CdnSikhGirl

Truth Seeker... The Gurdwara here locally, has made history twice now, by having ALL FEMALE executive... TWICE! That's EVERY single position on the executive were elected females! Including the President. And every year at least one member is female. This year we have 3 females... Secretary, Treasurer, and a Member at Large. I am actually the treasurer! Here is a story about when we had all female executive and our president: http://www.sikhchic.com/people/taking_the_bull_by_the_horns I especially like when she explains: "With education, economic empowerment and an analytical look back at the teachings and lives of the Gurus, the study of Sikh Scriptures has reawakened Sikh women as well as Sikh men. They are now conscious of rights of women as equal partners in human progress, and citing the Holy Scriptures, they are fighting back for these rights. Sikhism promised an equal place to women but unfortunately the practice fell far short of the preaching."

Truthseeker... this is best how I can explain it: Everything we know to be real physically is illusion. Space, and even time are constructs. The Ultimate underlying reality is formless (no space) and unchanging (no time). Hard to picture right? Not if you look at quantum physics which states that everything really IS illusion. If you peer deeper and deeper into reality you will see that matter really is not solid. The tiny particles that exist beyond the subatomic level, behave strangely and electrons specifically, actually pop into and out of existence based on whether or not there is a conscious observer (google measurement problem / double slit experiment) Now, EVERY single atom is made of electrons. Now, everything in existence is made up of electrons as part of the atoms which make up elements etc... this is profound because scientists can not explain it. Why an electron ceases to be ' matter' and behaves as a wave (which on its own is not anything substantial, but is merely energy passing through a medium of some sort. This tells us that reality is not how we perceive it with our physical senses. And even more profound is that even our physical brains are made up of these same particles! Therefore consciousness must exist beyond the physical (or else there would be no conscious 'observer' to make the electrons come into existence which make up our brains!) Page 21, Line 4 ਜਹ ਦੇਖਾ ਤਹ ਰਵਿ ਰਹੇ ਸਿਵ ਸਕਤੀ ਕਾ ਮੇਲੁ ॥ Jah ḏekẖā ṯah rav rahe siv sakṯī kā mel. Wherever I look, I see the Lord pervading there, in the union of Shiva and Shakti, of consciousness and matter. So at the base level of existence exists consciousness and ONLY consciousness. Are we finally through science peering at Creator?? At this level all is unchanging. Think about it. Every electron is identical... every quark is identical, and yet somehow they come together to create all these vast different animals, plants, minerals, humans... it doesnt make sense logically because say if you stack a bunch of ping pong balls, they will always be just a stack of pingpong balls right? Something must be affecting everything at that base level and since matter does not exist without a conscious observer, it must be pure consciousness. So if consciousness is not created by matter, and is not matter itself, and it exists outside of physical reality then what is it? Science again can give us a bit of a clue in that everything in the Universe is coordinated by frequency / vibration. Light is frequency, sound is frequency, radiation is frequency, electromagnetism is frequency (this is the force that holds atoms together) etc. Consciousness itself can be measured as purely frequencies by EEG. SGGSJ too tells us about frequency and vibration and refers to celestial sound currents. Its no wonder that we are told that when we detune from this world, we can hear these vibrations / sound currents. So basically all of existence is non-physical. Its formless, and absolute. There is no time no space just pure frequency. This pure frequency IS consciousness itself. And there is only ONE. Okay so what is creation then? A thought? A dream? ਭਭਾ ਭਰਮੁ ਮਿਟਾਵਹੁ ਅਪਨਾ ॥ Bẖabẖā bẖaram mitāvhu apnā. BHABHA: Cast out your doubt and delusion - ਇਆ ਸੰਸਾਰੁ ਸਗਲ ਹੈ ਸੁਪਨਾ ॥ I▫ā sansār sagal hai supnā. this world is just a dream. So, there is ONE Consciousness, and it's dreaming or thinking this reality into existence. Inside the dream, there is time and space (think about when you dream at night.... how can you say how much 'space' your dreamworld takes up? You can't because in reality its only frequency of your thoughts. In your dreams, there are different characters right? Some seem to interact separately from you... but are they really separate? Or are ALL the dream characters really created by your own thoughts? Imagine in your dream you are chased by a monster... is that monster some separate entity? Or is it still part of you and being controlled by your own consciousness (or subconscious)?? All the good and all the bad that happen within your dreams are still ALL YOU. Now... the kicker... rembering that this world is ALSO just a dream. And there was only ever ONE consciousness... then WHO really is the dreamer?? Or are you just the little dreamer within the BIG dream?? Remember that we have peered into quantum level and this reality is also not the solid matter we think it is! IT TOO is merely frequency!!! And consciousness creates the construct that we experience. So can you understand now, how ALL of the characters are really ONE Creator playing all of them? And also how a dream would evolve over time? We know the Universe is expanding right? What is it expanding into? What lies beyond? This dilemma ceases to exist when you realize that the Universe is the dream, and dreams do not take up any space at all since they are merely thoughts. As the dreamer continues to dream, the dreamworld gets larger, and expands.... think again of your own dreams. You start on a road and then you drive down that road, and the construct gets larger as your mind creates more and more dreamworld. Now to reincarnation... the question of life after death is moot really. Classical idea of reincarnation doesnt make sense... but when you look at it as that the nonphysical consciousness is evolving and becoming self aware, then it makes sense. It's a constant process of continually unfolding consciousness and awareness. Since we are all part of that consciousness, and these bodies are just shells... just dream characters, then the only real true consciousness is that of Waheguru Ji. And there is no separateness... there never was. It's just an illusion of separateness. At some point you will have played the part of every character that has ever lived or ever will live. In fact you have already done this! Because in actuality they are all really the same ONE actor. You/I/We have just forgotten who we really are. So why did the Creator cause itself to become lost in this dreamworld as many separate characters who have forgotten who they really are? Because its the only way it can contemplate itself (because from the vantage point of ONEness it knows nothing else) It has been said that reality is the act of the ONE Creator, subjectively experiencing itself through its own creation. A process of unfolding consciousness... the Universe itself is becoming self aware. I could post many Gurbani tuks to support all of the above, however its already a long read... LOL. You can find them yourself!

