Gurus and God

[Infernal Monk]

While reading the post "Sikhism is Wrong" in the Archived Discussions thread I began to think about somethings mentioned there.

First I have a question to those that feel Guru Gobind Singh actually cut the heads off the Panj Pyarae, um how did he reattach them? I was always under the impression that the Gurus were enlightened beings, not demi-gods....

Also if those that claim the gurus had "powers." What is the role of God in Sikhism? I mean God is meant to be this omnipotent, omnipresent force; the ultimate reality in a sense..Does God really interfere in human affairs? I mean what is Sikhi's view on this? Aren't we supposed to be self-realized people, that don't need God to come down and help us. That is why we had Gurus, right? And Gurus are not god, they are merely teachers trying to show us the a way to the ultimate reality that is god (ie guru can show you, but you have to take the steps yourself)..you are attributing things like resurrection to the gurus... How can they do that? Isn't that God's will, what about your karma, etc...

[Pheena]

First I have a question to those that feel Guru Gobind Singh actually cut the heads off the Panj Pyarae, um how did he reattach them? I was always under the impression that the Gurus were enlightened beings, not demi-gods....

Firstly Cutting off the Head is metaphorical term for cutting of the Ego. I don't see What purpose would cutting off the head of the panj piyaray serve? Cutting off the Head is implying the EGO was removed. Simply that.

Also if those that claim the gurus had "powers." What is the role of God in Sikhism? I mean God is meant to be this omnipotent, omnipresent force; the ultimate reality in a sense..Does God really interfere in human affairs? I mean what is Sikhi's view on this? Aren't we supposed to be self-realized people, that don't need God to come down and help us. That is why we had Gurus, right? And Gurus are not god, they are merely teachers trying to show us the a way to the ultimate reality that is god (ie guru can show you, but you have to take the steps yourself)..you are attributing things like resurrection to the gurus... How can they do that? Isn't that God's will, what about your karma, etc...

Guru is the closest thing to God. Guru is the Mirror which reflects the image of God. Guru is the Hollow Flute from which God plays his Songs.

The so called Powers can be gained by anyone, The Ridhias and the Sidhias are not only for the enlightened, but even you can attain them thru Certain Yogic Techniques. A Guru will never show off his powers to gain prestiige.

To show off powers would mean the ego is present. For it is the ego that wants attention and power. Either gurus were Egoist who wanted to show the powers they possesed or their expression of power had a deeper meaning. What made you question this? The thread you speak of is pretty long, perhaps copy and paste the comments which made you question this.

Reading the Guru Granth Sahib, one feels not to gain ridhias or sidhias but to unite with ONE. That is the purpose.

[Sukhi]

hmmm... nice thread Monkey. we're gonna have fun with this. i can already sense it. lol...

first of all, demi-gods aren't the only ones who can have powers as Pheena already mentioned.

Who or rather What God is has and probably always will be a mystery to most of us until we gain enlightenment. i believe it was Guru Nanak Dev ji (correct me if i'm wrong) who said that it's useless to try to describe Who or What God is. it'd be a waste of millions and millions of lifetimes. so i guess you could say that God is The Ultimate Reality of ultimate realities. am i makin sense here?

and the reason i brought up the entire "it's futile to understand God" thing is because you can only understand one's role if you understand the identity of that being.

please don't ever make the mistake of thinking that we're supposed to be "self-enlightened" and don't need God's help. there's a gazillion quotes in which the Gurus themselves attribute everything they have to God. our Gurus called themselves worthless and helpless in the eyes of the Almighty. so i'm pretty sure that it's retarded for us to consider ourselves to be "self" enlightened. so not possible. you become enlightened when God wants you to be.

as for tryin to understand what Gurus really are, Shaka Laka Baby made an AMAZING post in RupZ's thread in the Gurbani forum. it's on pictures of Guru Gobind Singh ji i think. take a look at that for a lil more info.

[Guest Javanmard]

I am posting it again:

I find quite sad and revolting that people who call themselves Sikhs go to the extent of reviling the exalted status of our Beloved Gurus to the point of limiting them to historical figures only. It just shows how people may recite gurbani mechanically everyday but have not become one with its essence. They are like spoons full of amrit: they contain it but amrit hasn't permeated their being.

