Eating meat within Rehat

[Baba Manochal]

firstly if you wanna start calling names, then fair enough lets do that, babu is real funny and clever, if thats the road you want to travel down then please say so and we can do that, no problem.

now going back to ur points.

OBVIOUSLY i dont understand what you meant, thats why i asked for clarification, perhaps you are the one with reading difficulty. i have said clearly that i do not understand what you are saying since to me it seems that you are using both arguments, and yet still you havent said what you meant. if that means i have probs reading, chal lets say that i have, please proffesor sahib explain to this moorakh.

given the reading dificulties i have, perhaps we both studied at the same school.

your school teacher example is crap, there are so many individuals who ordinarily will claim to be nihangs etc but when asked to be specific they answer in much the same way as you did. the logic i used is based on being given the choice, if your not comfortable with that then be clear, dont be ambiguous.

and mr centre of the universe the muslim halal comment wasnt meant for yourself, if you read back through your own posts you will notice that it wouldnt work if that was meant for your benifit, however if you look at shasterkovich's posts it does apply to them. so dont be such a drama queen. and wow thank you so much for pointing out that an animal would be aware of its surroundings AFTER its throat had been slit! never would have guessed that one!

i would say none of my questions have been answered.

if i wanted to cause conflict about eating meat my friend, why would i state that i do not wish to turn this conversation into a meat vs non meat one?!

why do you seem so certain that i am causing trouble? have i criticized anyone in this topic for eating meat? whether or not i believe it is right or wrong, i have kept those opinions out of the debate and am asking the people who do eat meat questions about how they do it etc. if you cant or wont answer them then how am i causing conflict!?

go look at any other thread about meat and other such issues and you see the conflict on those, so far nobody other than you has called anybody names, i have never judged you, only questioned. so from my understanding this thread is going quite well. stop trying to divert the attention and answer the points.

why are you so scared of answering the question? thats the 2nd or 3rd time youve avoided it now. ok so you dont eat halal. im not asking that. im asking what kind of meat do you eat.

how is that such a difficult question to answer? hari said he has eaten 3 chickens whose necks he has broken, fair enough the chap answered the point. but you for some reason keep avoiding it?

why?

being no expert on meat, i still pretty certain when i say that there must be more ways of killing meat apart from just halal and jhatka. im asking you what method you use, or if you dnt then what method does the person who provides the meat for you use.

and what it to me? well it is something to me because i wish to know the information, if you dont want to answer of get involved in the discussion then dont. leave. bye bye.

and which of shaster..'s points do you feel are really good?

rinse me? pray tell me how!? by saying i cant read english?! whooo bad boy!

grow up. if you cant be bothered to discuss sensibly then just dont get involved. there are SO many people who are pro meat, and i havent attacked any of these people, just asked them about how and what they do! i havent judged just queried. now if thats a crime then shoot me!

i cant believe that out of so many people who say its ok to eat jhatka etc, that only one person can tell me where they got their meat from and how it was killed.

maybe everyone is just full of bull**? i dunno.

beast calm down and chat properly try to be civilised or dont bother at all.

[Shasterkovich]

Baba Manochal,

There are a lot of assumptions in your posts. The fact that I am not addressing them all here does not mean that I necessarily accept them.

The question of what is halal has already been dealt with. I wrote that halal has 2 qualities:

1) Slaughter by letting the blood leak out until the animal is dead;

2) Slaughter being done by a Muslim.

Your question hinges on the definition of what is jhatka. There is an (incorrect) assumption on your part that there is only one commonly received interpretation of what constitutes jhatka.

As I have already mentioned, to some people jhatka includes all of the meat available in a British supermarket, which is not marked "halal". This is because their definition of jhatka is meat characterised by the following qualities (the third quality being optional and not required, provided that number 2 is present:

1) Slaughter by one physical action;

2) Slaughter not done by letting the blood leak out until the animal is dead;

3) Slaughter not done by a Muslim.

Option 3 above has been included to show that if, say, a Sikh kills an animal by leaking the blood out from an artery, that does not make it halal.

