Why i choose sikhism??

[sikh_fauge]

In the same way the khalsa is the embodiment of the gurus; the muslims in world follow the words of the their prophet and hence reflect his teachings. Even the most tolerant sect of ahmidyas in punjab in essence claim sikhi is just an offshoot of islam.

I think u need to wake up and smell the coffee; the mentality of muslims, in general, isnt as pleasant as u think..it never was with hindus in india..it never was with the mughals before that..it never was with the gurus and the khalsa..and it continues to be intolerant to this day and age; the immigration of thousands of sikhs from islamic countries can be seen today (as well as other non muslims.).where there is muslims, there is ultmiately conflict..its sad but true..this is their faith (exception being some sects which love godly men)..dnt spend so much time focusing on ur muslim brothers lalleshvari, jst focus on ur own spirituality.

[Guest Javanmard]

1. Never said that mourning Imam Hussain (AS) was a condition to go to Paradise and I just quoted it as an example

2. Bukhari includes a lot of lies about the Prophet and his life. Only the haditth from the Ahlul Bayt can be taken as authentic

3. The question of interpretation was directed at you guys not at me! What is the ARabic word for idolatress in the ayat?

[sikh_fauge]

Why are u so hell bound to preach about islam to us and how brilliant it really is? Ur acting real insecure and suspicously to me.

At the end of the day; jew muslim christian hindu sikh or buddhist..i dnt give two tattis..most my best mates are muslim. Its about love and devotion to god. Im glad uve met nice muslims out there; but that doesnt reflect the teachings of the koran (from the countless references made to kaffurs and people who reject the teachings from the semetic faiths.)

At the end of the day i wish muslims were open minded as shias, but 90% arent..and im not about to change that for them. Instead i focus on my own connection with waheguru..the rest is his play

[Mr §ingh]

1. Never said that mourning Imam Hussain (AS) was a condition to go to Paradise and I just quoted it as an example

so theres other CONDITIONS for non-muslims?

2. Bukhari includes a lot of lies about the Prophet and his life. Only the haditth from the Ahlul Bayt can be taken as authentic

Why would it do that ?

3. The question of interpretation was directed at you guys not at me! What is the ARabic word for idolatress in the ayat?

can you not answer my question ?

[Guest Javanmard]

Did I ever say you shouldn't brother?

Loving Akal Purakh is the highest from of existence and I wished everyone would be like that! Just because Sunnis behave the way they do doesn't mean that the Prophet or Islam is to be held responsible. They don't have proper scholars who interpret Qur'an unlike Shias who do. That's why they just interpret Islam our of context for their own convenience. Understanding any religion implies a lot of study and knowledge that is why Guru Gobind Singh founded the Nirmale. Shias have great scholars and that is why theyr are able to represent REAL islam unlike Sunnis!!! Even the Hezbollah in Lebanon has opened up its ranks to Christians!

Fact is that in Bhai Mani SIngh's janamsakhi Guru nanak declares that Imam Ali is the real successor of the Prophet hence I use SHia sources when alking about Islam because I obey my Guru and until now I had wonderful surprises with all the Shias I met except for the very few Khamenei types who are just hidden Sunnis!!!

[sikh_fauge]

Its brilliant they treat u with so much love when ur celebrating with them..but how many of them go to the gurudwara and rejoyce at the birth of guru gobind singh ji?

There are countless muslims who were our brothers..past and present..and they helped singhs alot (namely shias)..i love them as my own..no dispute..but this doesnt have a reflection on islam or its teachings.

Please send me quotes on islam accepting other faiths? especially those after the prophet.

Also are shias u talk so highly of the same shias who beat themselves to death?? Could u explain this to me please..and where in koran it is written they should perform this? If there is no koranic support, then how do we know everything else they beleive in is derived from islam? Maybe like nirankaris, these guys have their own relegion..sort of like a blend of what they feel like following

[sikh_fauge]

Q.3: 118-120

O you who believe! Take not as (your) bitaanah (advisors, consultants, protectors, helpers, friends, etc.) those outside your religion (pagans, Jews, Christians, and hypocrites) since hey will not fail to do their best to corrupt you. They desire to harm you severely. Hatred has already appeared from heir mouths, but what their breasts conceal is far worse. Indeed We have made clear to you the aayaat (proofs, evidence, verses), if you understand. Lo! You are the ones who love them but they love you not, and you believe in all the Scriptures [i.e., you believe in the Tawraat and the Injeel, while they disbelieve in your Book (the Qur’an)]. And when they meet you, they say, ‘We believe.’ But when they are alone, they bite the tips of their fingers at you in rage. Say: ‘Perish in your rage. Certainly Allah knows what is in the breasts (all the secrets).’ If a good befalls you, it grieves them, but some evil overtakes you, they rejoice at it…

[Mr §ingh]

Can u not answer the question?

How do Sh'ias interpret it

and thne I'll compare your answer to my Sh'ia friend

[sikh_fauge]

bro, who is immam ali?

lets not get into a dispute mr singh, we're all brothers on the same path hunah

GROUP HUG!

[sikh_fauge]

And no offence veera..but ur guru tells u to put no faith in the koran or puran..and to reject the paths preached by mohammed (swayae in rehraas sahib)

[Mr §ingh]

lol yea

Guggy

I'm still waiting for haji's reply..

[Guest Javanmard]

1. Many Indo Pakistani Shias celebrate certain gurpurabs and love our Gurus. I personally know one of the descendants of Pir Budhu Shah who takes his freinds to the gurdwara and his SIkh friends go to the Imam bargah

2. The practice of matam is not mentioned in the Qur'an as the events of Karbala came after the death of the Prophet (pbuh) although he himslef had received revelation of those events and mouring himslef.

Shias don't beat themselves to death otherwise there would be no SHIAS left. Matam is only permissible if the wounds are not endangering the life of the azadar. Beating chest, the use of zanjirs and khamazani is permissible as long as they do not inflict any long time serious harm to the body.

Philosophy of Azadari

Shrine of Imam Hussain Ibne Ali(as), Karbala, Iraq

By Zaheer Abbas Karim

"I have risen (against Yazid) as I wish to reform the ummah of my grandfather. I wish to encourage the good and discourage the evil, and follow in the way of my grandfather (Rasulullah) and my father, 'Ali bin Abi Talib" - King of the Martyrs, Imam Husayn(as) Day of Ashura: 10th Muharram / 5th April

Salaamun 'alaykum,

The memorable days of Muharram are passing by with a river of tears and thunder of the matam. This is the remembrance of the King of the Martyrs, the remembrance that our Holy Prophet (saww) had promised:

When the Holy Prophet (saww) informed Lady Fatima (sa) of the Martyrdom in store for his grandson, she burst into tears as asked "O my father! When would my son be martyred?"

"In such a critical moment," replied the Holy Prophet, "when neither I nor you, nor Ali would be alive."

This accentuated her grief and she inquired again, "Who then, O my father, would commemorate Hussain's Martyrdom?"

The Holy Prophet said, "The men and the women of a particular group of my followers, who will befriend my Ahlul Bayt, will mourn for Hussain and commemorate his martyrdom each year in every century."

Alam Procession

Brothers and sisters recently there have been many attacks on the different elements of mourning (azadari). It is baffling and quite shocking that people have started to label the Alam of Abbas (as), the cradle of Ali Asgher (as), the replicas of the Mausoleums of the Ma'sumeen (as) etc., as idols that are 'worshiped' by Shias as they were 'worshiped' in the Indian subcontinent. Even more shocking is that this is being perpetuated by so-called enlightened Shias. These people go as far as saying that calling upon Moula 'Ali for help is Shirk. This is the same group of people that have a problem with our different cultures and want to reduce the majaalis of Imam al-Hussain (as) into mere lectures with no matam, no black clothing, no mourning, no outburst of cries, no emotion!

