Peter_Pan

hello all,

I'd really appreciate if i could get some help in identifying some old handwritten scriptures,
these were handed down to me from my grandmother,
i had been an atheist all my life, but now I'm starting to accept god or some higher power and I've been studying various religions, including Sikhism.
and then these old scriptures came to my mind, these seem to be handwritten in Gurumukhi script, though i cant read or understand them, i'd really appreciate if anyone on this forum would help me in understanding what these books really are, their significance, historical & religious value
Thank you in advance
Peter//

Sorry for the late reply,

I'll post more pics pretty soon.

if you remember i posted sometime ago about a few old gurmukhi scriptures: 
now again Ive got my hands on a few old scriptures, these are different than the ones before, ill post a few pictures here again, and any help in translating/deciphering these would be greatly appreciated!
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

if you remember i posted sometime ago about a few old gurmukhi scriptures: 
now again Ive got my hands on a few old scriptures, these are different than the ones before, ill post a few pictures here again, and any help in translating/deciphering these would be greatly appreciated!
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

if you remember i posted sometime ago about a few old gurmukhi scriptures: 
now again Ive got my hands on a few old scriptures, these are different than the ones before, ill post a few pictures here again, and any help in translating/deciphering these would be greatly appreciated!
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

Awesome Video- The Matrix Analogy Of Sikhi by Bhai Jagraj Singh

So why don't you try and offer a translation then?

Addition: I just checked the original text again - from what I can see there is no way that isn't
ਭਉ



How do you make it bhav????

I've attached the page and underlined the word, incase you're looking at something else?

Thank you sir for the reply and the insight,
I'll try scanning more pages if I can or take pictures, as you can see the second one is in very poor shape and the pages very delicate and brittle.

All I can tell is that these along with some other family heirlooms were passed down to my grandmother from her family,
she used to say that these were giving as a gift to her ancestors from the founding members of some "misls".
she was very protective of these and also asked me not to give these to anyone whatsoever,
Her family were of landowners in peshawar before the partion of india, her grandfather was in british army and her father was a physics professor at fc college, Lahore.
After the partition they moved to Amritsar, India and then after sometime to South-Africa.

Another attempt at the first sentence, I think I figured out the words in the beginning bit:

ਸੋ ਅਸਾ ਸੋ ਸੋਹੰ ਭਇਓ ਸੋਹੰ ਓਅੰਕਾਰ ਓਅੰ ਸੋਰਾਰਾ ਭਉ ਸਾਧੋ ਕਰੋ ਬਿਚਾਰਾ।
That is me, he is I that happened, that which is I is Oankar , Oansorara, the sadhus deliberate on fearing [that one].


Peter Pan: You've got a fascinating manuscript here. It's obviously a Sikh poets devotional work and the vocab shows intimate knowledge of Sikh scriptures. For instance this bit here:


Strongly resembles Jaap Sahib from the Dasam Granth. PS - That second doc looks like a Janam Sakhi and the first sakhi is one concerning Kalu Mehta's efforts to have his son (the young Baba Nanak) educated.

Here are profound questions / riddles / self enquiry asked by Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji to his Sikhs:

These questions below are meant to be explored, inquired, contemplated in Meditation..they may look very simple to our egoic mindset but it cannot be conceptually answered by conceptual mind but deeply inquired within during meditation- answer you will quickly get verbally like in form of thought or scholarly knowledge by conceptual mind/thoughts needs to be abandoned as mind will try to trick you by providing its own pre conditioned/ pre conceived notion/ conditioned response (it may be right answer but this isn't point..this is not mind exercise, point is answer needs to be felt by intuition out of our egoic conditioned mindset ). Any answer you will receive in meditation via spiritual divine insight is right way to start and from there you will notice growth in your bibek- clear understanding, pure perception which helps significantly in spiritual growth, deep spiritual inquiry and transcendence. In fact so much so if its meant to be this spiritual riddles (especially- What is form of atma) asked by Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji can provide great spiritual awakening, slowing dawning of grace- Know Thy Self - Apana Mul Pachan ||


source: http://www.sridasam.org/dasam?Action=Page&p=76&english=t&id=65956

Questions- (1) What is the form of 'Atma' (True self)? (2) What is the thought behind creation? (3) What is 'Dharma'? (4) What is 'Karma'? (5) What is creation? (6) What is life? (7) What is Death? (8) What is heaven? (9) What is hell? (10) What is cleverness? (11) What is stupidity? (12) What is 'Tark' (Reasoning)? (13) What is not 'Tark'? (14) What is slander? (15) What is praise? (17) What is Sin? (18) What is 'Dharma'? Some of the questions are asked twice by the Guru. Here, the Guru desires a different answer to previous answer. Each question and its answers are inter-linked to each other to produce a whole picture of Sat Guru, meaning the ideology and philosophy of Sat Guru which should appear at the end of answering all the questions. (19) What is Yoga? (20) What is enjoyment of worldly pleasures? (21) What is action? (22) What is inaction? (23) What is hard work ? (24) What is controlling the senses? (25) Who is a warrior? (26) Who is giver of charity? (27) What is 'Tantra'? (28) What is 'Mantra'? (29) Who is poor? (30) Who is a King? (31) What is happiness? (32) What is Sadness? (33) Who is ill? (35) Who is affectionate? (36) What is essence of affection? (37) Who is satiated? (38) Who is healthy? (39) What is thought behind creation? (40) What is creation? (41) Who is defiled? (42) What is creation? (43) Where is action superstition? (45) Where is superstition destroyed? (46) Where is happiness of consciousness? (47) Where is knowledge of that which we can not grasp with our minds? (48) What is Naam? (50) What is self control? (51) What is knowledge and ignorance? (52) Who is ill? (53) Who is a worrier? (54) Where is Dharma lost? (55) Who is a warrior? (56) Who is beautiful? (57) What is secret of being at one with Sat Guru? (58) Who is the charitable one? (59) Who is wise? (60) What is knowledge? (61) What is ignorance?

