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Do you believe the 5Ks are stunting the growth of Sikhism?


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I just posted in the thread about whether hair cutting is permitted by the holy book but I think my comments are a little off topic and deserve their own debate.

I apologize if this has been debated in the past but I am new to the forum and in the middle of a exams with no time to search the archives.

So my question again is do you believe the 5Ks are stunting the growth of Sikhism?

Personally, I believe any rituals are the death of our faith since we can no longer change and adapt to the modern and ever changing social context. But heck that is only my opinion.

Charn Gill

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I just posted in the thread about whether hair cutting is permitted by the holy book but I think my comments are a little off topic and deserve their own debate.

I apologize if this has been debated in the past but I am new to the forum and in the middle of a exams with no time to search the archives.

So my question again is do you believe the 5Ks are stunting the growth of Sikhism?

Personally, I believe any rituals are the death of our faith since we can no longer change and adapt to the modern and ever changing social context. But heck that is only my opinion.

Welcome to the Forum.

Charn Gill

First of all ji,

Welcome to Sikhawareness.. I hope we can all learn from each other. No one is expert/perfect here. ...so no worries... you will blend in with the crowd :D

Regarding your post: I don't know why our sikh youths think that wearing 5 k's makes someone pindu or not modern as you put it. We got engineers, doctors, army marshals, police officers, models, lawyers, teachers, nurses, proffesors, writers who are Sikhs with full saroop (5k's that Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj gift to us).

Its how you present yourself to soceity...it has nothing to do with 5k's being not modern. ...so have some confidence.

Why would i become slave to them(modern soceity) ??? I would rather stand up firm in my beleif than giving up into social pressures and this modern soceity.

Most of the times our youths blame it all on modern soceities and peer pressures when they put razor on their face and head but not even once blame it to their own insecurity of beleifs.

G'day Mate!

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N30 singh, i think we should give the above question a bit more thought than just playing 'the guilt/pride game of using our beloved Gurus and rehit etc....'

From my understanding of the Agi Granth, ALL outwardly pursuits (charities, pilgrimages, rituals, 'good' deeds, etc) are of NO avail apart from the INTUITIVE notion of EKTA.

So i think it is a valid question to ask whether the INSISTANCE on 5 K's his hindering SOME people from reaching the message of the Adi Granth, by covering it up with what could be called Ritual.

SIMPLY PUT, i think we're all making an assumption that i believ is false :

SIKH is not the same as KHALSA

p.s. it is not my intention to offend anyones personal beliefs or practices

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SIKH is not the same as KHALSA

I agree, Sikh is not only Khalsa but Sikh can be buddhist, kabir panthis, christian, nanakpanthis, sufis...

I m in no way to say that 'Khalsa is more holier than Sikh and vice versa".

But whatever you are, you need Guru/Murshid to show you the light. You can't see light yourself unless off course you belong to 6th category (Karka ie- Guru Avtar).

If someone doesn't want to take amrit or doesnt want to keep 5k's fine. But let me assure you, whichever path you are going to reach almighty ultimately, you gotta get rid of ego and surrender competely to your Guru/Murshid where you become sooo "Murda/Living Dead" that you won't argue about anything specially your outer rehit.

If one thinks keeping 5k's its very super-duper hard for them wait until they do bhagti towards Vahiguroo .... in other words- How can one who can't pass grade 12 will pass phd exams?

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Why would i become slave to them(modern soceity) ??? I would rather stand up firm in my beleif than giving up into social pressures and this modern soceity.

Most of the times our youths blame it all on modern soceities and peer pressures when they put razor on their face and head but not even once blame it to their own insecurity of beleifs.

G'day Mate!

I think there is something quite telling about your response. Firstly, you assume that I am putting a negative spin on participating in the 5Ks. I didn't say anything of the sort but rather tried to bring to your attention that difference of any kind can have severe ramifications.

Secondly, you state that you do not want to succumb to the pressures of today's modern society like those that take up the razor. But aren't you succumbing to the peer pressure of a different kind, one that is imposed by the Tenth guru over 300 years ago.

Guru Nanak created his teachings because he was unhappy with the society of his time. Why would we stagnate the growth of our faith to not be able to address the issues of today's society?

Looking at some of the other threads in the forum, it becomes quite apparent that there are many trying bring their lifestyles within the teachings of sikhism but feel alienated by those insist on rituals.

I despise your comments that insinuate those that cut their hair are insecure, you make it diffcult to continue an important discussion. There are a host of other reasons for not keeping your hair and frankly not many that advocate for keeping it other than blind faith. The requirement of blind faith being the most powerful tool to overcome the ignorant.

Yours insecurely

Charn Gill

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But aren't you succumbing to the peer pressure of a different kind, one that is imposed by the Tenth guru over 300 years ago.

its not any kind of pressure . this is simply obeying the order of our beloved guru ji . if you want to become a true sikh or singh you have to obey their teachings and their orders . if not its ok , you can do what evr you want .

Guru Gobind SIngh Ji said :

" rehni rahe soi sikh mera , oh sahib main uska chera "

" rehit bina na sikh kahave , rehit bina dar chota khave "

"rehit pyari mujko sikh pyara nahi "

Guru Amardas Ji said :

" so sikh sakha bandhup hai bhai jo Gur ke bhane vich aaye "

" aapne bhane jo chale vichud chota khave "

"Khalsa is a very unique panth . It goes in the opposite direction in which the materialistic and kalyugi people go "

As u know " gursikhi bareek hai khande dhar gali at bhidi , uthe tike na bhunhara " , so walking on this path of sikhi is not an easy task . u will have to obey all of ur Guru ji's orders .

