Worship of idols/picture of Gurudevs in hindu temples.

[vijaydeep Singh]

Ek Oankar Wahiguru Ji Ki Fateh

Das first of all want to post that this which will follow are not directed towards any person or group of them.In case it appeares than it is due to the wrong way of presentation of Das. Das in advance seeks an appology for that.

Das will quote Panchjanya(RSS 's news paper),Some views similar to Kala Afghana, Kuran Sahrif(muslim holy Book) and swami Agnivesh(An Ary Samaji Saint of India,Who is respected Panth also,his best thing liked by DAS is that he carrys out rescue of bonded labouerers). But this does not means that Das supports all of thier views. All views are personal views of DAs.

Today is 400th fisrt Prakash of our Eestt Guru(Divine guide) Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Das belongs to that school of Sikhs who belive that Dasam Granth Sahib Ji is as per Gurmat. Das could say our Jesus is Adi Guru Darbar,Our Old Testment is Dasam Granth Ji and our New Testement is Sarbloh Granth JI.(If such simlies have hurt someones feeling then Das be informed and if this thing is incorrect then das seeks an appolgy and sangat forgive Das for equating Adi Guru Darbar with others).

Today we are told to put candles or electric lights on our roof tops. Das could not do this but is trying to put some light on a grave topic.

Thier is a place in old Delhi Sitaram Bazar,The Gurudwara over thier has many pictures of deitis OF HINDUS NEAR IT.

But still worse as it apperas to das is many hindu temples having picture ,idols etc. of Gurus installed in them. They are garlended,Given offering of food and money and Arti is also done of them.This is more true in Hardwar and mandirs of Punjabis in delhi/up/haryana.

Das thinks it is wrong. As in Jaffernamah Guru dev Called himself as butshikan ie breakers of idols. Perhaps(das is not sure) 266th Chariter of Rankhamb Kala in triya chariter are also full of anti idolatory statements.

In Vachitar Natak too Gurudev clearly state,'who ever will deem be supereme lord(ie God) will go to lake of hell' (This thing was repeated by Swami Agnivesh Ji while speaking at an occasion oof GuruParb at Gurudwara Rakabganj Sahib,He told Sikhs to not to belittle thier God not following Guru(this was actual crux of his saying but not exact wording) ). So is worshipping of picture by hindu brothers due to thier lack of knowledge of Gurubani is valid?

Are not our own missionarries be blamed for that that they have so far not carried out any movement to erradicate similar practises in Sikh homes too. So it is our duty to let our hindu brethren be awre of Gurubani and know how to worship true God Akal. This will be real respect to our Gurus ahs they never told us to worship them but to worship Akal.

It is our duty to tell hindus about some of thier hisotry,Within the hundrerd years of Arab conquest of Sindh,Indian(Better Call them Sanatan Dhrami) forces recapture lost territory due to the unity effort of Niranakars worshippers Nath yogis. But two city states of Mansura and Multan remained under islam.Reason,Whenever Sumer Rajpoots use to attack them,They use to blackmail them by bringing out few idols in thier(Arabs) possesion and threatening to Break them if they(Arabs) were Attacked. Later after Karmathi Shias occupation of Multan ,Idols were ultimately broken(Reference An issue of Panchjanya,mouth piece of RSS).

Idols were not worshipped in old Sanatan Dhrama,They have crept in after Jainsiam and budhism came into being,since them India became a sort of hunting ground for invaders. Vedas and Vedanata oppose idolatory so do Gurumat.

Lastly Das will quote holy Kuran,It is told in there,' oh idol worshippers you do this only as your bygone genration did it(it is more a sort of bliend copying),God(Allah/Akal/Parbraham) is ture God Which benefits you in reality,Give you Shifa(recovery) in illness'.

If any thing wrong is said Das be kindly told and das will again tender an appology.