Well, beware of falling into this satanic trap because the cursed satan works not at the bars, but within the followers of the Ahlul-bayt (as).

These articles will inshallah touch upon some Quranic references for Azadari. However, to begin with, we must rid ourselves from the understanding that calling upon Imam Ali (as) 'YA ALI MADAD' is shirk. When Imam is called upon, the caller KNOWS that Imam will come to his/her help ONLY via the authority given to him by Allah (swt). This is nothing but Ibadah of Allah (swt). By the way, if you have a tablet or see a doctor when you are ill as you feel that this is the only thing that will cure me, then it is Shirk! So before we attack the fundamentals of the Shia faith, let us see how many idols we have worshiped in our lives: US Dollars, UK Pounds, Ego, The Doctor, Fame, Power, The West, Materialism, Celebrities, Sports Heroes, Capitalism, The Boss at work, etc.

Undoubtedly the misguided group that calls Alams and Julas as shirk have not understood the meaning of ibadah. If an Alam was to be understood as the entity that can make a difference in one's life, INDEPENDENT of anything else, i.e. totally removed from Allah (swt), than this is truly Shirk. However, if the Alam is respected, kissed, and used as a method to bring about emotions, and it is done so because it symbolizes the Alam of Abbas (as) that fell in Kerbala, and that Abbas (as) holds the highest authority in the eyes of Allah (swt) after the Ahlul-bayt (as), and that it is only through the power and authority given to Hazrat Abbas by Allah (swt) that will make a difference in your duas, then this is nothing but worship - ibadah of Allah (swt).

The above explanation has failed to do justice to Sheik Arif Husain's Majalis at the Jafari Islamic Centre in Toronto on 8th Muharram, 1422 A.H. Please listen to the Majalis (8th night) as he has categorically explained the logical need and basis of taqleed, the historical roots of taqleed (right from the days of Rasulullah (saww), what is Shirk and what is not, and the Status of Hazrat Abbas (as). Sh. Arif is the Howza (al-Mahdi seminary in Birmingham UK) founder and principle. Let us listen to this Majalis, and mature our understanding of the Shia faith. The sign of jahala will be subsequent attacks on azadari.

His majaalis (sermons) in English and Urdu can be heard at http://www.islamicentre.org/multimedia/muharram.asp

Having explained that respecting the symbols of Kerbala is NOT shirk, we will now address the Quranic basis for this. However, please rid the notion that in being fed to people that Alams, Jula, niyaz (the refreshments served in the name of Al-Hussain (as)), etc. are all cultural and traditional practices of India and Pakistan. Whoever is saying this ought to get out more often! O people, realize that the Alam of Abbas is a global phenomenon for it is found in Asia, Australia, Europe, North America, South America, and even the most remote places of Africa. Know that the Alam is not just stick and cloth, but it is a philosophy within itself. Think, just think, how the Alam spread all across the world. There was no Alam conference, but there always will be the Duas of Fatima Zahra (sa). The Alam fell in Kerbala after the enemy severed the hand of Abbas (as), so let us pick up the Alam and raise it up high and call upon Abbas (as) and say, 'O Abbas, come and look at your Alam - it is raised up for eternity' So please, if you feel uncomfortable with the Alam, go elsewhere, but do not wage a war against the Mission of Abbas (as)!

Moulana Jawed Jafri recently explained the Quranic basis of some of the practices in Muharram. He enlightened youths with these concepts at a discussion in Muharram 1421 A.H.

Firstly, Allah (swt) declares in the Holy Quran: "... and whoever respects the signs of Allah, verily it is (the reflection) of the piety of their hearts"(22:32)

According to the ayah, a person who offers respect toward the signs of Allah, actually does so due to the piety and taqwa in his/her heart. We have explained how the Alams etc. are related to Allah (swt) as Kerbala was the place where Islam was saved. Everyday we place our forehead onto the soil of Kerbala in salaat. Again, this is nothing but Ibadah of Allah (swt)! Thus, don't call those who kiss the Alam as blind followers, rather their respecting the signs of Allah (swt) and it is a reflection of taqwa in their hearts as per the above verse.

Consider Surah Al-Adiyat (The Chargers):

By the chargers (who are heavily breathing);

And those that dash off (their hoofs) striking fire;

And those who scour to the attack at dawn!

And stir thereby the dust aloft

And penetrate through (the foe) all of them;

History has recorded that these verses were revealed after Imam Ali (as) led an army to give the enemy a crushing defeat in the early morning. All Ulema will tell you that when Allah (swt) swears by something in the Holy Quran, He is displaying its importance. Well brothers and sisters, not only as Allah sworn in these verses by the chargers (warriors fighting in the way of Islam), and their act of dashing, and by the fire under the attacking horses, but Allah (swt) also swears by the dust that is beneath the horses that the solders were sitting upon! What magnificent symbolism the Holy Quran is showing - that the dust beneath the hoofs of the horses used in the Jihad of Allah (swt) is worthy of being an entity by which Allah (swt) swears to convey and important message. Because these were the warriors fighting in the way of Allah (swt), everyone associated with their charge becomes a sign an symbol of Allah. So how about Kerbala - the event that saved Islam forever. How about the Flag of Imam Husain (as) - the Alam of Abbas (as). Do you see now that the symbols of Kerbala are worthy of respect! And respecting them is the sign of the taqwa and piety of the heart.

In Surah As-Saba, Ayah 13 states:

"They (the Jinn) made for him (Prophet Sulaiman) whatever he willeth of fortress and models, and basins as large as reservoirs, and huge cooking cauldrons immovable from their places, 'Act ye gratefully, O family of David! and very few of My servants are grateful'"

The words Mahreeb and Tamatheel (models) in tafsir are considered the basis for the replicas of the Mausoleums of the Holy Ahlul-bayt (as). Again, these replicas serve us as a reminder of the actual Mausoleum (Roza) of our beloved, however they act as symbols to us for us to do ziayarat from across the world.

In Surah Ash-Shams Ayah 13, the Camel of Prophet Saleh was referred to as Allah's camel. Does this mean Allah (swt) rides of the camel? NO of course not!, rather it is showing us that everything that strives or is used in the in the path of Allah (swt) becomes a sign and symbol of Allah (Swt). This has Quranic basis.

There are many more examples, and brothers and sisters are invited to go deeper in the Holy Quran and the Hadith of the Ahlul-bayt (as) to appreciate the significant of Kerbala and its symbols. A concept that can be researched by the seeker of knowledge is the meaning behind 'taboot' in 2:248. According to the ayah, the heritage of Prophet Musa and Prophet Haroon are in the taboot that the angels carry; and this is a sign for the believers. How is this different from the taboot we raise in Julus and processions in Ashura?

Thus, Let us understand out religion and not be the ones who are the oppressors of the true faith. Indeed if there is one person who was against the Azadari of Imam Hussain (as), it is the cursed Yazid (la).

In conclusion, there is no Marja or Mujtahid is the Islamic world that has condemned azadari like we hear condemnation from some common self-proclaimed experts. Azadari is what has kept the religion alive.

Think: when you do tonight to the masjid; when will you ever see so many people again - what is it that brings them to perform azadari. And what are the consequences for those who try to undermine the Eternal Philosophy of Kerbala!

