Guest Posted February 27, 2004 Report Share Posted February 27, 2004 Why does Guru Gobind Singh ji forbid marrying non-Sikhs when Guru Nanak ji doesnt? Noor can you please provide a quote from sggs or even janam sakhi's of where guroo nanak sahib nirankar said its ok to marry non-sikhs??? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amrikingh Posted February 27, 2004 Report Share Posted February 27, 2004 i don't think guru nanak states anything about its ok to marry a non sikh but i find a quote from Guru Raam Das Ji...........you as a sikh should marry a gurmukh Guru Raam Daas Ji in Raag Soohee on Pannaa 774 gurmuiK vIAwhix AwieAw ] guramukh veeaahan aaeiaa || He has come to marry the Gurmukh. vIAwhix AwieAw gurmuiK hir pwieAw sw Dn kMq ipAwrI ] veeaahan aaeiaa guramukh har paaeiaa saa dhhan ka(n)th piaaree || He has come to marry the Gurmukh, who has found the Lord. That bride is very dear to her Lord. sMq jnw imil mMgl gwey hir jIau Awip svwrI ] sa(n)th janaa mil ma(n)gal gaaeae har jeeo aap savaaree || The humble Saints join together and sing the songs of joy; the Dear Lord Himself has adorned the soul-bride. suir nr gx gMDrb imil Awey ApUrb jM bxweI ] sur nar gan ga(n)dhharab mil aaeae apoorab ja(n)n(j) banaaee || The angels and mortal beings, the heavenly heralds and celestial singers, have come together and formed a wondrous wedding party. nwnk pRBu pwieAw mY swcw nw kdy mrY n jweI ]4]1]3] naanak prabh paaeiaa mai saachaa naa kadhae marai n jaaee ||4||1||3|| O Nanak, I have found my True Lord God, who never dies, and is not born. ||4||1||3|| noor why would you marry a non sikh anyway (just saying, not saying u do),? what about future kids....one minute there in the mosque next minute there inda gurdwara proper confusion it makes more sense..............you been sikh since you were born, you were bought up with sikhs, you follow being a sikh....then why would you want a someone who is not sikh? the result of marrying a non sikh has major conflicts............something which ive seen which never works out even if it deos its not a very succesful output 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr §ingh Posted February 27, 2004 Report Share Posted February 27, 2004 Agreed with Amrik, you might say yes its discriminating, but hey, with whom will your spirituality best increase, with a Gursikh/Gurmukh or a Muslim, who's beliefs clash with yours, hence unable to pray together like a sangat like a married couple is suppose to do, in which scenareos do u benifit the most? bhull chukk maaf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noor Posted February 27, 2004 Report Share Posted February 27, 2004 My uncle is married to a Muslim.. and they go to the gurdwara together...their kids go to the gurdwara I see nothing wrong with Sikh and non-Sikh marriages. And I'm most certain that Guru Nanak ji, a man who taught people that there should be no discrimination amongst themselves, would not forbid a Sikh marrying a non-Sikh. Politics and society has changed Sikhism into another 'us vs them' religion. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr §ingh Posted February 28, 2004 Report Share Posted February 28, 2004 My uncle is married to a Muslim.. and they go to the gurdwara together...their kids go to the gurdwara I see nothing wrong with Sikh and non-Sikh marriages. And I'm most certain that Guru Nanak ji, a man who taught people that there should be no discrimination amongst themselves, would not forbid a Sikh marrying a non-Sikh. Politics and society has changed Sikhism into another 'us vs them' religion. AS long as theres no problems for the kids, and they follow SIKHI to the fullest....then again we gotta regard Guru Gobind SIngh ji's HUkam..Guru Nanak in 10th form Bhull chukk maaf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamuka Posted March 9, 2004 Report Share Posted March 9, 2004 Hey, I was just wondering, say if a sikh wanted to marry a non sikh, I think we need to ask ourselves here, what is Sikhi? Does it not mean seeker of truth? Sikhism was borne out of questioning certain false beliefs in Hinduism and Islam. So what is the truth here? A Sikh is in love with a non Sikh and wants to tie the knot. Should it be allowed? I personally think it should be ok. Is Sikhi about stupid 'restrictions'? Sikhi is about the TRUTH and there is NO truth in denying two people their happiness just because of what might the offspring's religion be. However this is only my opinion. Khalsa Soulja wrote Its perfectly alright in Sikhi to marry someone of another caste, culture, race, skin colour, or whatever else. But one of the 52 Hukams from Guru Gobind Singh is "Give your daughter to a house where Sikhi exists" and just before that it says "Do not give her to a clean shaven". The same thing applies to men obviously. Is this REALLY written in the SGGS? Its nothing to do with racism. Marry a black, white, yellow, pink, whatever over colour your want. Read the Guru Granth and it (constructively) criticises all religions for their acts. Guru Gobind Singh outright calls himself an "idol breaker" in Zafarnama and says "Hindus have set up false religions" I think in Chaupai. Guru Nanak often talks about how Halal and circumcision are just plain WRONG......and theres even a shabad showing how Adam and Eve theory makes no sense. What has this got to do with marriage? Didn't Raja Ranjit Singh himself married Hindus and Muslims? But must agree he was corrupt because of his close cooperation with the Hindus and Muslims. This is why the Sikh kingdom did not survive. Do you think Guru Gobind Singh would marry a Muslim or Hindu? Would Baba Deep Singh come home after a long day of battering Mughals to his Christian wife What if the Christian woman has a good heart and truly loves Baba Deep Singh? Wasn't Guru Nanaks cohort Mardana a Muslim to the very end?Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Bhai Khanaya himself serve water to the fallen enemies of Sikhs after a fight and our Guru proclaimed this was a good act? I think I'm beggining to understand what you're trying to get at. i) Marry a Sikh and you have no problems religion wise as your offspring will more likely be Sikhs as well. ii) Marry a Non Sikh for example a Hindu and your children might grow up with some influence from Hinduism and they may start revering to statues. In short the offsprings of a Sikh-Non Sikh parent may be 'contaminated' with ritualistic stupid beliefs? Khalsa Soulja you may have a point. Khandaydhaar wrote I'll let u know dat india is not a fake country and how u so disrespectingly said that india can kiss ur as*, dnt u realise dat india is a blessed land cuz our Gurus were born there on da land????? dont u realise dat? And abt sikh marriages, if u have strong roots for sikhi den ud probably wana marry a sikh like ureself, simple as dat. Prior to 1947 there never was such a civilization/country called India. It never existed. There was Punjab,Gujarat,Tamil Nadu....but there NEVER was an India. Dear Khandaydhaar, very much true... as simple as that... Why do you support a lie? FYI your beloved Hindoooo India does not recognize Sikhism as a separate religion. They claim all the Gurus were reincarnates of Vishnu. You are only stabbing yourself in the back when you support a lie. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr §ingh Posted March 9, 2004 Report Share Posted March 9, 2004 Does it not mean seeker of truth? Can we take everything litteraly? if so then an athiet is also a Sikh..ofcourse that doesn't me he follows the Sikh RELIGION does it ? Is this REALLY written in the SGGS? Does it really matter, if it does? is it not enough that Guru Gobind Singh ji said it ? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noor Posted March 10, 2004 Report Share Posted March 10, 2004 "Does it really matter, if it does?" Course it matters.. if someone was a true Sikh then they wouldnt try to divide the world up even more than it already is... wasnt that one of the main purposes of Guru Nanak ji anyways? To get rid of the caste system.. that one is neither a hindu nor a muslim.. that we are all God's children n then you have other Sikhs tellin u who u can and cannot marry..why? Because their of a different religion.. a different path to God. To me thats contradicting earlier teachings.. and if its the direction in which Sikhism is heading, than Sikhism will be no different than Islam or any other religion... it will only divide.. not unite people. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr §ingh Posted March 10, 2004 Report Share Posted March 10, 2004 "Does it really matter, if it does?" Course it matters.. if someone was a true Sikh then they wouldnt try to divide the world up even more than it already is... wasnt that one of the main purposes of Guru Nanak ji anyways? To get rid of the caste system.. that one is neither a hindu nor a muslim.. that we are all God's children True but the question was whether it was from Dhan Dhan Sri Guru GRAnth SAhib ji or not it doesn't matter! if it IS Guru Gobind SIngh ji's Hukam then isn't it FULL STOP? n then you have other Sikhs tellin u who u can and cannot marry..why? Because their of a different religion.. a different path to God. yea, ans whats that Good for? having confuse children saying - 'I'm a half Muslim and a half Sikh', 'my Mother is muslim my father is Sikh' 'Yes sometimes we go to the Mosque sometimes we go t the Gurdwara' You can't follow two religions at the same time especially if they COntradict :!: To me thats contradicting earlier teachings.. and if its the direction in which Sikhism is heading, than Sikhism will be no different than Islam or any other religion... it will only divide.. not unite people. Why not, Muslims are ou brothers, so are Hindus, and Christians, we don't agree with them but they've got ther right to follow right? we can't force them to convert..can we.... -------------------------- Yes uniting all mankind Is the Point, but how is it possibel if they believe in something TOTALLY different to us ? bhull chukk maaf GurFateh 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noor Posted March 11, 2004 Report Share Posted March 11, 2004 By being respectful and accepting of their beliefs Like what would you do if tomorrow your son or daughter decides to follow a different religion..not because they are romantically involved with someone of that religion..but just because it appeals to them? I know you will say 'How can that be possible if I teach my kid everything about Sikhi? Why would anyone want to convert?" But be realistic and you know it can happen. Your son could find Buddhism more appealing.. or maybe Islam because in certain ways its more man dominated.. wutever the religion may be.. wut to do then? Each person should worry more about themselves following a path to God correctly rather than in which way another is doing it.. even if that person may be related to you I mean doesnt it say in Sikhi that we shouldnt be too attached to material things and people in our lives because in the end none of it will go on with us.. we will go alone So yes teach your children about Sikhi.. and hopefully they will follow it.. but theres nothing you can do if they dont..cept maybe pray that they change their ways And thats why I believe it shouldnt matter if the person you marry is of a different religion.. you cant have a kid grow up in a religion.. the kid needs to believe it with his/her heart.. only then thru learning it on their own because they want to.. will they be following Sikhism I know sum people from different parts of the world who were born as Sikhs but are now either atheist, converts, or claim to be Sikhs yet dont really follow it. (Sorry for making that so long.. n if it went a lil off topic :? .. I love Sikhi..and am trying to follow it s best as I can... but I dont like hate amongst religions and division amongst ppl in any way just because of religion) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr §ingh Posted March 12, 2004 Report Share Posted March 12, 2004 By being respectful and accepting of their beliefs Like what would you do if tomorrow your son or daughter decides to follow a different religion..not because they are romantically involved with someone of that religion..but just because it appeals to them? I know you will say 'How can that be possible if I teach my kid everything about Sikhi? Why would anyone want to convert?" But be realistic and you know it can happen. Your son could find Buddhism more appealing.. or maybe Islam because in certain ways its more man dominated.. wutever the religion may be.. wut to do then? I wouldn't force hgim to follow Sikhism I'd give him a chiose - Stay in SIkhism or ur being 'CHATKA' Sorry - on a mroe serious note, erm yea I mean I'd respect it, yea I'd obviously try my best to explain both faiths with the knowledge I have, and Would ask him the reason for his decition etc.. Each person should worry more about themselves following a path to God correctly rather than in which way another is doing it.. even if that person may be related to you yepp you're rght, but as parents