how can a Sikh sing Vande Matram?

[vijaydeep Singh]

Gurfateh

Yesterday we had so called Hunderd years of National Song of India Vande Matram ben celebrated.

It is part of Anand Math Novel and that is by Bankin Chandra Chaterjee(Chatopdhyaya to be more clear Bangle Brahmin gotra).

As per it and this true also Sanyasis(hermits) did carried out revolt to overhtrow Muslim Nawab who was apuppit of Britishers.

Das just want to add that during that time ,with little bit gap there was similar revolt by Sufis also in Bengal,which novle does not mention.

Coming to the song.Hindutva guys say that in democratic set up of india as mark of partriotism it must be made compulsary for all to sing it.

As per them all nations in world should do this for thier songs.They even try to say that it happens in other countaries.

Muslims have oppsed it,Delhi Sikh Gurudwara Managemtn Commitee also oppsed this compulsary thing.But SGPC first oppsed then backtracked.Das still rembers the same guys of Akali Dal Badal once walking out of govt. function when Sarswati Vandan was made.

Singing and just stadning in respect are two differnt things.Say when Deh Shiva var Mohe is sung.Hindus are expected to stand in respect.So till Sarswati Vandan was not forced unto them or Vande Matram is not force onto us,it could be OK to stand in respect with other comrades.

But what aout making it compulsary?

As per Gurmat as it is in Islam,shirk or worshipping any thing else but Akal is not allowed.no text so far das saw in Gurmat,ever said to have saying India as Bharat Mata.Yes earth is told as Mat Dharti(Salok at end of Japu ji Sahib)but Wandana term is used for Akal.Bandana Har Bandana but never for land.

Even when some one thinks of house he is told to be rebron as ghost(Verse unto Devotee Namdev Ji).It is further strange that in past Sikhs protected India while saying the name of Akal.Andn that wass better then those who said victory of Bharat Mata.Das owns a house he is told to take care of it.

It will be foolish for him to do wroship of house and wate timea nd resources.It could more follish when worship is done ,when house is in trouble.

Das has seen that in foregen countries there are various nation anthem in UK long live the queen is song but das fails to see worshipping the nation concept.They are no where less in patriotiism.We have seen in west say in USA,how did fire fighter did partriotic sacrifise in trade tower attack or say during a highjack of plane from pensyvania.And how UK force acted in creeamia war or say falklands.

Where as if we see recrods of Hindutva foces

we have

1.Kandhar highjack

2.death of 125 Amarnatyh pilgrims(Moonsoon 2000).

3.fiasco of operation Prakram and later calling in of Agra summit(stoping to highest).

Then same guys worship Cow but same cow in same country eats garbage and dies of eating polythene.

Same guys worship Ganges but put sevage in that.

so worshipping some thing does not means that that has been served also.

So better is to serve then just getting satisfied with worship.

As in hindus elemetns of natures are worshiped and Bharat Mata is actual godess of recenlty made qusi faith Hinduism.So das can respect thir feeeling.

But beeing as a Sikh for das.Har Ji Mata Har Ji Pitah,if we have Mata refer to Akal,then Das can Say Vande Matram(Akal as Mata) else in the name of patriotism belivers(Be it Sikh or Muslims) are been forced to join hinduism and its ritual.Das sees Vedas which also tells to go after God and not the worldy thing.Earth is only one elmenent of five basic worldy elements.

Das heard fake Akalis saying if you have to live in India,you will have to say Vande Matram(during Rath Yatra of Mr Advani 1990).Das,then as Hindu was happy.but now as a Sikh das finds it more a trap of mammon of worldy things.

for das only worship is to be done of Akal,who is in all and thta could be done by serving them practically then just making non sense issuies.

[Guest SAdmin]

I thought National Anthem was " Jan- Gan- Man-Adhinayak Jai Hai reh"? Because Jana Gana Mana makes more sense for Indian anthem than Vande Mataram. It was written by Rabinder Nath Tagore http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jana_Gana_Mana who is also from Bangle Brahmin community.

Rabindernath Tagore rejected it as national anthem though but muslim communties agreed to it. You can read the whole details here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vande_mataram

[Guest Javanmard]

Forcing non-Hindus to sing Vande Mataram is extremey offensive. Bankim Babu's song is inspired by Kali devotion and non-Hindus don't recognise themselves in it.