Found in Persian literature....from the scholar Ghulam Mohyiuddin, an emissary to the mughal emperor, who observed the first amrit sanchar first hand, vaisakhi 1699: "Though orthodox men have opposed him, about twenty thousand men and women have taken baptism of steel at his hand on the first day.The Guru has also told the gathering: I'll call myself Gobind Singh only if I can make the meek sparrows pounce upon the hawks and tear them; only if one combatant of my force equals a lakh and a quarter of the enemy." Because he was witnessing this event as an outsider and Muslim at that, he had no reason to make it up. Instead of specifying 'Sikhs' or even just 'people' or 'infedels' he used the words 'men and women' to specify that both took Amrit that first day.

That would be somewhat more acceptable as at least Amrit Sanchars could not happen without a woman then. But I don't know of any cases where it's stated this must be done by a female. And Panj Pyares for other duties? (ie, dishing out punishment for fallen, permission to remarry after divorce, taking part in nagar kirtans etc, since those duties do not involve amrit sanchar you are fine with women acting as panj pyares in those cases? It's only Amrit Sanchar that you think they should be all male... and you think men should be barred from adding the patasa?? I think many women would be ok with this... but in most cases woman are not even allowed to be the ones to add the patasa. Its done also by a male.

Yes I know... the DDT Singh was the comment about 'uncleanliness' not the incident at Darbar Sahib. That was one of the jathedars there I think... my point was that mindset already exists there.

They are on here!!!!!!! Do a quick search and you find the threads!! (note: Chaupa Singh Rhetnama)

LIONESS - get it right Actually, physical birth requires BOTH male and female... a woman can not get pregnant alone you know! And Amrit Sancahr is SPIRITUAL rebrith... spirit/soul is genderless. (well, actually in Gurbani we are considered female in spirit, and Akal Purakh is the only male... but I mean physical gender, it's got nothing to do with it) Further God is said to be BOTH the female and the male. Both the cehess board and the pieces... so the physical shell covering the soul has nothing to do with spiritual rebirth. I know you disagree with me... but really... it's not your *male appendage* that's stirring the amrit... in fact your *male appendage* plays no part in the ceremony at all! We can agree to disagree as long as Sikh Rehet Maryada exists, and there are places I can take Amrit where it doesn't have to be all males. AKJ, 3HO, or even many non affiliated gurdwaras that dont associate with specific jathas at all that follow SRM.