its OUR DUTY to get out Kids on Gods path . Lets see what GUru jee tells us - THis is the HUkamnama of 10 March (10/03 2004) - JAITSREE, FOURTH MEHL: The Lord’s Name does not abide within their hearts — their mothers should have been sterile. These bodies wander around, forlorn and abandoned, without the Name; their lives waste away, and they die, crying out in pain. || 1 || O my mind, chant the Name of the Lord, the Lord within you. The Merciful Lord God, Har, Har, has showered me with His Mercy; the Guru has imparted spiritual wisdom to me, and my mind has been instructed. || Pause || In this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, the Kirtan of the Lord’s Praise brings the most noble and exalted status; the Lord is found through the True Guru. I am a sacrifice to my True Guru, who has revealed the Lord’s hidden Name to me. || 2 || By great good fortune, I obtained the Blessed Vision of the Darshan of the Holy; it removes all stains of sin. I have found the True Guru, the great, all-knowing King; He has shared with me the many Glorious Virtues of the Lord. || 3 || Those, unto whom the Lord, the Life of the world, has shown Mercy, enshrine Him within their hearts, and cherish Him in their minds. The Righteous Judge of Dharma, in the Court of the Lord, has torn up my papers; servant Nanak’s account has been settled. || 4 || 5 || Wednesday 28th Phalgun (Samvat 535 Nanakshahi) (Page : 697) What is the use of living, without naam? its all waste of time. I mean doesnt it say in Sikhi that we shouldnt be too attached to material things and people in our lives because in the end none of it will go on with us.. we will go alone theres difference between attraction and preaching :? .. I don't think i get you here :? So yes teach your children about Sikhi.. and hopefully they will follow it.. but theres nothing you can do if they dont..cept maybe pray that they change their ways yep, but IF you DO bring up your kids in the Path of Sikhi, they not gonna even THINK ABout leaving it If you tell a Kid about, just ONE OR TWO Sakhis about the Sikh Shaheeds, the Shaheedia we're had.. the Shaheedia for THEM, they get into SOO much BIRRAS, I can't describe it in words I was listening to a Katha, where they said 'Tusi aapne Baache nu Jap ji Sikhado, oou hor kise Dharm vaaal MO vi nahi karega' And thats why I believe it shouldnt matter if the person you marry is of a different religion.. you cant have a kid grow up in a religion.. the kid needs to believe it with his/her heart.. only then thru learning it on their own because they want to.. will they be following Sikhism I know sum people from different parts of the world who were born as Sikhs but are now either atheist, converts, or claim to be Sikhs yet dont really follow it. useless isn't it, read above shabad (Sorry for making that so long.. n if it went a lil off topic :? .. I love Sikhi..and am trying to follow it s best as I can... but I dont like hate amongst religions and division amongst ppl in any way just because of religion) a Bhenji of mine, form this board said the following once - A Path is like a stream, some are blocked, some flow faster, some flow slower. why are they blocked? because with time, they've gootten blind rituals etc sorry for mkaing this post long bhull chukk maaf GurFateh 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Punjabi Nationalist Posted March 12, 2004 Report Share Posted March 12, 2004 Noor, by all means, please marry someone of your choice. You are right in saying that it doesnt matter what religon the other person is. Your religious beliefs should be kept private as they are personal to you. There is no need to throw them around in everyones face, even if other people are doing that themselves. WHy follow the heard? Be an individual and make your own choices.. I've read a few of your posts and agree with alot of what you say. I think you have the same liberal approach and outlook on life as i do. Sikhism is not a revealed religion, and it does not need to be. Just be true to yourself and to others. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamuka Posted March 12, 2004 Report Share Posted March 12, 2004 Sikhism is not a revealed religion, and it does not need to be. Just be true to yourself and to others. Amen to that! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaNaDiAn_jAtTi Posted March 13, 2004 Report Share Posted March 13, 2004 I completely have to agree with Noor Bhenji here... And she's pointed out everything.... One can only guidd their children not force... And I have to tell u, that i may not be amritdhari yet, but i'm on my way slowly and God knows where i'll end up, but i had to take a deep reflection within myself to see whether or not Sikhi was rite for me, cuz although my parents brought me up as a sikh, I just wasn't sure, because living in a country where there are more christians than sikhs, one tends to wonder as a child, why r my beliefs so different. And it's easy enuf for one to tell sakhis about Shaheeds and all, but a child really doesn't understand the full meaning behind it, to them it's just a story, thas all... and to me I would love to see my child grow up learning about the world and the different cultures and religions and truly understanding the beauty of what God has created, rather than blindly following what i believe in... And anyways, Jo likhiya, so likhiya.... one cannot escape what's been written for them, is that not so? hukmee hovan aakaar hukam naa kahi-aa jaa-ee hukmee hovan jee-a hukam milai vadi-aa-ee hukmee utam neech hukam likh dukh sukh paa-ee-ahi iknaa hukmee bakhsees ik hukmee sadaa bhavaa-ee-ahi. hukmai andar sab ko baahar hukam naa ko-i. naanak hukmai jay bujhai taa humai kahai naa ko-i. ||2|| Then who are we to question what is happening to us... That shabad clearly states that all is happening because of His divine law... One's aim should be to follow what they feel is rite for them at the moment and focus on how to live their life....not others.... And if a person such as myself is condemned to wander aimlessly in this life, then that is a fact I cannot escape, all i can do is do my simrin and be a good human being 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr §ingh Posted March 13, 2004 Report Share Posted March 13, 2004 I was reading the Youth Q & A section on SIkhnet. Looks what I poped through - waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ke fateh... I am a 19 year old sikh woman and i do consider myself to be religious. I follow things which i understand and believe is right such