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Baba Manochal

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About Baba Manochal

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    Sayana Bacha||Sayani Bachi

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  1. How can you be a sikh, if you have no faith?? It would seem naari that your faith extends to pretty much simply the words of one certain individual, no names mentioned! A few more questions which you might wish to ask which will question faith... Did Guru Nanak Dev Ji really stop the falling rock at punja sahib? Is that really his handprint? Is it physically possible? Did Guru Nanak Dev Ji really squeeze milk and blood from parsadhe? Did Guru Nanak Dev Ji really dissapear for 3 days in a river? Did Guru Arjan Dev Ji really get tortured in the way it is said? Is it humanly possible to go through such pain? Did Guru Harkrishan Sahib Ji's placing his feet in water which was given to residents of delhi really cure their diseases?? Im sure doctors would laugh at that suggestion, dont you? Or how about teaching a uneducated peasant the whole of the gita by touching his head with a stick? Impossible? Or... hmm Ok Guru Tegh Bahadhur Sahib Ji pushing the merchants boat with his shoulder... Lets not foget Baba Atal, maybe somebody can refresh us as to why their tower exists there today? How do we know that Gurbani as Guru Ji taught us, IS actually dhur ki bani? If we neglect faith, we would require proof of this claim, perhaps if vaheguru was to sign off gurbani ... but then would you believe that the signature was truelly vaheguru's?? as you say So it would seem that you see faith as a waste of time and useless, only human effort and experience etc is worthwhile. And i would take it as an assumption that the above listed examples would also be seen by yourself as lies and false propganda? Im sure people could list some more events which you would also label as being imagined by the saingh saba lot!! Please deny the above, would love to see you say it! Maybe you should try a diffferent path my friend, as sikhi is surely about faith as much as it is about anthing else.
  2. Ans to 5) yes guru ji is of those qualities... do you fear the guru? Do you follow everything that guru ji says to the letter? If not then you must also be unafraid. 10) do you ever go to mutha tekh to guru granth sahib ji maharajh... have you lost all your kaam krodh lobh moh hankaar? im not even talking about the story or otherwise just pointing out the fact that people always talk a good game. The chritar should be taken out should they?? Go on then do it soldier!! Lets see you do it, form your group or one man band whatever, and take them out.. same as some other guys who were arguing about raagmaala one time, saying it shouldnt be in there etc... we asked them if they believed that 100% then they should have it removed from guru sahib... we asked them to try and remove the gurbani from maharajh. They never did my friend, as i said its easy to talk a good game. By the way what the heck does baba takhar singh ji being a graduate have anything to do with the dasam granth?!?!? lol If he did would that make you happy and believe that this gurbani is bani!! Mate, baba ji studying at uni which people like us will proably never enter! Since when did gurmukhs or mahapursh start needing degrees? Please let me know which tuk says that a brhamgianni needs a degree... sure i didnt read that in sukhmani sahib!!
  3. Fauji ji, you got too much time on ur hands bro!! Damn man maybe you think we should all write an essay on each of ur questions!! This is too funny
  4. Firstly, my friend i urge you to go to the police. They know how to deal with similar cases, dnt just talk the talk do something about it, otherwise drop the issue because its not getting anybody anywhere?!? If somebody was a dreggy and has redeemed themselves are they still to be judged? I dont know which people your on about but if this is the case then thats a differet story. As far as names, well uv already given a few there, now if your wrong then maybe some people will be wanting words with you at some stage in the future. Please remember people as i keep repeating, wen we rant and rave on here were safe, but its diff wen ur on the street and u come across the guy u been accusing of being a rapist, he may not be too happy with it u know wat i mean. So either say it openly upfront to the people, go to the cops or drop it! And brother, im sorry but i have been around for a while, im guessing a bit longer than u, though and i may be wrong. But dnt give me that story of london, lol! And as i said above, jus cus seva does not have boss all over it doesnt mean its not done by boss. And again the peopel your talking about very much do push their beliefs, so not even going to gt into that debate. This was precisly why people stepped in to clear up the mess. Persoanlly if i didnt make clear in my last post, this thread is a waste of time, its a clash of personalities which people are using to have a go at a grp who does do a lot of good work. I just wonder how long people are going to go on about this? Because i can assur eyou, once all this has finished, the singhs and kaurs doing the seva will just get on with it again. So have fun in mud slinging people, its only temporary. Have ur fun while it lasts. And again i remind you guys for your own safety. IF your going to talk about so called criminals and drug pedlars, please have your evidence to hand, (as is so often requested on many threads). as the allegations you are suggesting are criminal in nature, and although i am not trained in law, im sure you could get into trouble for suggesting that people are involved in crimes to which they have no links. I think the website itself is treading on thin ground as its allowing this conversation to occur, just a hint, be careful, dnt think many of us could afford law suits etc!