Wearing 5k's does not make you a " neanderthal". don't care about the stupid modern society or the so called modern sikhs who talk about forgetting or ignoring our puratan maryadas .

that 's why these days we singhs are not as "pratapi" as the puratans singhs used to be becus we r ignoring many rules set up by our Guru ji .

For a sikh , to say that 5k's are not important , is a very foolish thing to say .

This message is for the people of every faith : have a firm belief in your Murshad (who should be "POORA" or complete ) and do whatever he told you to do .

bhul chuk maaf

wjkk wjkf

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Fateh Ji

Does'nt this question sound like a first standard kid asking to clear graduate examination ?? We all have to clear the standards step by step to be able to complete our gradauation... Once we are on our path of Sikhi and our understanding grows... these standards will stop bothering you at all...

Best Regards

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For a sikh , to say that 5k's are not important , is a very foolish thing to say .

Could you elaborate a little further on why my question or statement is foolish! You have not been able to answer it but merely sling mud in my direction. How godly is that?

Let me be clear, I am not trying to insult anyone that is taking the path of Sikhi, I am humbled by your courage to take such a path. My only point is, does it need to be the path that you describe?

You and other posters have not answered the question accept to say blindly follow and everything will be answered. My mother used a similar type of approach in parenting. "You will undstand when you are a teenager" You will understand when you're an adult" You will understand when you''re a father". Well I became all of those things and I still don't understand my Mother's point of view but of course her answer these days is "you will understand when you're my age". Obviously, I am never going to be worthy of giving my opinion since she will pass on before I reach her age. It is a very effective argument style and you are all using a similar one by saying I will understand when I reach your level.

Please give people a little more credit, I am looking to become a member of your community. When you shut people like me out, you shut out millions just like me. This is exactly why I think the faith must continue to adapt.

Why not have readings in temple in English? Why not have everyone seated comfortably so they can pay attention rather than count the seconds till it is over? Why not advertise the fact that we feed everyone and eliminate the homeless problems in our cities? Why do we fight over whether langar should eaten while on the floor or at a table? Why not be an innovative faith as Guru Nanak intended it?

So this time before you scholars respond please realize that you are responding to more than myself but the countless others that think like

me.

Charn Gill

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Guest Javanmard

Dear Charn Gill

ask yourself the following questions:

1. Did Bhai Nand Lal wear the tre mudre?

2. Why does Guru Gobind Singh call Ram Koer his Khalsa although he does not wear the tre mudre?

3. Do progress and modernity really exist?

4. What is the cost of a religious tradition changing to suit time?

The tre mudre are most sacred to me and I am willing to die to defend them. Yet at the same time I don't make idols out of them. Neo-Sikhs have transformed their so-called rahit and 5k (what I call tre mudre) into their idol. If Guru Nanak touned up today at Darbar Sahib and sang his own bani the SGPC sevadar would probably beat him up because he does not wear the 5K. (mind you there are plenty of sharabi mone bhangra singers who receive siropas in plenty of gurdwaras :evil: !!!!).

Nam simran and love are the essence of Sikhi. Sahajdharis and Keshdharis may have their own life styles but in the end it is not the length of your beard that is going to decide if you are a good Sikh. Love God, do simran and serve humanity. If you feel that the ideal of spiritual chivalry of the Khalsa is for you go for it but then please don't do what Neo-Sikhs do i.e. 'oh it's only a symbol'(don't wear a kirpan if you don't know how to use it!!!). If we Sikhs don't fullfill our mission of service to humanity by feeding the hungry, protecting weak and educating the masses we have failed.

My personal path and opinion is that more than ever the path of the sant-sipahi is needed.

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In case you are wondering Sikhwannabe. Treh Mudre and Panj Kakars are same thing:

source: http://www.sikhawareness.com/sikhawareness...opic.php?t=2873

As stated before, Treh Mudra are not different from the Punj Kakkar, see Amrit Veers posts on this matter under the Keski thread as to how the term "Punj Kakkar" came into being..."Treh Mudra" is the term used by Guru Sahib in the Sarab Loh Granth and also in various puratan rehitnamas.

This is much the same as the Punj Bania not being explicitly listed in full in the older rehitnamas (see Piara Singh Padam's intro on his works to his book "Rehitnamae"), however most agree on there being the Punj Bania, despite early references being only to Jap and Jaap in most cases.

Please can we ensure that we address the questions and not begin discussing the personalities on the website that has 'presented' them. There are plenty of other threads which exist for discussing views on the UK Nihangs and Niddar Singh, if that is what one desires.

This thread is limited to the questions listed above -please let's focus on these, since the answer will bring forth many an interesting points and as said before on the Bhai Sahib Bhai Randhir Singh thread, please allow your comments to carry the weight of your argument and not let this fall into playground mudslinging.

Thanks,

SMS

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If we Sikhs don't fullfill our mission of service to humanity by feeding the hungry, protecting weak and educating the masses we have failed.

I couldn't agree with you more, I just think there are ways in which a person like myself can accomplish just that without keeping my hair.

Because of my Sikh upbringing I have found myself leaning towards social justice issues. This has ultimately led to my seeking a law degree, which despite popular belief is a powerful tool to in creating widespread policy change. I am lucky to have found others in law school that are like minded and therefore we work together in trying to create change. It is when we sit together after a successful rally or protest that we talk about why we are doing what we do. It is only at this time do I declare that I am Sikh and it is my mission to serve humanity. The credibility gained by this approach has led to my colleagues asking more and more questions.