as doing my paat going to the gurdwara and doing sewa etc, although i do cut my hair. I have been with my boyfriend for 1 and a half years and he is muslim. Our relationship has been an on-off relationship because of the hassles we get for having different beliefs and choosing different ways of praying. He has never not once asked me to convert to his religion and tells me he appreciates the way i believe some things so strongly about my religion. The problem is we just got engaged a month ago and i don't know if i should go through with the marriage or if my religion will allow me to? So many people are against us being together just because we hold different beliefs...especially my family. I hate lieing to my family but i feel as though im forced to do so when it comes to him. I love him so much i feel like im torn between him and the rest of the world. What i don't understand is that out guru's made it so clear that we are all equal in God's eyes.So why can't sikhs and muslims still not be seen as equal in everyone's eyes? We don't want to marry until another three years and i am upsetting him and myself by worrying sick about whether my guru would allow this to happen or not. Could you please advise me in whether or not it is actually allowed-marrying a muslim-or not. Would anyone be willing to marry us in a gurdwara because that is the only place i would ever want to get married. Is there anyone i could directly speak to in London or Southampton about gettin married to a muslim in a gurdwara? Thankyou so much for your time... ---- Take the emotions out of your decision. Sit down with your self and think about what is really important to you in relation to your religion and marriage. For example, does it matter to you that you and your husband will not pray together? Does it matter to you that you will celebrate different holidays? How will you raise the children? Love is more than attraction and "chemistry" between two people. After you have thoroughly thought this out, discuss it all with your fiance. How does he feel about these things? I'm not saying that you can't work these things out, but its better to discuss it now before you marry. Don't be in an illusion. The decision you make will be with you for your life. Conflict erases love faster than anything. If you can work it out, go to one of the Gurdwaras in London and ask if you can be married there. Don't base your decision on what others think, but you must be realistic and practicle. Blessings, GTKK http://www.sikhnet.com/sikhnet/youth.nsf/b...5400531fc0?Open BAsically I think its a good response bhull chukk maaf GurFAteh 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 13, 2004 Report Share Posted March 13, 2004 By being respectful and accepting of their beliefs Like what would you do if tomorrow your son or daughter decides to follow a different religion..not because they are romantically involved with someone of that religion..but just because it appeals to them? I know you will say 'How can that be possible if I teach my kid everything about Sikhi? Why would anyone want to convert?" But be realistic and you know it can happen. Your son could find Buddhism more appealing.. or maybe Islam because in certain ways its more man dominated.. wutever the religion may be.. wut to do then? Each person should worry more about themselves following a path to God correctly rather than in which way another is doing it.. even if that person may be related to you I mean doesnt it say in Sikhi that we shouldnt be too attached to material things and people in our lives because in the end none of it will go on with us.. we will go alone So yes teach your children about Sikhi.. and hopefully they will follow it.. but theres nothing you can do if they dont..cept maybe pray that they change their ways And thats why I believe it shouldnt matter if the person you marry is of a different religion.. you cant have a kid grow up in a religion.. the kid needs to believe it with his/her heart.. only then thru learning it on their own because they want to.. will they be following Sikhism I know sum people from different parts of the world who were born as Sikhs but are now either atheist, converts, or claim to be Sikhs yet dont really follow it. (Sorry for making that so long.. n if it went a lil off topic :? .. I love Sikhi..and am trying to follow it s best as I can... but I dont like hate amongst religions and division amongst ppl in any way just because of religion) Lets see here Noor Ji, Sikhi has principles. Principles are there for khalsa to follow. One of the principles for khalsa to follow is "get married with person who is gurmukh and has gurmantar given by paanj pyraiez and also took amrit from khanda bhatta da amrit". Please do not change sikhi beleifs to suit your own beleifs. But try to change yourself. Main aim of khalsa is to meet paratma and merge with him. In order to do that khalsa must have that yearning and ocean of biraag (emotions) and love towards vaheguroo (sargun saroop). If thats not your aim, then gurbani says no point being a human because other things animal can also do. Human birth only has ability to meet god. As gurbani mentions, Eho Tari Vari aa Gobind Millan Di Oh Human, this is your only chance to meet god (Guroo Arjan Dev Ji) First principle is to enroll in a spirtual school (take amrit) and then as state of mind develops you can pursue spirtual career. Its same as college or university. Have you ever seen a person without goin to college or university they get their diploma or degree?? No. Same rule applies here where guroo maharaj has said" "If you wish to play game of love, come to me with your head on your palm of your hand" Guroo nanak sahib nirankar If you look at our sant/mahatma's (both male and female) they were even number of celibate and married ones. But even they were married ones with amrit-dhari bibiya. They still have to tyaag(give up) their gristh jeevan at some point in their life as in spending more time towards bhagti than with the spouse. And look at ourselves, we are fighting over that it shouldnt matter if you are married outside of your relegion. Its lot easier to just say that couple will respect each other beleif. Likely, it will not be case. When you look at white sikh converts. Most of them converts are married. When they take amrit they are encouraged to bring their wifes, husbands as well to get baptised in khalsa way of life. They dont pay attention to it very much. Then they end having divorced with their spouse because of the clash of beleifs (ie- one is