"Paying attention to" is a whole lot different than being submissive, obedient, subordinate. etc. And in Laws Of Manu (which pervaded the thought prior to Guru Nanak's Time) it actually says women are to worship their husband as a God, and in her childhood she is "subject" to her Father, in youth she is "subject" to her husband and after her husband dies she is "subject" to her sons. It further says that women are to never have independence and be obedient at all times (it even says if her husband is a drunk and deviant she is to always be obedient). This effectively put her in position as a slave. So to use this as a 'command' to women in times when that was already the thinking, makes no sense if the meaning was simply to pay attention to him (and I have shown the actual context anyway of that shabad was entirely the opposite, it doesnt actually say to view husband as God. It says view God as your husband - Husband Lord / Soul Bride) but anyway the lawsof Manu. are a far cry from how you are depicting a happy wife who pays attention to her husband who also pays attention to her. Authority wise, husband and wife are equal. There is no heirarchy. One doesn't get to order the other around. Rather decisions should be made together as a team. Nobody has veto power... or else both will want to have that position and both will fight over it. And to answer your question, yes the subordinates I have right now, may surpass me! In fact there are some who were in the rank below me and are now at the same rank as me, so in military model, EVERYONE has the opportunity to excel and advance. And it comes down to how well you apply yourself, and how hard you work for it. Nobody is forever locked into a position. Strife comes only when you try to forever lock someone in a subordinate position for their whole life simply based on what body they happened to be born in. It's unjust. Everyone deserves at least the CHANCE to advance to leadership. If someone does not posses leadership qualities then fine, at least they were given the chance, or if someone prefers to be a follower. But there are many Sikh women who could be great leaders in the religion, and feel suffocated being locked in a subordinate position simply because of their biology. Luckily here I am encouraged... and currently serve on the management committee. Anyway we are not referring to society in general but specifically in Sikhi so lets stay within what Gurbani says, and not society in general. All of the restrictions placed on women by certain jathas, do not require a specific gender to perform. Some of these jathas bar women from participating in akhand paaths (you don't require male gender to recite from SGGSJ), chaur sahib seva (again specific gender is not required), palki seva (again, no specific gender is required), kirtan, and so on. Yes, even Panj Pyares. There have been women who have done it (AKJ, 3HO), so obviously it CAN be done by women. And to hold all women responsible and punish them for the inaction of a few on one certain day is unjust, so that reasoning doesn't hold. Same as the argument that Khalsa was originally to create warriors so women shouldn't be given Amrit.... well, if a woman choses that path instead of popping out babies (not fitting the mould as you said, and going her own direction) then she should be allowed to follow that path she feels drawn to, and not restricted. There would still be more than enough women who actually want kids and would not like to fight etc. to build society. You don't need to force women into that role. (Just like if a man wants to be the one to stay home with a child while the wife has the career thats ok too because they CHOOSE that way, and I know families who do this!) Why do I feel this is important? Because let's say the Khalistanis win someday in the future and a part of India becomes Khalistan... then what version of Sikhism will be installed in this new religious state? Will it be the version where women are not allowed to do anything except langar? Or will it be the version following Sikh Rehet Maryada that assures women can fully participate? Will there be religious 'police' roaming around with sticks to beat any Singhnis who dare to try to do palki sahib seva, or recite Gurbani in Sangat, or do kirtan? (Believe it or not, they are close to it now at Darbar Sahib, where a Singhni friend of mine (Amritdhari, with a dastar) tried to go for Palki Sahib Seva and a Singh went to her husband, would not even acknowledge her... and told her husband to 'control his Singhni' - so they are not far off from that mindset now!) I was told by a Damdami Taksal Singh that women are 'unclean' and should never touch Gurbani... and because the men can never know if it's "that" time or not, women should be barred from touching Gurbani ALL the time (you know, just to be sure no woman ever denigrates Gurbani). <-- this is what he actually told me! He also said because kirtan takes place so close to SGGSJ, women should also not be allowed to do that. (because our "uncleanliness" could somehow drift towards SGGSJ and tarnish it). Another point to consider is that we tend to respect those that fully participate more. We revere and respect those who who take on the leadership roles, who lead by example, and become a voice for Sikhi. Because women have been repressed from fully participating in Sikhi throughtout history, the majority of the highly respected 'sants' 'scholars' etc are male. If women were encouraged to take on these roles as well from childhood and not pushed to the back seat, we would see more women 'sants' and 'scholars' etc. But women have not been encourgaed to take leadership or influential roles. Instead they were always pushed to the langar kitchen to cook and clean up messes (quiet, submissive, subservient). This is HUGELY important because many young SIkh girls are straying from Sikhi, or marrying guys from other religions! And the Singhs wonder why?? Have you noticed a surge in recent years of young SInghnis tying dastars and asserting themselves as just as capable and dominent as their brothers? By tying a dastar they are claiming that equal position alongside the Singhs. They don't want to remian silent and subservient any longer. They also want to espouse the warrior spirit... Those who don't, cut their hair, wear makeup, wear saris, and prerty much devolved back into Hinduism (some Sikh women here even participate in some of the Hindu rituals like the moon one). And of those, many call themselves Sikh but rarely come to the Gurdwara, have western boyfriends, and for all intents and purposes leave Sikhi. If you don't start to consider your sisters as equals, then they actually have the power that within a few generations, SIkhi would no longer exist! Open your eyes its already happening!