The dilemna I have is when trying to reconcile my ideals with the local congregation. How can I look my colleagues in the face and say now if you wished to learn more and become like us Sikhs all you have to do is, never cut your hair, wear a specific type of underwear, put on a steel bracelet, carry a comb ... oh and carry a dagger.

The two approaches just don't fit, so as you say neo-sikhs have destroyed the integrity of what Guru Nanak was trying to achieve.

Charn

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Sikhwannabe,

You can acheive Vahiguroo without 5k's with humanity, prema bhakti, seva and so on & so forth.

But if you are planning to get darshan of 10th Guru Nanak (Guru Gobind Singh Ji) you have to follow his disclipline which is take amrit.

Without Amrit(intitation), one is Nirgura(without Guru) as Gurbani mentions talk about Nirgura with an aggresive tone.

Amrit(intiation) given by Panj Pyraies is must requirement to be Khalsa(beloved) of Satguroo gobind Singh Ji.

As i mentioned Sikh is not always Khalsa but Khalsa is both.

Here is broad definition of Sikh:

The definition of Sikh

(Amrit Pal Singh 'Amrit')

In the 'Sikh reht maryada', there has been written a definition of a Sikh. The 'Shiromani Gurdwara Parbandhak Committee' has published its English Translation too.

According to the translation, this is the definition of Sikh

"Any human being, who faithfully believes in

(1) One immortal Being,

(2) Ten Gurus, from Guru Nanak Dev to Guru Gobind Singh,

(3) The Guru Granth Sahib,

(4) The utterances and teachings of the ten Gurus and

(5) The baptism bequeathed by the tenth Guru,

And who does not owe allegiance to any other religion, is a Sikh."

Often, we ignore the deep meanings of a simple definition. In the definition of Sikh, 'Sikh reht maryada' has made every point clear. Even then, some people are trying to create confusion about the definition of a Sikh.

The points given in the 'Sikh reht maryada' have been discussed in this article.

In original script of 'Sikh reht maryada', which is in Punjabi language, words 'istree jaan purash' (woman or man) have been used. So, it is clear, according to 'Sikh reht maryada', that word 'Sikh' is used both for a male and a female.

Word 'Sikhni' also has been used for a Sikh woman, as word 'Singhni' is used for an Amritdhari woman. Even in this 'Sikh reht maryada', the word 'Sikhni' has been used (see the second point of the portion describing 'Sadharan Path' and the first point of the portion 'Anand sanskar'). Although grammatically word 'Sikh' is a masculine word and 'Sikhni' is feminine, in practical this word is used for both genders.

First condition for a Sikh is he/she believes in the God. He/she cannot be an atheist. Word 'Sikh' has also been used in ancient Buddhist scriptures for the Buddhists. The Buddhists are believed to be atheists. But according to 'Sikh reht maryada', a Sikh in 'Sikhism' believes in the God. This is his first characteristic. It is impossible to think about a nonbeliever Sikh. If we go deep into this point, we can get conclusion that a Sikh cannot join any such a political/social/cultural organization, which promotes atheism. A Sikh has been ordered to preach theism: -

"Aap japo avrah Naam japaavoh." (Chant the Naam yourself, and inspire others to chant it as well).

(Sri Sukhmani Sahib, in Sri Guru Granth Sahib, page 289).

Grammatically, word 'Sikh' means disciple. It is also translated as 'student'. Actually word 'Sikh' is derived from the Sanskrit word 'Shishya' (disciple). This word has been used in this meaning sometimes in Guru Granth Sahib too. For example, "Kabeer Sikh saakha bahutey keeye, Kesho keeyo naa meet." (Kabeer! you have made many students and disciples, but you have not made God your friend). (Guru Granth Sahib, page 1369). So, we see that the word 'Sikh' has generally been used for any disciple of any Guru in old scriptures. To differentiate from others, there has been told another characteristic of a 'Sikh' in Sikhism.

A Sikh is a person who believes in ten Gurus, (from Guru Nanak Dev Ji to Guru Gobind Singh) and Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Now word 'Sikh' is a proper noun. For us, word 'Sikh' means 'a Sikh of Guru Nanak-Guru Gobind Singh-Guru Granth Sahib'. Now for the entire world, the word 'Sikh' means 'a Sikh of Guru Nanak-Guru Gobind Singh-Guru Granth Sahib'. 'A Sikh of Gautam Buddha' is a 'Buddhist'. 'A Sikh of Kabeer' is 'Kabeer Panthee'. But 'a Sikh of Guru Nanak-Gobind Singh-Guru Granth Sahib' is 'the Sikh'. No need to know what old dictionaries say about word 'Sikh'.

Many people tried to preach their own opinions under the name of Sikhism. They tried to use word 'Sikh' for their followers, but in vain. Some of them are now known as 'Nirankaris'. Some of them are now known as 'Naamdharis'. They can call themselves 'Nirankari-sikh' and 'Naamdhari-sikh', not just a 'Sikh' because a 'Sikh' means a 'Sikh of Guru Nanak-Gobind Singh-Guru Granth'. This is the point we must understand.