  5. Im quite worried about these claims of people being rapists and pimps etc, if anyone has such information then surely as a sikh their first course of action should be to report it to the police!!! if not that, then take the relevant matters into your own hands as nihangs singhs should do being the warriors of the guru. Please keep us updated on the progress of your police reports that you file on these guys, they should definetly be locked away for doing these things. ..... unless your chatting rubbish of course!! Mods, erm i could be wrong, but last time i spoke to the bibi she said that she'd not recieved any form of apology, not that she expects or wants one, just thought id mention it, again you may have sent it after i spoke to her, in which case i apologise. It is very very strange that BOSS is meant to be as described above, the amount of seva they do both as a group and on an individual basis is very impressive. The fact that a LOT of this work gets done without the BOSS logo plastered all over it just shows that its not about promoting a group or organistaion but the pure love for seva. I really dont want to go into specifics, but a lot of the major things happening in youth and other parchar around the country will have some people from boss involved, working side by side with other org's and jathe. Just because they dont wear neon signs saying i volunteer to do seva with BOSS, doesnt take anything away from them. During this month singhs and kaurs from around the country have come together to hold a number of sikhi weeks around the country, London West Midlands East Midlands North where in total THOUSANDS of students across the country will have attended some type of sikhi parchar. IF the people doing seva with BOSS are all fanatics and extremists etc etc, do you think this would be possible? These weeks have been happening for years and years! The people criticising these events now, are as mentioned the same people who would attend, ask questions and embrace the same BOSS sevadars as their brothers! Have things changed that much!? On top of this, COUNTLESS camps are arranged and run by various singhs and kaurs who often do seva with boss. please understand this is not a club that you join, people do seva with boss and all other groups, the fact is everyone works together, there is no problem!! These camps again happen all over the country, where we have hundreds of kids at each camp. I was fortunate to have popped in just to see how a few were going, in a total of three camps the total number of approcahed 1000 children!!!! These people take time out from their lives to do this seva, there is no monetary incentive, just the love to do seva. Like it or not, you can throw mud at whoever you wish, results and actions speak louder than words, for years and years and including the present date singhs and kaurs have shown their quality through their seva, this wont stop them lol, just make them more determined to do serve their guru. We all have issues with people, but this thread which seems to have become an anti boss thread is a waste of time. I have done bits and pieces of seva for events that boss organised, so am i also connected to these rapists and a fanatic? Grow up, if every time u had an argument with someone you decided to slander the whole group, you wont have many people left to talk to, life could get very lonely. Finally, unless your actually going to do something about it, dont just blow hot air from behind computers. It benefits nobody, and im guessing the authors probably feel quite empty and cheap themselves knowing that its ever so safe behind the good old pc screen! For all the guys doing your seva may guru ji bless you, for these people crying and moaning and dragging names through mud, just because the individual left your group, sharm karo. really is quite funny that it took 6 months for such a 'massive groundbreaking lets get it debated at akal takhat and get him thrown out the panth, panthic controversy' to be revealed. LOL anyway back to work, but to be honest id rather be at the midlands BOSS sikhi week eating that langar being served from a uni!! Lol missed breakfast man!