According to the above interpretation of jhatka, KFC, Burger King and Sainsbury's all produce acceptable "jhatka" meat.

However, people who adhere to this interpretation may say that meat purchased in Britain from these shops may be jhatka (if not marked "Halal") but would not be mahaprasaad unless it is done the traditional way by someone decapitating the beast with a big knife.

It's all a question of definitions. The fact that we do not all kill beasts in the back garden is because in some cases (such as with myself) we do not all have back gardens, and also there may be social or legal consequences of doing so. That does not mean that the meat we buy is not jhatka, even if we do not see the slaughter itself. This is because it is possible to research modern slaughter methods used in British abattoirs to ascertain whether the methods used are jhatka or not.

I hope this has cleared things up.

Oh, one last thing. You mentioned animal's blood, and you alleged that nihangs drink the stuff. I cannot speak for the nihangs, but I can tell you that I have drunk animal's blood myself (in very small quantities) on several occasions (no kidding). This has been when I have bought raw meat to cook for myself. I used the plastic wrapper, which collects about 10 to 15ml which you can run into a glass when you open the packet. I have drunk deer's blood and sheep's blood. The sheep's blood tasted much better, and did'nt separate out so quickly into a nasty yellowish plasma. I drank the blood as an exercise on my personal religious/spiritual path. I had to do it.

[Beast]

your school teacher example is crap, there are so many individuals who ordinarily will claim to be nihangs etc but when asked to be specific they answer in much the same way as you did. the logic i used is based on being given the choice, if your not comfortable with that then be clear, dont be ambiguous.

I have never 'ordinarily claimed to be a nihang'. The closest I have come is to imply that I may have some attributes which often characterise nihangs (eg an ability to piss people off that I don't like).

In regards to your cola comment, perhaps in the future i shall pick my words with more care, let me rephrase in regards to the drinking part.. is some type of gurbani read (by others)while a nihang drinks the animlas blood? also please can you answer the actual question itself, i.e. if halal is wrong because its a ritual which involves sacred verses being read, then are there of are there not certain shabads read before the animal is killed such as chandi di var, this is what i have heard or read somewhere, can somebody confirm or deny this?

i called you a nihang because earlier you said you was both and neither, which means you dont seem to care so i have chosen to call you a nihang since you seemed to give me the option of doing so. if im wrong please state as such.

If you say you disagree with halal or question its use does that make anyone anti muslim or does it mean your attacking muslims?

and mr centre of the universe the muslim halal comment wasnt meant for yourself, if you read back through your own posts you will notice that it wouldnt work if that was meant for your benifit, however if you look at shasterkovich's posts it does apply to them. so dont be such a drama queen. and wow thank you so much for pointing out that an animal would be aware of its surroundings AFTER its throat had been slit! never would have guessed that one!

1. I'm not a mind reader. Make it clear who u are speaking to, they'll teach u that at school don't worry.

2. From those that support the halal way of slaughter, the animal is not said to feel pain and remains calm throughout. I simply commented in 1 of my earlier posts that an animal I saw being slaughtered on tv did not seem calm. Whether this was an isolated case I don't know.

i would say none of my questions have been answered.

Really???!?? Both Hari and Shasterkovich made some excellent points.

I'll come back to this in another post.

why are you so scared of answering the question? thats the 2nd or 3rd time youve avoided it now. ok so you dont eat halal. im not asking that. im asking what kind of meat do you eat.

how is that such a difficult question to answer? hari said he has eaten 3 chickens whose necks he has broken, fair enough the chap answered the point. but you for some reason keep avoiding it?

why?

being no expert on meat, i still pretty certain when i say that there must be more ways of killing meat apart from just halal and jhatka. im asking you what method you use, or if you dnt then what method does the person who provides the meat for you use.

and what it to me? well it is something to me because i wish to know the information, if you dont want to answer of get involved in the discussion then dont. leave. bye bye.