'Sikh reht maryada' made another point very clear. A Sikh is a person, who believes in 'Sri Guru Granth Sahib'. Word 'Guru' is very important. It is 'Sri Guru Granth Sahib', not just 'Granth Sahib'. It means that a Sikh is a person who believes that this 'Granth' (book) is his 'Guru'. There is not any other Guru for him/her. He/she does not accept any other living human being as his/her Guru. If someone does so, he/she has right to, but one thing is certain that he/she is not a 'Sikh', according to 'Sikh reht maryada'. So, 'Sikh reht maryada' indicates that a 'Sikh' does not accept any living human being as his/her Guru. Only Sri Guru Granth Sahib is his/her Guru.

A Sikh obeys the sacred hymns of Guru Granth Sahib Ji. But there are holy hymns of Guru Gobind Singh Ji, which are not included in Guru Granth Sahib Ji. So, 'Sikh reht maryada' says that a Sikh obeys the sacred hymns of ten Gurus. Thus, a Sikh is a person who believes in Gurbani (holy hymns of ten Gurus), whether it is written in Guru Granth Sahib, or not.

A Sikh also believes in the 'Amrit by the tenth Guru'. ('Sikh reht maryada' also describes how this 'Amrit' can be prepared.) Only 'the five beloved ones' have right to baptize (to give Amrit) anyone.

Last characteristic of a Sikh is that he/she does not believe in any other religion.

Thus, according to 'Sikh reht maryada', any male or female, who believes in One Immortal Being, ten Gurus (from Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji to Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib), Sri Guru Granth Sahib and the sacred hymns and teaching of the ten Gurus, and tenth Guru's Amrit; and who does not believe in any other religion, is a Sikh.

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So let me be clear, as I stand today I am neither Sikh nor a member of Khalsa. If this is true my mom is gonna hurt someone.

Your definition of Sikh requires one to believe in all 10 gurus. I believe in the existence of these gurus but I question the baptism procedure created by the 10th guru, does that mean that I don't believe in the gurus?

Also what part can a nirguru play in the Sikh society? The way I see it I can provide donations in support of the faith but I cannot be an active member in the temple teachings or policy making? Doesn't that sound contradictory to what Guru Nanak was trying to create. You could call the hierarchy similar to a caste system.

You've go the Khalsa on top, followed by the Sikhs, followed by the Nirgurus.

So where does a newborn child fill into the hierarchy? Is he/she a nirguru because they know nothing and hasn't been baptized?

More importantly where do you my brothers and sisters place me? Do you consider me less than you for not being baptized?

I am happy to read anything you have read and attend any service that might bring enlightenment but I refuse to be baptized. Does that really make us that different?

I understand the definitions that you have provided but it is us mortals that are to interpret them. So what do you make of me and others like me?

I am shocked to learn of the word 'NIRGURU' since I hated learning the word 'GOY' and 'INFIDEL', which mean the same thing for Judaism and Islam respectively. I thought we were different but I guess not.

P.S. this is becoming a really good break from studying. And please don't be offended by anything I say I am just learning.

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lol you are who you are, you are where you are because its where you should be, its all in the hukam if we are all under the hukam nobody is better nobody is worse, we are all just us. Why worry about us and them and all these other meaningless finite issues, there is no need to worry. period.

All you got to do is Naam, be it through recitation, meditation or good action according to what you understand to be truth at this moment in time according to the budhi maharaj has graced you with and learning to increase that budhi to better understand your truth and hence develope it.

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So let me be clear, as I stand today I am neither Sikh nor a member of Khalsa. If this is true my mom is gonna hurt someone.

You are an Sikh because you are learner and slowly will get inspiration (by god's grace) to take intitation from either Panj Pyraies of Khalsa or any other sant mahatama/murshid from any mat(beleif/religion).

Your definition of Sikh requires one to believe in all 10 gurus. I believe in the existence of these gurus but I question the baptism procedure created by the 10th guru, does that mean that I don't believe in the gurus?

Simple Answer is yes...because they are all one Jot. You can't deferinatiate between Guru's. They may be in different bodies but Jot was One.

So procedure created by 10th guru was first formed by Guru Baba Nanak. Guru Gobind Singh Ji did final touch - Creation Of Khalsa.

Also what part can a nirguru play in the Sikh society? The way I see it I can provide donations in support of the faith but I cannot be an active member in the temple teachings or policy making? Doesn't that sound contradictory to what Guru Nanak was trying to create. You could call the hierarchy similar to a caste system.

You've go the Khalsa on top, followed by the Sikhs, followed by the Nirgurus.

Slight Correction- Its Nirgura not Nirguru.

It simply means one without Guru. In eastern dharma's, one who is without Guru is Nirgura...means no mukhti(liberation with God).

In order to merge with God, you have to find someone who already met God.

Defination of Guru- Gu(Darkness) Ru (Light) - Bring one from darkness to Light.

So where does a newborn child fill into the hierarchy? Is he/she a nirguru because they know nothing and hasn't been baptized?

More importantly where do you my brothers and sisters place me? Do you consider me less than you for not being baptized?

When new born baby is born. In Sikh tradition, they are given chaul(pre-intitation) by panj pyareyes(5 beloved) thats not permanent amrit thats just pre-intiation which is done. After pre-intitation new born baby parents are told..whenever you think this kid is grown old and mature and ready to take amrit....bring him/her again to take orginal -Khanda batta da Amrit.

I am happy to read anything you have read and attend any service that might bring enlightenment but I refuse to be baptized. Does that really make us that different?