They are equal.. they can work their way to the same rank I am in. That's the difference.... advancement is open to them. However no matter how much I'd like to advance to be able to say for example be Panj Pyare etc in at least several jathas, I would never be able to... no matter how hard I worked at it.

If a woman felt the inner calling to defend the community instead of having babies, she should have been allowed to follow that calling. By the way....You do know that I have spent the last 18.5 years in a career in the military?? And I am awesome at what I do and I have subordinates! Similarly for all seva. There are no restrictions on Singhs so why is there for Singhnis? If a Singh wants to not do seva, its his choice, if he wants to cook in langar kitchen he can, but if a woman wants to do certain seva she is stopped.

I have throughout my life had many out of body experiences... so yes I have experienced beyond the physical... from the age of 8. I have also encountered others... I know of several distinct 'realms' or levels... above the physical. Etheric, which is part of the physical and extends past it, but dies with it like a shell of sorts. If you travel to this realm you experience the physical world in real time, but obviously not with your physical body. Them astral level which is much more dream like and mystical in quality. I can only describe it as 'seeing sound and hearing colour' if that makes sense. Everything is frequency so you interpret it differently than in the physical. These experiences were what launched me on the path that ultimately ended up here.

Actually I was referring specifically to the restrictions I mentioned in the original post... limitations on seva for various reasons, women being told to view their husband as God, suggestions that women were never meant to even take Amrit (or only a lesser Amrit, or that they were only worthy of charan amrit etc. )

In this post I am....

We are speaking in terms of Sikhi specifically.... what advantages do I have as a woman over men in Sikhi??? What things can I do in Sikhi specifically that men are not allowed?

Regarding lakes... obviously all water is clear... but the colours are filtered differently, and yes the sky is the influence. You know, there is a lake in Ladakh region of Kashmir it's a high altitude lake on the border of China and India called Pangong. Its in an area that you have to have special permission to visit. I was lucky to have gotten to see it in Sept just past. You won't believe me if I told you the colour... so I will just post a pic Yes... it's really this colour in person!