There is so much to read about Kerbala, and so much to learn. It quite obvious that those who wage a war against Alams and the symbols of Kerbala ought to do some more reading and reflecting. Some internet sites that are useful for all of us in gaining a better understanding of Kerbala are as follows:

Imam Husain (AS): A brief Description and Analysis http://al-islam.org/encyclopedia/chapter5b/1.html

Some Traditions on Imam al-Husain (AS) http://al-islam.org/encyclopedia/chapter5b/2.html

Reasons Behind the Commemoration of Imam al-Husain (AS) http://al-islam.org/encyclopedia/chapter5b/3.html

Did Imam al-Husain (AS) Know He Would Be killed? http://al-islam.org/encyclopedia/chapter5b/4.html

The Martyred Ones http://al-islam.org/encyclopedia/chapter5b/5.html

"The love of us (Ahlul-bayt) is faith, and the hatred of us is fidelity" - Imam Muhammad al-Baqir (as)

The Shaam-e-Ghariban

Disclaimer:

This article is provided by the person mentioned above. Shia News is not responsible for the contents of this article.

and also:

1) Azadari Of Hazrat Imam Hussain a.s

The mourning for Imam Hussain[as]:

As the Ummah enters a new millennium and the coming of our Imam comes ever closer, the Shi'a community is now being faced with new challenges, the traditional opposition from the majority school but also from the Shi'a community itself.

Voices of opposition to the mourning rituals for Imam Hussain is becoming all the more prevalent. This is why we felt that it was our duty to defend the traditions of Aazadari.

Is Mourning for Imam Hussain Bidah?

This is the common argument of the Ahl'ul Sunnah. Our response is that such rituals have passed through history and were rituals cited in the Bible, the Qur'an and in the practices of the Sahaba.

Part 1 - Textual Proofs

1. Christian sources

The Wahabys will ask 'why are you quoting Christian sources?' to them our answer is simple doesn't Ahmad Deedat prove Salaat from Christian sources? Ofcourse, why because he seeks to demonstrate that this form of Salaat is correct was practised by previous generations. We will likewise advance the same arguments when proving mourning rituals.

The Bible, Isaiah 22:12 - shows that this type of mourning was ordained by God

"On that Day the Lords called for weeping and beating the breast, for shaving the head and putting on sack cloth"

"You are now at ease, be anxious; tremble, you who have no cares. Strip yourselves bare; put a cloth round your waists and beat yourselves"

The Bible, Isaiah 32:11

"Howl, Heshbon, for Ai is despoiled. Cry aloud you villages round Rabbath Ammon, put on sack cloth and beat your breast and score your body with gashes"

The Bible, Jeremiah 49:3

"The crowd that had assembled for the spectacle, when they saw what had happened went home beating their breasts"

The Bible, Luke 23:48

2. Mourning from the Qur'an:

From the Holy Quran from the Chapter ADH-DHAARIYAAT we learn that Hadhrath Sara struck her face when she was told that she would conceive a baby.

"Then came forward his wife in grief, she smote her face and said (what! I) an old barren woman?"

Quran 51:29

Thus it is evident that smiting the face was not an objectionable act in the sight of Allah, otherwise Allah would have reprimanded her for doing so.

3. The mourning rituals of the Sahaba, wives and Ahl'ul bayt

(i) Beating and mourning by a Bedouin / Sahaba

We can read from the book of Muwatta of Imam Malik, that a Bedouin came to Holy Prophet (s.a.w) while beating his chest and tearing his hair in front of the holy prophet (s.a.w) because he slept with his wife while fasting during month of Ramadhan.

Malik's Muwatta

Book 18, Number 18.9.29:

Yahya related to me from Malik from Ata ibn Abdullah al-Khurasani that Said ibn al-Musayyab said, "A bedouin came to the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, beating his breast and tearing out his hair and saying, 'I am destroyed.' The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, 'Why is that?', and he said, 'I had intercourse with my wife while fasting in Ramadan.' The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, asked him, 'Are you able to free a slave?', and the man said, 'No.' Then he asked him, 'Are you able to give away a camel?', and the man replied, 'No.' He said, 'Sit own,' and someone brought a large basket of dates to the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, and he said to the man, 'Take this and give it away as sadaqa.' The man said, 'There is no one more needy than me,' and (the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace), said, 'Eat them, and fast one day for the day when you had intercourse.' "

The incident should be considered in the light of the following facts :-

The Bedouin being a Muslim was Sahabi (companion) of the Holy Prophet (s.a.w).

He was beating his chest and tearing his hair in presence of Holy Prophet (s.a.w) who neither objected to it nor reprimanded him for the same.

The action of the Bedouin was a result of spiritual pain he suffered as his fast was invalidated.

This incident has been authentically recorded by Sunni traditionists.

(ii) Beating and mourning by Bilal

Sheikh Abdul Haq Mohaddis Hanafi Dehlavi who is regarded as one of the greatest Scholars of the Sunni Sect, describing the events at the fatal illnes of the Holy Prophet (s.a.w) in his book 'Modaarejun Nubuwwat' vol II page 544 records:-

"Bilal emerged beating his head and loudly wailing (from the room of Aisha)."

Fatima Zahra (a.s) hearing the rumour of the martyrdom of the Holy Prophet (s.a.w) at Uhud came out of her house running and beating her head

Sheikh Abdul Haq Mohaddis Hanafi Dehlavi

Even in this case none of the companions raised any objection at the action of Bilal, the special Muezzin of the Prophet (s.a.w). Moreover, the Holy Prophet (s.a.w) was yet alive and not dead. This is the extreme extent of grief. Then how can similar action for Imam Hussain (a.s) be prohibited?

Allamah Shibli Numani al Hanafi is a renowned Sunni scholar from the Indian subcontinent, in his Sirat-un Nabi (Eng translation Volume 2 pg 74) quoting Sirat Ibn Hisham we read following Hadhrath Humza martyrdom:

(iii) Beating and mourning by the wives of the Sahaba

"The Holy Prophet (P) returned to Madina and found the whole city gone into mourning. Whenever he went, he heard wailing and lamentation in every house. He was grieved to find that all who fell in the battle had their mourners doing their duty to the memory of their dear ones; but their was none to mourn the death of Humza . Overwhelmed with grief the words that there was none to mourn the loss of Hamza escaped his lips. The Ansaris were touched to the core when the remark came to their ears. They asked their women to go to the house of the Prophet (S) and lament over the death of Humza. The Prophet (p) thanked them for their sympathy, prayed for their well being, but added that it was not permissible to cry lamentations in memory of the dead. (Women in Arabia were used to wailing and lamenting aloud, they would tear off their garments, dig their nails into their cheeks, slap themselves on the face and put up loud screams. This undesirable practice was from that day stopped for future".

Suffice it to say:

The Sahaba's wives performed mourning rituals upon the death of Amir Humza .

Coming back to Numani's final comments I would pose these questions:

If Lamenting was haraam why would the Prophet (S) had been saddened that no-one was mourning his slain Uncle?

Why would the Prophet (S) allow the women to do something that is haraam?

If as Numani tells us that this was a common practice amongst Arab women and it was banned it would have definitely received maximum publicity.

Beating and mourning by Ayesha and the other wives of the Prophet (S)

(iv) Beating and mourning by the wives of the Prophet (S)

Curiously, not a single wife of the Prophet (S) ever heard of this ban (as claimed by Numani). On the contrary Hadhrath Aisha regarded by Ahl'ul Sunnah as the most knowledgeable women on Qur'an and Sunnah performed the following when the Prophet (S) left this earth:

As narrated by al Tabari in History Volume 9 page 183 (English translation by Ismail Poonawalla)

Abbas narrates:

"I heard Aisha saying "The Messenger of God died on my bosom during my turn, I did not wrong anyone in regard to him. It was because of my ignorance and youthfulness that the Messenger of God died while he was in my lap. Then I laid his head on a pillow and got up beating my chest and slapping my face along with the women".

Need we say anymore? Would the wives of the Prophet (S) indulge in a haraam activity?

