themanfromtheasylum Posted December 2, 2003 Report Share Posted December 2, 2003 i think we should all except each other's way and let Rubh and Guru ji decide when the time is right for us all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr §ingh Posted December 2, 2003 Report Share Posted December 2, 2003 but we can't say Guru Govind Singh ji COMMANDED US TO DO SOMETHING HE DIDN'T :roll: thats why i'm asking for quotes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 2, 2003 Report Share Posted December 2, 2003 If you wish to get references on kirpan da amrit... Then here is what Amrit write to me in an pm: I took 'Amrit' from Sri Hazoor Sahib. I wrote what I saw myself. I discussed this matter there with the Maraatha Sikhs. I gave the reference of 'Sri Hazoori Maryada Prabodh'. It would have been better if you continue to discuss in this regard and tell the member what has been written in that book. It was easy to prove that book wrong. 'Sri Hazoori Maryada Prabodh' was written by Singh Sahib Joginder Singh, the Jathedar of the Holy Takht of Hazoor Sahib. I am not agreed with many of its views, but I cannot show disrespect for him. After all he was the only person of his time, who served the Holy Angeetha Sahib. I am not Gurbax Singh Kala Afgana, who could start an open war against the Jathedar. We should not forget that at Sri Hazoor Sahib they still distribute 'Kirpan da Amrit' to women. This discussion should not be avoided. We should be realistic. Only for your information sir, I took part as a 'Piyara' in many 'Amrit Sanchars'. As a Piyara, I distributed the 'Khande Da Amrit' to hundreds of women. I never distributed 'Kirpan Da Amrit'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr §ingh Posted December 2, 2003 Report Share Posted December 2, 2003 Hanji that I am aware of the fac that it is given in Hazoor Sahib... but reference or quotes that it KIRPAN DA AMRIT was parchalat during Guru Sahibans time..... and not that its Parchalat Right now .. BHull chukk maaf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 2, 2003 Report Share Posted December 2, 2003 That book "'Sri Hazoori Maryada Prabodh" might have references you are asking for in them. So i suggest everyone who is interested in this issue just look it up or if you guys go to india. Go to sach khand hazoor sahib and spoke with jathedar there. Perhaps amrit or lalleshvari can enlighten us more on this matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr §ingh Posted December 3, 2003 Report Share Posted December 3, 2003 yes thats what I'm waiting for Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest chamkila Posted December 3, 2003 Report Share Posted December 3, 2003 Last time I posted True Singh (or something a long those lines) deleted my post, because I questioned lalleshwari, you guys say these forums allow freedom for speech then you delete my post what freedom is that I ask you True Singh. All I did was say you guys that you should think about banning lalleshwari because once again he is posting stuff with out giving and ref, because of that you delete my post. To me this is a one way thing, only some people are allowed to post what they like and people who speak the true get banned. The most likely thing after me posting this post is I will get ban or you will delete my post. I wanted to post to link to a video which as information about this subject http://saintsoldiers.waheguroo.com/ss/video/akal.wmv Last time true singh deleted this link, looks like he does not want people to know the truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 3, 2003 Report Share Posted December 3, 2003 Last time I posted True Singh (or something a long those lines) deleted my post, because I questioned lalleshwari, you guys say these forums allow freedom for speech then you delete my post what freedom is that I ask you True Singh. All I did was say you guys that you should think about banning lalleshwari because once again he is posting stuff with out giving and ref, because of that you delete my post. To me this is a one way thing, only some people are allowed to post what they like and people who speak the true get banned. The most likely thing after me posting this post is I will get ban or you will delete my post. I wanted to post to link to a video which as information about this subject http://saintsoldiers.waheguroo.com/ss/video/akal.wmv Last time true singh deleted this link, looks like he does not want people to know the truth. Gurfateh veer, That video link has nothing to do with the kirpan da amrit.. i have seen that video.. sant ji talks about khanda battaie da amrit... so this is irrelevant to this topic... you supposed to post that link on another topic under sikh question and answers... As far as deleting the post...you accused lalleshvari to be rss and request us to ban him...reason- Nothing..... you cant just accuse someone like that.. if you want you can prove it how he is rss... yes he is been asked for reference... you have got the reference for kirpan da amrit from amrit one of our respected members.....that shows kirpan da amrit does exist from long time... i m not saying this issue shouldnt be discussed... in fact it should be discussed as an group as an civilized individual.. you see lalleshvari hasnt created kirpan da amrit....he read it in a book .. and discussed it with us... if he thinks that right thing to do.. then members have full right to discuss with him in a civlized manner not like (oh you are admin cut, oh you are rss).. we cant just alllowed that because slandering breeds more hatred between groups. I hope you get it straight this time... !