If you refuse to be baptised thats fine you can still be called Sikh if you beleive in ikongkar(one god) and working towards flourishing your seed of the spirituality within you and enroll in a school ie- ready to be in relationship of Shish(student) and Guru(your teacher from any beleif you choose to go..doesn't have to be Guru's of Sikhism). But who's know?? What kinda price you have to pay?

It doesn't make us different really. We are all one light of Vahiguroo....difference is in ways that is you choose to take another path which leads to same aim anyway. I think you been through attitude of "me holier than thou" by few fundamentalist amritdhari's .

I am shocked to learn of the word 'NIRGURU' since I hated learning the word 'GOY' and 'INFIDEL', which mean the same thing for Judaism and Islam respectively. I thought we were different but I guess not.

Nirgura simply means one without guru. One without guidance. Hence, searching for spirituality but getting no where....to egoistical to ask for help.

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O.K. I accept that I have no credibility at the moment since I have no real experience but if lets say a baptized sikh suggested that we need to change the baptism procedure would you then consider the possibility as a community or are you vehemently apposed to change?

For example, it makes no sense that some temples are not wheelchair accessible. Why not raise the holy book so that all can sit and therefore those in wheelchairs can enjoy the teachings?

Is what I just suggested a really drastic change?

If it isn't how is a plan like that implemented at a temple?

Who makes the decision?

Good Night. Look forward to reading later today.

Charn

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Guest Javanmard

Well, darbar sahib is not a temple in the first place and sitting in front of the emperor of emperor would be insulting except of course for those who are disabled. The issue isn't maryada here but the way how disabled people are not catered for in most gurdware.

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O.K. I accept that I have no credibility at the moment since I have no real experience but if lets say a baptized seek suggested that we need to change the baptism procedure would you then consider the possibility as a community or are you vehemently apposed to change?

Veer Jio, I think you were grossly mis-informed about baptisation method. Its sooo nice and its full of bliss :D :D

Here when ready to take your amrit...you go to Amrit-sanchar by thinkin that oh gosh " you are going to give your head today in love of guru ji". Head as in( tan(body), man(mind), dhan(money for seva)). In amrit-sanchar attmosphere is different.... no discrimination just simran- Vahigurooo, Vahigurooo, Vahiguroo then panj pyares come with khanda da batta, put some patasha in water then they recite siri japji sahib , jaap sahib, tav parsad savaaie, chaupai sahib & anand sahib while they dissolve patasaha(sweetness) into the water and it becomes "Amrit" after they recite divine sermons from Gurbani....you wiill really exicted then the time comes:

Three layers of amrit.

First layer of amrit: Amrit in its physical form...all 5 drops of amrit you drink to purify your sinside body..5 drops in your eyes and 5 drops on your dasam dwara(tenth door top of your head) so that kamal(lotus) of bhagti can flourish at the right time.

Second Layer of Amrit: Naam Amrit...This is given by Panj Pyareyes...when they give you naam amrit..you have to make sure the panj pyareiz has bhagti jeevan....these days amrit has became a joke because panj pyareiz have no bhagti jeevan...thus, creation of malech khalsa's and all inside the panth. Amrit in puratan maryada was never given but gained with lot of seeva and lot of naam simran first. Then it was gained and blessed by guroo maharaj ji.

Third Layer of Amrit: Bhramgyan Amrit/Gyan Amrit. This is the main purpose of amrit..to give you jivan mukhti. That is gained by doing prema bhagti and naam simran of naam(gurmantra-vahiguroo) given by panj pyares.

This shows ji, there is nothing fanatical about baptism process its quite spiritual really ...it can be feel..cant be described. :D :D

Anand hiiiiiiii anand

akaaaaal hiii akaaaaaaal :LOL::LOL:

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woooooooo! where did this topic come from? (dun worry people, this is post-10-hours-of-non-stop-studying sukhi talkin over here.)

wow, SikhWannabe. u've got a real good discussion goin on over here. and now imma put my crappy 2 cents in to mix it up real good. :twisted:

i'm too lazy to deal with each person, so i'm just replyin to things in the order i saw them. and keep in mind that i'm doin this after a 10 hour non-stop studyin session so my brain's slightly mushy.

first of all SWB (SikhWannabe), ur question was whether the 5 Ks are stunting the growth of Sikhi.

my answer to ur very first question is No.

Sikhi has been growing just fine since it was first founded by Guru Nanak Dev Sahib. and the addition of the 5 Ks haven't really hurt it in my opinion. this might be because my definition of Sikh is different from yours. (for a really good discussion on defining "Sikh" take a browse through our forums. we've got a gazillion topics on it.)

what i think is definitely stunting the growth of Sikhi is the lack of information and sometimes misinformation. i also think there's a lot of misplaced "enthusiasm" in Sikhi which leads Sikhs that have taken Amrit to shoot down other Sikhs who haven't yet taken Amrit. not all Amritdhari Sikhs are like this, but there are some that are. and their attitude at times can be more than discouraging.

but i digress from what's being discussed.

