Do you believe the 5Ks are stunting the growth of Sikhism?

[amardeep]

Please scan those pages then.

[SikhKhoj]

Will do when i get time.

[amardeep]

"There are not many pre Khalsa punjabi manuscripts confirming the Kesh thing as I have said earlier."

 

There are'nt any from what you have been able to come up with so far.

 

Oral traditions are fine but difficult to substantiate without any written documentation etc.

 

Yeah I mentioned Singh Sabha once and since then you keep hammering on and on about it. Get over it and stop acting like a child. Its a bit strange you make up so many claims based on hardly anything.

[amardeep]

And what are the other sources you mention written in other Indian languages? Care to share?

[SikhKhoj]

 

Its strange you pretend to be a scholar, making up stuff about Tara Singh Narotam and then run away?

I have substantiated every claim. I cant scan the british book about Gurdwara in Arab but I quoted Mahan Kosh on it. I can't quote the Arabic books but I quote Sayed Pritihpal Singhs notes on it.

Here you go, first and last time I am putting an effort for this. You still need to go a long way before you can even pretend to be a historian

Edited May 31, 2015 by SikhKhoj

[SikhKhoj]

And there are Arabic manuscripts pre Khalsa mentioning kesh too. You know its a logical fallacy when you disbelieve something just because you haven't seen it. If you're so serious about it get in contact with Sayeds descendants and get to know about the manuscripts? I have seen them, I have read them, I have met the scholars.

contact Prithipal Singhs family if you can't wait till the actual arab texts are published.

Edited May 31, 2015 by SikhKhoj

[SikhKhoj]

***

Edited May 31, 2015 by SikhKhoj

[SAadmin]

Please avoid getting personal, avoid tu tu mein mein. Lets keep it civil guys.

[SikhKhoj]

Bhul chuk maaf.

[SikhKhoj]

And you did not answer about Subi Sikhs, native Iraqis? Not Sobti Khatris.
Gandu Su met them last century and wrote about them. Any comeback about that?

[amardeep]

"Its strange you pretend to be a scholar, making up stuff about Tara Singh Narotam and then run away?"

I have'nt pretended anything nor have I ever claime to be a scholar. This is just another one of your many assumotions. And this is not a competition so whats up with your "any comeback to that"? Do you think this is a competition ? I did'n run away - I got fed up with every other sentence of yours being a personal attack so therefore stopped debating with you in that thread.

The above Gurmukhi you have scanned does'nt mention anything about them being keshdharis. I dont have an issue with Guru Nanak having converted local populations in the areas he visited, - what im debating is whether they were told to keep their kesh. The above quote doesnt say anything about kesh. Bhai Sahib says he saw hundred families, - he does'nt say anything about them being keshdharis which invalidates what you said earlier:

"There were over 100 families who were Nanakpanthi Sikhs at his time who kept Kesh since Guru Nanak visited Arabia. I am sure it is mentioned in his notes."

The next thing you say:

I have substantiated every claim.

And there are Arabic manuscripts pre Khalsa mentioning kesh too. You know its a logical fallacy when you disbelieve something just because you haven't seen it. If you're so serious about it get in contact with Sayeds descendants and get to know about the manuscripts? I have seen them, I have read them, I have met the scholars.

The above is wrong as well. All your arguments can be boiled down to "Contact this person" or "I have it in a book but I can't show you the book" etc etc - thats not substantial!!

But I will get in contact with Bhai Sahibs descendants next time im in India as it sounds very interesting.

You still need to go a long way before you can even pretend to be a historian

I dont pretend to be a historian nor do I call myself one. Why are you so keen on using all these titles on me which i've never laid claim to? Whats wrong with you?

[amardeep]

"And you did not answer about Subi Sikhs, native Iraqis? Not Sobti Khatris.
Gandu Su met them last century and wrote about them. Any comeback about that?"

 

I've written some Iraqi friends of mine very knowledgeable about Iraqi history etc. They confirm that there is a people called subi but they are not a tribe. Iraqis call the ancient religion of Sabians as subis, as well as palestinians and the followers of Johannes the Baptist.... They are not aware of any Sikh like people having had that name in Iraq. But they are looking in to it. I've asked other leading muslims of iraqi origins about this years ago and they had never heard about any sikh like people being reffered to as subis..

 

But dont worry.. i'll get a "comeback" for you once i've been in contact with enough people.

[SikhKhoj]

You did run away from Tara Narotam debate. Spreading lies that he was influenced by anti Dasam environment when that so called environment only started around/after his death.

The above Gurmukhi is a proof Syed met them. His other notes talk of them being Keshdharis.

