGGS and are still told to be in reincarnation cycle. I don't want stories like 'oh blabla the Bhagats wanted to get amrit' because why didn't all Bhagats come back then to take amrit? And historical proofs show that Bhagats did meet Guru Nanak Dev Ji and get amrit from Guru Sahib so why again? Did Mardana come again too? And Baba Buddha?

On page 62 Gurbachan Singh says that one shouldn't read Gurbani while walking because once Guru Nanak dev jis feet started bleeding when a sikh was reciting kirtan sohila while walking. Hello, wake up?

These sects brainwash their followers into believing stuff that divides Sikhi more than ever. Just look at Sarbloh bibek

Actually i can try addressing these points.

- Totally agree with lack of explanation on these, not sure where you got the sisters though..probably wives who were sisters among themselves.... they actually mentioned on their site- wives as consorts- lack of proper terminology or words due to linguistic barriers. One of my freind who is kathavachik had married gori singhani and she almost vommit when she read the term 'consort'.

- This needs to be further explained with gurbani underpinning. Gurbani talks about- Gurmukh aaye jaaye nisung which means gurmukh does not have any restriction on coming or going..which means gurmukh according to hakum of vahiguru- who is liberated can come back to benefit human kind. Thats most plausible and convincing explanation i can think of...I don't doubt this sakhi. However this sakhiya is prone to be hijacked by people to try to put claim supremacy of one particular way.

- Seem like fear scolding bachan to bring discipline at intial stage, just like when parents scold their children, it does not mean that will happen written on a stone.. If its read well within context then its fine but normally neither context is provided nor reader sees it is context, which is quite unfortunate.

[SikhKhoj]

Neo, do you really think your 'explanation' makes sense or makes DDT book seem more sensible? Why would Guru Nanak Dev Jis feet bleed if a Sikh recited bani while walking? Why would DDT (or God as he says) discourage reading Bani while walking?

Because I am not conditioned to follow any human being or sect I can see right through these things and compare it to bani and see whose wrong:

Page 404, Line 18

ਚਾਲਤ ਬੈਸਤ ਸੋਵਤ ਹਰਿ ਜਸੁ ਮਨਿ ਤਨਿ ਚਰਨ ਖਟਾਨੀ ॥੨॥

Walking, sitting and sleeping, I chant the Lord's Praises; I treasure His Feet in my mind and body. ||2||

Guru Arjan Dev

I thought you would rise above this... Cognitive dissonance.

Edited May 7, 2015 by SikhKhoj

[Guest]

You have a good point, but i see bachan in the book as scolding to beginner, novice to bring discipline who is not discipline yet, taking gurbani everywhere while walking around without washing hands etc.

May be other ddt gyanis can further explain.

[paapiman]

Sects that defame our Guru need to be criticized. Sikhi criticizes Islamic rituals, Hindu rituals and Jain rituals, don't think Guru wouldn't want us to criticize the bads in all these sects.

There is no need for these sects when we have Gurmat, one soch but anyways whatever floats your boat.

We have Taksal chiefs book saying stuff like

* Guru Har Rai married 8 sisters at the age of 11.

* Bhagats of SGGS reincarnated as Panj Pyare - attack on gurbani, because bhagats wrote bani of SGGS and are still told to be in reincarnation cycle. I don't want stories like 'oh blabla the Bhagats wanted to get amrit' because why didn't all Bhagats come back then to take amrit? And historical proofs show that Bhagats did meet Guru Nanak Dev Ji and get amrit from Guru Sahib so why again? Did Mardana come again too? And Baba Buddha?

On page 62 Gurbachan Singh says that one shouldn't read Gurbani while walking because once Guru Nanak dev jis feet started bleeding when a sikh was reciting kirtan sohila while walking. Hello, wake up?

These sects brainwash their followers into believing stuff that divides Sikhi more than ever. Just look at Sarbloh bibek

You should have posted the above points in the more appropriate topic.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

Edited May 8, 2015 by paapiman

[SikhKhoj]

Paapiman, be ready to defend your Baba Gurbachan Singh and Taksal:

We have Taksal chiefs book saying stuff like

* Guru Har Rai married 8 sisters at the age of 11.

* Bhagats of SGGS reincarnated as Panj Pyare - attack on gurbani, because bhagats wrote bani of SGGS and are still told to be in reincarnation cycle. I don't want stories like 'oh blabla the Bhagats wanted to get amrit' because why didn't all Bhagats come back then to take amrit? And historical proofs show that Bhagats did meet Guru Nanak Dev Ji and get amrit from Guru Sahib so why again? Did Mardana come again too? And Baba Buddha?

On page 62 Gurbachan Singh says that one shouldn't read Gurbani while walking because once Guru Nanak dev jis feet started bleeding when a sikh was reciting kirtan sohila while walking. Hello, wake up?

1. Regarding Guru Har Rai Sahibs marriage:

I am no modern apologetic Sikh trying to deny that some of our Gurus had more than a marriage, but there were some causes such as having no children (Guru Arjan Ji, Guru Gobind Singh ji) but to claim that Guru Har Rai married 8 sisters and that too at the age of 11 is plain stupid. Yes, our Gurus married quite early but the bride only came later when she was older, but what about this marriage where 8 sisters are married off to Guru Ji? What is the historical basis?