Gupy said something in reply to ur first post that i don't think u read properly. maybe u should re-read it. he/she said that a Sikh isn't necessarily the same thing as Khalsa. personally speaking, i think it's an interesting idea and i'm still debating where i stand with it. but i think it's definitely something u should look into.

you seem to view Guru Nanak Dev Sahib as some sort of social revolutionary figure who made a whole lotta changes in the way society does things. and that is true. but what is also true is that Guru Nanak Dev Sahib was making those changes out of spiritual interests. spirituality, God, love, humility, modesty among a multitude of other virtues were far more important to him than mere social change. and the social change that he brought was due to these underlying themes.

u suggest some very interesting and useful things that we should think about to make Sikhi more available to the public such as reading Gurbani in English in the Gurudwara. this is possible, and plausible. but i think it's important for us to learn Gurmukhi so that in an effort to translate Gurmukhi into English, we don't forget about hidden metaphors that our Gurus very kindly placed in Gurbani.

someone once told me that Gurbani isn't just for those who are beginners in their quest for the truth, but for the most advanced spiritual people as well. this means that there is way more depth to Gurbani than we can probably imagine. do u really wanna risk missing out on that depth by translating into English?

as for ur suggestion on making seating more comfortable... how far are u willing to go to attain comfort? would u like cushions? would u like chairs? no wait... lemme guess... a lazy boy sofa... right? i'm just kiddin with u.

comfortable seating can be arranged. but at what cost are we talkin here? the point of us sitting on the floor is to remember our place. we respect our Guru by placing him/her/it/whatever above our heads. of course we can do the same with chairs, but i think that sitting on the floor reminds you to be a lil more humble. but tha's just me.

u spoke about advertising our great deeds to the world. how we feed the hungry and have a free kitchen etc, etc. advertising these wonderful things isn't really in the best interest of Sikhi. why? because that kinda advertising is only gonna lead to pride and ego. this is where ur gonna get people starting to boast about how many people they fed and things prolly aren't gonna get too pleasant after that.

the point is to be humble and modest about doing seva. seva isn't about i, me and mine. it's about being silent about ur own good deeds.

besides, no one likes a holier-than-thou attitude.

Shaka Laka Baby and Dynamite have some very good suggestions for u. did u take a look at what they said? if u didn't lemme reiterate (cuz i agree with them): stop concerning urself with others. be who ur gonna be, whether tha's a keshdhari, sehajdhari or a full out Khalsa Panth-ic sorta person. do simran. do seva. be a part of sangat. dun sweat the small stuff. (sorry, i had to add it in. it just seemed so right for the line...)

i laughed really hard at the part where you said how it's kinda stupid for you to have to explain to your colleagues/friends/whatever that in order for them to follow Sikhi, all they have to do is continue on with their good deeds and never cut their hair, wear a steel bracelet, funky underwear, etc.

if tha's all u think there is to bein a Sikh, ur quite mistaken. there's a lot more to the 5 Ks than meets the mortal eye. there are metaphors within metaphors within metaphors in Sikhi. and the 5 Ks just happen to be one of them.

what's the significance of the 5 Ks? i don't know. does anyone know? i don't know. does it matter? i don't even know that much.

but if you place such a reductionistic perspective on the 5 Ks, ur gonna miss out on the beauty. tha's fo sho.

i have a question for Neo now... Neo, is one really Nirgura without amrit? really? how interesting... i never heard that before...

back to you SWB...

discuss this idea of Nirgura with Neo, cuz i've never heard of it til about 5 minutes ago when i read his post.

SWB, u keep asking about whether others think of u as any less for not being experienced, or a full-out "seek" (what the heck is that? i've heard of Sikh... never heard of seek...)

why is what other people say or think so important to you? if i call you an idiot, it doesn't mean anything. it doesn't make you an idiot. unless u really are one, which is completely different.

things only affect you if you let them. surely you know all about that by now. so why concern yourself with what others think? especially in your path to wherever you're going?

oh... i've got one more question for Neo...ur giving me some uber different views today, buddy. what's goin on? r u tryin to shock me into silence? since when did Sikhs have a "pre-initiation" ceremony? i know about chula chakna, but even that is supposed to be voluntary. where did u come up with a baby gettin pre-initiated?

and it's not necessary that someone is too egotistical to ask their Guru for help. it's possible that they are confused and lost and dun really know where to go, in which case, the Guru will extend his hand to them on his/her/it/whatever's own.

aight SWB, back to you again...

you do have credibility. and you have the right to ask questions even if you think u have no credibility.

but a quick question: are u asking about the procedure of getting Amrit? or the lifestyle that follows it? those are two very different things.

as for wheelchair accessible Gurudwarey... i agree with Shaka Laka Baby. btw, SWB, u live in the great pind of Tronto. isn't disky (dixie) Gurughar wheelchair accessible?

okaaaay. that was a lot of nonsense from yours truly. it's been fun. it really has. now let's see how many of u people actually bother to read what i wrote... hahahah!

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Heres my two cents :D

Everyone needs a teacher to excel at anything. Everyone. This applies to anything in life..be it music or indeed spirituality.

Theres an array of teachers out there i.e. from jesus all the way to sai baba.

Take your pick. But if you choose to follow the gurus path i.e. the "ten" gurus..then, as with all schools of thought/relegions, there is an initiation ceremony.

For sikhism/the gurus path, this comes in the form of amrit (although there are three variations from my knowledge, one of which may apply to you.)

So do not fret; you dont have to wear the five k's..but to be deemed a sikh, or to be deemed a muslim/christian,etc you HAVE to partake in an initiation ceremony.

I dont know why..maybe its to raise the psyche of the person taking it..or maybe there is a spiritual power to it (infact im sure of it.)

In conclusion, amrit is a necessity. But like yourself (wannabesikh) iam a wannabe sikh too. I havent enrolled at the college of sikhism either :(

Maybe one day..when it feels right. But i know, deep down, the gurus rehit will strengthen and make my spiritual path that much sweeter..and i guess, that much easier. Its impossible for me to go into the booms of amrit when i havent tasted the sweet nectar..however, i know, one day..i shall. Its imperative if iam to belong to the gurus..and i want to. I want the guru to take my arm and guide me in life..i cant do it on my own..no way.