[Sukhi]

everyone has their own ways of worshipping the Eternal. why do you wanna force your way on them? if they can see God in a stone murti, and choose to worship God by doing that, let them continue. it's not our place to criticize their dharma. instead of doing that, we'd be better off working on whether we ourselves follow our own dharma properly.

[CaNaDiAn_jAtTi]

To support sukhi's post.... have u ever heard of Bhagat Dhanna Jatt

[vijaydeep Singh]

Ek Oankar Wahiguru Ji Ki Fateh

Das appriciates your views. Das agrees that salvation could be obtained by worshipping stone as in the case of Bhakt Dhanna Ji as he had a true devotion. And for getting salvation being is obtained if God bestowed onto you(this is general you and not directed to anyone) the true devation(bhakti).

Sikhism cannot force self views unto other. Case resin by Das is differnt. As Das was himself a hindu sometime back and many of his hindu relative still have similar practices in thier homes. In fact das use to do such acts as an idol of First Satguru was kept in 'temple' like structure in his old home and while offering water,curd ,milk on Shiva phallus(Shiv lingam) Das also use to put flowers in front of the idol of First Master.

During BA Final year Das underwent a study of Braj Bhasha and Bhojpuri.They lead to understanding of verses made by Gurus and Bhakts.

One from Tenth Master written in perhaps Dasam Granth as follow.Such verses lead das to oppose idolatory tooth and nail. This thing has to be agreed that there was no force but divine knowledge bestowed by Gurudev that ended Das's idolatory. Why not the same divine knowlegde be used to enlightened hindu brothers and sisters.

In case of Dhanna Bhakt he did not have books like Dasam Granth to guide him unlike us which give direction to devotion by knowledge. And worship of idol more often is done as a mere ritual than with devotion.Problem with us is that our missionarries have not this knowlegde reach out to non Sikh brethern.Thats what das want from all Khlasa. If someone is doing rather undesirable act than it needs to be discouraged.

There is no proof ever that during the time of Gurudevs they ever told us to worship thier idol.But Tenth Master said this

Das is just changing the script.If meanings are not understood do not hesitate to ask for it.

Kaha bhyo jo ati hit chit kar baho bidhi sila pujai,

Pooj thake pahan ko parsat kachho kar siddi na ayee,

Achhat dhoop deep arpat hain pahan kachho na khai hain,

....

Kewal Ek sharan sawmi bin yo nahin kate udhaar.

Das only wants to requests Sikhs that instead of closing an eye to idolatory of hindus better is that we all try to let them learn Akal Purakh.

About whom it is said in Chupaye sahib.

Ta ko kar Pahan anumant,Mah morh kuchh bhed na janat.

Imagining that(God) as stone,Super fool does not know (even)little(of) secret(of God)

[Sukhi]

um... ok... vijaydeep... look... i understand where ur coming from.

but... if the Gurus in their time with all of their knowledge were okay with letting other ppl worship whichever way they wished as long as they did with a pure heart, who are we to contradict them and try to convert others?

look... the entire reason CJ brought up the story of bhagat Dhanna jee is because it tells you that if you truly believe in God, anything is possible. it's not necessarily the idol-worshipping that's the problem. the problem is not having faith.

how about we go about our own business and treat other religions with the respect they deserve and leave them to worship God in whichever way they choose to and devote our time to our own bhagti of the Almighty...

[CaNaDiAn_jAtTi]

All people have different forms, ways of praying to the almighty, who are we to judge in the end....

Focus on how you are as a Sikh and let the rest be, because there's a reason for the way everything happens...

[vijaydeep Singh]

Ek Oankar Wahiguru Ji Ki Fateh

brother /SISTER

das bows to yuor tolerance to other faiths and respect your views. but only after realisng what is making hindu suffers does das wrote this post.

It is for thier benefit that they come to our fold of Khalsa or Sanatan Dhrama and if they do not come then also we will try over level best to serve them. Is not this true that our Ninth Master gave him selve to protect thier religious marks. Das is only trying to let them wake up to fend themselves lest it is too late. And rest is given below.

