sants today

[rupsingh]

Gur Fateh

I was surfing the internet this morning when i cam across the following post on another sikhi forum . it starts of as a simple question of whether to bow to sants or not. The replies of the post are alarming to say the least in respect to the points raised. If this is type of things Sants get up to these days, it is understandable why people are getting further and further form the idea of sants! All it does is to arm further the people who are already against sants. I believe Sants should be respected because of the instiution they respect, the clothes they wear. But in this day and age it is harder and harder to do so. The post is included below:

VJKK VJKF

A good friend of mine is a shardalu of a sant and we usually go to the local gurdwara on our lunch breaks. We recently went to the gurdwara and he took me outside of a room, where the sant stays when he is at the Gurdwara. The door for the room was locked and he bowed down in front of the room to which I was quite surprised.

I have also seen some people stand up to welcolme sants in the presence of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. I have read that sant Kartar Singh (DDT) wouldn't enter a divan hall when people would stand up to greet him as he thought it was direspectful to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, the great king of kings.

As I understand a sant is a mahapursh that has a great spiritual level of understanding and I have alot of respect and pyar for them as they are great souls who are playing their part in keeping great rehat within some gurdwaras. Therefore I feel to respect them is good as we might learn something from them that will increase our level of spirituality and gyan. But the question is how far do we go to show respect? and if we bow to them (or a room?) are we disrespecting guru ji?

I would be grateful if any one could clarify this for me, as I see this happening quite often. Also if some one could post an example of how great mahapurshes were treated during the physical life of the 10 Gurus.

Thank you for your help,

VJKK VJKF

REPLY 1

It was always the respect of Shabad not the body. Guru Nanak Dev Sahib Jee were respected due to Shabad inside them. Guru Gobind Sahib Jee were respected due to Shabad inside them. The Shabad has been now residing in Guru Granth Sahib Jee, hence just need to bow Guru Granth Sahib Jee.

That does not mean, you don't respect others. But to bow (to sacrifice or to surrender) is only to Guru.

All these so-called Saints have attained this Vadyaaye through Guru Granth Sahib Jee, then why not hold tight to the limitless sea and bow or sacrifice to Guru Sahib Jee, instead of being in confused state.

Reply 2

it hurts me so much to see this

after watching this so often, it feels like sunts are TUG. i have seen it so much. a relative of my friend is a big shardalu of baba maan singh pihowa (i didnt say sant, explane it soon), and when baba comes and he does lot of sewa of maan singh. he even gave him lot of money. now hez kinda in bad situation cuz maan singh now frequently ask him for money so openly. for more than once, maan singh asked (actually ordered ) him to produce 5 grands and 7 grands in few hours.

now, why i dont respect this 'Bhekhee'. In New York richmond hill gurughar (i was there) he was doin katha (or whatever its called cuz its not keertan of shabd and not only katha vichar of a shabad, most of em usually sing these kavitas) . he said, " THERE ARE SOME SHABAD IN GURU GRANTH SAHIB JI THAT CAN NOT BE PUT IN 'VIAKHAYA' IN FRONT OF BEEBEEYAN". then he looked at granthy ji to get is vote in this but granthy ji was motionless. there was no response from granthy ji against this "KOOR" by this so called sunt. no one did anything. i was looking at the granthy ji and other high positioned guru pyarey. i was hurt to see this guy insulting guru ji. if anyone says anything sangat goes "these SHOKREY making trouble in gurughar and insulting sants"

we gotta be awared from these pakhandees

im sure i have insulted many guru pyare by my posting. it is so true. i havnt wrote the stuff that i heard, if i had the list would've been endless.

bhul chook maff jio

gur fateh

Reply 3

think through meditation and Gurbani few people can get to level of knowing the feeling of others and may be read others mind.

This opportunity makes them to become Sant. No true Sant will have

people bow in front of him or her. He or She will direct the people

to bow in front of Guru Granth Sahib only.

Becoming Sant and make people follow his or her teachings is a leadership

quality. Or some times It is passed on by the dynasty.

Although many Sants have their Dera based on Guru's teaching and preach the teachings of Guru and convence people to become kesdhari Sikh and

teach them to become Amritdhari the main object is have faith in the Sant himself that is why they always sing the shabads having sant word in it,

That is why people are attached to Sants (So called) and Deras like Dodra,

Various branches of Taksals, Baba Man singh etc. etc. IT Is these sants who allow the people to touch their feet.

They claim that with out Sant one can not understand the Gurbani, They say that there has to be some Mahapurakh or teacher to teach.