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :roll: :roll: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Javanmard Posted December 3, 2003 Report Share Posted December 3, 2003 References to kirpan da amrit are given in Chaupa Singh Rahitnama as well as in a SIngh Sabha document namely the Khalsa Dharam Shastar of Bhai Avtar SIngh Vahiria of the Amritsar Singh Sabha. Copies of this book are not available so you'll have to go to the British Library. What I don't understand is this: 1. Suppose someone does not like kirpan da amrit: well don't take it and let others do what they want! No one is forcing you to take it! 2. Suppose it's not puratan: why then do Budha Dal and Hazur Sahib, who have the oldest and purest maryada still practice it? Unlike organisations that have been created during the British Raj Budha Dal and Hazur Sahib have an unbroken lineage of jathedars and rahit going back to Guru Gobind Singh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narsingha Posted December 3, 2003 Report Share Posted December 3, 2003 An English transilteration of Sri Hazoori Maryada Prabodh by Baba Joginder Singh Ji of Sach Khand Hazoor Sahib, Nanded, will be available on www.sarbloh.info in the near future. It outlines the maryada (history and traditions) of Sach Khand Hazoor Sahib amongst other things... ...please be patient. Alternatively, you may be able (if you're lucky) to get hold of a copy the next time you visit Sach Khand Hazoor Sahib. As yet I have not come across many copies of this text and it is out of print. It may be worth noting that lalleshvari's analogy of X and Y chromosomes and "kard da amrit" is exactly that....an ANALOGY. It appears some individuals have taken this ANALOGY and wrongly assumed it to be a REASON. Sorry to be so pedantic in pointing out such minor details, but it appears some illiterate people, who as yet are still wrestling with English language need to be told what is an analogy and what isnt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr §ingh Posted December 3, 2003 Report Share Posted December 3, 2003 References to kirpan da amrit are given in Chaupa Singh Rahitnama as well as in a SIngh Sabha document namely the Khalsa Dharam Shastar of Bhai Avtar SIngh Vahiria of the Amritsar Singh Sabha. Copies of this book are not available so you'll have to go to the British Library. What I don't understand is this: 1. Suppose someone does not like kirpan da amrit: well don't take it and let others do what they want! No one is forcing you to take it! 2. Suppose it's not puratan: why then do Budha Dal and Hazur Sahib, who have the oldest and purest maryada still practice it? Unlike organisations that have been created during the British Raj Budha Dal and Hazur Sahib have an unbroken lineage of jathedars and rahit going back to Guru Gobind Singh. Lallesh bHaji Still No Quotes Some of Bhai Chaupa Singh ji's Rehatnames, also include stuff that doesn't go inline with Gurbani, i.e. about Women! More about Bhai Chaupa SIngh ji's rehatnamas: http://www.sikhawareness.com/sikhawareness...ht=chaupa+singh still I dont see any quote as I have been nagging about :roll: NarSingha.. Please tell me when u have added the rehat Maryada on ur page! also if possible not only historical context but also WHY (pholosfical perspectivers of it ) and Quote will be appreciated I still can't believe why u are insisting on not believein in Taksaal, and Believe in Hazoor Sahib Rehat (no offence) which is COMPLETELY SURROUNDED BY HINDU AREA! In other wodrs, have a great probability of being altered for Hindu tradition etc :roll: I might be Wrong..MAy Guru Ji put everyone on the right path BHULL CHUKK MAF! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 3, 2003 Report Share Posted December 3, 2003 Amrit from sikhawareness is writing on article on kirpan da amrit with references page number.. above book mentioned by narsingha, lalleshvari.. you will get the page numbers tom.. he should be done by tom.. so please be pateint!!!!!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Javanmard Posted December 3, 2003 Report Share Posted December 3, 2003 MrSIngh wrote: I still can't believe why u are insisting on not believein in Taksaal, and Believe in Hazoor Sahib Rehat (no offence) which is COMPLETELY SURROUNDED BY HINDU AREA! In other wodrs, have a great probability of being altered for Hindu tradition etc If that's so true then: 1. How come Muslims and Christians in that area do not get influenced by "Hindu superstitions"? 