LASTLY WHY DAS WANTS TO PLUG THE EVIL OF IDOL WORSHIPPING AT SOURSE IE HINDUISM. METIONING OF SINDH EPISODE IS OF IDOL BRAKING WAS GEVEN ONLY FOR THAT.

SUPPOSE FATHER OF DAS ARE IN ARMY.EXPERT IN ANTI TERRORISM. TOUGHT A STYLE OF ANTI TERRORIST OPERATIONS. THAN AFTER HIM SOME ONE OPENS A TERORIST TRAINING SCHOOL SO IS NOT THAT THING AN INSULT TO HIM AND SHOULD NOT DAS TRYS TO END IT. WHEN GURUDEV OPPOSED THE IDOLATORY WHOLE LIFE AND HIS OWN IDOLS ARE MADE TO BE WORSHIPPED IS NOT THAT AN INSULT TO HIM. HUMAN OR OTHER LIVING MANIFESTATIONS ARE ROLE MODEL FOR US,THEY ARE RESPECTED BY US BUT NOT NOT NOT EVER BE WORSHIPPED. TERRORIST TYPE ACTS AGAINST BRITISH OCCUPATION WERE TERMED AS FREEDON FIGHTING BUT NOW IT IS ANTI NATIONAL SO IF IDOL WORSHIPPING WAS OK AT THE TIME OF BHAGAT DHANNA IT WAS DUE TO NON AVAILABILTY OF SIKH HOLY SCRITPTURE WHICH ARE NOW WITH US.

IDOLATORY DOES HARM HINDUS AS IT IS OTHER SIDE OF SECTERNALISM,REGIOLAISM,CASTEISM ETC. HOW ?

IN ANDHRA IDOLS ARE OF TIRUPATI(IN FACT pANTHLU IE PANDIT OF VAISHANV SCHOOL DOES NOT ENTER SHIVALYA OF SHAIVA,ANT AP IS LARGEST GROUND OF CONVERSION OF HINDUS INTO SEMITIC FAITHS AS UNITY LACKS THERE),IN ORRISA THEY ARE OF JAGGANANTH,IN GUJRAT SAY SAWAMI NARYANA AND IN KASHMIR SAY KSHEER BHAVANI. ANY HARM TO ANY INDIVIDUAL DEMI GOD FRON ENEMY MAY NOT GET HELP 'BY HEART' FROM OTHER REGION. HOW FIRCE IS COMPETETION AMONG THEM ALL THAT FAHTER OF DAS HAS RECENTLY GOT DIKSHA OF KRISHNA WORSHIPPING SECT. HE HAS BEEN DIRECTED TO REMOVE THE IDOLS OF OTHER DIETIES FROM TEMPLE IN HOME. DAS 'S MOTHER WORSHIP RAMA SO SHE HAS BROUGTH RAMAS IDOL IN ANOTHER HOUSE REST ARE GIVEN TO PANDITS.

BUT SAY TO UNITE ALL HINDUS WORSHIP ONE DEMI GOD SAY BHARAT MATA OR RATHER BRING THIS THINGS ON SIKHS.ONE OF HIS FELLOW SIKH IS FROM FAMILY WHO WERE BRAHAMINS. THAT DOCTER BROTHER COMMENTED UPON PUNJABI SIKHS SAYING THEY ARE 'HINDUS WITH TURBAN' AND THIER DIETY IS ADI GURU DARBAR IE THEY WORSHIP GURU LIKE A DUMB IDOL WITHOUT UNDERSTANDING WHAT IS WRITTEN IN THIER(DAS SEEKS AN APPOLOGY FOR WHAT IS LIKE CROSSING THE LIMIT BUT JUST BOWING WITHOUT UNDERSTANDING IS OF NO USE). SO FOR THAT REASON TENTH NANAK NEVER LEFT EARTH.