  6. anyone?? Can you be a jathedhar and not have a farla!?!? narsingha have you got a farla?? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Moderator Note: This discussion is locked as participant wants to get feedback from one of our member which he can do through PM or by sending him e-mail. This is discussion is locked due to violation of rule number 4. 4- Two people replying back and fourth to each other, changing the topic. Please note this is a discussion forum not a chatroom. Hijacking a thread and turning it into an endless back and forth off-topic chat is not only rude, but quiet disruptive. If you wish to start a conversation with someone, please PM or email them instead.
  7. http://www.sikhawareness.com/sikhawareness...opic.php?t=3007 i tried to get some answers similar to the above in this thread... ended up with the fact that there didnt appear to be a consitent definition of chatka, hence virtually everything seemed to be chatka.
  8. Neo, im not jatha bashing or promoting, i dont think iv said anywhere that any particular group gave more than any other in any of my arguments, you'll find that its usually people with little knowledge on this topic who jump to the conclusion that it was only singhs from taksal etc, but those who know a little of the movement such as our brother sukhdev singh will tell you that the singhs were from varied backgrounds and different jathe. However that doesnt mean that we cannot critisice where critcism is due. Im not denying budha dal's contribution hundreds of years ago and against the british, im talking about the here and now. Is it right to live off a reputation carved out by others? Yes singhs did great things in the past, and those singhs belong to us all, they are all our elder brothers, not just to any one jatha's despite this whole 'you have taken amrit from this place and therefore that makes u a nihang/akj/whatever! ' But if just become stuck telling stories of the good old days without making a contribution to sikh history ourselves then what does that make us? Singhs did do great things, but today they have shown that they didnt meet the levels which our forefathers set. We deserve this critcism, especially if we play the part of defenders and lions of the faith and yet remain toothless when the time comes to bite!
  9. Well said Sukhdev Singh Ji, thanks for clearing up those points about the background of Shaheed Avtar Singh Bhrama. I would also like to add that i agree, the people who you term 'taksali youth' have plenty of other things to worry about such as seva and parchar, lol not sit around blaming nihangs fot the problems of the world!! The fact that in this particular discussion/topic they are to blame in the sense that they did nothing for the people is different. That blame is fair and justified. There are many other problems that we face such as female infanticide, lack of faith given to gurbani, apostacy in the community, corruption by so called leaders etc etc, do the nihangs get blamed for these things? NO. So please stop making sweeping judgements and making mountains out of molehills! Its ridiculous! The reason i put the term taksali youth in inverted commas was because i dont believe that term applies to the people you refer too. I have read on forums and spoken to singh who have told me that to become known as a taksali singh, you need a certain level of training in gurbani, santia, kata etc, so you must either be fully trained or be dedicated towards that path. Most of the people you refer to would never even in their dreams consider themselves worthy of that title. SO basically think of a new group name and a new motto, because at the moment both are incorect. I repeat, i do not KNOW of anything that santa singh has done for the benifit of the panth. I repeat i say that in all honesty, i really truely dont, if you wish to tell me then please do so. Until you or somebody else decides to i will never know. You say that they look after gurdware that were never desecrated? What does that imply... either that the armies were to afraid of them (lol) or that they didnt involve themselves in the struggle and kept out of it and thus saved themselves, possibly through hatcthing some sort of agreement which involved a large 'donation' been given to them. Ok yes in history the dal has done good work, but im referring to the current situation. Tell me what has santa singh and co done for the benifit of the common sikh. Was Guru Hargbind Sahib Ji under attack himself or was it the akal takhat? Did the enemy set out to kill the sikhs and the guru, or to destroy the akal takhat and harimandir sahib? Yes i can very easily say that if Sant Ji had not been there, eventually the army would have attacked. Simple. Sant