2. What kind of "HIndus"? Shaivas, Vaishnavas, Smartas... 3. Arti was a courtly ceremony perfomed before kings. The fact that brahmins do it in front of murtian does not make it a "HIndu" ritual. Hazur Sahib does arti arta doesn't mean it's a Hindu influence! 4. Kirpan da amrit does in no way discriminate against women in fact it recognises their feminity 5. Women and men are equal yes but they are not the same! 6. Chaupa Singh Rahitnama says that SIkh women are the teachers of their husbands, I don't think that's discrimination!!! IT's recognition of women's wisdom and qualities!!!Khalsa Soulja's "article" on Chaupa SIngh Rahtinama is incomplete and out of context as it fails to mention other features of the text and does not contextualise it! 7. Is your (you as in people in general not MrSIngh in particular) faith in Sikhi so weak that a bit of incense and lights and flowers make you feel so insecure. Why does recognising women as special beings make you so insecure? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr §ingh Posted December 3, 2003 Report Share Posted December 3, 2003 MrSIngh wrote: If that's so true then: 1. How come Muslims and Christians in that area do not get influenced by "Hindu superstitions"? 2. What kind of "HIndus"? Shaivas, Vaishnavas, Smartas... 3. Arti was a courtly ceremony perfomed before kings. The fact that brahmins do it in front of murtian does not make it a "HIndu" ritual. Hazur Sahib does arti arta doesn't mean it's a Hindu influence! 4. Kirpan da amrit does in no way discriminate against women in fact it recognises their feminity 5. Women and men are equal yes but they are not the same! 6. Chaupa Singh Rahitnama says that SIkh women are the teachers of their husbands, I don't think that's discrimination!!! IT's recognition of women's wisdom and qualities!!!Khalsa Soulja's "article" on Chaupa SIngh Rahtinama is incomplete and out of context as it fails to mention other features of the text and does not contextualise it! 7. Is your (you as in people in general not MrSIngh in particular) faith in Sikhi so weak that a bit of incense and lights and flowers make you feel so insecure. Why does recognising women as special beings make you so insecure? I shall refute ur arguements as soon as u get QUOTES of this .. until that, I shall remain silent btw.. this is a humble BENTI..please when bringing such arguements about Kirpan da Amrit..PLEASE DO RESEARCH about it and BRING QUOTES!!! Now I'm still waiting for them ..and got a feeling this waiting isn't really short-term :roll: I will for sure refute as u provide the quotes,..as Scholars usually use.... SCRIPTURAL referances along with HISTORICAL, and NOT ONLY ONE OF THEM (that is IF both are available ) when discussing.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Javanmard Posted December 3, 2003 Report Share Posted December 3, 2003 I gave the textual references already, if you do not wish to read or do not know those texts then I am sorry discussion is not possible. Also make sure you're able to read those texts in their original language and know their context if not: then don't even try to refure my arguments! ps be so kind and sort your English out as well! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr §ingh Posted December 3, 2003 Report Share Posted December 3, 2003 I gave the textual references already, if you do not wish to read or do not know those texts then I am sorry discussion is not possible. Also make sure you're able to read those texts in their original language and know their context if not: then don't even try to refure my arguments! ps be so kind and sort your English out as well! References to kirpan da amrit are given in Chaupa Singh Rahitnama as well as in a SIngh Sabha document namely the Khalsa Dharam Shastar of Bhai Avtar SIngh Vahiria of the Amritsar Singh Sabha. Copies of this book are not available so you'll have to go to the British Library. still no quotes :roll: I did not ask for TEXTUAL documents, I ask for SCRIPTURAL in other words QUOTES from BHaji Chaupa Singh ji thats all I'm asking for! still waiting for the quotes! Until I get those u CANNOT CLAIM u HAVE PROVIDED ANYTHING..cause U have lcaim Bhai Chaupa Singh ji's RehatNama includes this then PROVIDE THE QUOTe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singh132 Posted December 3, 2003 Report Share Posted December 3, 2003 Laleshwari, I havn't posted here for quite some time, but now I have to. Please show me where in the Chaupa Singh rehitnama it says anything about kirpaan amrit. Anywhere. It mentions this: "Jo Sikh, SikhNee noo(n) khanday dee paahul naa dayvay, so Tankhaiyaa" (105) meaning, "that Sikh who does not give khanday kee paahul to a female-Sikh, is a Tankhaiyaa". You keep whining about taking things out of context. You learned this phrase from some book and keept parroting it. Explain what part of the Chaupa Singh article was out of context. And please do offer the context it lacks. I have never, NEVER read about kirpaan amrit. I've read this in Prem Sumaarag about giving women Khanday Kee Paahul, "Fayr, Sikh kareeai, jougat