Thats all well and good but if the system restricts some and not others... then how do those being restricted surpass it? And it wasnt only the equality... it was the philosophy of ONEness, reality itself that drew me in (but equality was icing on the cake) I could never be athiest because I believe (know) God. Athiest do not believe in God (or any existence beyond this one) but I just find that at every turn I am being told 'No' because I am female and makes it so difficult that I am seen in this light by others on the same path. It makes me feel so restricted and not respected as an equal in God's eyes. Otherwise why am I told I cant do something simply because I am a girl? Especially when the things I am being told I can not do (or should not do because they were never meant for us mere women like take amrit), how can one use this system to surpass it? There is no choice in that system except to leave that system. That's the only way to surpass it. (Perhaps this is why so many Sikh girls no days are leaving Sikhi and marrying non-Sikhs??) Yes I believe in total equality... because soul is equal. Duality is fine male/female but both should have equal opportunity. The choice to restrict women is actually in the hands of men... not God. Men can choose to uplift women and see them as equal, or they can denigrate them and treat them as subordinate and not 'allow' them to have equal opportunity. And reference your example, a person born in a criminal family still has the chance to surpass that criminal lifestyle and is not restricted from doing that. A person born into any other disadvantaged position can strive to overcome that disadvantage, but women have been told a firm 'no' with absolutely no chance to ever surpass that position. So it feels absolutely hopeless... Do I think in the grand scheme of things that it matters on my own personal spiritual level? No not really.. I don't have to go to a Gurdwara that choses to put me in a subordinate position. I don't have to associate with sangat who think I am lower than them. I can embark on spirituality alone by myself. And I have actually had very vivid spiritual experiences in my life that have given me full understanding of the ONEness of reality. I have already experienced what so many strive for by depriving themselves of things, or following restrictive rules to the point they are barely living... and I experienced them without even trying! They were just a gift direct from Waheguru Ji .... And this without sangat at all... But yet we are told that we should associate with sat sangat... Of course I know that not all Sikhs think like this or even interpret things in this way. Many many follow SRM and SRM states total equality. But as I said the choice to view women as equals or lesser beings is actually in the hands of the men who choose to think that way, rather than in the hands of God. as luck has it, locally my gurdwara follows SRM and I have been uplifted... I am even on the current management committee. But to know that so many SInghs on here or in the world, view me as linferior and think I should just shut up be quiet and do what I am told, be obedient to the men, view them as superior and like God over me... that really hurts and I don't know what to do right now.