atheist, other is christian, muslim , hindu). I m not sayin its not possible to pursue your spirtual career if you are not married with some one amrit-dhari as being amrit-dhari yourself. All i am saying is that marg is not recommended by our guroo maharaj's and sant mahapursh. All we as seevadars can do show you the marg that guroo maharaj choosed for us and where sant/mahatama's applied that marg in their daily lives and leave us inspiration to do the same..rest is up to you!!! Noor Ji, do let us know about your married life with a non-sikh. Its beleif you choose. Not the guroo maharaj or rest of khalsa panth choose for you. Always remember that, being on this site. We should be careful about not changin rehat maryada or principles of khalsa panth to suit one's beleif though change our beleif's to suit the principles that our guroo maharaj choose for us. Bhul Chuk maaf Akaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaal hiiiiiiiiii akaaaaaaaaaaal anand hiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii anand 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noor Posted March 14, 2004 Report Share Posted March 14, 2004 Mr Singh.. yes that was a good response. Lets see here Noor Ji, Sikhi has principles. Principles are there for khalsa to follow. One of the principles for khalsa to follow is "get married with person who is gurmukh and has gurmantar given by paanj pyraiez and also took amrit from khanda bhatta da amrit". Please do not change sikhi beleifs to suit your own beleifs. But try to change yourself. So who do I marry then if I havent taken amrit? According to such strict principles I wouldnt be considered a Sikh. So where does that leave me? If I believe in Waheguru..believe in the ten gurus and go to the gurdwara.. but believe that people should be treated equally and religion shouldnt matter in marriage.. what does that make me? I've been told by amritdhari Sikhs before too that I wouldnt be considered a Sikh.. but I say who gives them the right to tell me that.. just because they are more religious than me? But doesnt God reside in all of us.. after all he did create all of us .. Noor Ji, do let us know about your married life with a non-sikh. Its beleif you choose. Not the guroo maharaj or rest of khalsa panth choose for you. Always remember that, being on this site. We should be careful about not changin rehat maryada or principles of khalsa panth to suit one's beleif though change our beleif's to suit the principles that our guroo maharaj choose for us. Bhul Chuk maaf Akaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaal hiiiiiiiiii akaaaaaaaaaaal anand hiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii anand I am not marrying a non-sikh :? . In fact I am not getting married to anyone as of now and not until a few years. I was discussing my views on the topic of marrying a non-sikh.. which i think is perfectly alrite. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noor Posted March 14, 2004 Report Share Posted March 14, 2004 Noor, by all means, please marry someone of your choice. You are right in saying that it doesnt matter what religon the other person is. Your religious beliefs should be kept private as they are personal to you. There is no need to throw them around in everyones face, even if other people are doing that themselves. WHy follow the heard? Be an individual and make your own choices.. I've read a few of your posts and agree with alot of what you say. I think you have the same liberal approach and outlook on life as i do. Sikhism is not a revealed religion, and it does not need to be. Just be true to yourself and to others. Totally agree with that. Sad thing is that... I cant marry who I want. My family tho they are a bit open minded when it comes to the guys, wont let the girls marry anyone but "jatt" Sikhs. And me being someone who believes neither in the caste system nor in marrying ONLY into your own religion bit, is stuck without much choice. But thnx for the above... Its nice to know that someone thinks on the same lines as me CaNaDiAn_jAtTi .. thnx 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr §ingh Posted March 14, 2004 Report Share Posted March 14, 2004 hmm when reading the following, you think tha above post doesn't make ANY SENSE - http://forums.waheguroo.com/index.php?act=ST&f=2&t=3562&hl= ------------- I recommend you read the WHOLE POST, its just great bhull chukk maaf GUrFATeh 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BabbarSher Posted March 14, 2004 Report Share Posted March 14, 2004 I had sometime ago heard of a quote from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji which I am giving below: It is by Guru Amar Dass Ji and he gives a definition of Husband and Wife: mÚ 3 ] Third Mehl: mÚ 3 ] mehlaa 3. Dn ipru eyih n AwKIAin bhin iekTy hoie ] They are not said to be husband and wife, who merely sit together. Dn ip{ Eih n AwKIAin bhin ekTy hoe ] Dhan pir ayhi na aakhee-an bahan ikthay ho-ay. eyk joiq duie mUrqI Dn ipru khIAY soie ]3] They alone are called husband and wife, who have one light in two bodies. ||3|| Ek joiq due mUrqI Dn ip{ khIEy soe ]3] ayk jot du-ay moortee Dhan pir kahee-ai so-ay. ||3|| As you can see.....in the light of Gurbaani, Husband and Wife are one light in two bodies. Such is the relationship advocated by Gurbaani. Now when we talk about inter-religious marriages, I am of the opinion that it is tough to have the relationship advocated above. The reasone being that religion is to do with the spirit. It has to do with the belief, with the faith. Lets take an example of different religions. I would like to ask you a few questions and ascertain for your self the truth of whether religions differ ! 