naal paahul khandai kee deejeeai. Ar Ardaas kareeai: "Jee! Eh jee man bach karam kar Khalsay kaa jama pehar kay SikhNee hoee hai. Khushee karho! Jo Sree Akaal Purakh apnay marag kaa rang bakhshay. Anand saath rahai" Meaning, "Then, make her a Sikh, by giving her Khanday Kee Paahul with the proper method. Then do ardaas" "Lord! This one has by word and action taken on the form of a Khalsa and become your Sikhnee (female Sikh). Be pleased! May Akaal Purakh give her the divine colours of his path. May she live in bliss." Then you ask why Muslims/Christians don't get influenced by Hindu practices in that area. What are you talking about??? The Muslims of Bombay celebrate Diwali and are considered very Hinduised. Kung writes, "Hindu forms of song, postures, gestures, dances, decoration", and "appropriate texts from the Vedas, which attest to the transition of humanity to the transcendental dimension" have found a place in Christianity in India (Kung, 283). Christian missionaries lament how many "Christian" homes have idols of Hindu gods inside. Anyways, please do post some proof/evidence of the authenticity of kirpaan amrit. Arguments like "wait for the website" or "I don't like your English style" are not acceptable. Either show kirpaan amrit's authenticity or give up and continue to believe in this deviant practice privately. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr §ingh Posted December 4, 2003 Report Share Posted December 4, 2003 :yo: :yo: Good reply Singh 132 bhaji.. We got some REALLY Good educated Sikhs around here Great post :yo: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narsingha Posted December 4, 2003 Report Share Posted December 4, 2003 I have never, NEVER read about kirpaan amrit. I've read this in Prem Sumaarag about giving women Khanday Kee Paahul, "Fayr, Sikh kareeai, jougat naal paahul khandai kee deejeeai. Ar Ardaas kareeai: "Jee! Eh jee man bach karam kar Khalsay kaa jama pehar kay SikhNee hoee hai. Khushee karho! Jo Sree Akaal Purakh apnay marag kaa rang bakhshay. Anand saath rahai" Meaning, "Then, make her a Sikh, by giving her Khanday Kee Paahul with the proper method. Then do ardaas" "Lord! This one has by word and action taken on the form of a Khalsa and become your Sikhnee (female Sikh). Be pleased! May Akaal Purakh give her the divine colours of his path. May she live in bliss." Singh132, could you explain the use of the term "Sikhnee" in Prem Sumarag as opposed to "Singhnee" which is used today. Also, seeing that you have quoted from Prem Sumarag with regards to this topic, does this mean you acknowledge Prem Sumarg as being a reliable source of history and accept what it says? Thanks.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singh132 Posted December 4, 2003 Report Share Posted December 4, 2003 Narsingh, I'm pretty sure you're aware of my approach to rehitnamas. When looking at a rehitnama, I never accept or reject one in its totality. I use rehitnamas as supplementary documents. In this case, we were examining whether women receive Khanday Kee Paahul or Kirpaan Amrit. So looking at some older sources, we find that they mention khanday kee paahul for women, but kirpaan amrit is mentioned no where. I do not consider Prem Sumarag a document I would accept in its entirety as I don't agree with everything in it. But the fact remains that no where can I find any reference to kirpaan amrit anywhere, while references to khanday kee pahul for women can be found in different places. But please stick to the topic and answer the question: where is kirpaan amrit mentioned ANYWHERE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narsingha Posted December 4, 2003 Report Share Posted December 4, 2003 Narsingh, I'm pretty sure you're aware of my approach to rehitnamas. When looking at a rehitnama, I never accept or reject one in its totality. I use rehitnamas as supplementary documents. In this case, we were examining whether women receive Khanday Kee Paahul or Kirpaan Amrit. So looking at some older sources, we find that they mention khanday kee paahul for women, but kirpaan amrit is mentioned no where. I do not consider Prem Sumarag a document I would accept in its entirety as I don't agree with everything in it. But the fact remains that no where can I find any reference to kirpaan amrit anywhere, while references to khanday kee pahul for women can be found in different places. But please stick to the topic and answer the question: where is kirpaan amrit mentioned ANYWHERE. Could you now explain why you choose to selectively quote from these "supplementary texts" when the passages/statements suit your cause, and reject them when they do not appeal to your ideology? Using your flawed, neigh, even warped methodology, one can justify just about anything.....indeed, you destroy the what little objectivity that remains within historical documents. Once again (for the benefit of those who have problems of selective reading..)