I realize this is a controversial topic and many on both sides are passionate about their beliefs. But, I am asking this straight out as its own topic because 1) In general Sikhi is touted as an egalitarian and includive religion where everyone are treated equally and this includes gender. 2) There seems to be mized mindset on the place of women in Sikhism in history, and therefore where they should stand today. Please keep it civilized. I am really interested in the answer because after reading so many negative comments directed at Singhnis on here, the worst of which was that women should view their husband as God (which directly puts women in their place in that one statement doesn't it?), that women should not be able to have the same rights and freedoms in Sikhism that men do, that there should be restrictions placed on Singhnis as to what they are 'allowed' to do regarding religious duties (some reasons given based on certain biological functions, others just because they are women), that women should be at home and not work and under the dominion of their husband and be obedient, that women should be punished for all time for what a few women did or did not do on one specific day (are there any other precedents in Sikhi where we hold people accountable for what their ancestors did or did not do on a specific day or event? This sounds very much like casteism, only it's genderism... where in casteism, someone is held accountable by birth, for simply being born in the same family as their parents who were seen as lowly for their simply being born in a certain family etc.) Also the crux of these, that women were never meant to fully participate in Sikhi at all! (suggestions that women should not receive amrit, or a lesser amrit) I have become so disheartened with Sikhism because of all these comments. I am now soul searching if this is truly the correct path. On the one hand, I was drawn to Sikhi for its message of equality of all humans... but as a female am I somehow 'less' than human?? Was I given the wrong impression of SIkhism? Am I supposed to consider myself as less than a male or less worthy? If so, does Sikhism consider it a punishment that I was born a female, to be placed for life in a lower position than Sikh men? If it is some sort of punishment, what did I do wrong to be born this way? Seeing these comments almost makes me feel revulsion of my gender. And some days lately makes me feel like I wish I could just peel off this physical shell, like it's a symbol I have to wear of some wrong deed I had done, and have to carry forever as mark to embarass me and feel humiliated for simply being a woman. This is how remarks like the above make many women feel... so don't discount what you are syaing. We have feelings, and we want to be accepted as equals. So the question is: What do YOU personally feel is the place of women in Sikhi? Do you believe Sings and Kaurs should be treated equally? (note: treatedequally doesn't have to mean that they are physically the same, just that they should receive equal opportunity with regards to religious duties, and in society in general)? Or do you believe that there should be a heirarchy where males in charge and women follow (Patriarchy model where men are in charge of women, and women obey and have restrictions placed upon them by the men)? Please answer honestly and include support for your answer with Gurbani. I am not interested in answers that simply state "Because so and so said so, and they are a scholar so it must be true" Scholars can also be mysoginistic / chauvenistic and it's too convenient to insert their personal belief or wishes into what they pass on to others. I am interested in your own reasons, and with direct support from our only Guru, Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. This is the only authority we were directly given after Guru Gobind Singh Ji left his physical body. All else were man made and subject to their own interpretation and feelings. My Own Belief: My own belief as many of you know, is that of true equality. All humans are equal. The physical shell is illusion and transitory just like the physical world itself. There is only ONE soul within all of us, and this divine light is equal in everyone. In matters of spirituality, gender does not matter as this divine light, our soul, is genderless. So therefore, nobody should be restricted from performing any religious duty based on their biology, which only matters for procreation. If a woman choses to never have a child for example, her biology really doesn't matter (and we have examples like Mai Bhago to prove that determination and courage far outweigh physical limitations caused by Estrogen. In fact, properly trained females are far more agile than men, which makes up for brute strength anyway. In tae kwan do when I took it, I learned moves to take down the biggest of men by using their own size against them.) Evidence from Gurbani: God is equally within all: Page 93, Line 18 ਰਵਿਦਾਸ ਸਮ ਦਲ ਸਮਝਾਵੈ ਕੋਊ ॥੩॥ Raviḏās sam ḏal samjẖāvai ko▫ū. ||3|| O Ravi Daas, one who understands that the Lord is equally in all, is very rare. ||3|| Page 1061, Line 19 ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਪਉਣੁ ਵਹੈ ਇਕ ਰੰਗੀ ਮਿਲਿ ਪਵਣੈ ਸਭ ਵਜਾਇਦਾ ॥੪॥ Gẖat gẖat pa▫uṇ vahai ik rangī mil pavṇai sabẖ vajā▫iḏā. ||4|| The breath flows equally through the hearts of each and every being. Receiving the breath, all the instruments sing. ||4|| Page 223, Line 4 ਨਾਰੀ ਪੁਰਖ ਸਬਾਈ ਲੋਇ ॥੩॥ Nārī purakẖ sabā▫ī lo▫e. ||3|| Among all the women and the men, His Light is shining. ||3|| Evidence that Gurus viewed everyone equally: ਮੇਰਾ ਗੁਰੁ ਦਇਆਲੁ ਸਦਾ ਰੰਗਿ ਲੀਣਾ ॥ Merā gur ḏa▫i▫āl saḏā rang līṇā. My Merciful Guru remains forever imbued with the Lord's Love. ਅਹਿਨਿਸਿ ਰਹੈ ਏਕ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਗੀ ਸਾਚੇ ਦੇਖਿ ਪਤੀਣਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ Ahinis rahai ek liv lāgī sācẖe ḏekẖ paṯīṇā. ||1|| rahā▫o. Day and night, He remains lovingly focused on the One Lord; gazing upon the True Lord, He is pleased. ||1||Pause|| ਰਹੈ ਗਗਨ ਪੁਰਿ ਦ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਸਮੈਸਰਿ ਅਨਹਤ ਸਬਦਿ ਰੰਗੀਣਾ ॥੨॥ Rahai gagan pur ḏarisat samaisar anhaṯ sabaḏ rangīṇā. ||2|| He abides in the Tenth Gate, and looks equally upon all; He is imbued with the unstruck sound current of the Shabad. ||2|| Evidence contrary to the statement that women should view men as God: The meaning of this shabad taken in context actually uplifts women, and tells them that their identity is not linked to their physical husbands. That they should not kill themselves at the death of their physical husband... That they should take God as their Husband instead, live through the grief and they will be the true 'satee'. So this shabad was meant to uplift women from thinking their worth was directly linked to their husband and gives them their own individual identity and reason to live. One line was twisted in this shabad to state the opposite. To tell women that they were to view their husband as God, goes against the message in the shabad, by reinforcing this view that women's worth was direclty linked to their physical husband. ਜਲੈ ਨ ਪਾਈਐ ਰਾਮ ਸਨੇਹੀ ॥ Jalai na pā▫ī▫ai rām sanehī. By burning oneself, the Beloved Lord is not obtained. ਕਿਰਤਿ ਸੰਜੋਗਿ ਸਤੀ ਉਠਿ ਹੋਈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ Kiraṯ sanjog saṯī uṯẖ ho▫ī. ||1|| rahā▫o. Only by the actions of destiny does she rise up and burn herself, as a 'satee'. ||1||Pause|| ਦੇਖਾ ਦੇਖੀ ਮਨਹਠਿ ਜਲਿ ਜਾਈਐ ॥ Ḏekẖā ḏekẖī manhaṯẖ jal jā▫ī▫ai. Imitating what she sees, with her stubborn mind-set, she goes into the fire. ਪ੍ਰਿਅ ਸੰਗੁ ਨ ਪਾਵੈ ਬਹੁ ਜੋਨਿ ਭਵਾਈਐ ॥੨॥ Pari▫a sang na pāvai baho jon bẖavā▫ī▫ai. ||2|| She does not obtain the Company of her Beloved Lord, and she wanders through countless incarnations. ||2|| ਸੀਲ ਸੰਜਮਿ ਪ੍ਰਿਅ ਆਗਿਆ ਮਾਨੈ ॥ Sīl sanjam pari▫a āgi▫ā mānai. With pure conduct and self-restraint, she surrenders to her Husband Lord's Will; ਤਿਸੁ ਨਾਰੀ ਕਉ ਦੁਖੁ ਨ ਜਮਾਨੈ ॥੩॥ Ŧis nārī ka▫o ḏukẖ na jamānai. ||3|| that woman shall not suffer pain at the hands of the Messenger of Death. ||3|| ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਜਿਨਿ ਪ੍ਰਿਉ ਪਰਮੇਸਰੁ ਕਰਿ ਜਾਨਿਆ ॥ Kaho Nānak jin pari▫o parmesar kar jāni▫ā. Says Nanak, she who looks upon the Transcendent Lord as her Husband, ਧੰਨੁ ਸਤੀ ਦਰਗਹ ਪਰਵਾਨਿਆ ॥੪॥੩੦॥੯੯॥ Ḏẖan saṯī ḏargėh parvāni▫ā. ||4||30||99|| is the blessed 'satee'; she is received with honor in the Court of the Lord. ||4||30||99|| Further, the idea for women to prostrate their husband or view their husband as God comes from Laws of Manu, and almost word for word too, therefore it's easy to see that this has crept into the mindsets of some Sikhs: “A husband should be worshiped as a God.” “In childhood a female must be subject to her father, in youth to her husband, and when her lord is dead, to her sons; a woman must never be independent.”