According to Musnad of Imam Ahmad Hanbal Vol. 6, page 274; Aisha mourned the demise of the Holy Prophet (s.a.w) with other women by beating her head.

(v) Beating and mourning by Sayyida Fatima Zahra

Again the same book of 'Modaarejun Nubuwwat' Vol 2, page 163, the high ranking Sunni Scholar, Sheikh Abdul Haq Mohaddis Hanafi Dehlavi recorded that:

"Fatima Zahra (a.s) hearing the rumour of the martyrdom of the Holy Prophet (s.a.w) at Uhud came out of her house running and beating her head".

Does it not transpire from the above that beating of head during the act of mourning for a martyr is also allowed by the religion as Sayyeda (a.s) was well aware of the religious code and was also infallible according to aya tat-hir (33:33). In addition an action of any member of Ahl'ul bayt is a Sunnah for the Ithna Ashari Shia's, mourning is not bidah it is a Sunnah of Sayyida Fatima Zahra .

(vi) Beating and mourning for Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal death

From the book of 'Hayatul Aaiwan' it is recorded that :

"Caliph Mutawwakil ordered breast-beatings to be held at the spot where funeral prayers were offered over the dead body of Imam Ahmad bin Hambal (a founder of one of the Sunni schools of thought). Accordingly, some 25,00,000 persons including Muslims, Jews, Christians and Majusi gathered there and mourned Ahmad bin Hambal with breast-beatings."

It may be noted here that this Caliph, Mutawwakil is the same one who had completely demolished the sacred shrine of the Holy Prophet's grandson, Imam Hussain (a.s). Yet he has so much love and regard for Imam Ahmad Hambal that he not only beats his own breast, but commands other religious group also to follow his example!

What do these sources demonstrate?

From these sources it is evident that to mourn in this way is a natural reaction to distress.

Who in this life can claim that he never and will never beat himself, if he dare to claim that than he just deceive himself! We human being naturally beat ourselves at the time when something make us happy or sad.

We all goes to the conference, meeting, party and other occasions when the time come to cheer someone for what he has done we start clapping ourselves. Some people will clap that their hands become red, but here there is no one to protest that we are hurting ourselves. Not only is there no one to protest but we join other people by beating ourselves with our hands.

Also when we hear surprise or sad news we hit ourselves on the forehead, on our chest or any place in our body. You can see this behavior to all human beings it does discriminate between Sunni, Shia, Christians, Jews or any one. Again we do not hear condemnation from those who accuse the Shia of beating themselves for the sake of Imam Hussain! Take the example from the Bible you see how it is the human nature:

"And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner". (KJV) The Bible, Luke 18:13

Strange is the world to those people who just follow what they have been taught without trying to struggle to find the truth.

Our detractors will argue that self-flagellation is haraam because it causes pain to the body. To counter this we would present these references.

Previously we quoted the book of Muwatta of Imam Malk, that a bedouin came to Holy Prophet (s.a.w) while tearing his hair in front of the holy prophet, is this not the sort of injury oneself? Why did the Holy Prophet (s.a.w) not order the Bedouin to refrain from this action?

The most explicit proof of self inflicted injury comes Owais Qarni, the great Muslim Sahaba, praised by both Shia as well as Sunni erudites, had an immense love for the Holy Prophet (s.a.w). When the news reached him in Yemen that two teeth of the Holy Prophet (s.a.w) were broken in the battle of Ohad, he extracted all his teeth. When the Holy Prophet (s.a.w) got the news in Medina that Owais had struck down all his teeth, he (s.a.w) exclaimed, "Indeed Owais is our devoted friend."

This event can be found written in 'Tazkeratul Aulia' by Sheikh Fariddun Attar, also 'Ihsanul Uyun' commonly known as 'Seerate Halbia' vol II, page 295.

We should point out that breaking one's teeth is a thousand times more painful than the beating of one's chest for a few hours. It is even more extreme than breast beating with chains or knives (Zanjir) because those who have suffered from tooth ache will understand the immense pain that circulates in the mouth and head. Compare the removal of a tooth to the forced removal of a full set of teeth without the benefit of modern day anaesthetic and instruments the pain must have been unbearable. This was clearly an act of great courage.

Some individuals will seek to counter this evidence by stating that as Shia we do not follow the Sahaba and hence this act cannot be relied upon as a precedent. We would like to ask such persons, could you show us a single hadith in which the Prophet (S) condemned this act and issued an edict banning it in the future?

Those who are against mourning for Imam Hussain (a.s) and, for that matter, for any of the martyrs of Karbala usually raise a question whether the Holy Prophet (s.a.w) had ordered for mourning Imam Hussain (a.s). The answer to this question is: 'did the Holy Prophet (s.a.w) ordered Owais Qarni (r.a) to extract all his teeth? Did he insist that the Bedouin to beat his chest? Did he ordered Bilal to beat his head? Similarly there was no order by the Holy Prophet (s.a.w) for Fatima (a.s) to beat her head at the rumour of his martyrdom in Uhud. The reason for the absence of such orders with regards to mourning or even sanction therefore is, however, quite clear. These acts were all done out of love and sorrow and the Holy Prophet (s.a.w) had not forbidden this.

It is quite clear for the holding mourning of Imam Hussain (a.s) by means of beating the chest or Zanjir is to give Physical expression of sympathy for the grief that befall Imam Hussain (a.s) and it expresses nothing but love and loyalty.

Part 2 - Rational and logical proofs

Our fellow Shi'a opposed to mourning rituals usually present their arguments on the following basis.

IMAGE: This is portraying a bad image for the Non Muslims? MESSAGE of Imam Hussain : We are losing the real values of the teachings of Imam Hussain(AS)

Our answers to these two arguments are as follows:

IMAGE:

If Image and blood spill was such an issue then why not examine the other fundamental of Islam. For instance all of the everyday aspects and which is all Wajib:-

Hijab; The kufr and non- Muslims see this as oppression of women, and question why a person should cover herself?

Jehad; The Kufr and non-Muslims see this as radicalism and fundamentalism.

Sacrificing of an animal, lots of blood spill, and the manner which non-Muslims see portray this. How about going around the Kaaba? Kufar find it funny and question why do Muslims circulate around a stone?

Running between "Safa" and "Marwa". Etc?

Circumcision: Obviously a Fardh, is looked as a cruel act by the non-Muslims which we do to new born babies.

The list goes on...

Zaynab[sa] was the first person who hit her forehead to a bar inside the carriage she was in, causing considerable bleeding, when the head of al-Hussain was being paraded in Kufa.

Bihaar al-Anwaar; volume 45, page 114

In India and Pakistan, during Muharram you will find that even Sunnis, Hindus and Sikhs participating in the Marches and taking part in chest beating and self-flagellation. So strong is the love expressed by Hindus and Sikhs to Imam Hussain that they view it as act of worship for which they will receive rewards - a means by which their prayers will be answered? So powerful are the processions in the Indian Subcontinent that Sikhs will even "proclaim" the words "YA ALI MADAD", demonstrating their love for Maula Ali .

If these rituals are portraying such a "BAD IMAGE" then CLEARLY then why are Sunnis and Kaffirs not being turned away from them? We should also point out that the number of converts to Shia'ism in the Indian Subcontinent is very large - rather than being repulsed by these rituals converts are attracted to these rituals. Remember many Sunnis have never heard of Imam Hussain , these rituals bring his martyrdom to the masses.

If image is such posing such problem, let say that Zinjeer of Tatbeer was completely abolished, what is there to say that KUFR are not going to try to Knit pick on the other aspect of Deen as mentioned above?

MESSAGE:

Are we really losing the Message of Imam Hussain(AS) performing by these rituals?