...regarding references to "kard da amrit", please refer to the text by Baba Joginder Singh mentioned in my earlier post , and the texts also mentioned by lalleshvari. From your last statement, it appears you have missed my posting, and also lalleshvari's where we mention the texts that speak of "kard da Amrit". Please do not expect us to re-write and translate entire texts on this forum for your benefit. I am sure you are capable of reading these texts yourself. Apologies, but your approach leaves much to be desired. Good day :wink: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 4, 2003 Report Share Posted December 4, 2003 One of our respected member "amrit" has posted this article under submit your own articles. I posted here this might be helpful in this debate. There are references given...if singh132 refute them ... i ll post his responses under that thread as well so amrit can respond back. source: http://www.sikhawareness.com/sikhawareness...opic.php?t=2823 At the end no personal cheap insluts, no calling names...will be deleted or edited then and there...just keep it clean guys. Happy Debating!!!!!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 4, 2003 Report Share Posted December 4, 2003 I just posted an article on 'Kirpan Da Amrit'(http://www.sikhawareness.com/sikhawareness...opic.php?t=2823). I have the first edition of 'Sri Hazoori Maryada Prabodh'. It was published in 1967. Not only 'Kirpan Da Amrit', but there are some other topics in that book , which will be discussed here, I hope. It was very shocking for me that people do not know much about 'Kirpan Da Amrit'. When I wrote that I myself saw 'Kirpan Da Amrit' being distributed in Sri Hazoor Sahib, it could have been taken as if I am supporting it. :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: If the moderators and the members are ready, we can discuss all the topics (of 'Sri Hazoori Maryada Prabodh') one by one in this forum. By doing so, we will be making a difference. I think we need not to wait for its publication online. We have already www.sikhawareness.com Here is what I posted on http://www.sikhawareness.com/sikhawareness...opic.php?t=2823 The Sikhism is like a school. The Guru Granth Sahib Ji is the principal and the only teacher in this school. Though anyone can take free lessons from the Holy Sri Guru Granth Sahib, the certified students learn more quickly, because they are the regular students. The regular students attend their classes. They take daily lessons. Every school has an admission system. Most of the schools publish an admission form. If someone wants to get admission, he has to fill up the form and submit it in the office. He has to appear in an interview. The interviewer asks some question and if he is satisfied, he admits the interviewee into his school. The school of Sikhism has its own procedure of admission. If someone wants to get admission into this school, he/she has to follow the procedure. He/she will have to appear for an interview. The ‘Panj Piyare’ (five beloved ones) are the interviewers in this school. The seeker of admissioin appears before them. They ask him/her some questions. If they are satisfied, they tell the rules of the school. If the seeker is ready to follow the rules, he/she can get the admission. But the procedure of admission is not completed yet. The five beloved ones prepare the ‘Amrit’, the nectar. This nectar is prepared and distributed to the seeker in a ceremony, which is called ‘Amrit Sanchar’. The nectar is prepared in an iron bowl. The five beloved ones sit around it. Clean water and sweet puffs are put in the iron bowl. The five beloved ones recite the Gurbani (Jap ji, Jaap sahib, Swayyas, Chaupayee and Anand Sahib) one by one and keep stirring the water with a ‘khanda’ (double-edged sword). This is the Sikh baptism. Because this nectar is prepared using the ‘khanda’, so it is called ‘Khande Da Amrit’ (the nectar of double-edged sword). It is also called ‘Khande Dee Pahul’, ‘Pahul Khandedhaar’ and ‘Khandedhaar Pahul’. This ‘Khande Da Amrit’ is distributed to every man and woman, who wants to get the admission into the Holy school of Sikhism, who wants to be the Sikh of Sri Guru Granth Sahib. When some people visit Takht Sri Hazoor Sahib, they find that the women are baptized by the kirpan (sword) instead of ‘khanda’ during ‘Amrit Sanchar’. While baptizing the women, only Jap Ji Sahib, few stanzas from Jaap Sahib, and six stanzas from Anand Sahib is read. Only one beloved one (Panj Piyara) prepares the Amrit. This Amrit is called ‘Kirpan Da Amrit’. Here, I want to make it clear that there are two types of ‘Kirpan Da Amrit’. One is distributed to the women while baptism. Other is distributed to newborn baby. The ‘Kirpan Da Amrit’ distributed to newborn baby is not considered a baptism. It is distributed so that the parents can eat with their babies in a same utensil. It is considered a religious ritual. The distribution of ‘Kirpan Da Amrit’ to newborn is a very old tradition in some Gursikh Families. An Amritdhari person recites Sri Jap Ji Sahib and prepares the nectar in an iron bowl with a sword. (Some people recite only first five stanzas of Sri Jap Ji Sahib). Then he put some drops of it into