Who? Show me proof... and show me where THEY got that meaning... because taken from Gurbani alone, you can't get that meaning AT ALL! So that must be their own wishes perhaps? So answer this one question... taking YOUR interpretation of that one tuk, is being born as a woman vs a man a punishment then? Also, take 3HO as an exmaple... YB taught that yoga is part of Sikhi. Now, everyone in 3HO teaches others that yoga is part of SIkhi, and they teach yet more people the same. Now was Yogi Bhajan right? He is viewed as a scholar and revered by 3HO. You can't say that every Sant or Baba is correct because they actually contradict each other in various things. So who can say who is correct? We have to go back to actual Gurbani ourselves. SGGSJ is our ONLY Guru and guide... as soon as you listen only to someone else's interpretation, you are actually viewing them as higher than SGGSJ because you are relying on THEIR human interpretation! It's fine if you just want to follow one sect and parrot back what you are told and never try to understand anything for yourself. But for me all my life I have had an insatiable appetite to actually UNDERSTAND the underlying truth to the Universe. And I will NEVER view a man as being above me. We are both humans here for the same reason. Human life is rare we are told, so it makes no sense that some would be punished to be born as women (in a lowly position) while men are put in a high position. Human is human. We are all here for the same reason. And my Singh would probably have a hissy fit at me if I tried to put myself beneath him and subordinated myself as if he were God. We are equals. Oh and the equal partnership of husband and wife is actually echoed in Gurbani too... One Soul in two bodies. That is not a master / slave or God / worshipper relationship. To put either partner at a disadvantage breaks that One soul equally in two bodies relationship. I will never cave to the male superiority complex.

Funny coming from you when you put wrong meaning to one single tuk in Gurbani to justify wives viewing their husbands as God, when the full context was saying the opposite and instead referring to husband Lord and the actual context was to uplift women position and not to subordinate them. Instead you took a single tuk, and twisted the actual meaning to put women in a subordinate and lowly position to men. (and fought it tooth and nail on here). And yes I believe the Gurus were God. But my perception of reality is that ALL is ONE. Because of some actual experiences, this is now my understanding and not just belief. And since everything is ONE, of course the Gurus were God. But so are everyone, and so is everything. I also showed you the proof of this in Gurbani, and these are not 'my' interpretations. However Gurbani was not written in some code that we can not understand. It was meant to be read by every Sikh and contemplated. It was not meant to be like other religions where only the Priests etc can interpret and confir upon the masses the meaning. It was meant so that everyone could read it. Simply by reading the shabads and seeing the context, you will get the meaning.

okay thank you! I knew you couldn't have meant what you said... and the reason we are not pure is that we have forgotten our source... this Maya is so enticing that we have become so enammored by it (and our Ego identity) that is why we have forgotten who we are, and why we have lost our way and become trapped by the five evils.