Mulmantar is very clear as to the status of the Guru in the expression gurprasadi which translates as 'in the Grace of the Guru'. Grace is an attribute of Akal Purakh. No created being can be a vehicle of Grace for only Vahiguru can be Grace. This logically means that Akal Purakh and Guru are One! gur paramesar koi bhed nahi!!! Furthermore the line starting with adi sacu confirms it as it refers to the previous content as being true before any time (adi), in the beginning of ages (jugadi), in the present (hai bhi) and on the future (hosi bhi sacu). This means that the Guru is the eternal expression of Grace and that he pre-exists Creation.

Akal Purakh in his Nirankar aspect and as absolute cannot be seen for if this was the case it would cease to be the absolute as for it to be seen it would need to be placed in a three dimensional context and thus limit itself. For Akal Purakh to manifest Himself to his beloved creatures and for them to interact and lovingly adore Him he needs a Face of Beauty and Grace, the Guru. The Face of God has manifested itself throughout the ages and times as this is confirmed in gurbani as well as in the scriptures of true religious traditions revealed by the Face of God. Why do I use the term Face of God? When you interact with someone you look at his/her face. The face is the aspect of the person with which you interact. It is the person yet at the same time the person cannot be limited to the face alone. That is why Maharaj says that whosoever calls him Parameshar shall burn in hell: reducing a person to his face is truly insulting.

It is central to understand this to realise the true status of our Gurus who were pure, infaillible, prestine, divine beings,expressions of God's Face in this world. The Guru is born with that exalted status. His status is not the result of his piety, rather piety is the expression of is immaculate and divine nature. That is why we need to value Guru Harkrishan so much. Why? He is the living proof that the status of Guruship is not the result of years spent in meditation (Guru Harikrishan died aged eight). Guru Harkrishan Maharaj was born Guru! The secret of Guru Tegh Bahadur is precisely that: the fact that he is the Face of God and that there no need or possibility for him to submit to human limitations.

Guru Maharaj didn't just come here to teach. Guru Hargobind did not leave any gurbani in any of the three expressions of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj apart from some bolas used in the Nihang traditions (Brahm Kavac). Nor did Guru Hari Rai or Guru Harkrishan. They are living proof that the Guru by his presence alone is a manifestation of the Divine. If bani is Guru, Guru is bani as well i.e. contemplating the Divine Beauty of Maharaj equals to the merit of gurbani.(this btw is no excuse to neglect gurbani)

This is confirmed by two sakhis of Guru Gobind Singh.

The first one is that of General Sayyed Khan who whilst facing Maharaj in battle gets off his horse and claims: I do not know if this man is God or the Light of God but I submit to him. Guru Gobind Singh did not preach to Sayed Khan nor talked to him. Seeing the Divine Beauty of Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj had converted his heart.(Suraj Prakash Granth)

the second one refers to Anup Kaur who fell in love and tried to seduce Him.After renouncing her wicked ways Anup Kaur realised the true nature of Guru Gobind Singh and became a great saint. This sakhi was written by Guru Gobind Singh himself in the Charitropakhyan Sahib of Dasam Guru Granth Sahib. The sakhi of Prophet Yusuf and Zuleikha is also contained in there and it is a clear sign from Maharaj telling us: I am the new Yusuf of this age, I am the manifestation of God's Beauty, I am the Face of God!!!

This is precisely why the Gurmantar is Vahiguru: our souls enraped in love for Maharaj fall in extasy when contemplating His Beauty.

Bhai Nand Lal Goya's Tausif o Sana with all its Persian titles given to Guru Gobind Singh clearly proves the point: Maharaj is the Face of God, the Hand of God, the Light of God, the Master of the two Worlds etc...

Do we need more proof?

It is my wish that my fellow Sikh stop ridiculing the exalted status of our Gurus by reducing them to simple mortals.

[khalistani]

Vaheguru je ka khalsa, vaheguru jeke fateh!!

shaka nyario made a bvery nice point

guru je was not an enlightned being or normal man with gian

they were god in satgurua avtaar

nanak aprampar avtaar jeeo

and according to a hand written account of the first vasakhi, by adbul trani, still kept

guru je cut the head of of each sikh literally infront of everyone

and they reattched the heads by sowing em back up, sort of like operations

and they made them alive by giving them amrit

thus

proving amrit really does have powers

and putting the shabad

jo tho prem khelan ka chaoo sir that thalee galee marraoo

in litteral meaining

and putting his sikhs to the ultimate test

seeing if the cud actually give their heads or not

one bibi goes to guru je

and says to guru je bless me with children

guru je says vaheguru didnt write this in ure karms

but the bibis says u are akal saroop, cant change it

so guru je blessed her with i think 7 children

guru je wass god in one of his forms as satguru avtaar

we shud remembe that

bhula chuka maf

Vaheguru je ka khalsa, vaheguru jeke fateh!!