People opposed to the mourning rituals will make comments like:

"Instead of telling the world that Human Rights, Truth, Justice, Integrity is what Imam Husayn stood for we are shown as barbarians who cut the heads of their babies"

The message of Imam Hussain(AS) is strong!! As promised by the Prophet (S), it will remain intact till the day of Judgement!! To say that the message of Imam Hussain(AS) is lost is ludicrous as it goes against the traditions of the Prophet(S).

On the birth of Imam Hussain(AS), when Angel Gabriel informed that this child would be one day be martyred, Lady Fatima(AS) wept and asked the Prophet(PBUMHF) who will be there to mourn for him? , The Prophet(PBUMHF) assured her that group of people shall arise and will mourn her child till the day of Judgement, and he said this in a POSITIVE MANNER. No where did he state that Shias shall indulge in Haram acts, when they will mourn for Imam Hussain(AS).

Had the message really been lost, we would have been seeing a very different Islam today Islam is ALIVE TODAY BEACAUSE OF THEIR(AS) SACRIFICE, therefore on what basis do you state that the Imam Hussain(AS) values and teachings are lost. If this was the case then the ISLAM that we would be seeing today would not have been in the original form.

Common Questions and responses related to Zinjeer and Tatbeer:

Q1: "Imam Hussein when speaking to S. Zainab said "Dear Sister, be tranquil and patient. It is not only the inhabitants of the world that die. Those in the heavens do not also continue to live. everything dies except the Almighty, Who has created the people with His power, and will one day bring them to life again, whereas He Himself is Unique. My grandfather was better than me, my father was better than me. My mother and brother were better than me. It is necessary for every Muslim to follow the Prophet of Allah. Dear sister I administer an oath to you that you will follow my advice. Do not tear your dress on account of my suffering; Do not scratch your face and do not lament"

A1: This tradition is often quoted by those opposed to mourning rituals for Imam Hussain[as]. This alleged tradition contradicts other Sahih hadeeth in which S. Zainab[sa] struck her head with a bar in the carriage.

Clearly it would be illogical for her to do this, had her brother forbade her to do it. Do you really think Zainab[sa] will dissobey Imam e Waqt[as] and her brother?

Zaynab[sa] was the first person who hit her forehead to a bar inside the carriage she was in, causing considerable bleeding, when the head of al-Hussain was being paraded in Kufa. This is one evidence that the shedding of blood is permissible; whether from the head or from the back etc. The infallible Imam Zayn-el-'Aabidin used to address Lady Zaynab al-Kubra by saying to her "You are al-Hamdu-Lillah an untaught scholar" - "Anti al-Hamdu-Lillah 'Alimah Ghayr Mu'allimah"

Bihaar al-Anwaar; volume 45, page 114,

Jalaa' al-'Oyun; volume 2, page 238,

Zaynab al-Kubra; page 112,

Asraar al-Shahadah; page 474,

Al-Muntakhab; volume 2, page 478,

Nusrat-ul-Madhlum; page 18.

Needless to say that 'Allamah al-Majlisi - compiler of Bihaar al-Anwaar - and Sheikh al-Shari'ah al-Isfahani have confirmed the authenticity of the report.

Q2: The post modern Shi'as who deem blood shedding a waste often pose these questions:

Why we can't donate blood-to-blood banks?

Why can't we take flowers to sick people dying of cancer in hospitals?

Why can't we give food to the homeless and needy?

Why can't we show that Imam Husayn sacrificed his life for the basic rights and values that all communities believe in and cherish dearly.

Why can't we practice what we preach?

A2: As followers of the Ahlulbayt(AS) we should be following their teachings and ethics 24 HOURS A DAY, 7 DAYS A WEEK, ALL YEAR AROUND. As followers of the HOLY Progeny, we have all year to:

preach the MESSAGE OF IMAM HUSSAIN and the lessons of Kerbala.

spread the deen of Allah(SWT).

donate the blood to the sick and needy,

give food to the homeless and the needy

ASHURA IS ONE DAY IN A WHOLE YEAR, HOW MUCH BLOOD CAN ONE WASTE IN ONE DAY?

Q3. "It is our duty to deliver Imam Hussain's message to the population of the country we live in. To show we are sincere believers of Islam and hold up the things Imam Husayn stood for."

A3. "There is no problem with this statement what so ever, but what is yet to be proven is that this form of ritual is a) DAMAGING to the message of Imam Hussain(AS) it is HARAAM according to Hukum Shiria. Neither the Prophet(PBUMHF), nor the Imams(AS) forbade Matam in any form, as proven above".

Q4: "Now can you explain the benefits or the message of Maatam and cutting the children's heads or zanjeer maatam and its relation to what Imam Husayn died for?"

A4: We counter such feeble arguments with this question?

What was the benefit of the Owais bin karni smashing his jaw, for going through such grievance?

What was the benefit bedouin of beating and tearing his hair?

What was the benefit of lady Fatima al-Zahra(as), the holy infallible, the lady of light, to beat and mourn the way she(as) did?

Conclusion:

So in Summary we have shown.

Quranic evidence

Evidence from Tarikh

Evidence from Christain sources

Rational proof and logical arguments

The anti Matamis usually present their argument on the basis of "Image" and "Message", which is weak in the light of all the evidence shown above. It is sad that for some reason we always seem to question the validity of anything that is related to Kerbala and Imam Hussain(AS), BUT WHEN IT COMES TO THE HOLY PROPHET(PBUMHF), We don't seem to object heavily to all of the fallacies from the Kufr against our Holy Prophet(pumhf). Indeed the motive of those people are suspicious!

Thus the act of self-flagellation is nothing more than the believer trying to feel as his Master felt and more, realising he cannot be at Karbala the anguish this causes him - the anguish of separation - the helplessness creates this phenomenon of self-flagellation.

But there are many who frown upon self-flagellation owing to various views promulgated about the opinions of the marajae - but different views exist here also and so the reader is urged to consult the maraja he does taqlid of, and not to condemn his brother's actions as there are marajae living today who allow the spilling of blood in self-flagellation and indeed recommend it - it may be your brother is simply following that opinion. However in the end at its very deepest level the practice of self-flagellation is an example of deeply wounded feelings of anguish resulting in an action that is synonymous with it.

It is a co-ordination of the material with the spiritual - a transcendant passion approaching a state that cohesively unites the emotional with the physical - the emotion being pulsing grief, the action the pulsing movements of the flagellant, heart and body acting as one, blood flowing as a result, the intellect having acknowledged its permissibility on the basis of the above examples.

Further, the symbolism is more than even this. In addition to the symbolism of blood that has been spilled and thus sacrificed in the devotee's sympathy with his Master, the King of Martyrs, blood has a sacred meaning none the moreso than with Imam Husain as shown by the blood in the dust given to Umm Salma (sa) turning blood red, and it raining blood elsewhere when the King of Martyrs was beheaded.

The symbolism of the spilling of blood by the devotee, his own blood, is thus symbolic of the very nature of Karbala and brings that event, the supreme sacrifice, to the fore, a sacrifice that for which the lamb was sacrificed instead of his son by a knife by Ibrahim Khalilullah. And what, if Mohammad (saws)'s blood is spilt will man not spill his own blood? And even then the spilling of the blood has a deeper, more personal reason - the heart of worship is love, and here we find love of ahl-ul-bait.

In the world of the spirit the devotee woders how it is that he who was spiritual, whose name meant kindness in its cosmic representation, and whose quality was his famous gentleness, Husain the Lord of the Spirits of the Believers, was treated so cruelly by an unjust material world with suffering that no man has or will bear in the material world. It is this clash of the duality of material and spiritual, with material hurting the spiritual, that excites in the devotee his own spirit's voice, that heart touched by the light of Imam Husain , and since all hearts long for their origin, the believer reciprocates his Master's pain by bringing the material onto that wherein his spirit lies - he cuts his own body which harbours his own spirit, a spirit longing for union with his Master - a Master hurt by a cruel material world that cut his material form and hurt his sensitivities, though his spirit, like that of the believer's endured these calamities.