THE TRINITY OF GURU IS IN SIKHS TOO, GURUBAR AKAL SPREAD IN ALL UNIVERSES(S), WORD OR SABAD GURU IN THE FORM OF ADI GURU DARBAR(FOR NIHUNGS DASAM GRANTH AND SARBLOH GRANTH TOO), AND PANTH GURU IE KHALSA PANTH. WE OURSELF ARE FORM OF GURU GOVIND SINGH JI. HE TERM US EVEN HIGHER THEM HIM IN DASAM GRANTH JI(INHI KI KRIPA KE SAJJE HUM HAIN..) AND IN SARBLOH GURU DARBAR. SO HINDU BRTHREN MUST KNOW THAT INSTED OF OFFERING TIME,ENERGY AND MONY TO IDOL WHICH IS AMDE AND BROKEN OFFER SUCH RESOURCES TO AKAL THAT IS UNIOVERSE.SERVING MANKIND IS SUPREMRE RELIGION (SEVA PARMO DHRAMA) HAS THIS THING IN IT. DIDHICHI MUNI WAS NOT GREAT FOR HIS BORN IN BRAHMIN FAMILY BUT FOR HIS GIVING HIS LIFE FOR LET JUST SURVIVE EVIL. TESTMONY OF THIS IS GIVEN BY LIGHTENING IE VAJRA(WEAPON OF INDRA). SO AS OTHER AVTAR WERE SENT TO SERVE BRAHAD(OVER ALL ) SWAROOP(FORM) OF AKAL IE WHOLE UNIVERE SO PRESENT AVTAR OF KALIYUG WHICH IS FORM TENTH NANAK THAT IS KHALSA,THE AVTAR OF KALIYUGA IS CREATED TO SERVE WHOLE UNIVERSE. THAT IS OUR SERVICE OR DEVOTION TO AKAL.

SO FAR HINDUS HAVE BEEN RELYING UNDER FAITH OF BY GONE AVTAARS AS IF THEY WILL COME TO HELP THEM OR THIER BRETHREN IN NEED WHO ARE EXPLOITED BY INNER AND OUTER FOES.BUT GOD HAS ALREADY CREATED AN AVTAR FOR THEN DURING 1699. AND THEY HAVE A CHANCE TO BE AVTAR KHALSA BY THEMSELVES SO THAT THEY COULD SERVE THIER CREED EFFECTIVLY.

IF DAS HAS WRITTEN ANY THING UNDESIREBLE DAS BOWS HIS HEAD TO ALL SANDAT SIKH OR NON SIKH AND SEELS FORGIVENSS. AS FOR DAS READERS OF HIS POST ARE NOTHIONG ELSE BUT AKAL. SO FOR HINDUS OF PRESENT THE NEED IS NOT TO WORSHIP GURU GOVIND SINGH JI IN ANY OF HIS TEN FORMS TO GET COMFERT, BUT TO BE HIS FORM IE KHALSA TO COMFERT OTHER AND TO SACRIFISE SELF TO COMFERT OTHER LIKE GURUDEV DID. DAS TOUCHED THE TOPIC FOR SOME WORDLUY REASON TOO AS IN OUR FAITH SAPRITUAISM IS ALWAYS BROUGHT IN PRACTICE IN PHYSICAL WORLD. IN SANGH PARIVAR THEORYS ARE MADE,EXPERIMENTS ARE CONDUCTED BUT PUTING IT PERMANETLY IN PRACTISE IS A BIT DIFFICULT.