Maybe you should try and see it this way too..again, this is my opinion..and it cant possibly be a guide for your own spiritual journey..but the fact your conscience is focused on spirituality is beautiful in itself..im sure things will fall into place. Just keep the 'faith' :D

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lol I respect amrit and I respect what its about, but hell man its nothing more then a fantasy ritual nowadays and even in the older days.

People always say crap like back then the sikhs were this or that or when satguru was alive this and that, lol satguru is alive nowadays too and amrit is made by 5 singhs and all, but people take amrit get a mad ass placebo and then reality sinks in.. nothing has changed except you announced publicly your a Khalsa.

You look at the kirpan on your side the kara on your wrist the kesh on your head the kanga in your back pocket because you always forget to tuck it behind your hair after you combed it and start to tie your dastar. And yep the funky underwear everywear and overwear the kashera. You look at all these items so called divine and special, but they do nothing non of them talk to you, non actually have much effect on you.

If a person was to say that oh but when I go to do a bad thing I see my kara and it stops me, lol when then your following an idol. hell if I got a luimp of metal and threw it at your head it would stop you, but you wouldnt see that as divine interventioin.

This talk of the khalsa back in gurus days, well Banda Singh he was saved from the evil ways of vegitarianism and junglist (living in jungles)sadhu or whatever by Satguru and given amrit made immortal, by Guru himself. Now Guru aint stupid hes not the type to make mistakes according to those who believe he is infalible (that includes me) so why did he give amrit the power of so called purity and immortality to a person who was going to stray. In fact why did Banda stray if he had taken to bliss providing bad ass amrit and that too during the time all sikhs were chardi kala (according to common myth).

Same with Chali mukte (I fully respect them as mukt) however when reality sank in they lost all concept of divine guru or this fantasy of wonderous warriors protected by the hukam, it was the hukam which made them mukt so I am not insulting Guru or the mukte just raising the point of reality.

The Khalsa was created to accomodate Change. it is the physical version of Vishnu - the sustainer it sustains the world but its soel purpose is for this world. and this world is finite, just like when the world is destroyed vishnu will go to sleep there is nothing more for him to do, and no movies left to watch no popcorn nothing. So he just thinks screw it I will go sleep and hopefully when I wake up something should have kicked off again.

So the khalsa is all about the world, the return of mehdi to save the lost souls and so forth its still all linked to this world, and thats funky because this world is a reality its the manifest reality, but its not all reality its the one we can see and hence the one we think means the most.

But Sikhi is all about the Naam. And Naam goes beyond this world it goes beyond the khalsa the 5 Ks black white chinese purplese.. whatever and the Naam is like I said before its what you understand it as because its maharajs hukam that allows you to understand it the way you understand it, and its maharajs hukam which allows it to develope in whichever way it wants.

I once got told that there was one truth and hence no need for so many paths. I agree and disagree,

I agree there is only one truth, but I also know people will take that truth in their own ways. An institution may say one thing but in reality it is usually always different. Its like If a tree was to grow straight up and there would be no branches and branches would be an off shoot from the upwards movement of the tree. So hence there could be no leaves, and no fruits. then what would all you vegitarians eat?

The cause of diversion is not to move away from the truth but so that all can take in the truth as and how the hukam decides. A branch lower down is no greater then a branch higher up in a tree, the humble lower branch may not produce sweeter fruits because the higher branches get more sunlight, however it will produce more fruits and a variation of animals and people have access to those fruits. (as they are lower down) but the higher branches cover up the lower ones and get the sunlight first however their fruit is only eaten by the monkeys and birds. And those at the top of the tree have no fruit and are tiny twigs no good for nothing other then chilling out in the sun and open sky. All these branches serve their purpose, all belong to the same tree, all nurished one another, it would seem like they clash but them compliment. Lol those who say only khalsa is a sikh to them I say whats the purpose of a tree with no branches.

Damn this has turned out to be another long post.. I hate my fingers. they jsut dont stop.

WHile on the topic of trees that tree which grows quick and straight is the first to be chopped down, and those which twist and bend usually stay standing for many a year :)

Being a bender is the way to God :) (hehehehe joke)

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Question:

SWB point is a very valid one, and i want to re-word some of it in a question or two:

1) How do you explain the apparent 'contradiction' between the modern day concept of a strict rehit attributed to Guru Gobind SinghJi and a even stricter adherence the the philosophy of the Adi Granth. Considering that the Adi Granth persistantly makes it clear (in my opinion) that the journey needs to come with in).

2) Are 5 k's essential to practice Dharam. In particular hair?

I have some thoughts on tis, but i wanna know what your thoughts on these questions are.

Thanks

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Sikhi has been growing just fine since it was first founded by Guru Nanak Dev Sahib. and the addition of the 5 Ks haven't really hurt it in my opinion.

Do you have some statistics to back up your claim, I don't doubt your perception but I find it very hard to believe that the retention rate between generations is positive considering my observations in my own community.

Gupy said something in reply to ur first post that i don't think u read properly. maybe u should re-read it. he/she said that a Sikh isn't necessarily the same thing as Khalsa. personally speaking, i think it's an interesting idea and i'm still debating where i stand with it. but i think it's definitely something u should look into.