Thus the act of self-flagellation is nothing more than the believer trying to feel as his Master felt and more, realising he cannot be at Karbala the anguish this causes him - the anguish of separation - the helplessness creates this phenomenon of self-flagellation.

The reader is asked if he cannot understand this to ponder the words repeated by cautious Ulema throughout the ages on this topic who have often passed silence. It was not fear of the self- flagellators and their influence as some say - the Ulema said - Fear the Mother of Husain - that is fear Fatima (sa) - for even if one does not perform this action oneself, if that believer's devotion to her son in this action finds her favour then it would be wrong to condemn him - very, very wrong. The martyrdom of Imam Husain has spiritual dimensions that most men can never truly understand.

2) Mouring & Matam etc...(proof from quran)

Clarification of the Misconceptions About Azadari (Mourning)

A contemporary scholar Mr Abdul Ghaffar in the daily 'Hindustan' dated 21 June 1993 has raised certain objections about the 'Welcome to Mourning' (Istiqbale Aza). Perhaps his one-sided study might have plunged him into misunderstandings. Hence it became imperative for us to clarify his misgivings.

The summary of his objections, based on five premises, which are as follows:

Certainly the assassination of Hussain will kindle fire in the hearts of the believers until eternity, which will never extinguish. It is a tradition from the Holy Prophet (S) ? What is the proof of its authenticity ? The mourning of Prophets (A) before Imam Hussain (A) is a meaningless thing. The survival and resilience of Islam is based on its cardinal principles of Namaz, Roza, Hajj etc. Islam thrives on it and not on mourning of Imam Hussain (A). Mourning and self-flagellation for Imam Hussain (A) is forbidden. Mourning and establishing such gatherings does not have any relevance to the religion. Man should follow Qur'an and Traditions and not the practice of scholars. Now we shall reply to the above-mentioned objections so that the foundation and base of Azadari may become evident to one and all. And none shall remain unaware of the existence found in reliable and authentic traditions. Refutation to the First Objection

"Martyrdom of Hussain kindles such a fire in the hearts of the believers which will never extinguish." This tradition is but a part of a lengthy narration which Imam Sadiq (A) had related from Holy Prophet (S). Complete tradition is quoted below: Imam Sadiq (A) said:

"When Imam Husain (A) came to the Holy Prophet (S), he looked at him, hugged him and said: 'Martyrdom of Husain will generate such a fire in the hearts of believers which will never be extinguished.' Then he said' My parents be sacrificed for him who is the fountain-head of all mourning'. When the companions asked 'What does it mean?' He replied 'That no believer will remember him but mourning and weeping.' The tradition was recorded by a great scholar of 8th Century AH. Shamsuddin Mohammed Aalim (died in 786AH.), who was given the title of' Collection of merits and excellences and total knowledge of the world and hereafter' by Shaikh Mohammed Yusuf Quraishi Shafei in his book 'Majmua' quoted from the book 'Al-Anwaar' written by Shaikh Abu Ali Mohammed bin Abi Bakr Hammam bin Sohail Katib Iskafi (died in 336 AH.), who was student of the renowned Sunni scholar of 3rd century AH. Abdur Razzaq. The narrator of this tradition was Ahmed bin Abi Hiraasa Bahuli, who related from Ibrahim bin Ishaque, who related from Hemad bin Ishaue Ansari, who quoted from Ibn Sinan and who narrated from Imam Sadiq (A). This tradition has surprised our respected brethren Abdur Ghaffar but its authenticity was supported by Bukhari in 'Al Adab Al Mufrad', Ibn Majah in his 'Sunan' in the chapter of Merits of Imam Hassan and Imam Hussain (A). Hakim has written about it in his 'Mustadrak' pg 77 and Ahmad Bin Hambal in his 'Musnad' vol 4, pg 172. Apart from these stalwarts, other traditionalists have also narrated it in their books on the authority of Yali Bin Murrah and Jafar Bin Abdullah Ansari that 'Once the Holy Prophet (S) alongwith his companions was going to attend a feast. He saw Imam Husain (A) playing with his friends. The Holy Prophet (S) moved with agility and wanted to hug him. But when Imam Hussain (A) dodged him smilingly. This made the Holy Prophet (S) to laugh with him and be pleased. Finally he caught Imam Hussain (A) and took him in his arms, kissed him and said: "Hussain is from me and I am from Hussain, Allah likes him who loves Hussain. He is one of my grandsons." Refutation to the Second Objection

He objects that how come past Prophets (A) mourned and wept for Imam Husain (A) before his martyrdom ?

The cause of this question is that Abdul Gaffar considers Prophets to be like ordinary mortals and thinks that they are unaware of the future happenings. While they are gifted with Divine Knowledge due to which they are aware of future happenings. They used to rejoice at joyous occasions and became sorrowful and uncomfortable at the sad incidents. It has been mentioned in reliable traditions that often Holy Prophet (S) mourned for Imam Hussain (A), which was obviously before his martyrdom. The well-known scholar of 10th century A H. Allauddin Muttaqi Hindi in his book 'Kanzul Ummal' has quoted Ibn Abi Shaibah, who has related from Umme Salmah, the wife of Holy Prophet (S), that: "Once Imam Hussain (A) came to Holy Prophet (S) when I was sitting near the door. I saw that Holy Prophet (S) had something in his palm, which was moved by him and weeping profusely. By now Imam Hussain (A) had fallen asleep in his lap. I asked about the matter. He replied: 'Jibreel has brought the sand of the place where Hussain will be martyred and informed me that people of my Ummat will slay him.'" (Kanzul Ummal, vol 2) The great Sunni scholar of 8th century A H., Hafiz Nuruddin Haithami Shafei has related from Tabrani, who has narrated from Hazrat Aisha that: "Once Imam Hussain Bin Ali (A) visited Holy Prophet (S), while he was in the middle of a revelation. He climbed on the shoulders of Holy Prophet (S), Jibrael asked from the Holy Prophet (S) that did he love him? The Holy Prophet (S) replied 'How could I not love my son'. Jibrael said: 'Surely your Ummat will kill him after you'. Then he stretched his hand and handed over a white sand to Holy Prophet (S) and said: 'Your son will be killed on this soil. The place is known as Taff.' After the departure of Jibrael, the Holy Prophet (S) came out, he had the same sand in his hand, he was weeping and he said: 'O Ayesha, Jibrael has informed me that my son Hussain will be killed on the land of Taff. My Ummat will pass through test after me.' Then the Holy Prophet (S) went, weeping profusely. Hazrat Ali (A), Hazrat Abu Bakr, Hazrat Umar and Hazrat Abu Zar were present there. When they all inquired about the cause of grief. He replied: "Jibrael has informed me that, after me, my son Hussain will be killed on the land of Taff. He also gave me the sand and said that it is from his grave." (Majmauz Zawaed, vol 9, pg 187)

Hakim Neshapuri has related a tradition from Umme Fazl that once in her dream she saw the Holy Prophet (S), whose limb got cut and fell in her lap. She related the dream to Holy Prophet (S), He replied "You have seen a good dream. InshaAllah, Fatema will give birth to a child and you will upbring him." Umme Fazl said soon after Fatema gave birth to Husain and I brought him up. Once I took him to Holy Prophet (S). When the Holy Prophet (S) looked at me, his eyes were brimming with tears. When I inquired about the cause of tears. He replied: "Jibrael had come to me and told me that after me, my Ummat will kill my son." I asked "Will it be this son?" He replied in the affirmative. Jibrael also brought reddish sand for me." (Mustadrak Hakim, vol 3, pg 176) Are not these three traditions enough to prove that Prophets, and Holy Prophet (S) in particular, due to Divinely gifted knowledge were well-aware of the martyrdom of Imam Husain (A). They were aggrieved and mourned for him. Refutation to the Third Objection