On the other hand India has another anthem written by Iqbal which totally secular with no religious content...strange why Hindu extremists refuse to acknowledge "sare jahan se acha hindustan hamara"...

This is yet another example of how India as a secular republic is being endangered by the existence of religious parties. Religious parties should imply be banned. BJP, RSS, Akali Dal, Dal Khalsa and Muslim parties etc... should all be banned as being anti-constitutional! India has to remain secular!

[Guest SAdmin]

Rabindernath Tagore wrote very good national anthem which shows the secular views. It was dedicated to almighty.

Thou art the ruler of the minds of all people,

dispenser of India's destiny.

Thy name rouses the hearts of Punjab, Sindh, Gujarat, the Maratha country, in the Dravida country, Utkala (Orissa) and Bengal;

It echoes in the hills of the Vindhyas and Himalayas,

it mingles in the rhapsodies of the pure waters Jamuna and the Ganges.

They chant only thy name,

they seek only thy blessings,

They sing only thy praise.

The saving of all people waits in thy hand,

thou dispenser of India's destiny.

Hail, Hail, Hail to thee.

[Guest Javanmard]

It's a beautiful song indeed!

[Singh47]

This is yet another example of how India as a secular republic is being endangered by the existence of religious parties. Religious parties should imply be banned. BJP, RSS, Akali Dal, Dal Khalsa and Muslim parties etc... should all be banned as being anti-constitutional! India has to remain secular!

Lalleshwari, the party which to date has carried out the most anti-Sikh policies has not been religious based parties i.e. Akali Dal, BJP but rather the so-called secular party of India known as the Congress party of India. This secular party has broken up Punjab simply because Sikhs wanted Punjabi as the state language, carried out operation blue star, and also the anti-Sikh riots which followed the assassination of Indira Gandhi.

What is your view about the many Shia religious parties that are now popping up all over the middle east with their new found freedom to practice religion? These Shia religious parties be it the Shia coalition of Iraq, Hezbolla or the religious Shia theocracy of Iran are thriving under the blessings of Shia Imams. Do you disagree with their existence as well?

[Guest Javanmard]

Yes I believe the Iranian regime and Hizbullah: they have no theological legitimacy! In the absence of Imam Mahdi there can be NO Shi'a theocratic state plain and simple. Wilayat e faqih is in total contradiction with orthodox Shi'ism.

[Singh47]

Well, it’s strange that you say that since Ayatollas and Shia Imams in the middle east are the supportive forces in most of these political parties. These Shia Imams are no amateurs to Shia’ism. They have studied in Shia centers of learning such as Najaf. Sheikh Hassan Nasrala also studied in Iraq in his early days. Although I know that you know a lot of Shia’ism (more than anyone I know), but I think that even you have to admit that the Ayatollas and Imams know more about Shia’ism than you.

Personally I don’t see anything wrong with Shias wanting to have political parties who will protect the interests of their community. It is 100 times better than getting your head kicked in by Sunnis all your life and being forced to live in Taqiya. I don’t think they should have to wait hundreds (if not thousands) of years for Imam Mahdi to come and rescue them.

[Guest Javanmard]

Yes Singh47 you do indeed know nothing about Shi'ism. You don't even realise that the title Imam is reseved for the 12 Holy Imams and not for anyone else. The argument about the absence of Imam Mahdi you use to justify such despotic regimes is exactly the one used by Khomeini: let's not wait for the return of the Mahdi...

I personally would have problems with my conscience supporting a murdered like Khomeini like you do Singh47 who didn't hesitate to eliminate not only his oponents in the high clergy but also thousands of others. In one night he had 17.000 Sufis executed and had his men rape the young Sufi women because it is believed that a woman who dies a virgin goes to paradise. May God have mercy on your soul Singh47.

Do you even realise that 80 percent of the Shi'a clergy in Iran is against wilyat e faqih because it is anti-Islamic? Do you realise that Iraqi clerics CURSE Khomeini from the minbar?

Yes Khomeini studiedbut others studied more than him and they all said the same to him when he came back to Iran: You have become Pharao, a tyrant!

This is the voice of the true Shi'a scholars!!!

Until the return of Imam Mahdi there can be no Islamic government! This is the true orthodox Shi'a doctrine!