I did read itand that is part of where I derived the hierarchy I described in an earlier post. What concerns me is the existence of different levels of devotion based soley on action rather than spiritual accomplishment.

you seem to view Guru Nanak Dev Sahib as some sort of social revolutionary figure who made a whole lotta changes in the way society does things. and that is true. but what is also true is that Guru Nanak Dev Sahib was making those changes out of spiritual interests. spirituality, God, love, humility, modesty among a multitude of other virtues were far more important to him than mere social change. and the social change that he brought was due to these underlying themes.

Yes I do believe, Guru Nanak was a revolutionary; e.g. he attempted to eliminate the caste system. That brings another point when did Sikhs start abondoning the sole use of Singh and Kaur? Isn't pointless to be named Charn Singh Gill as I am. I have often considered eliminating Singh entirely from my name since it serves no purpose alongside Gill. You probably wondering why I would not just eliminate Gill, well once again I am concerned for most with practicality, names are to identify an individual, having the same name has thousands of others doesn't work well in today's world. Education about the ignorance of the caste system would be better served today. That was abit of an off-topic rant, sorry.

u suggest some very interesting and useful things that we should think about to make Sikhi more available to the public such as reading Gurbani in English in the Gurudwara. this is possible, and plausible. but i think it's important for us to learn Gurmukhi so that in an effort to translate Gurmukhi into English, we don't forget about hidden metaphors that our Gurus very kindly placed in Gurbani.

I agree but wouldn't it follow that once people actually understood what was being said they maybe inclined to seek more knowledge which would then require learning of Gurmukhi. You cannot expect all to become scholars but they should all be worthy of guidance.

as for ur suggestion on making seating more comfortable... how far are u willing to go to attain comfort? would u like cushions? would u like chairs? no wait... lemme guess... a lazy boy sofa... right? i'm just kiddin with u.

comfortable seating can be arranged. but at what cost are we talkin here? the point of us sitting on the floor is to remember our place. we respect our Guru by placing him/her/it/whatever above our heads. of course we can do the same with chairs, but i think that sitting on the floor reminds you to be a lil more humble. but tha's just me.

There are many opportunities for showcasing the need to be humble, do you really want to choose a time when people should be listening to teachings and reflecting on their own being. This is probably the only time many people come in contact with the holy book. Why not make it as positive an experience as possible? I realize that it is probably enjoyable for you and those that understand all that is being said. But I am speeking from the perpective of recruitment.

u spoke about advertising our great deeds to the world. how we feed the hungry and have a free kitchen etc, etc. advertising these wonderful things isn't really in the best interest of Sikhi. why? because that kinda advertising is only gonna lead to pride and ego. this is where ur gonna get people starting to boast about how many people they fed and things prolly aren't gonna get too pleasant after that.

Why not set an example for the state? If the temples can feed the starving through donations that pale in comparison to tax revenue, the state would be forced to sit up and take notice and hopefully effect change. I am not suggesting it to show off.

Shaka Laka Baby and Dynamite have some very good suggestions for u. did u take a look at what they said? if u didn't lemme reiterate (cuz i agree with them): stop concerning urself with others. be who ur gonna be, whether tha's a keshdhari, sehajdhari or a full out Khalsa Panth-ic sorta person. do simran. do seva. be a part of sangat. dun sweat the small stuff. (sorry, i had to add it in. it just seemed so right for the line...)

I agree that I can easily fall into the bliss of my personal utopia but that doesn't fit with my ideals. I am looking for the same thing as Guru Nanak, Karl Marx and others were, that being collective utopia.

i laughed really hard at the part where you said how it's kinda stupid for you to have to explain to your colleagues/friends/whatever that in order for them to follow Sikhi, all they have to do is continue on with their good deeds and never cut their hair, wear a steel bracelet, funky underwear, etc.

if tha's all u think there is to bein a Sikh, ur quite mistaken. there's a lot more to the 5 Ks than meets the mortal eye. there are metaphors within metaphors within metaphors in Sikhi. and the 5 Ks just happen to be one of them.

I was over simplyfying the issues, I recognize the metaphors and the minuscule portion the 5Ks represents but I am not the one placing so much value on the 5Ks. It is those that are trying to force it on others that have created their distorted value.

Why not suggest to Sikhs that at one point in their life they should make a pilgramage of soughts to visit the Sikh historical sites of Sikhism. And also suggest that they try to emulate the founders during this trip by maintianing the 5Ks etc. I am just thinking out loud here. I would love to do something like that.

SWB, u keep asking about whether others think of u as any less for not being experienced, or a full-out "seek" (what the heck is that? i've heard of Sikh... never heard of seek...)

I apologize I too have been studying alot and my fingers sometimes type alot faster than my brain.

why is what other people say or think so important to you? if i call you an idiot, it doesn't mean anything. it doesn't make you an idiot. unless u really are one, which is completely different.

things only affect you if you let them. surely you know all about that by now. so why concern yourself with what others think? especially in your path to wherever you're going?

I am not concerned with what people think of me, but trying to emhasize that some of the participants in Sikhism have committed a cardinal sin, that being to judge others.

as for wheelchair accessible Gurudwarey... i agree with Shaka Laka Baby. btw, SWB, u live in the great pind of Tronto. isn't disky (dixie) Gurughar wheelchair accessible?

Don't get me started about Dixie Gurudwara, the place IMO has absolutely nothing to do with Sikhism. I will save my comments and experiences of Dixie for another day since I will probably alienate more people than a new comer ought to.

!

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