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determinism in sikhi

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hello all,

I was wondering how much we believe in determinism within sikhi?...my reason for asking this is to understand the whole concept of tradition. If traditions have been kept in tact, simply because they have been practiced from day one, then I can understand where reformers come in, to alter the current day practices....as a natural part of life is evolution.

Where people are being subjected to ill treatment etc, I don't think tradition or a deterministic approach to life should ever condone or allow the condoning of people being categorized and picked upon.

In sikhi, for example...there are those who look at castes, practices, rehits, traditions as something that should be carried on because "they have always been done", this mindset then elicits the "guru sahib did it, and said it...and I have to do it, ....it must be holy?"....to the supreme "taking a quote from some other context and applying it to the scenario and preaching it as gospel".

I am of the firm opinion that we should do like those great people of the past...take what has been given to us and celebrate the magnificence and

excellence of our traditions (which I firmly believe are grounded in virtuous traditions...even things like shastarvidiya..which is an art for those who are one with it).

sat sri akal

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I meant deterministic in a general sense

but deterministic when applied to caste for example would be...if you are a high caste, you were meant to be born as one and according to what has been established you DESERVE a specific treatment....

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ah i see...

well, your example of using castes kinda sucks, cuz Sikhs aren't even supposed to believe in that, so now imma have to use something else as an example to explain my point...

Gurbani doesn't really give us a specific outlook on life as being either deterministic or non-deterministic. in a lot of places, we are told that it's our own actions that bring us pain/happiness/whatever and in a lot of other places, we are told that we are given whatever we get from God. so in a sense, Gurbani tells us that we have free will, yet at the same time says that we live out our lives according to destiny.

for example. if someone dies of cancer, most people will say that it was the person's destiny to die of cancer because the cancer patient couldn't have done anything to prevent or bring on his disease. but at the same time, it's possible that his past actions can provide some sort of insight into why he died of cancer. it could be that in a previous life, he had denied someone else of proper treatment and thus, caused someone's death and something similar happened in this life.

but now that i'm thinking about this topic... i have another idea...

it's possible that Gurbani is saying that we are destined to suffer through whatever ordeals we get in our lives because of our previous karma... but it's up to us to deal with those ordeals in whatever way we choose which would determine what happens to us after we die....

as for what people believe... well, i think most of us subscribe to the free will way of thinking, simply because a lot of us have been exposed to it. but i wish i knew exactly what kind of situation you're referring to in terms of deeming a deterministic approach of life as wrong. you've mentioned the caste system thing a couple of times, but i can't comment on that since the caste system was supposed to be abolished by our Gurus. but the fact that it still exists today is a big problem anyways.

as per why most people continue to think like that... well, let's just say that it's hard for most people to break bad habits...

i'm sorry if i confused you, but i just typed whatever came into my head... :oops:

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From my understanfing, drawof is referring to traditions, and whether following them (of course, certain practises) are valid/applicable to this day and age, and if they fit into todays society; i.e. do we change our traditions to suit today..or do these traditions have to be maintained, at all costs..urmmm..at least i think this is what u mean :oops:

Im curious about this too..

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