[Singh47]

Yes Singh47 you do indeed know nothing about Shi'ism. You don't even realise that the title Imam is reseved for the 12 Holy Imams and not for anyone else. The argument about the absence of Imam Mahdi you use to justify such despotic regimes is exactly the one used by Khomeini: let's not wait for the return of the Mahdi...

I personally would have problems with my conscience supporting a murdered like Khomeini like you do Singh47 who didn't hesitate to eliminate not only his oponents in the high clergy but also thousands of others. In one night he had 17.000 Sufis executed and had his men rape the young Sufi women because it is believed that a woman who dies a virgin goes to paradise. May God have mercy on your soul Singh47.

Do you even realise that 80 percent of the Shi'a clergy in Iran is against wilyat e faqih because it is anti-Islamic? Do you realise that Iraqi clerics CURSE Khomeini from the minbar?

Yes Khomeini studiedbut others studied more than him and they all said the same to him when he came back to Iran: You have become Pharao, a tyrant!

This is the voice of the true Shi'a scholars!!!

Until the return of Imam Mahdi there can be no Islamic government! This is the true orthodox Shi'a doctrine!

First of all, I know about the Shia concept of Imamiat. But Shia’s themselves use that terms as an honourable title for respected clergy. That is why you will come across many Shia who add that title to the grand Ayatollas, for example ‘Imam Khomeini’.

I think that your over inflated ego is giving you too much credit than you really deserve. So now you are a bigger authority on Shia’ism than Shia clergy? I know that you know a lot of Shia’ism, but to think that your word has more authority on the final verdict than Shia clergy is just reeking of ego.

Also, please don’t put words in my mouth. When the heck did I support Shia regimes? To think that “I†of all people support Shia clergy is just plain ridiculous. I HATE mullacracy. In my opinion if Mullas (both Shia and Sunni ones) did not exist, world peace would have been a thousands times closer.

That being said, I still don’t think that anyone deserves getting their head bashed in by Islamic radicals. Shias have been living under Sunni rule as a persecuted community and quite often forced to hide their beliefs (Taqiya). If Shias want to fight back against Sunni extremists, they have all the rights to do so.

[Guest Javanmard]

Look Khomeini fan! The title Imam only started be used for people other than the 12 Imam with the 1979 revolution. It is hence not a traditional title for clerics! And in fact Most clerics refuse to use it for people other than the 12 Imams! So when you speak Shi'as you're only talking about a pretty new brand!

My knowledge of Shi'ism comes not just from books but also from interacting with Shi'a clerics too who explained to me how Khomeini's movement is a farce! It is them who condemn the Iranian regime! Even Ayatollah Montazeri who co-wrote the 1979 constitution said it was never mean to be a theocracy! None of this is my invention you fool!

Yes Shi'as can defend themselves that is why Amal was created by Shaikh Musa al Sadr but never with the intention to create an Islamic state which is what the Iranians did and what Hizbullah want!

Get your facts right!!!

btw Pasdaran are recruiting, if you like AK47s join them that way you can put your words into action and get your Khalistan!

[Singh47]

Look Khomeini fan! The title Imam only started be used for people other than the 12 Imam with the 1979 revolution. It is hence not a traditional title for clerics! And in fact Most clerics refuse to use it for people other than the 12 Imams! So when you speak Shi'as you're only talking about a pretty new brand!

My knowledge of Shi'ism comes not just from books but also from interacting with Shi'a clerics too who explained to me how Khomeini's movement is a farce! It is them who condemn the Iranian regime! Even Ayatollah Montazeri who co-wrote the 1979 constitution said it was never mean to be a theocracy! None of this is my invention you fool!

Yes Shi'as can defend themselves that is why Amal was created by Shaikh Musa al Sadr but never with the intention to create an Islamic state which is what the Iranians did and what Hizbullah want!

Get your facts right!!!

btw Pasdaran are recruiting, if you like AK47s join them that way you can put your words into action and get your Khalistan!

Man, you got some issues. I hope you book an appointment for some professional help …SOON!

I’m out of this discussion.

[Guest]

I think everyone agree that sikh should not be forced to sing vande matram?

Due to topic going off tangent. This topic is closed.

PM me if you would like to add anything to orginal topic.