the mouth of newborn using the sword as a spoon. My Nana Ji (the father of mother) himself prepared ‘Kirpan Da Amrit’, when I was born. I was distributed ‘Kirpan Da Amrit’ by my Nana Ji himself. It is an old tradition in our families and still kept alive. I do not find anything wrong in this tradition. Distributing this Amrit to newborn is not the baptism. When the child grows, it has to take ‘Khande Da Amrit’. I was distributed ‘Kirpan Da Amrit’ when I was born, but later I was baptized through ‘Khande Da Amrit’. Now, let us discuss about the ‘Kirpan Da Amrit’ as a baptism for the women. I am a Hazoori Singh (often called Hazooriya). I tasted the holy nectar (Amrit) at Takht Sri Hazoor Sahib. I myself saw that the women were baptized by a single beloved one. He prepared the nectar by a small sword. Though, it is said that Jap Ji, few stanzas from Jaap Sahib, and six stanzas from Anand Sahib is read while preparing ‘Kirpan Da Amrit’; it is possible that only the Jap Ji Sahib is read practically. The people want to know what is its history. They want to know what is the logic behind it to baptize the women by kirpan instead of khanda. I think that the book ‘Sri Hazoori Maryada Prabodh’ represents the views of the people, who support ‘Kirpan Da Amrit’ for women. ‘Sri Hazoori Maryada Prabodh’ is written by Singh Sahib Joginder Singh ji, the then Jathedar of Takht Sachkhand Abichal Nagar Hazoor Sahib (He died some years ago). It was written and published in 1967. I used its first edition while giving references. In this book, the topic ‘Kirpan Da Amrit Maayeeyaan Noon’ (the nectar of sword for women) has been discussed (from page 235 to page 246). Singh Sahib Joginder Singh ji has given a reference to a book ‘Pram Satra Granth’ (perhaps misprint). He did not tell who was the writer of ‘Pram Satra Granth’. Singh Sahib Joginder Singh wrote that according to ‘Pram Satra Granth’, it is an old tradition to distribute ‘Kirpan Da Amrit’ to the woman. At the beginning, only ‘Charan Pahul’ (the water, which is used to wash the feet of Guru) was allowed for women. But some Amritdhari (who tasted the nectar) men do not eat the food, which is cooked by non-Amritdhari, so it was thought that women should be distributed ‘Kirpan Da Amrit’. The other reason given in the book is that without ‘Kirpan Da Amrit’, the women cannot get useful ideas to help their warrior husbands. This was the reason to distribute ‘Kirpan Da Amrit’ to the women. Actually, the writer of ‘Pram Satra Granth’ is trying to say that even ‘Kirpan Da Amrit’ was not allowed for the women. The ‘Charan Pahul’ was the valid baptism for them. The writer did not tell that if ‘Charan Pahul’ was the valid baptism for the women, then who started the ‘Kirpan Da Amrit’. He did not tell whether eating the food, which is cooked only by an Amritdhari, is based on the Gurbani or not. He did not tell whether such Amritdhari persons take the medicines prepared by non-Amritdhari people or not. It is the accepted fact that after March 30, 1699 A.D., when ‘Khalsa Panth’ was created, Guru Gobind Singh did not distribute anyone his ‘Charan Pahul’. ‘Khande Da Amrit’ was a substitute for the ‘Charan Pahul’. How was it possible that the women were still being baptized through ‘Charan Pahul’? If someone still persists, he should tell that whose ‘feet’ were being washed to prepare ‘Charan Pahul’ after Guru Gobind Singh left his physical body. So, it is wrong to say that ‘Charan Pahul’ was a valid baptism even after the creation of Khalsa Panth or after 1708 A.D. (when Guru Gobind Singh left his physical body). According to the writer of ‘Pram Satra Granth’, it is the God’s will that there is difference in physical structure of men and women. There is difference in gents-jewellery and ladies-jewellery. There is difference in their activities, like the birth of child etc. So, there is difference in men’s nectar and women’s nectar. I think this is not less than a joke. The Amrit is not jewellery. It has to do nothing with physical structure. The Amrit is a necessity to get admission into the School of Guru. If oxygen is needed for physical body, the Amrit is needed for spiritual body. We cannot live physically without oxygen; we cannot live spiritually without the nectar. The physical body needs the water; the spiritual body needs the nectar. It does not make any difference if one has not any jewellery. The differences in physical structure do not make much difference. The men and the women take birth in a same way. Both of them die in a same way. Both of them fall ill in a same way. Both of them laugh in a same way. Both of them weep in a same way. Why is there a different way to prepare the Amrit? The men and the women drink the same water. Both of them use the same air to breath. Both of them eat the same food. Both of them take the same medicine when they fall ill. Why do they need different Amrits (nectars)? The writer says that the Amritdhari men keep the ‘Khanda and Kirpan’ on their heads. He says that the ‘Khanda’ and the ‘Kirpan’ is a pair, as a male and a female are a couple. I