I've said this many times now, the meat that I do eat is not halal. Period. This discussion is abt Eating Meat within Rehat (in the Sikh Martial Arts/Nihangs section for some reason). Once more in case u missed it, I personally eat meat as long as it isn't halal.

btw i feel the same abt kosher as i do abt halal. why? no reason, I just do. They seem to be the same thing but with different names. Does anyone know anything abt the kosher process?

i cant believe that out of so many people who say its ok to eat jhatka etc, that only one person can tell me where they got their meat from and how it was killed.

Is saying that its ok to eat jhatka the same as saying you will only eat jhatka???

beast calm down and chat properly try to be civilised or dont bother at all.

:shock:

You seem to be asking me a lot about myself but you haven't said anything about yourself. I'm not going to reveal aspects of my life to a strange boy on the net. You want to know abt me, well first reveal a little bit abt yourself and where you stand on meat and on Nihangs (these two seem to be central to this thread).

I'll give my opinion on certain topics and I will accept criticisms if there are any flaws in any of my arguments. I might have an ego, but I'm always willing to further my knowledge.

[Beast]

Well i just wanted to ask, is this rehat maintained at all times? I mean for example if you didnt manage to cut the head of in one blow and a bit of skin was still attached. would you still eat it or throw it away?

and is there certain animals which you cant eat? in the sense that you normally hear of goats being killed for their meat, but can you eat other animals like cows, chickens, birds, deers, pigs, horses, dogs, cats etc? Reason being that often you hear the argument that the armies didnt have time to prepare dhal etc and so had to eat meat, well if you were in those circumstances and you saw a dog would that also be chatka'd and eaten?

and how would you kill the smaller animals like birds, chickens, cats etc.

Also do eggs and fish count? can you nihangs eat eggs and fish?

how do you chatka an egg or even a fish!?

Beast:

From a biochemical point of view, eggs aren't meat.

Personally, I don't eat halal and my preference is for the animal that i've eaten to have been killed with the minimum of pain (ie chatka). By this mentality non-halal meat in the UK is cool coz the animals are killed quickly and efficiently.

Shasterkovich:

Don't be so sure about the slaughtering being done in painless ways in the UK. Worryingly, in the plants the stun gun does'nt finish off the beast in some cases, while it goes down the line hanging upside down, its legs broken. The bolt has to be placed directly in the middle of the forehead to have effect. Human error does happen sometimes, and this results in the animal not being properly killed by the shock. I witnessed a perfect bolt-killing once (on a pig in Germany). It was on an open farm, and it needed 2 very strong men to do it properly. Modern battery methods are not conducive to correct slaughering technique.

While I don't believe that eating meat is wrong per se, it would be wrong to pretend that modern farming methods are humane. However, in my opinion you can eat mutton and lamb in good conscience, and most other meats too. This is because the producer is the one who will be culpable for any inhumane/painful methods he uses - not I. As a consumer of the end-product, I want the beast killed humanely, and I have no control over the stages from animal to dinner. Therefore the blame lies squarely with the industry.

What if you cant get chatka meat here? but still wanted to eat meat (as many people on this forum believe need to, i.e. in order for a balanced diet and for training as people have said on a topic to do with training and diet), for these people are they breaking the rehat by eating non-chatka meat? if you just buy and eat normal meat does that make you a krethi?

and of the people who have claimed that eating meat is ok and that chatka is fine etc, how many of you actually eat meat, and how many just talk it? Plus do you hide the fact that you are a meat eater from the people around you or are you open about it?

Both myself and Shasterkovich implied that we don't eat halal meat, therefore rehat is not broken. (your remaining queries in the above quote become obsolete)

Shasterkovich:

What's so important about how you kill a damn goat (as long as it's not halal)?

truthsingh:

Meat is allowed as far as it is "jhatka" and this hukumnama was issued by akal thakat sahib.

Quote:

Please clarify beast whether or not you believe an animal would feel fear and run when seeing a weapon. So far youre on both ships.

<Beast> Give me the quotes where I have contradicted myself (taking into account your reading difficulties)

Still waiting.