But the sensible people know that greatest teacher, Mahapurakh, Sant,

Guru is Guru himself. "Guru Granth ji Maniyo pragat Guran ki de "

All these Deras who have their own set of rules under the cover of teaching or preaching Gurbani is nothing more than a Cult.

[tSingh]

As usual this is the danger in discussing such issues. People grossly stereotype. For example, a young punjabi sikh goes home and a pakistani muslim lad nicks his bike, it's human psychology that the sikh boy now hates (and inwardly fears) ALL muslim boys! Likewise with Sant Babay to my mind. In any group of people whether sikh, hindu, muslim, christian, of any profession of any background...a percentage will be dodgy, some mindless and maybe a few good. Likewise with Sants, Khalistanis, Gyanis, Amritdharis, Sehajdharis, Jathedars, everyone are the same.

So, a Sant in principle is more often than not someone who has chosen a virakat lifestyle as a means to attain brahmgyan, to attain the highest levels of vigyan and ultimately mukti. Akin to any group of renunciates whether it be wandering qalandhars, sadhus, sants a proportion of them maybe pakhandis looking for money or pleasure, or those who have not been able to finally throw off maya, or those who are lost and confused, etc. So this is nothing new.

Now, personally I believe that the root cause of much of these problems nowadays is;

a) some modern sant babay no longer have a prmpra and consequently no longer practice puratan maryada

there has been a decrease in learning and practice

c) due to dumbing down of sikhi there has been an increase in lost and confused sangat

On point a, I personally feel that the old system is being lost, and this will produce incomplete or badly minted babay. Traditionally speaking, a Sant (of one of the four samprdas) would be attached to a gurdev. The complete training would be potentially a life long process. This meant the shish would be required to spend a lot of intense time with the gurdev. If the gurdev was a mahapurush, then the shish would take on all the characteristics (not just the vidya, but the moral precepts, maryada, etc also) of the gurdev. Tradition was imparted this way, maryada was passed on this way also. Nowadays we have a situation in which people are making themselves Sant Babay, without a gurdev, without having a recognised prmpra, and are then expected to guide sangat! What ever comes out of their mouths is heard as gold, and those lost among the sangat project onto that individual an image or ideal they themselves selfishly want in return (a granter of mukti, a saviour, god itself). This is the process of cult formation.

Now the tradition of respecting mahapurush is as old as time immemorial. And since sikhi is a meritocracy, it is right to show respect to mahapurush appropriately. Touching someone's feet is a basic sign of respect shown to parents, grandparents, and is certainly not manmat.

In puratan maryada, as has been ellucidated by others, there exists different levels of Guru. The respect is accorded to each in regard to it's status. Therefore a Nirmala will hold respect for his or her ishtadev, Guru Maharaj. He or she will also hold respect for the vidyaguru but essentially not of the same nature. Therefore in a Nirmala dera Guru Maharaj is ALWAYS the ishtadev, never the Mahant.

Now on the question of why these Sants exist in the first place. Well, taking the Nirmalay, they were created by Guru Maharaj to expound adhyaatmic vidya to the masses, to educate, to enlighten. This is the wish of Guru ji himself. Where they do not exist usually the sangat is worse off. Otherwise we end up with people who drive robin reliants telling us how to drive a rolls royce; someone who has not tasted that sweetness cannot help others taste it. Someone who is not pure inside cannot be pure outside, this is basic gurbani! So a Nirmala is meant to be educated in the finer meanings of gurbani and secondly (and most importantly) to have acted upon them, to have turned this gyan into vigyan. This is why they study only aadhyaatmic vidya and why they are at once in principle at least scholars and saints.

So to summarise, I feel that the prmpra tradition is in principle (not always in practice) a safeguard against nakli sant babay as you have a gaurentee of vidya/learning and of good role model at least. This prmpra is usually there for all to see. With this also comes sound tradition. Showing appropriate respect to such vidvans is not manmat.

[Sukhi]

i have issues with pakhundee babay. i also have issues with ppl complaining about bowing down to mahapurakhs. i agree with tSingh. it's about showing appropriate respect.

think about it like this: if you greet ur friends by sayin "hey nigga's, wazzup?!"... i'm sure you wouldn't talk to your grandparents in the same way regardless of how friendly you are with them...

[Guest]

i would ma niggaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa'z

[Guest]

tsingh, sukhi ji you smashed it

[Sukhi]

i would ma niggaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa'z

yeah, but ur an exceptional case init... lol..