think the writer is talking about the ‘Khanda Kirpan’, which is like a badge. Here I want to say that all the Amritdhari men do not keep ‘Khanda and Kirpan’ (a kind of badge) on their turbans. Secondly, there are not only ‘Khanda’ and ‘Kirpan’ in that badge, but there is also a ‘Chakar’ (a round shaped weapon). If the ‘Khanda’ represents a male and ‘Kirpan’ represents a female, then what about the ‘Chakar’? Whom does the ‘Chakar’ represent? And also, there are two swords in that badge. Does it mean a male should have two females? A ‘Khanda’ and two swords do not make a pair. And there is a ‘Chakar’ also. The writer has given a reference to ‘Rahatnama Bhayee Chaupa Singh Ji. In reply to this, I would like to say that the ‘Rahatnamas’ are not the Gurbani. There are many things in the ‘Rahatnamas’, which cannot be accepted. Interestingly, S. Kartar Singh Khalsa, Jatha Bhindran (Mehta) quoted Bhayee Chaupa Singh differently, “Jo Sikh, Sikhani Noo Khande Dee Pahul Na Deve, So Tankhahiya” (The Sikh, who does not give ‘Khande Dee Pahul’ to Sikhani (Sikh-woman), is a culprit). (See: ‘Khalsa Jeevan and Gurmat Rahat Maryada’ written by S. Kartar Singh Khalsa, Jatha Bhindran (Mehta), page 180, edition 1977). Thus, there is adulteration in the ‘Rahatnama’. The writer says sarcastically that he, who supports ‘Khande Da Amrit’ to women, should pray before the God to transform a woman into a man. There is no need to pray for such a transformation. It is the God’s own will that some are men and some are women. He has the power to transform the women into men and the men into women. The Gurbani says, “Naaree Te Jo Purakh Karaavai, Purakhan Te Jo Naaree. Kaho Kabeer Saadhoo Ko Pritam, Tis Moorat Balehaaree” (He, the God, who transforms the woman into a man and the men into women, says Kabeer, is beloved of the Saints. I am a sacrifice to His image). (Sri Guru Granth Sahib, page 1252). There is another ridiculous argument against ‘Khande Da Amrit’ to women. The writers says that if a woman remains a woman, remains a wife and becomes pregnant as usual even after taking ‘Khande Da Amrit’, then what is the use of ‘Khande Da Amrit’. A man remains a man and a woman remains a woman even after taking ‘Khande Da Amrit’. If ‘Khande Da Amrit’ does not transform a male into a woman, then how can someone expect a woman to be transformed into a man? If we follow the Gurbani, ‘Khande Da Amrit’ can transform us into angels without any delay, “Balehaaree Gur Aapne, Diohaarhee Sad Vaar. Jin Maanas Te Devte Keeye, Karat Naa Laagee Vaar” (I am a sacrifice to my Guru a hundred times a day, who made angels out of human beings, and it was done without any delay). (Sri Guru Granth Sahib, page 462). In 1967 A.D., the Deputy Jathedar of Takh Sri Hazoor Sahib demanded that the women should be distributed ‘Khande Da Amrit’. A meeting of the high priests (Granthis) and some members of management was arranged. But they cannot decide anything. At that time, the supporters of ‘Kirpan Da Amrit’ asked some questions to the high priests and members of management. I do not know what answers were given at that time. But, if I am asked the same questions now, I have my answers. Let us see what were the questions: - Question: Will you allow the women, who tasted ‘Khande Da Amrit’, to bow their head right before the door (of ‘Angeethha Sahib’)? My answer: Why not? What is the problem to let her do so? Question: Will you allow the women (who tasted ‘Khande Da Amrit’) to take ‘Hukamnama’ from Sri Guru Granth Sahib within the railing of the Holy Takht Sahib? My answer: Why not? What is the problem to let her do so? Question: Can a woman, who tasted ‘Khande Da Amrit’, take ‘Karhaah Prasaad’ distributed for ‘the five beloved ones’? My answer: Why not? What is the problem to let her do so? Question: Can a woman, who tasted ‘Khande Da Amrit’, take part in ‘Amrit Sanchar’ as one of the five beloved ones? My answer: Why not? What is the problem to let her do so? Even in Punjab, some people are against the participation of women in ‘Amrit Sanchar’. I read in a magazine published by a self-styled saint, which said that according to ‘Rahatnama’, the five Singhs (Amritdhari males) are allowed to distribute the nectar. The magazine gave a reference of a ‘Rahatnama’, which says, “Paanch Singh Amrit Jo Devai. Taa Ko Chhakk Sir Dhar Pun Levai” (The nectar, which is given by the five Singhs, one should taste and then put it on head). The word ‘Singh’ (literary means lion) is used both for the Amritdhari men and women. In Sri Guru Granth Sahib, we see this line, “Singh Ruchai Sad Bhojan Maas” (The lion is always interested in meat). (Sri Guru Granth Sahib, page 1180). If lion wants to eat meat, the lioness too has the same desire. Thus, here the word ‘singh’ has been used both for the lion and the lioness. In the Gurbani, the masculine word ‘Sikh’ has been used both for man and woman. Actually, there is only one man in this world. All other are the women. “Is Jag Maih Purakh Ek Hai, Hor Sagalee Naar Sabaayee” (In this world, there is one Man; all other beings are women. (Sri Guru Granth