2. Bhagats were out of janam maran - reincarnation. Besides that they had taken Amrit from Guru Nanak Dev Ji so they had no need to take amrit from Guru Gobind Singh (10th Nanak) as some of your taksalis claim.

3. Baba Gurbachan is in clear contradiction with Gurmat by saying you can't recite Gurbani while walking:

Moreover, to justify this so called Rehat he makes up a Sakhi about Guru Nanak Dev Jis feet bleeding when a Sikh recited Bani while walking.

Did Baba Ji know of this pangti?

Page 404, Line 18

ਚਾਲਤ ਬੈਸਤ ਸੋਵਤ ਹਰਿ ਜਸੁ ਮਨਿ ਤਨਿ ਚਰਨ ਖਟਾਨੀ ॥੨॥

Walking, sitting and sleeping, I chant the Lord's Praises; I treasure His Feet in my mind and body. ||2||

Guru Arjan Dev

[SikhKhoj]

Kutta Banda, yes Desa Singh Rehat is very recent (late 18th to 19th century). It also justifies consuming intoxicating subtances.

[Singh123456777]

Baba farid never met guru nanak dev Ji... Instead it was the person who was on the gaddi of baba farid who met guru Ji and gave guru Ji the writings of baba farid...

[paapiman]

Neo, do you really think your 'explanation' makes sense or makes DDT book seem more sensible? Why would Guru Nanak Dev Jis feet bleed if a Sikh recited bani while walking? Why would DDT (or God as he says) discourage reading Bani while walking?

Bro, I don't think you know the sakhi of Satguru jee's feet bleeding. There was a Gursikh Shepherd, who was reciting Gurbani (with focus and love), while he was doing his job. His feet were being pricked by thorns. As he was in tune with Gurbani, it was Satguru jee who took all his pain. That is why, Maharaaj's feet started bleeding.

The bachan (according to my very limited knowledge) might be applicable for Brahamgyanis or people of high spiritual states. If they walk and attain samadhi, then all their bodily pains/injuries will be taken by Satguru jee. It would be similar to a person who is sleep walking. Sleep walking can lead to deadly injuries.

Below is an example of how dangerous sleep walking can be.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/stanford-center-for-sleep-sciences-and-medicine/sleep-disorders_b_3826048.html

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

Edited May 8, 2015 by paapiman

[paapiman]

Edited May 8, 2015 by paapiman

[paapiman]

Paapiman, be ready to defend your Baba Gurbachan Singh and Taksal:

We have Taksal chiefs book saying stuff like

* Guru Har Rai married 8 sisters at the age of 11.

* Bhagats of SGGS reincarnated as Panj Pyare - attack on gurbani, because bhagats wrote bani of SGGS and are still told to be in reincarnation cycle. I don't want stories like 'oh blabla the Bhagats wanted to get amrit' because why didn't all Bhagats come back then to take amrit? And historical proofs show that Bhagats did meet Guru Nanak Dev Ji and get amrit from Guru Sahib so why again? Did Mardana come again too? And Baba Buddha?

On page 62 Gurbachan Singh says that one shouldn't read Gurbani while walking because once Guru Nanak dev jis feet started bleeding when a sikh was reciting kirtan sohila while walking. Hello, wake up?

1. Regarding Guru Har Rai Sahibs marriage:

I am no modern apologetic Sikh trying to deny that some of our Gurus had more than a marriage, but there were some causes such as having no children (Guru Arjan Ji, Guru Gobind Singh ji) but to claim that Guru Har Rai married 8 sisters and that too at the age of 11 is plain stupid. Yes, our Gurus married quite early but the bride only came later when she was older, but what about this marriage where 8 sisters are married off to Guru Ji? What is the historical basis?

Satguru jee can marry as many women as he likes. He is GOD man, not like us. It's so simple to understand. Satguru jee is ageless.

2. Bhagats were out of janam maran - reincarnation. Besides that they had taken Amrit from Guru Nanak Dev Ji so they had no need to take amrit from Guru Gobind Singh (10th Nanak) as some of your taksalis claim.

Bhagats can come and go at will. It is very easy to understand.

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਆਵੈ ਜਾਇ ਨਿਸੰਗੁ ॥

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

[CdnSikhGirl]

paapiman, your explanation basically makes the statement God= Male and therefore males are superior, while God taking a bunch of wives as he so likes, turns women into a mere comodity for men's enjoyment and use. I really don't think that's how the Guru's thought of women. You on the other hand...

[SikhKhoj]

@ Satkirin: God is nor male nor female Satkirin.

@ Singh123: And Bhagat Fareed Bani is second Farids Bani. If you want to debate me then start another topic and I will debate you with internal Gurbani and external historical references. All others bhagats like Nama, Kabir, etc met Guru Nanak in UP according to Janamsakhis like Mehervan Janamsakhi. Start another topic, but don't run away like every time because you can't respond with arguments please because I actually waste quite some time compiling posts with adequate tuks and historical basis.