Shasterkovich:

Baba Manochal,

I feel it's important to point out that your posts in this thread contain too many assumptions, and you have imputed from my posts things that I have not represented either implicitly or explicitly. The fact that I'm not addressing them all here does not mean that I accept them as true.

baba, I'll try to be a little less sarcastic in the future if thats what will make you happy. (yes, I'm holding out the olive branch)

Also, please make a concise list of all the questions that you feel still remain.

Remember: The jhatka issue has been tackled, in my opinion rehat is not broken by eating non-jhatka meat. It is broken by eating halal (and therefore, in my case, kosher meat) meat. (I know this contradicts Akal Takhat, but I'm not really an SGPC fan).

Most of the replies you get will most likely be opinions, but if something you said was illogical then pls don't stick to your guns.

[Beast]

Your question hinges on the definition of what is jhatka. There is an (incorrect) assumption on your part that there is only one commonly received interpretation of what constitutes jhatka.

As I have already mentioned, to some people jhatka includes all of the meat available in a British supermarket, which is not marked "halal". This is because their definition of jhatka is meat characterised by the following qualities (the third quality being optional and not required, provided that number 2 is present:

1) Slaughter by one physical action;

2) Slaughter not done by letting the blood leak out until the animal is dead;

3) Slaughter not done by a Muslim.

Completely missed this post, sorry!! :bling:

take Shasterkovich's post into account as well pls baba

[Baba Manochal]

The definition given for jhatka.. is that an official one?

I.e is that your personal definition shaterkovich or the official? Is there an official explanation?

Beast you have one hell of a chip on your shoulder, when will you realise that i do not have a hidden agenda or secret vendeta agaisnt you or anyone else! I am here to learn. If you feel you can assist then please do so, olive branch accepted.

I agree that this prob does agree on definitions.

Does it not seem that the 3 point definition given and the the accompanying note about the sikh being able to kill the animal by blood letting, is another way of saying ALL meat is acceptable except halal. so everything except halal is jhatka.

This confuses me slightly because the word jhatka as far as i know, means a one blow kill. be that severing the head or bullet shot etc. But iv never heard that blood letting could be defined as jhatka??

This link is to the Government website giving directions on how animals are to be slaughtered in the uk.

http://www.defra.gov.uk/animalh/welfare/fa...81/casua010.htm

65. There is no single 'approved manner' of bleeding an animal. Animals are bled out after stunning to ensure that they die from loss of blood before there is a chance of them regaining consciousness. The points listed below should be borne in mind by the veterinary surgeon when deciding whether he or she can clearly certify that bleeding was carried out in an 'approved manner'.

(i) In order to avoid any risk of the animal regaining consciousness, sticking should follow stunning without delay.

(ii) The skin at the point where the animal is stuck should be clean.

(iii) The major blood vessels should be cut with a clean knife.

(iv) The act of sticking the animal should produce an immediate and copious flow of blood.

(v) Reasonable and sufficient precautions should be taken to protect the sticking wound from risk of contamination during and after bleeding out.

this would suggest that uk slaughter houses as you well know kill their animals by bleeding them to death.

in terms of halal the only thing missing is the muslim and the prayer!

as i have said i find it difficult to accept blood spilling as a form of jhatka(instant death).

the following link is from a research paper into slaughtermethods and the stunning techniques used. as you have earlier said this is not at all a safe or efficient system.

http://www.ciwf.co.uk/Pubs/Reports/UK_Slau...elfare_2001.pdf

this is quite a comprehensive study, it covers probs related to stunning the animals, which in many cases are not sufficiently done, meaning animal is still wide awake at time of slaughter. it also appraoches the fact that when the animal is bled, often it can take a lot longer then expected for the animal to die. halal is challenged as an inhumane method of killing animals without prior stunning.

IS there a difference between mahaparshad and jhatka!?

The reason this is in the nihang section, is becuase it would seem that they are the main ones who practice jhatka, and hence they would prob be best placed to answer the questions.

[Shasterkovich]

Baba,

It's true to say that I have my own angle on these matters, and that it's not necessarily the same as the nihangs'. Interpretation always has a part to play, so knowing the black letter rules is unlikely to be the be all and end all.

As I've mentioned I cannot speak for the nihangs or what they do. NNS probably could, if you asked him.