1. Jews: Who according to Judaism is a true Jew ? What is the ultimate word of God ? Is God jealous of the other dieties ? What are the qualities of God ? Who is entitiled to meet God? 2. Christians: Who is the only son of God? Who is our only saviour in this world? Since Christianity is all about love (like Christians say) OR do we have to go to this saviour still ? Who is entitiled to meet God? 3. Muslims: What is the perfect religion? Who is the best and the ultimate prophet of God? Can we be saved through any other prophet? What do we have to say to meet God ..kalim? Is it ok to just praise God..and love our fellow human beings ...or do we need to do anything more than that? 4. Buddhism: Is there any God? If not what is the purpose of our existence? If we are not going to meet him because u are silent on this issue....whats the prpose of living a good life.....we might as well freak out each time we come back through reincarnation? Whatever the answers, you will realise that all the above mentioned religions are different in their views Sikhism is on the other hand a unifying religion. Why ? Because the Gurus choose not to mock the other religions before them? They only criticised the stupid practices of these religions. The Gurus instead of focussing on converting, asked these people to delve into their religion and go into the spirtual aspect and practise it, keeping their faith in their prophets. Those who thought that the sharan of the Guru was required were welcomed and they were the sikhs. The sikhs were transformed, slowly into the Khalsa..perfect human being. Please note that the Khalsa formation was done gradually, not all of s sudden, and that it is this form that all of us as sikhs,non-sikhs must strive to reach. I would say that even if you have not taken Amrit and become a Khalsa, you are a sikh, if everyday you strive to become khalsa ..one day ... having said the above, I would ask you to analyse the above quotation I provided from Guru Granth Sahib. Isnt it highlighted that marriage is more than just a physical meetig of the 2 bodies, that it goes down to the spirit. How then can a person cope with the spirtual differences within and become one in spirit. You can only become one in spirit with your husband if you have same ideology, same spirtual thinking, same beliefs. Otherwise, it will always be physical and will always amount to physical things. And by physical I dont jUST MEAN sex...but daily things like reciting Asa Di Vaar---in front of a muslim husband (as you know Asa di Vaar critices such core beliefs of muslim like .....belief in Judgement Day etc.) or reciting Waheguru in fron ot a Buddhist husband or mentioning in fron of him 'Man Preet charan kamla re' ...OR for that matter deciding on petty things/pratcices like circumcision etc. It could also be that when the Muslim husband says .."La Ilaha ....Muhamm Ul Rasool ....".....Would your mind accept that? I dont know...life is al about making choices...it is all about taking decisions....it is all about sacrifices, that we have to make..that we need to make. i dont know what type of relationship a girl may have with a boy...what amount of love she may feel for a boy.....BUT beliive me in 27 years of my life and experience in more than 4 countries, I havent noted true love between a boy and girl before marriage. True Love only exists after marriage, after you discover each other, not before and even after marriage only a handful come to know what love is. Why isnt it funny that I find that in our generation 'true' love comes to the fore after seeing the handsomeness/beauty of the person, that after seeing the social standing of the person .....why dont boys/girls fall in love with 'not so nice looking' people of the opposite sex....very poor.. Well if it is not about physical attraction, it is about mental qualities..(he/she is nice, kind, humouros etc.) I think love ..and true love transcends all this ..cause if I were to analyse...one can loose mental or physical traits in a second....well even less than a second. Will LOve remain ? Yes if it is true.....cause then u love at a spirtual level and that is the level at which saints love God.... (remember u never loose the spirit). The choice is upto you... if you want to go for the guy you love, please go.....but remember that you made that choice, remember that you are leaving the House of the Guru........ not association with God....for you may find God in the other religion....... Now it is up to you whether you consider this choice to be worth it.....to leave the Gurus for a guy. Remember that you are being selfish. (yes thats true ,though it may sound a bit blunt) .......dont try to give explanations or justifications, because there are none. You asked a simple question and a simple answer is that it is not ok for a sikh girl to marry a nonsikh boy....and vice a versa... and for that matter any interreligion marriage. It is ok if either of them converts to other religion. Sometimes I wonder, what would have happened, if our Gurus had been as selfish as we are (please note I am including myself...in the category selfish)...........well Guru Arjan Dev ji for once could have saved his life. Guru Gobind Singh Ji his father, Bhai mani Singh Ji his life. The Chotte Sahibzaade could have got muslim girls as their wives and all the riches in the world...and Guru Gobind Singh ji wouldnt have to look at the Khalsa and say.......................... In Putran Ke Sees pe Vaar Diye sut chaar chaar muye to kya huya, jeevat kayi hazaar. I am not trying ti make you emotional..because I have realised that people are intelligent enuff ..so that they cannot be made emotional if they dont want to be Remember it is all about choices in life....Make a choice, accept it and remember that YOU made it, and toy have to live with it and bear the consequences. As far as caste, is concerned.....there is absolutely nothing wrng with inetr caste marriges except compatibility on a pure cultural level which can be worked out ....because the spirit can still be one. Sorry if I was too blunt. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Punjabi Nationalist Posted March 14, 2004 Report Share Posted March 14, 2004 Totally agree with that. Sad thing is that... I cant marry who I want. My family tho they are a bit open minded when it comes to the guys, wont let the girls marry anyone but "jatt" Sikhs. And me being someone who believes neither in the caste system nor in marrying ONLY into your own religion bit, is stuck without much choice. But thnx for the above... Its nice to know that someone thinks on the same lines as me Well theres someone for everyone (Talking about mentality here). Caste also means nothing to me, and oddly it means little or nothing to my family. I say oddly because your family is Sikh and my immediate family is Punjabi Hindu. Im aware of both mentality, Sikh and Punjabi Hindu, i have to say that in my observation Jatts are the only ones who have some kind of choke-hold on caste and refuse to let go of it. Whats worring is that before i began embracing Sikhism and taking more of an interest in Sikh society, history and politcs (As opposed to general Punjabi/Punjabiyat) i had no idea what a "Jatt" or "Tharkan" was. I dont understand this love for being a "Jatt" for two reasons: 1) Sikhism is crystal clear on caste. 