ONE OF DAS'S HIGHER OFFICER WHO WAS PART OF A bRANCH (SHAKA) OF LABOUR UNION IE MAZDOOR SANGH TOLD DAS ABOUT 5 YEARS BACK.THAT WHEN YOU START TO WORK FOR HINDUS,BE READY TO FACE STIFF OPPOSITION FROM PEOPLE YOU ARE TRYING TO HELP. HE QUOTED THAT HIS OWM ANCESTORS WERE KACHHWAHA RAJPOOTS OF JAIPUR AND AT PRESENT THEY CONSIDER RANA PRATAP SINGH AS HERO BUT AT HIS TIME HE WAS OPPOSED BY THIER FOREFATHER MAAN SINGH.SAME IS TRUE FOR SHIVAJI(IN tRIYA CHARITAR OF DASAM GRANTH HIS SON SAMBBA JI IS TOLD TO BE HANDED OVER TO MUGHAL BY A BRAHMIN GIRL ON WHOOM SMAMB JI HAD A BAD EYE). SO AT OLD TIME TOO SIKHS WERE ALSO OPPOSED BY MANY HINDUS BUT KNOW THEY ARE TERMED AS HEROS. MANY HINDUS UNINTENTIONLY OPPOSE TENETS OF GURMAT AT PRESENT TOO. IN FUTURE THEY WILL ALSO CONSEDE THAT WE WERE RIGHT BY WHAT WE DID NOW. BUT WHY NOT NOW THEY SIDE WITH US? AND GET THE COMFERT OF WORSHIPPING OUR LORD AKAL.

Mod's Note: Please edit your post, there's no need to be using capitals.

[Guest]

Source:http://www.tribuneindia.com/2000/20000727/edit.htm

Faith shows the way to Truth

by Satish K. Kapoor

“IF you have faith no bigger even than a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there and it will move’,†says The Gospel According to St. Matthew. The cynic and the sceptic may disparage such a statement. But the fact remains that what appears to be logical may not be true and what is true may never be explained by logic.

Logic has its limitations; truth is limitless. Logic can help one to comprehend the world of phenomena; truth can take one beyond the world of objects and senses.

Faith turns blind when it shuts its doors to doubt or enquiry. Logic is congenitally lame for it seldom proves which cannot be disproved at some stage. The fallacy of faith lies in credulity; of logic in equivocation. Faith embraces itself, the doubt about itself, wrote Paul Tillich.

What leads one to the Truth is faith. But genuine faith based on revelation, intuition, erudition or experience needs to be distinguished from the fake forms floated by charlatans or religious mountebanks. The former shows the way to the Divine and makes one noble and virtuous, the latter generates insularity of outlook and breeds hatred and violence. Alfred Tennyson admonishes: "Cleave ever to the sunnier side of doubt/And cling to Faith beyond the forms of faith."

True faith implies faith in the Supreme Reality; faith in prophets, saints, sages and other holy men who perceived the Reality through the course of history, faith in the Holy Word; faith in the exponents of truth; faith in human values and above all, faith in one's own self i.e. in one's innate powers which emanate from the Divine.

By the power of faith the blind saw, the lame walked and the dumb spoke when they were graced by Jesus Christ. Draupadi's faith in Lord Krishna saved her from ignominy when she was being publicly unrobed. Indian tradition has it that Dhanna Jat materialised God in a stone by sheer faith. Swami Vivekananda's recipe for India's regeneration was renunciation, service, strength and faith.

Shraddha, the Sanskrit word for faith forms the cornerstone of the Hindu philosophy. "A man consists of the faith that is in him. Whatever his faith is he is," says the Bhagavadgita (17.3). Faith is the sheet anchor of a spiritual aspirant. It makes him confident, curbs the distractions of his mind, provides him with a supreme ideal and tames his ego, the stumbling block in the pathway to realisation. From faith comes grace, from grace, joy, from joy, peace and from a peaceful state of mind flow love and compassion which get transformed into service of humanity.

But shraddha comes to innocent minds alone. Sceptical minds lost in the mire of dialectics and disputations seldom reach the goal. Sri Ramakrishna used to say that unless one becomes child-like in faith it is difficult for one to realise God. "If the mother says to the child, 'he is your brother', the child fully believes that the person referred to is really his brother. God is moved to pity when He sees in a man that kind of child-like faith. None can attain God with the calculating nature of the worldly-minded."