Ji was there for a while, so using your theory that he was some sort of catalyst why didnt they attack earlier? Why pick that particular date? Knowing that darbar sahib would be full of pilgrims? Sant Ji knew the army was determined to attack the AKAL TAKHAT not him. I repeat they could have killed sant ji whenever they wanted!! I repeat sniper rifle would have easily done the job. The fight was not with him but with sikhi and they wanted to hurt us as badly as they could, they wanted to opress the sikh spirit that had started to rise and shine! Im afraid i dont have a list to hand but will try to find it for you. In regards to Beadbi of Guru Granth Sahib Ji there countless cases of such incidents, i will have to look up the name of the village but sant ji spoke of one incident where people broke into the gurdwara sahib took guru ji out, threw the rumalleh onto the floor and spread cow dung all over the ang of guru ji. Where were the guru's ladli fauj when that happned? In delhi countless gurdwara's were burnt there too, i saw a recent video which showed an image of a guru granth sahib ji da saroop half burnt lying on the floor of the streets of delhi. Where were Budda Dal that happened? Again i will repeat the indian authorities are clever, they will always try and excuse their actions with x y or z. The delhi maccacres were explained away as pain felt by the population over the deliverance of justice to gandhi. But today there is plenty of eveidence to show that these events were also preplanned and much organisation had already taken place, much of which would have been impossible to do the night which she was shot. This would suggest that the massacre of the sikhs would have taken place at some stage they were just waiting for the day. Im sure that if the singhs had not shot her, the authorities probably would have assasinated one of their own ministers or set fire to a mandir or something just so that could claim that the riots were spontaneous. why are you still talking about the akal takhat, i thought the nihangs didnt care, since they are the real takhat!! And also hang on, correct me if im wrong, but i heard that before sgpc was formed the nihangs did seva of akal takhat... so how and why did they stop? Did they get thrown out by the SGPC?!?!?! NO!! Your statement also suggests that it was too big a task to defend the akal takhat, hence implying that these is a case for its defence. Would the nihangs have done better? Soryhang on, oh yeh they were hiding in the jungles in punjab waiting for the akal takhat to be destroyed at which stage they were gonna run out and beat them using guerilla tactics!!! secondly who out of the army of the budha dal is trained in warfare and knows how to adopt such guerilla tactics against a better trained and armed army or police force? (This is a topic for which i have as yet recieved no answer in the sampardama section). Im afraid if we are talking about military affairs, and the contribution of the budha dal, which as many claim is the official sikh army is negligible at best, then they wil take the blame.
  10. Well then what are you suggesting? I dont know, to me that sounds like your contracdicting yourself? On one hand your saying that they didnt come to kill sant ji, and then on the other hand your suggesting that if he hadnt been there, then they wouldnt have attcked? Surely thats the same thing, that they came to get him?? As has been pointed out numerous other gurdwara shaibs were attacked at the same time, they also experienced beadbi and were ruined and sikhs were killed there as well. Was Sant Jarnail Singh Ji at each of those gurdwara sahibs as well? Were they fortified? If not then why was there a need to attack them? And im sorry but the fact that it was preplanned has EVERYTHING to do with the discussion. If the attack was preplanned then thats suggests that they were waiting for an opportunity to carry out the offence. It was a matter of time. Whichever excuse they use is irrelevant once the plan has been hatched practiced and put to paper. Only a fool would not defend his house when he knows it will be attacked. A bigger fool will leave his house undefended and try to fight a battle in the next town, knowing that once they kill him they are totally going to destroy his house. It would be better to at least TRY and defend your own house to the best of your ability. (When I say your house i refer to our collective fathers house) Again i will repeat if Sant Jarnail Singh had left the complex was irrelevant, he wasnt born there was he! Have a look at his parchar all across the country, he wasnt there, i repeat if they had wanted to get him they could have done so at any stage. As Rochak has pointed out sniper would have been