2) A Jatt is a low caste Hindu, so why the hell would anyone want to hold on to this artificial title? My parents are of different "caste" and it did not matter when they were married. My father doesnt even know the full history of his families "caste". We have a gotra saying we are Punjabi Khatris but he seems to think one of our ancestors was a mid or low ranking Punjabi Rajput (Our family name overlaps between Punjabi Rajputs and Khatris) who settled down and became a Khatri... I have no idea how all this works out or what it even means to be a Khatri or a Rajput. People will say a Khatri is involved in trade or business and a Rajput is a soldier. Well a Rajput is also a self-professed Raja who would sooner sleep with his sister than marry a so-called "low-caste" (Incest between cousins happens among Rajasthani Rajputs). Rajputs are also bandits, looters, and murderous. Going by these, for all i know my ancestor could have been an ex foot-soldier who roamed around the hills in a gang looting people as they went pass, or killing them even. Then one day decided to settle down and start some kind of trade or business. Being a Khatri, he could have been a loan-shark who killed and extorted people for money, or maybe he was one of those "Satanic Khatris" :lol: Ok, im not saying thats what background i come from, but digging up some negative stereotypes of those two castes it may very well be true. Either way (Postive traits or Negative) i dont want to be identified with these fake things. Caste takes away the individuality of a person and makes others automatically assume that you act and behave in a way depending on what "caste" you belong to. It is also separates people who are bound together by common ethnicity, language, culture and even religion. Caste is the perfect tool for divide and conquer it seems. Dont take any offence as i dont mean to be critical of your parents but there is no justification for any Sikh to arrange a marriage for there kids on the basis of caste. There is nothing for Jatts to be proud of (Or any other caste). Jatts are often ridiculed and are detested wherever they live. Ok, maybe not in Jalandhar or Ludhiana where all "Jatts" i have met seem to have immigrated from but where i come from (Majha/Pakistan) Jatts are not common and are not respected. A person who identifies as just being a Sikh on the other hand would have no problems (Even if his forefathers were Jatts). Let me just make one last point about caste. The biggest idiots among these so-called "Jatts" are the ones who beg the Indian and state governments for job reservations and other special treatment claiming that they are "owed them" because they belong to a "backwards and schedule caste" (Can you believe the audacity and shamelessness?). The same "Jatts" will then claim to be "high-castes" and start abusing groups like Charmas/Tharkhans by exploiting them and boycotting certain Gurdwaras or functions organized by these people. What a joke.. All in all, you will never progress if you are tied down to caste and false loyalty to this social construct which has no place in the modern World and especially no place in a non-Hindu community. A Sikh will always be treated with respect and as an individual, a Jatt will always be treated the way in which people perceive members of that "caste" to be... Regards, (Sorry this was long and hope you are not offended) ----------------------------------- And bout all this crap that you guys are on about Sikh and non-Sikh marriages and the problems they lead to... well I'm telling you they work cuz I've seen them work. Of course they work. You know that before the political divide between Sikhs and Hindus of Punjab after things like Punjabi Suba agitation and movement for Khalistan etc interfaith marriage between Sikhs and Hindus in Punjab was as common as Sikh-Sikh or Hindu-Hindu marriages. Both parties managing to keep their faith. Again before political divide of Sikhs/Hindus many Punjabi Hindu families had one of their sons become an amritdhari Sikh. I have examples of this in my own family. No conflict of religions there... But man I stand by my views and if in the end theyre wrong then I'll have to answer for them, but I have enough faith in what I believe to do so. Exactly. Dont get many of the forumers here wrong, they are only trying to be helpful. But at the end of the day people should understand that you also have a brain of your own and are quite capable of making independent decision which you know are the best for you. Not everyone is ultra-religious... ^ I believe that the 'jatt' issue doesnt matter as much to my parents personally as does the issue of what other Sikhs (society) may think if their daughter was to marry a non-jatt. Well then this is just outrageous that other Sikhs will chat sh*t about your family if you were to marry someone who was not a "Jatt". Honestly, not to be offensive but before i was drawn to Sikhism i had no idea about all this Jatt and Charmar nonsense. All i knew of Jatts is that they were a peasant Hindu caste, either farmers or small time landowners, and where we come from they are not common and they are not respected (Not saying this is right). Now my interest in Sikhism has become more than just an interest in the religion i find out that there are plenty of Sikhs who practice caste, and worse still, people even lie about their "caste". Eg, you have lunatic Jatts claiming to be a warrior race who came from Scandinavia or Mars or someplace and you have Charmars who are ashamed of calling themselves 'Charmar' so they make up their own caste called "Tharkhans". (Which is not even a caste but a trade...). What a joke... They seem to care too much of what others will think, and it annoys me but I cant change anything.. can only make sure that when I have kids I dont do the same thing. Yeah i know what you mean. My mom is like that, always worried about what "other people" think of her son, who looks like "terrorist" or Muslim with dari and patka etc :lol: See thats the thing. Where I live there are loads of Sikhs.. but none of them have ever told me that I'm not a Sikh. But according to members of this forum, I dont think they would qualify to be called Sikhs because only half of them are amritdhari. And you know what the funniest thing is, an amritdhari Sikh looking down on you and then next contradicting his whole belief by making a comment that supports the caste system. :roll: True. I dont know who the Niranjana guy is :? ..but I like yours and Lalleshvari's views. Theyre quite similar to mine. Well he seems pretty moderate intelligent guy from what i have seen of his postings. I say you can learn from those two because they are quite knowledgeable on Sikhism and also other religions. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noor Posted March 14, 2004 Report Share Posted March 14, 2004 ^ Its k and no you didnt offend me. I think along the same lines. BabbarSher - I just wanted to point out AGAIN that there isnt a non-sikh guy that I'm leaving Sikhism for :roll: I was asking in general... and I understand all the points you've all made.. but I still stand by my belief of it being alrite Mr Singh - "From what i have read from you folks, that one is only considered a Sikh ONLY if he/she has taken Amrit. " There is no doubt about it. There is a Bhaji Gurdas Ji's shabad that says that only he/she has the right to call him/herself a Sikh has taken Gurmatr from the Guru. As Sikhs, Gurmantr is given to us by 5 payare, and therefore, we have to take Amrit. That is Bhai Gurdas Ji's definition of a Sikh. ^ Its stuff like this that sometimes makes me wonder why I'm practicing Sikhi when I am not even considered a Sikh. But yet still I believe so it doesnt matter what people say, still gets to me once in a while tho. Have any of you people that think this way, ever thought that when you make statements like the one that guy made above, it makes some people on the path of Sikhi want to turn away from it? Then you wonder why there are atheists in Sikh families. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BabbarSher Posted March 15, 2004 Report Share Posted March 15, 2004 Sikhi is a SuperHighway and travelling on this Superhighway, you reach the city of the Khalsa ...whereafter you meet Waheguru. Firstly I fully understand that you are not marrying a a non-sikh, as you had mentioned the same in one of yor earlier posts. Perhaps I have a possiveness about the gals of my religion :-) Secondly, I have tried to proove that inter religion marriages are not 'right', because of differences in religions on various respects. I think it is true. You say that you stand by what you say. Good. But can you please answer the issues and the possible solutions to what I said in my post? (Done give me the obvious answer ..that Love can transcend all barriers) Dont be disheartened, Mr.Singh's or my heart may be a bit small to accomodate a lot of people into Sikhi, but the Guru's and Waheguru's heart is very large. I dont agree with the translation provided by Mr.Singh. One cannot take Amrit by force, the feeling has to come from within. Continue on this path and evolve. Like I said, a sikh must continually evolve into a better person, and then he is a sikh, because he is learning the teachings of his Guru and acting on them. Evolving is the key word here. A person may be a mona at birth, keep hair whne young and take amrit when he/she is 40. So does it make he/she a sikh. Definately does, cause they evolved. On the other hand a person may be born a kehsadhari, become a mona or remain like that. I dont think such a person qualifies to be a sikh. Some people may take amrit but may keep believing in Bipran Ki Reet? What of them.....?? Nothing of them I would say... Nothing Various such permutations can combinations may be worked out and some may be very tricky situations. But in the end it is for the Guru to decide and for Waheguru to decide on the question if sikhi, who sits in every persons heart....we can only give pointers In effect when we have read the Guru Granth Sahib Ji and have understood it, our conscience will ourselves give an answer, whether we are sikh or not. and belive me you cant fool your consicence. My suggestion as always is to read your Guru. Please dont treat Guru Granth Sahib as just a Holy Book. Guru Ji is our present and eternal Guru. Please have the same feelings for Guru Ji as you would for Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj. Do so and the Guru will guide you ...Please give it a try :-) N30 Singh ...Very Good :-) excellent explanation 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BabbarSher Posted March 18, 2004 Report Share Posted March 18, 2004 Umpteenth time you say it is not about you and some guy from other religion and umpteenth time we say, that we are NOT addresseing you from the point of view of ' you and some other religion guy'. Now it would be good to address the whole post which I have made, and answer the questions I have raised. I quote from Guru Granth Sahib Ji. I am not talking about your physical life. Yes, on a physical level marriages may work, for that matter marrriages may work altogether, BUT the issue addressed was the spirtual one. If your spirtual beliefs are different from your husband, then can you continue with your spirtual beliefs knowing that your husband doesnt beliEve in them. I will not raise the amrit issue, but just ask you whether you belive in Baani. If you do, you must have read Asa Di Vaar. If you have read it than what would you say, about certain muslim concepts that have been criticised. What about Bhagat Kabir Ji's Baani which criticises Circumcision and other muslim practices. What about the Baani which condemns idolatory ? What sort of relationship would be looking at in such a case, where a girl loves her husband, but doesnt share her beliefs? In effect she shares and is one with her husband mentally and physically BUT Not spirtually, because this does not gel with the defination of Husband and wife as given in the baani of Guru Amar Dass Ji. So the crux is that such marriages work mentally and physically not at a spirtual level. And to a sikh spirtuality is more important and he strives to meet his Husband..Waheguru. And if the husband and wife are one at a spirtual level, the spirtual journey can be a bliss and easy to tread upon, otherwise, there will be conflicts always. yes, I want you to answer the questions which I have raised. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sikh_fauge Posted March 18, 2004 Report Share Posted March 18, 2004 Simple answer to a simple question.. 'The path of sikhi is thinner than a strand of hair, and sharper than the double edged sword' (bhai gurdas ji)..basically its a f!'""!!! hard path to follow, almost impossible. So do we want to make things harder for urselves, by marrying someone who isnt like-minded/follows the same beleifs as u? I guess as long as ur "happy" then its all good..but the fact u ask this question from spiritual people makes me think ur conscience is telling u otherwise..god bless sister 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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