You didnt read what I was saying.... said that Guru = God and also EVERYTHING and EVRYONE = God. Because Gurbani says over and over that there is ONLY God in existence. There is NO other! N30 and posted a beautiful shabad on ang 736 that outright says ALL of us are really God! So I am not saying Gurus werent God. I am saying that they, and us, and everything are! You guys seem to have this serious Abrahamic view of creation... where you think creation and creator are separate things. But they arent! There is only the ONE!

So you believe the Abrahamic model then... that Creation is not God. That Creation was made by God but is something separate from God. You should become Christian....

So using that same reasoning no man should be allowed to put pataasseh in the baata? But wait... its ALWAYS men too! You guys just can not see past gender. Our souls are genderless (actually referred to all of us have female souls and Waheguru is the only male hence soul bride). Their gender did not matter. It wasn't a penis that volunteered. Their gender had nothing to do with them volunteering. It was five Sikhs, five souls who volunteered. All else is part of this illusion we call Maya. Just because you have a penis does not give you any more right than I have to do this seva. It wasn't YOU who volunteered your head that day either. Do you really think the Gurus were all about punishing someone for what they happen to have between their legs?? I really feel sorry for those of you who can not see past the physical... can not see past Maya. All you see when you look at someone is a penis or vagina... and if they have a penis then great they can do anything... if they have a vagina, then you give a big full stop and say they cant do this or cant do that. If it was all about imitating the original five exactly then why can any caste now be Panj Pyares? Should it not be restricted to only the five representative in the original? How about their surnames? How about if they were vegetarian? Where do we draw the line? Why is it only gender that sticks as a reason to restrict, to discriminate? This is why I would never follow DDT or any jatha who views women in this light... thinking that ALL women for all time should be punished because none happened to be in the first five. It's a scorning / punishment that they will carry on for all time against women??? I dont know why any women would follow DDT being put into this lowly position and seen this way. It's like you all want to scorn women for all time for what a few present in that one day did or didnt do. What makes you think YOU are any more worthy of being Panj Pyares? Simply because you have a penis??? hahaha I really pray to Waheguru Ji that someday you will see past this illusion and see reality for what it is... nonphysical, where gender does not matter at all. In fact it doesnt really even matter now expect for one thing... procreation. Outside of that we are all essentially the same. We breathe the same air, have the same hopes and desires, we all have 2 arms and 2 legs, 2 eyes, a nose etc.

Well then, I guess for you Gurbani has no practical use... Gurbani is there for US to READ OURSELVES and contemplate. Not just listen to others. YOUR journey is about YOU and not Brahamgyanis who came before you. Take two students... teach student one to only memorize something and sure they can pass the test in school by parroting back the answers. But in real life when they need to apply those skills, they will fall flat on their face as they did not UNDERSTAND what they memorized. Take the second student and actually have them apply that skill so that they UNDERSTAND what they are reading. That second student will succeed in life. Same with Gurbani, you can parrot back and memorize what someone else told you was the meaning. But until you read it for yourself and truly contemplate the deeper spiritual meaning within it, you will never truly UNDERSTAND the meaning. Gurbani is meant to be read and contemplated by each and every one of us!

"Have you ever had a dream, Neo, that you were so sure was real? What if you were unable to wake from that dream? How would you know the difference between the dream world and the real world?" ... Because this world is so convincing, and the ego identity so strong that we have become so immersed within this character we are playing. It's not just the illusion of the world around us.., it's the illusion of our own identity. It's hard to let go of the 'I' that we think we are. We are programmed to think that if the 'I' ceases to exist... That's it we die and there's nothing left. But it's not the 'I' that Is Experiencing... The doer the experiencer exists independent of the 'I' that we think is our identity. But out of fear, we just can't seem to let go of the 'I'