the easiest choice. It seems that you have fallen for the propganda machine which fed people the notion that the forces went into the complex to clear 'extremists'. Its rubbish. The innocent yaatrees.... was it sant Ji's fault that the sikhs were killed at other gurdwara sahibs too? Who will you blame for the 200 or so innocent sikhs picked up and killed in encounters before the attack between the years 1980-84? Whose mistake was it that they died? What about the people in delhi? Whose fault was that? People on this forum im sure would suggest that Bhai Satwant Singh and Beant Singh were to blame for killing gandhi...? Rubbish again. People underestimate the cunning of politicians and particularly those in india, do you think they care for sikh life? Look at the killings in Kashmir, kill the sikhs blame it on muslim extremists so that bill clinton has harsh words with pakistan. Do you think they cared about the familes whose homes they ruined? As far as santa singh goes, forgive me but that is his name isnt it? Ok i'll be honest with you, as to date i know of nothing that santa singh has done which has beniffited the quam. I really honestly dont. so i wont be giving him any elaborate titles, as for personal vendettas, we'll i'v never met him, so no its not personal, but i feel as a sikh it is my right to expect my so called quam da jathedhar to pull his finger out and do something when my brothers and sisters are being burnt alive and raped across india. If not then well.... And what can niddar say about santa singhs actions? There is no excuse. Its a shame that the sikh 'warriors' failed to participate in the panthic morcha, even sant like Sant Baba Harnam Singh Ji stepped forward and offered himself up for voluntary arrest during the days of the morcha pre1984. Were was the budha dal? Lokk their actions have much to be desired and to be basic and simple they did nothing so leave it that. As for him going pesh... why have you used inverted comma's? Was the pesh not a real pesh? If he is jathedhar of the quam then why go to do pesh in front of them? Is he not strong enough to tell them were to go? Secondly if the government has just destroyed akal takhat, killed thousands of sikhs... and then gives the budha dal a donation.... then doesnt that raise some suspicion?? Why would they give a donation at this such a time? After having committed such atrocities? Are you suggesting there was some sort of deal between the indian govt and santa singh? Hmmmm Also sorry just wanted to ask, who did most of the building work when santa and co built the akal takhat? Was it mostly singhs from their dera or other people? OKKKK Firstly sorry you say youve done all this research etc, but tell me how long you've spent in the army making defensive positions? if he was such a great general? Do some reading buddy. point 2, again army did not enter to get a few individuals but to cause the most pain it could to the sikhs. point 3 they lost so many soldiers because they had underestimated the courage and josh of the singhs. Their planning was great, but they were faced by the great general Subegh Singh and the ladle of guru gobind singh ji!! I believe one of the indian generals said, something along the lines of " if i had 100 of these sikhs i would be able to go and f*** (name of the then pakistani prime minister)". Even brar the ** talks about the resilience of the sikhs. 4, i explained above 5. so lets let them destroy everything then we can hide in the jungles. Firstly how much jungle area is left in the punjab? Where would you hide? Gorrila warfare was adopted but the current punjabi terrain is one of the worst possible for which to adopt this. And oh sorry wasnt it the nihangs who adopted the guerilla warfare? SO that were they were in 1984!!! Hiding in the jungles!!! lol oh ok thanks!! 6. I that is the case then why do nihangs make such a big deal out of being thrown out of the akal takhat in the 1920's? Why do they care? Why does their jathedhar go pesh in front of them? I agree about buildings, but its what they represent which was destroyed, when Guru Granth Sahib ji is Burnt and abused that is worse than buildings being destroyed, so tell me what should be done to those who do beadbi to Guru? Buildings is exactly what the nihangs think the akal takhat and others are. Why else do you cover up the evidence as soon as possible? The spirit and feeling of the sikhs was wounded, and rather than do anything to rebuild that, they rebuilt a building. If the akal takhat had remained as it was, and santa singh and the others had used theirgovt money to buy useful weapons and gone out to get justice then we would have respect. Unfortunetly things didnt turn out that way. All they care about is buildings.