Undoubtedly Namaz, Fasting and Hajj are from the fundamental principles of Islam and none of the Muslim can repudiate it. But what about those things which are regarded as a matter of belief and related to the emotional feelings like the Oneness of Allah, Prophethood of Hazrat Mohammed (S) or for that matter love of Allah, His Prophet and Ahlul-Bayt. Are not these things also among the obligatory deeds. Are not these things higher than obligatory deeds of Islam? Qur'an and traditions bear testimony to the fact that faith has precedence upon deed. The pre requisite for acceptance of a virtue is correct belief. Belief in Allah and Prophet, Resurrection, avoidance of polytheism and disbelief, enmity with the enemies of Islam, love of Allah, Prophet Mohammed (S) and his Ahlul-Bayt are in fact total and absolute belief. Good deed leads to perfection and elevation of faith. Allauddin Muttaqi Hindi, a great Sunni scholar has recorded a tradition in his book 'Kanzul Ummal' from a great Sunni traditionalist and historian Ibne Asakir that Hazrat Ali (A) related from Holy Prophet (S) who said:

"O Ali! Islam is bare naked, it is covered by piety, its dress is guidance, its adornment is shame, its pillar is abstinence and its base is good deeds. The foundation of Islam is my love and love for myAhlul-Bayt." (Kanzul Ummal, vol 13, pg 90 and vol 6, pg 218) Imamul Mohaddesin Ahmed Bin Hambal has related a tradition from Holy Prophet (S) in which he addressed his cousin Mutallib Bin Rabiah: "By Allah faith will not enter any Muslim's heart unless for the sake of maintaining contact with me and he loves my Ahlul-Bayt (A)." (Musnad Ahmed, vol 3, pg 201) The great traditionalist Hafiz Jalaluddin Suyuti has recorded from Tabrani that the Holy Prophet (S) said:

"Maintain love of my Ahlul-Bayt. Meet Allah in such a way that you maintain love with us. He will enter into paradise by our intercession. I swear by the One who holds my life in His hands that no deed will be accepted unless we Ahlul-Bayt approve of it." (Ahyaul Mayyit, Tradition No 18) Hence if Namaz, Fasting, Zakat and Hajj are compulsory acts of Islam then the base of these acts is veritable faith and belief, which includes love of Ahlul-Bayt. Since Imam Hussain (A) is very much from Ahlul-Bayt, heartly attachment and love for him according to authentic tradition forms an indispensable condition for the veritability of faith. At this juncture a question arises that if by Qur'anic injunction and religious instruction someone loves Imam Hussain (A) from the depth of heart then is it possible that he will remain unmoved at his calamity and he will not express grief for him? Therefore, we say that if Namaz, Fasting, Hajj and Zakat are pillars of Islam and its establishment are intact eternity of Islam. Then it is amply proved by traditions that love of Ahlul-Bayt and love of Imam Hussain (A) and mourning on him, which is an offshoot of love of Ahlul-Bayt, is the foundation of Islam. Its establishment is a pre-condition for establishing Islam. Refutation to the Fourth Objection

The reply to this objection becomes evident from the earlier reply though. Allah, the Almighty, says in Qur'an:

"O Prophet say that I do not ask of you any reward except the love for my kindred" (Shura: 22).

Hence according to this verse love of Prophet (S), Ahlul-Bayt and Imam Hussain (A) is compulsory. And the best expression of love is to be pleased in the happiness of the beloved and to express grief at his sorrow. Hence mourning on Imam Hussain (A) for Muslims who believe in this Qur'anic verse is compulsory. Factually speaking, it is highly surprising how can a Muslim dare to differ from clear injunctions of Qur'an and traditions and opine that act which is a part of belief is forbidden. It is really astonishing that how will this man face the Holy Prophet (S) and his Ahlul-Bayt on Qiyamat and how will he expect their intercession. Is not there the story of Hazrat Yaqub (A) in Qur'an? Who wept at the separation of his son Hazrat Yusuf (A) for an age. So much so that he was blinded. While Hazrat Yusuf was not tormented by thirst, nor was he brutally killed, neither his sons were killed in his arms, his corpse was not trampled under the hoods of the horses, his tent was not set ablaze and even his women folk were not made captive. Respected Sir Abdul Gaffar what you suggest that while following the practice of Hazrat Yaqub (A) how much shall we mourn? Before the event of Karbala the Holy Prophet (S) often mourned for Imam Hussain (A). After the demise of Holy Prophet (S), Janabe Fatema (A) mourned for him so much that according to the narration of Ibne Sa'ad she was not seen smiling even for a day. Imam Zainul Abedeen (A) mourned for his father for his entire lifetime. Whenever a sheep was slaughtered and its head separated he used to say: "My father's head was chopped off in the same manner. The son of the Prophet was slain in this way."

Now we seek a reply from Janab Abdul Gaffar - why should we stop mourning and expressing grief on Imam Hussain (A) which is an Islamic principle, and a Sunnat of Holy Prophet (S). In the end we request Janab Abdul Gaffarthat about any religious matter unless he does not make impartial study and investigations he should not pursue the matter blindly otherwise his actions will be nothing but plain waste. We also suggest that he should refer some of the Sunni books like Maqtal-al-Husain by Mowaffeq Bin Ahmad Khwarizmi Hanafi, Qurratul Ain fil Baka Alal Husain by Mohammed Mobin Tanava Hanafi, Sawadul Ain fi Rethail Husain by Abu Bakr Hadrami Shafei, Fasle TarjamatuI Imam Al Husain Az Tarikhe Damishq by Ibn Asakir and such other books and compilations. And he should accept the religious factuality of Imam Hussain (A) and cease associating with the enemies of Islam thus causing a rift in the unity of the Muslims. He should know that some of the most difficult stages on the Day of Qiyamat will be giving explanation of such verdicts and rulings which a man makes inadvertently. There are such traditions in Sihahe Sitta where it is mentioned that on the Day of Quiyamat angels will bring some companions to the Fountain of Kausar and they will turned away because they did not fulfil their rights towards Holy Prophet (S).

wa salam

[Guest Javanmard]

Bhai Gurdas on the Prophet Muhammad (AS)

Dear readers

1. I'll translate the relevant portion and I'll stick to ISO conventions ("A" stands for long "a" and "I" stands for ling "i"):

Text:

ikasi-ikasi brahmandi vici dasi dasi kari avatAra utArA /

kete bedi biAs kari kaI kateba muhammada yArA /

kudarati iku etA pAsArA /

Glossary:

ikasi-ikasi: locative of iku: one

brahmandi: locative of brahmandu: world (sansk: egg of Brahma)

vici: locative postposition : in

dasi dasi:locative of dasa:ten *locative used here with instrumental use

avatAra: nominative plural of avatAru (sansk: avatAra, ava-TR; to descend) :descent (of the Divine) avatAra is not to be confused with the Christian concept of Incarnation. theophany would be a good semantic equivalent

utArA: nominative : passage accross, deliverance (same root as TR for avatAra)

kete kete: plural of ketA : how much?, how many?

bedi biAs: nominative: Veda Vyasa, rishi who composed the Mahabharata and the Bhagavatapurana

kari: absolutive with past tense meaning: he/she created

kateb: plural of kitab: four books of the Abrahamic tradition: Torah, Psalms, Gospels and Qur'an

Muhammada: Prophet Muhammad

yArA: nominative: friend, dear one

kudarati: nominative: power, God's power, omnipotence, creation

iku:nominative: one

etA: nominative : so many

pasArA: spread, extent expanse

Translation

In one* universe he came as the ten avataras

He created so many dear ones such as the Veda's Vyasa and the Kateb's Muhammad**

His One power*** has spread into so many.

