amardeep Posted July 30, 2015 Report Share Posted July 30, 2015 Why does there need to be a famous Sikh Kalal before they are allowed to be mentioned in there? Does it say anywhere that it is a lexicon of famous Sikh castes? no. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted July 30, 2015 Report Share Posted July 30, 2015 Okay do some more research on how many manuscripts there are. Especially to see if there are any manuscripts that lack the first chapter. That would actually be more interesting. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted July 30, 2015 Report Share Posted July 30, 2015 (edited) Well is there even one famous Sikh Kalal pre Jassa Singh?That's like arguing that prior to Bhai Lalo, there were no tarkhans in Panjab or that they were numerically tiny because there was no famous tarkhan before. Just because people don't come to prominence, it doesn't mean they were not a regular feature of society. Edited July 30, 2015 by dalsingh101 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SikhKhoj Posted July 30, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 30, 2015 Okay do some more research on how many manuscripts there are. Especially to see if there are any manuscripts that lack the first chapter. That would actually be more interesting.I told you there aren't. There are not even many Prem Sumarag manuscripts to begin with, less than 10 in any case. 2 chapter 1 alone in comparison to 6-8 complete PrS is somewhat significant. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SikhKhoj Posted July 30, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 30, 2015 That's like arguing that prior to Bhai Lalo, there were no tarkhans in Panjab or that they were numerically tiny because there was no famous tarkhan before. Just because people don't come to prominence, it doesn't mean they were not a regular feature of society. I am not saying Kalals did not exist, I am saying that if there were no Kalal Sikhs then why was there need to discuss them in SIKH caste intermarriages? It is not a Granth about Punjabi people but Sikh people, and therefore it would be logical to include only prominent Sikh castes or varnas when mentioning about intercaste marriages instead of naming each and every caste in his Granth. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted July 30, 2015 Report Share Posted July 30, 2015 Oh give me a break, dont tell me you know exactly how many Prem Sumarag Granth manuscripts are out there. Are you really that positive you know everything about everything now?Be honest and just say you dont know how many manuscripts there are nor do you know if any manuscript devoid of 1st chapter exist.. .Stop trying to have answers to everything... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SikhKhoj Posted July 30, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 30, 2015 Have you ever read a manuscript in Panjab ? I have spent 2 years in libraries of Panjab so don't come and teach me you internet scholar. I have first hand read manuscripts and quoted extensively about such manuscripts on this forum, sometimes with and sometimes without references. Its not by sitting in Denmark that you will know about manuscripts ;)I know about the most prominent libraries and the Prem Sumarags they house and only less than 10 manuscript locations are known. I challenge you to show more ? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SikhKhoj Posted July 30, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 30, 2015 I repeat: I have had first hand access to quite some libraries, I have talked to scholars and read the opinions on the PrS from Surinder Kohli to Randhir Singh to Mcleod. I have knowledge of all the KNOWN manuscripts that have been mentioned in literature. And from these KNOWN manuscripts I tell you there are not that many; less than 7-8 and exclusively from the 19th century.Two manuscripts exist with only the first chapter. More could exist but two are KNOWN. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted July 30, 2015 Report Share Posted July 30, 2015 Wah wah people should write poems in your praise. No I dont know how many there manuscripts there are.The fact that you only know about the KNOWN manuscripts puts a limitation to your knowledge. Just because you dont know of other manuscripts does'nt mean they dont exist. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SikhKhoj Posted July 30, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 30, 2015 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Punjabi_tribesThere are many tribes right? Some are big some are small. Why aren't other small sections of Sikh community mentioned like Puri, Rawal, Saini, etc named in the marriage section (for example)? Because they were either less in number or had no prominent personality to be mentioned in a section detailing SIKH CASTE INTERMARRIAGES - it focusses on Sikhs and not all Kalals, or all Brahmins. Only those people of the sect who adhered to Sikhi. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted July 30, 2015 Report Share Posted July 30, 2015 Have you ever read a manuscript in Panjab ? I have spent 2 years in libraries of Panjab so don't come and teach me you internet scholar. I have first hand read manuscripts and quoted extensively about such manuscripts on this forum, sometimes with and sometimes without references. Its not by sitting in Denmark that you will know about manuscripts ;)I know about the most prominent libraries and the Prem Sumarags they house and only less than 10 manuscript locations are known. I challenge you to show more ?Dude, for someone who is supposed to be a knowledge loving scholar you really come across as someone who is totally incapable of getting ANY sort of grip on his ego. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SikhKhoj Posted July 30, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 30, 2015 Don't care man. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted July 30, 2015 Report Share Posted July 30, 2015 The funny thing is, - I've met people from all over the world who engage in Ithiasik research and manuscript analysis. What they all have in common is that the more they read, the more humble they tend to become.. With Sikhkhoj it seems that the more books he reads, the more arrogant he becomes. ਸ੍ਵੈਯਾ ਇਹ ਵੇਦ ਕੋ ਗ੍ਯਾਨ ਸੁਜਾਨਨ ਕੇ ਅਭਿਮਾਨ ਮਦਾਦਿ ਵਿਕਾਰ ਵਿਨਾਸੇ ।[Reading and understanding] scriptural knowledge the intelligent ones destroy their ego and evil tendencies. ਪੁਨ ਕੇਚਿਤ ਨੀਚਨ ਕੋ ਵਹੁ ਬੋਧ ਮਦੈ ਅਭਿਮਾਨ ਵਿਕਾਰ ਨਿਵਾਸੇ ।However reading those same scriptures the foolish ones only enshrine ego and [other] vices within their heart. ਦੋਹਰਾ ।ਸਾਸਤ੍ਰ ਕਰਿ ਮਤ ਹਤ ਸੁਜਨ ਖਲ ਕੋ ਮਦ ਉਪਜੰਤ ।Reading scriptural knowledge, the intelligent one eliminates his ego, whereas the fool [only] increases his ego.ਜ੍ਯੋਂ ਦ੍ਰਿਗ ਭਾਨੁ ਪ੍ਰਕਾਸ਼ ਹ੍ਵੈ ਉਲੂ ਅੰਧ ਕਰੰਤ ।27।Just like the rising of the sun illuminates [the world], it also can blind the owl. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SikhKhoj Posted July 30, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 30, 2015 Great quote. I don't have quotes to describe you though; the more you read, the dumber you become... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted July 30, 2015 Report Share Posted July 30, 2015 I am dumb and I dont mind being dumb as i've never claimed to know everything. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SikhKhoj Posted July 30, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 30, 2015 No but really, scholars have not been able to locate more than a few manuscripts and all have 19th century dates on them (altough one claims to be a copy of an earlier MS of the 18th century but such things are always dubious). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 31, 2015 Report Share Posted July 31, 2015 I have faith, not blind faith.I believe Guru Nanak turned Mecca, and no the real Kaaba & not your mind or whatever crap missionaries invent. I believe in Naam Simran.You come across as a very enlightened soul, perhaps you can explain the wonderful miracle that was witnessed by so many shardaalus of Jheera Sahib ji when Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji Maharaj visited this region. I have to admit after reading all your comments regarding this topic you have a brilliant mind that works tirelessly twenty four hours of the day and seven days of the week to find out answers that leave you feeling so unsatisfied and unhappy. Search for the Truth by all means and I am sure no one is discouraging you in your wonderful adventure but you need to understand that by doing your daily simran and focusing on that One Truth you will eventually arrive at a treasury full of answers and when you have arrived there you will not be able to utter or type a single word because all your words would be usurped by that very One Reality/Truth that you are now so proudly declaring you do your simran of. There is nothing but tremendous Silence when you arrive there and all words fail. Good luck with your kintoo prantoos and ego that is dictating to you to prove to the world what a great researcher and intellectual you are. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 31, 2015 Report Share Posted July 31, 2015 I have faith, not blind faith.I believe Guru Nanak turned Mecca, and no the real Kaaba & not your mind or whatever crap missionaries invent. I believe in Naam Simran.I am positive you don't even know the difference between faith and 'blind faith' because your ego is now ruling you and you claim you do the naam simran. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SikhKhoj Posted July 31, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 31, 2015 Good good. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted August 26, 2021 Report Share Posted August 26, 2021 Adding extract from a McLeod article in which he finally (reluctantly too by the sounds of it) acknowledges his mistaken dating based on a UK scholar finding an old british translation of PS that dated to the early 1800s (by Dr. John Leyden). The original PS is likely to be older than the translation by some years. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted August 26, 2021 Report Share Posted August 26, 2021 Here's McLeod's full article (for those interested): McLeod_Review_Prem Sumarag.pdf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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