  11. A common mistake people make is that the army attacked darbar sahib in order to kill Sant Jarnail Singh Ji. That is far from the truth, if they had wanted him dead, they could have killed him when he gave up voluntary arrest, they could have intensified the assasination attempts. They made a couple of feeble ones but nothing of substance. The attack on darbar sahib was exactly that, an attack on darbar sahib. Sant Ji had been doing the same parchar and carrying the same shastar for many years previously, its just a nice excuse for the army to say that we went in to flush them out, its rubbish really. I still think people are a little afraid of admiting that the indian army would attack darbar sahib for no reason. Its a harsh pill to swallow as we dont think anybody could be that evil, but they are. If sant ji decided to defend the place then so be it, he did it to the best of his ability. Sant Ji never wanted to fight the indian army, he would only take part in defence against the indian army. If you listen to his speeches you will notice that he never speaks of war, unless and until the forces attack darbar sahib, in which case he said each and every sikh has a duty to rise up and defend our faith. To say that he was not politcially gifted is again a mistake. Please read up a bit more on the politics between the sikhs and the central govt and sant ji's responses and actions, you will see that as a sikh his understanding of miri and piri was superb. Why else do you think the akali dal and longwal etc stabbed sant ji in the back? It was because he was so shrewd that the movement which was apparently being led by the akali dal was in reality led by hum. When he was stopped doing parchar in manji sahib, and he moved, the sangat came to listen to him speak rather than the others such as longwal. He was and is a spiritual and political giant. At the time militarily nobody else had the courage to tell the sikhs to arm themselves as Sant Ji had, you have to understand, recreating the akal purkh ki fauj is no small task. I have asked many times on other topics for people to explain to me the military make up of certain sikh groups, but nobody has been able to do it. The duty of protecting the sikhs is a duty of all sikhs, but certain people CLAIM to have that role as soley theirs, but then fail to do it. Santa's actions have been well discussed and debated. If im not wrong he himself went pesh to apologise for these actions? By talking of the money as a donation is a nice twist, i suppose any bribe could be thought of as a friendly 'donation'. Sorry there is and was excuse for taking the money from the govt of the witch especially for the rebuilding of the akal takhat which she sent her forces to destroy. Im sorry and although you have posted a very nice message, i have to disagree. Santa very much deserved to be made tankaiya, if not for that then for sitting there and watching thousands of sikhs being killed and not lifting a finger. If british civilians/property were attacked and the generals in the army refused to move their troops to defend british civilians, then we all know there would be serious repercussions for this cowardice of inaction. To rebuild a gurdwara is one thing, but wha about the thousands of broken hearts? or broken homes? Did he do anything to help them? If the govt had paid him a bit more money maybe he would have. Sorry but i disagree with you questioning sant jarnail singh ji, and despite your sweet words of humility i still find it odd that you can defend santa whose only contribution was as a cleaner against the likes of sant jarnail singh ji. If you want to discuss santa and his lack of contribution to the panth etc etc please discuss these topics in the relevant topics in the sampardama section. Ps In a recent human rights publication from human rights workers in Punjab, there is some intresting news. A large number of families made complaints to the group that there families and sons fathers etc had dissapeared in the past decade. After various politcial shambles the govt agreed to pay around 100 families Rupees 1 lakh (100,000) for their loss. On the understanding that the police and govt took no blame for the loss of their family memebers. These families were particularly chosen for being severly poor and severely in need of money since the breadwinners have all been killed. Unlike the leader of the budha dal, these people on the verge of starvation REFUSED to accept this money if it meant that the govt washed its hands of the blame. They said they would rather starve than forgive the govt for their acts. They wanted justie against the murdering police forces and army, not a few rupees. Santa should have thrown the money back in the face of the govt, and demanded justice, instead he took the money and then stayed quiet without uttering a word. I think we need more jathedhar's like these people living in mud houses, and less like the ones being driven around in vans and buses.
  12. Hello? Any replies as to maryada of keeping farleh? Please could somebody provide the answers? Iron Bangle brother, it seems that there is some serious allegations made by people concerning the vichaar of baba nihal singh ji (please see discussion on them) and until the question i have asked on their i think it would be better to get the Budha Dal answer from jagdeep first. then see what baba nihal singh says, its not like in the old days when the nihangs all used to believe in the same things is it! Please somebody the farla maryada?!
  13. Intresting, can somebody also answer the other parts of the original question, concerning the actual practice of wearing a farla. I,e, length, time when has to be worn, when (if) can be removed, ranks associated with farla etc etc as asked in first question.
  14. What exactly is a farla and how do you go about getting one? Who is eligible to hand one out? What is the maryada to keeping one? Ie what length should it be, when do you have to wear it? When can you take it off? Also what doe sit mean to have one? Are all people with a farla on the same level of respect? Or can you get different ranks of farleh as well?
  15. Yes he did explain to us sikhs that we are not hindu's. That was a misconception amongst many, and sant ji challenged it and rewoke the sikh identity, which is prob why today you dont need to consider whether you are a hindu or not!
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