[Infernal Monk]

Thanks for the responses..

And I apologize to anyone that felt I was disrespecting the Gurus in anyway..I have the utmost respect for them.

So well this brings me to another question..saying that the gurus were God manifested..are you talking about incarnation?

I apologize for sounding ignorant, but I was always taught that God was this formless, omnipotent force/being....I was also taught that God does not incarnate into this world...He permeates it, is within all of us, but never takes a human form...I mean isn't this why we reject idol worship, and even Guru worship?

Thanks for clearing this up, sorry if it seemed like I was disrespecting the Gurus.

[khalistani]

Vaheguru je ka khalsa, vaheguru je ke fateh!!

veer je, bani says god has no permenant roop

but he can take any form he wishes

god does have that power

and we DO guru pooja also

just go to gurughar and look at guru granth sahib je

y we do it?

cause its avtaar of guru naanak dev je and of vaheguru je

and vaheguru can have more than one form at a time

he can be here in satguru avtaar, and vaheguru can also be in there all prevading form

bhula chuka maf

Vaheguru je ka khalsa, vaheguru je ke fateh!!

[Infernal Monk]

I'm sorry but guru pooja, sounds like a very Hindu view, cause that is how they worship their idols...When I go to gurudwara I do not pray to the SGGS..It's bani thats important, not the physical book itself..

Again I apologize in advance if I offended anyone..(I wish I didn't have to put such disclaimers, but then I would have people being offended over a discussion of somethign I don't understand).

[khalistani]

Vaheguru je ka khalsa, vaheguru je ke fateh!!

veer je, thas cause the rock is just a ROCK

right

guru je is the saroop of guru nanak dev je

same thing

technicALLY, WE BOW DOWN TO the joth, the light inside

sorry for cap lock, accident

but its the body that contains that light

so we respect that body tooand anyways, guru je was god incarnated

he made a form of himself in satguru avtaar

i can give bani thuk on this if u want

there MAAAANY

bhula chuka maf

Vaheguru je ka khalsa, vaheguru je ke fateh!!

[Infernal Monk]

Wait...so the gurus were god incarnated? What about when the guru ghadi became hereditary? And when it became hereditary, why did God incarnate twice in such a small area? Sorry I sound overly skeptical, this is all very new to me.. Well this just brings up more questions, I suppose it's time I begin doing some research on my own..thanks for replying

[Sukhi]

hmmm... from what i know, our Gurus were firmly against God being incarnated as anything since He is neither born nor dies. so i'm not too sure about the "incarnation" thing...

[Guest]

Right.

Nirgun(non existent) saroop of Vahiguroo don't get incaranated but Sargun Saroop(Human form) of Vahiguroo does which is form of Guru Avtar, Nit Avtar(saints), Avnit Avtar,mach avtar, Narsingh avtar etc.

But again we humans not only sikhs but all humanity should have bhavna towards Guru/Murshid/Pir/Pagamvar..whatever you want to call it as Nirankar himself because at the end of day there is absouletely *NO* difference between Nirgun and Sargun..they are inter-related with each other...They are part of each other and cannot be separated.. If there was no Sargun form of Vahiguroo then this world wouldn't exist. If there was no Nirgun form then again this world wouldn't exist.

How to reach to Nirankar in Sikhi??

Through sargun saroop of Vahiguroo- Guru Maharaj, his saints and his divine sermons (Shabad Guru)

Other than there is no other way to reach and merge with Nirankar and become its roop.

Thats it for now.

I hope my post make sense!

[Guest Javanmard]

khalistani said:

veer je, bani says god has no permenant roop

Are you so sure?

What about : Akal Murati?

[khalistani]

Vaheguru je ka khalsa, vaheguru je ke fateh!!

ya veer je, i ment like a body

u know like us

god never has one like that

bhula chuka maf

Vaheguru je ka khalsa, vaheguru je ke fateh!!

[tableji]

First I have a question to those that feel Guru Gobind Singh actually cut the heads off the Panj Pyarae, um how did he reattach them? I was always under the impression that the Gurus were enlightened beings, not demi-gods....

If we were sposed to kno wot happened, guru gobind singh ji would not have done it behind a curtain...somethings are we are just not meant to understand or know