The Buddha describes faith as "one's great possession". Faith, he says, enriches the mind with wisdom, softens hard and selfish minds and gives us a friendly spirit and a mind of understanding sympathy. But he avers that it is difficult to awaken faith in a person.

In Christianity, faith is the "gift of God" as mentioned in the Epistle of Paul, the apostle to the Ephesians (2.8). It has several meanings in The Holy Bible denoting simple trust or confidence in a person or the assent of mind to the credibility of a particular assertion viz. St. Peter walking on water to go to Jesus (St. Matthew. 14.29). But its common use is to express "the exercise of that faculty of the soul by which it embraces the promises of God." To a Christian, faith is trust in God and in His promises made through Jesus Christ, as also in the scriptures by which man is saved.

Lord Mahavira regards right faith along with right knowledge and right conduct (tri-ratna) as the sine qua non of virtuous living. Sadly, we are fast losing faith in our cultural heritage, in righteous values, in our parents, teachers and elders, in the people around, in God and in ourselves. The results are: stressful life marked by tension and anxiety, sceptical view of the Supreme Reality, weakish social bonds, irreverence towards elders, increasing rate of crime and blissless existence.

Let us pray with the Vedic Rishis: "O Faith, give us faith!" (Rigveda), X, 151.

An Associate Editor of the forthcoming Encyclopedia of Hinduism, the writer is a senior lecturer in history at Lyallpur Khalsa College, Jalandhar.

[PunjabiG]

Well, even though the post has lots of irregularities about Sikhism..as in calling it Sanatan Dharma..Sikhism is NOT Sanatan Dharama. This is a Hindu terminology, so leave it there. No need to try to join two Separate religions and beleifs the same way.

Having said that, I do agree that Idol Worship of Sikh Gururs should be stopped. Whether its done in Hindu Mandirs or Sikh homes. This is against tenets of Sikhism for one thing and also, I don't think HIndus need to display our Gurus pictures everywhere (as its commonly done by RSS, Shiv Sena etc), if they don't even know what their teachings were and what Sikhism preached to the world.

Fateh!

[vijaydeep Singh]

Ek Oankar Wahiguru Ji Ki Fateh

well snobbishness of Das on this issue is further compunded by the fact that in Vachitar Natak Guru dev tell us that his coming is to give rise faith of Akal. others have not been so succesfull.In Kalki Avtar too (of Dasam Granth) message is given that more there are sects more is success of evil or Kali.

Das is writing it as Gurudev Wanted whole mankind to unite by worshipping one God ie Akal. Be it Sikh or Hindu or anyone else. But worshipping of pictures of Gurus may lead to an addition of rival diety to hindu demi gods. Ie punjabi hindus will have 'few' more 'gods' in the pictures of Gurudev or even they may/have put Adi Guru Darbar As rival to thier Rama or Krishana. Many hindus belettle thier incanations by saying Rama had 14 arts ,Krishna had 16 while Guru Nanak had all in him.

This causes further division in hindu socity. And pupose of Gurmat to unite mankind from all Faith is defeated as it is causing divisions in one faith ie hinduism.

Truth as per das is that Akal was/is in all Be it Rama ,Krishna or Guru Nanak Dev Ji. or Tenth Nanak Ji.But worship is to be done of Akal. Was not Tenth Master said.

Worship of Akal Puja Akal Ki

Parcha sabad KA Recoganistion of Gurbani

Didar Khalsae ke View of Khalsa(is same as his viwes).

So to let India and Let hindus be united instead of worshipping pictures or idols of Guru and causing further division it is good that hindus and Indian worship one God called Sanatan in Sarbloh Granth.Called Parbrham in pre Gurudevs scritpures and in Gurbani.Akal is God of forefathers of Hindus.

[Guest Javanmard]

The problem is not the statue or picture as such... One needs to fully understand the concept of idol. Also one needs to understand the difference between icon and idol.