* could alternativerly also be translated as "in each one of these universes" referring to the many universes emanating from the pores of Akal Purakh.

** parallelism : Ved Vyas - Kateb Muhammad

*** kudarati having many meanings I chose "power" as I find it more appropriate as it deals here with Akal Purakh's creative power. But one could easily refer to it as "nature" or "creation" as well.

Commentary

This pauri's main point is the notion of multiple universes and the relationship between microcosm and macrocosm as well as the process of manifestation. it should be noted that Muhammad and Ved Vyas are qualified as yArA or dear ones or friends. In one acount of the miraj of the Prophet, Muhammad sees another Muhammad in another universe. THis confirms the belief in the multiplicity of universes which has unfortunately been repudiated by Sunni scholars due to their reading of Aristotle.

In Bachitar Natak the Mahadin figure is allegorical. There is not a single time where the Prophet is known as Mahadin in any islamic or nonislamic work and this means that we are dealing here with a wordplay. Mahadin is not an arabic word, it can't be found as a proper name in any arabic dictionary and is not found as one of the many titles of the Prophet (looked myslef: did not find; confirmed by my colleagues who teach arabic). The Prophet was called by different names such as Ahmad, Mustafa etc.. But Mahadin never appears neither in the lists of names nor in any arabic dictionnary. Of course it plays with its homophony with Muhammad but still it is not exactly Muhammad i.e. a word play is here intended. Mahadin is an allegorical figure inspired by the historical Muhammad but who represents the exoteric Sunni Islam. My take on it is that it is a hybrid word (so typical and characteristic of Guru Gobind SIngh's compositions see Jaap Sahib) composed by a Sanskritic half and an arabo-persian other half. maha (sansk. great) and din (arab. religion or creed)= the great religion referring to its geographical and political expansion (he conquered Arabia...). As such it would refer to the Islam of the Sunnis and its characteristic exoterism. Sunni Islam (and even some branches of Shia Islam such as the official Iranian version of ithnasharia) is characterised by a strict and sometimes very blind adherence to the external aspect of religion. What Maharaj is telling us here is that all these religions were brought about by Akal Purakh but that they started caring more for the exeternal aspect of religion than for the research of the Truth inside of each one of us. Don't forget that Bachitar Natak is, from its title a natak, a play. Indian drama is mainly allegorical specially during the medieval period. Guru Gobind Singh uses the language of allegory in this part of the composition as he is talking about higher mystical realities as most mystics do when talking about those matters. The SIkhi of Guru Gobind Singh (certainly not the SGPC's) is the religion that not only sticks to the inner and true meaning or religion but also invites other religious traditions to do the same.

Insulting any prophet or avatar is a sin for any Sikh!!! :evil:

[sikh_fauge]

So lalleshvari, are u a khalsa? i.e have u taken amrit??

I like ur open mindedness..its refreshing and real nice

As long as u dnt lose focus of ur sikhi and the gurus message keep doing what ur doing.

I dont have any dispute with u, infact its a nice change from the pro hindu sikhs u get. Nice to see theres a balance in our panth

Anyhoo u need to tell me what all those words u used (first few paragraphs mean); im not familiar with them (most my mates are sunnis and we dnt discuss relegion, because they have bigoted views.)

[sikh_fauge]

Ur last post was a good read. So u think guru ji was referring to shias?

What do u make of the line in bani where guru ji says dnt beleive in the koran?? Doesnt that reject islam? (and indirectly the prophets.)

Also, this doesnt fulfil gurus shabad on other prophets and and saints and how they brought about their own sect and didnt follow akal purkh and were engrossed in maya i.e mohammed.

I agree NO ONE should slander any devotee of god, regardless of their sprititual level. That includes each other

[sikh_fauge]

i meant to say sunnis in the first line!

[Guest Javanmard]

Guruji does not say reject the Qur'an, He says: reading Qur'an will not bring you nearer to God if you don't do simran and have compassion. Also Qur'an and any scripture is the Path not the Goal. Some people spend their life hankering after the Path like an idaol whereas it is the Goal that is important in the end!

[sikh_fauge]

Yes thats true..but isnt bani put on a higher platform then, why bani tells u that we acheive salvation with the gurus words i.e gurbani?

[sikh_fauge]

(Im not stirring trouble veera, jst want to learn more! )

[Guest Javanmard]

Yes for us SIkhs but for other Guru maharaj is telling them to practice their own religion with sincerity and compassion that's why he tells Muslims how to be real Muslims and vaishnavs real Vaishnavs. That's why there used to be so many Muslim nanakpanthis. Why else would Guru harigobind have built a mosque for his Muslim followers?

[sikh_fauge]

Yup..and why else did muslims perform kirtan at harmandir sahib prior to british rule

[Guest Javanmard]

Absolutely!!! The Rababis were Muslim Nanakpanthis and sang at Darbar Sahib. It's only through the fanaticism of the heretic Teja Singh Bhasaur (btw. mentor of Randhir Singh AKJ :twisted: ) that they were kicked out.

Can you believe it? the very blood of Bhai Mardana!

Disgusting!!! :evil:

[HeyDudesWassup]

lalleshvari, why the evil smiley thing besides Bhai Randhir Singh Ji's name? He cut all ties with Teja Singh when Teja Singh was excommunicated.

[Guest Javanmard]

lalleshvari, why the evil smiley thing besides Bhai Randhir Singh Ji's name? He cut all ties with Teja Singh when Teja Singh was excommunicated.

1.I really don't want to sound horrible (but I will) but had he really cut off all his links he would have taken amrit again as Teja Singh was one of his panj pyare. Nowhere in his autobiography does it mention him taking amrit again.

2. Teja Singh Bhasaur is still quoted in many AKJ articles on the issue of Ragmala as a "chardi kala singh" which clearly proves that they have only severed ties with him through lip service (see tapoban.org on Ragmala)!!! Fact is that 99% percent of their ideology comes from the Bhasaur Singh Sabha.

As this is not part of the discussion anyway I will not comment any further on this issue as I feel personal disgust talking about those people.

[nirgun]

I feel personal disgust talking about those people

:roll:

Bhai Randhir Singh Ji was a Brahm Giani, a brave Khalsa, an amazing Sant. Poor lallshvari. I hope God has kirpa on you, sis.

sa(n)th kaa dhokhee sadhaa apavith ||

The slanderer of the Saint is forever impure.

sa(n)th kaa dhokhee kisai kaa nehee mith ||

The slanderer of the Saint is nobody's friend.

sa(n)th kae dhokhee ko ddaan laagai ||

The slanderer of the Saint shall be punished.

sa(n)th kae dhokhee ko sabh thiaagai ||

The slanderer of the Saint is abandoned by all.

sa(n)th kaa dhokhee mehaa aha(n)kaaree ||

The slanderer of the Saint is totally egocentric.

sa(n)th kaa dhokhee sadhaa bikaaree ||

The slanderer of the Saint is forever corrupt.

sa(n)th kaa dhokhee janamai marai ||

The slanderer of the Saint must endure birth and death.

sa(n)th kee dhookhanaa sukh thae ttarai ||

The slanderer of the Saint is devoid of peace.

sa(n)th kae dhokhee ko naahee t(h)aao ||

The slanderer of the Saint has no place of rest.

Waheguru, please save all the lost souls and teach them the true way.