Sahib, page 591). Question: The women are not allowed to prepare the holy food for ‘Bhog’ at Takht Sahib. Will you allow a woman, who tasted ‘Khande Da Amrit’, to prepare the food? My answer: Why not? What is the problem to let her do so? Question: Can a woman, who tasted ‘Khande Da Amrit’, take part in ‘Guru Kee Bauli Kee Sewa’ (the service of step-well of Guru)? (There is a historic step-well at Sri Hazoor Sahib). My answer: Why not? What is the problem to let her do so? Question: Can a woman, who tasted ‘Khande Da Amrit’, take part in ‘Gaagar Dee Sewa’ (service of metallic pitcher)? (Amritdhari men bring water in metallic pitchers from the river Godavari, for washing the Takht Sahib). My answer: Why not? What is the problem to let her do so? Question: Will you allow a woman, who tasted ‘Khande Da Amrit’, to do the ‘Chaur Dee Sewa’ (to wave the holy whisk)? My answer: Why not? What is the problem to let her do so? Question: Can a woman, who tasted ‘Khande Da Amrit’, take part in the holy procession as one of the five beloved ones? My answer: Why not? What is the problem to let her do so? Singh Sahib Joginder Singh has criticized the SGPC, Akali Dal, Bhasaurees (Panch Khalsa Diwan, Bhasaur) and Bhai Randhir Singh’s group. He wrote that all these organizations are against the ‘Raagmala’. He wrote that ‘Bhasaurees’ were against the ‘Bhagatbani’. I think the SGPC is not the ‘Panth’ itself. It is an organization, whose members are elected by the Punjabi Sikhs only. There are other organizations too, like the Delhi Sikh Gurdwara Prabandhak Committee, which take care of the Sikh places. Secondly, the ‘Raagmala’ is read everywhere except Sri Akal Takht. Akali Dal is a political party. This party has non-Sikh members too. Now, there are many Akali Dals. A political party has nothing to do with a religious matter. Bhai Randhir Singh organized ‘Akhand Keertani Jatha’. Most of the members of this Group do not read the ‘Raagmala’. Other accept it the Gurbani. Bhai Randhir Singh was once a member of ‘Panch Khalsa Diwan, Bhasaur’. I did not see any article against the ‘Bhagatbani’ and ‘Raagmala’ written by Bhai Randhir Singh. Even if he was against the Raagmala, it has nothing to do with ‘Kirpan Da Amrit’. The ‘Panch Khalsa Diwan, Bhasaur’ is now lying in its tomb, though sometimes its ghost wanders here and there. Recently, a writer (now excommunicated) was possessed by this ghost. I hope that one day, this ghost will be caught and kept in a bottle forever. Thus, we reach on a conclusion that there should not be a separate ‘Kirpan Da Amrit’ for the women. ‘Khande Da Amrit’ is the only accepted baptism in Sikhism. -Amrit Pal Singh 'Amrit' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Javanmard Posted December 4, 2003 Report Share Posted December 4, 2003 It seems that our friends who talk against the institution of kirpan da amrit are a bit lost now... If some people have not read about it well read the books I have indicated. The fact that you haven't read about it does not mean that it does not exist! The danger with just giving quotes is this: you place it outside of its context! Read the whole books! They're available practically everywhere or can be ordered! Anyone can use quotes out of context! THat's why I want to make sure that if I have a discussion on kirpan da amrit the people I discuss it with have read the same sources as me. If you have not read the whole Chaupa SIngh Rahitnama then abstain from this debate. If you can't formulate sentences in English don't debate, if you have no methodology don't debate. Amrit, N3O SIngh and Narsingha have made the effort of reading up the literature on kirpan da amrit so why wouldn't other people do it? Amrit's contribution is most welcome even though I have problem with the negation of charan di pahul for sahajdharis. Charan di pahul is given by the panj pyare who represent the Guru. The Sevapanthi sampradaya still gives charan di pahul to sahajdharis wich proves that charan di pahul was still given after 1708. Ther panj pyare representing the Guru are the only ones who can give it. But that's another issue... My interpretation of kirpan da amrit is different and I believe firmly that it actually constitutes an empowerment of womanhood without the masculinisation process demanded by SGPC and AKJ. It recognises women as special beings and recognises their feminity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niranjana Posted December 4, 2003 Report Share Posted December 4, 2003 Amrit Veerji, Thanks for your help, I find your suggestion below to be a great one and indeed something I would certainly welcome...please roll it on and let us share in learning (and praticing) more of our rich heritage! GUR BAR AKAAAALLLL!!! <<If the moderators and the members are ready, we can discuss all the topics (of 'Sri Hazoori Maryada Prabodh') one by one in this forum. By doing so, we will be making a difference. I think we need not to wait for its publication online. >> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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