I have referenced my arguments, don't you see;

1. Dr Ganda singh met the Keshdhari Iraqi Sikhs last century who confirmed they kept kesh since Guru Nanak.
2. There are several arabic manuscripts mentioning Guru Nanak giving kesh as rehat. One of the books is Siahto Nanak Fakeer.

Your Iraqi friends sadly won't know anything about this. You are looking in the wrong direction if you are reading about Sabeans. Those Sabeans and the Sikh Subis are different. And its funny you don't trust Dr Ganda Singh having met them. Not everyone likes writing about imaginary things (like the imaginary anti dasam atmosphere during Tara Narotams life).

[SikhKhoj]

The above is wrong as well. All your arguments can be boiled down to "Contact this person" or "I have it in a book but I can't show you the book" etc etc - thats not substantial!!

See who is speaking. Is speaking of imaginary atmospheres substantial? Is argumentum ad hoc for Tara Narotam substantial?

I gave you the persons name, I told you they were in possession of Arabic books were Guru Nanak gave Kes as rehat, I even gave you one name which has become quite known lately (altough unpublished).

I told you about Iraqi native Keshdharis who existed till the 1960s.

What more do you need?

 

[SikhKhoj]

I am sadly restrained by the promise as a lot of information is yet not to be made public. But you can look into Ganda Singhs meeting with Iraqi Sikhs, Sayeds descendants, the arabic book about Guru Nanak preaching to keep Kes (siahto nanak fakeer) - these notes are available in Punjabi.

 

have fun asking your iraqi friends. i'm done

Bye ithaaskara

[amardeep]

You make sweeping statements that make no sense. You say "look into Mahankosh" as if refering to a 3000 page massive book is any form of argument - be more precise then and tell us which entry so we can look it up.

You still have not told us the names of the other writings in Indian languages?

Not a single pre-Guru Gobind Singh Gurmukhi source mention anything about kesh being kept by the early Sikhs. How come?

Which book by Dr. Ganda Singh ? He wrote dozens of books, please do tell us which one so I can look it up.

The quote above does'nt mention anything about keshdhari Sikhs. If it is mentioned elsewhere in the book please do scan those pages also so you can substantuate your arguments.

 

[SikhKhoj]

My last last statement on this thread.

- Punjabi Hajis visited Gurdwaras  in Arabia revered by Sikhs in the late 1800s. I was mistaken, its not Mahan Kosh but Gyani Gyan Singh mentioning it in his Twareekh. I think I don't have it in my library, but it might be available in PDF form online.

- Dr Ganda Singh confirmed meeting Iraqi Keshdhari Nanakpanthis in the 60s of last century in one of his articles.

- Siahto Nanak Fakeer amongst other Arabic manuscripts mention Guru Nanak having long hair and also telling others that they should keep Kesh.

- Contact Prof. Gurjeet Singh of Ludhiana if you want more information regarding the other manuscripts in Indian languages. Ask him for the Oraiya sources regarding Guru Nanak Sahib, he will tell you.

- Since when is history based solely on Gurmukhi sources? First of all there aren't that many pre Guru Gobind Singh Gurmukhi sources to begin with barring the few janamsakhis and a few other books. So you can't build a complete picture solely from that. Secondly look into getting notes about Siahto Nanak Fakeer from Sayeds descendants.

It just like dismissing the value of kakkaars based on the fact that very few puratan books mention the 5 kakkaars.

- I am not here to scan and do work for you, I gave you name of the person and the Arabic book name. The book clearly talks about the Kesh part, its also available in Punjabi form as I said. If you can't spend some money and get the book than thats your own problem.

I can also bring some sources about part of Tibetan Buddhists keeping hair, having idols of Guru Nanak but that will be too much to digest for you even though there are again people who met them, recorded it in history. Anyways

Gur Fateh

[Kuttabanda2]

You make sweeping statements that make no sense. You say "look into Mahankosh" as if refering to a 3000 page massive book is any form of argument - be more precise then and tell us which entry so we can look it up.

You still have not told us the names of the other writings in Indian languages?

Not a single pre-Guru Gobind Singh Gurmukhi source mention anything about kesh being kept by the early Sikhs. How come?

Which book by Dr. Ganda Singh ? He wrote dozens of books, please do tell us which one so I can look it up.

The quote above does'nt mention anything about keshdhari Sikhs. If it is mentioned elsewhere in the book please do scan those pages also so you can substantuate your arguments.

 

​You can read Syed Pritpal Singh's books or you can request the family either in England or India to look at the manuscripts and their copies.