I think a lot of Sikhs like to shake off responsibility and effort by believing that Guru ji will come to sort all the mess around us out, instead of actively trying to do anything serious themselves.

It's like a comfortable crutch and a perfect excuse to fail to act ourselves.

Even a simpleton should be able to see that Guru ji did everything (to the point of sacrificing their own family) to educate, uplift and empower Sikhs to look after themselves - not only physically/militarily but spiritually and socially.

I did a major clanger here:

ਭਉ is fear, not love!

I edited the previous post to reflect.

Interesting fragment from 10004:

The first sentence is a fragment, couldn't make the start out: Here's a quick bash at translation -

ਓਅੰਕਾਰ ਓਅੰਸੋਰਾਰਾ ਭਉ ਸਾਧੋ ਕਰੋ ਬਿਚਾਰਾ। The saints deliberate on fearing Oankar Oansorara(?) Now it starts rhyming: ਸਾਧੋ ਕਰੋ ਬਿਚਾਰਉ ਲਿਟ ਘਰ ਅਪਨੇ ਆਵੋ। The saints preach that we should come home and lie down ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਅਨੂਪ ਸਮਟ ਕਰਤ ਹਸ਼ਮਵੋ। Brahm gathers rare laughter within hearts ਚਾਰ ਬੇਦ ਕਾ ਭੇਦੁ ਹੈ ਗੀਤਾ ਕਾ ਹੈ ਜੀਓ। Is the mystery of the four vedas; the understanding of the gita ਨਾਨਕ ਦਾਸ ਲਖੈ ਆਪ ਕਉ ਤੌ ਮੈ ਤੇਰਾ ਪੀਉ। The slave of Nanak knows to himself; that's why I am your beloved ਸਭ ਜੋਗਨ ਮੈ ਜੌਗ ਸਭ ਗਿਆਨਨ ਕੋ ਗਿਆਨ। The yogi of all yogas, the knower of all knowledge ਸਭ ਸਿਧਨ ਕੋ ਸਿਧ ਹੈ ਤਤ ਸੋਰਨ ਕੋ ਧਿਆਨ। The Siddh of all Siddhs, ???? ਬ੍ਰਹਮਗਿਆਨ ਕੋ ਜਪ(?)


Interesting speculation: at the mo (to me), it appears to be some devotional work that isn't Gurbani. It's obviously heavily influenced by Sikh religious poetry. It seems to be some poets devotional composition.

Could these be somehow related to the King Ranjit singh, as someone mentioned here a name "kishan singh" and
Bishan Singh & Kishan singh were famous artists in the court of Ranjit singh, and I think it would fit well in the mentioned time frame of samat 1879,
but these are just speculations without proper proof !

The words ਨਾਨਕ ਦਾਸ ਰਣਜੀਤ (the slave of Nanak, Ranjeet) occur a couple of times at least, which might be a clue to the author?

Bhagat, I tried some searches too, you're right: whatever the text is, it doesn't appear to be from SGGS ji?

http://www.sikhawareness.com/uploads/monthly_02_2015/post-10552-0-42647600-1423234747.jpg

I wonder if it says something else after Nanak, since there is concatenation [...nanakdasranjit...] taking place "Nanak dasran jit" - but it's more likely ranjit, I wonder if ranjit here is a name, instrument, or the meaning behind it of victor of the battlefield.

nanakdasranjitabi ?charo | eiochrkrbhan Is the yellow ink medieval tipex(correctional fluid) or damage that has been caused accidentally, from some reaction (ink, paper, time) or possibly intentional damage.

I am talking about the first book. I tried doing some random searches of certain phrases and they don't show up in Guru Granth Sahib.
I am using - srigranth.org

PS I see "Nanak Das Ranjit" in Scan10029.jpg

This is what I could upload at the moment,

i'll soon post more !!

I tried to find that in Guru Granth Sahib. I couldn't... hmm.

http://imgur.com/E86R2ts
This one mentions "Nanak" several times in the body of the text, Baba Nanak a couple. Baba Nanak speaking to a pandha (pandit) (guesses could be Pandit Hardyal or Pandit Gopal). Could be wrong...

so with the usual tons of mistakes this is what I can see at the moment (taking out the concatenation requires a good vocabulary before hand as well and some of the words aren't in use in modern Punjabi).

2nd line onwards dhajee Nanak noprou | maitaegeebahuvsaevakarg| ta padhae kahiaa bhlajeetb padha epteelikhidi tee || ta Sri Guru Nanak ji eikadeenprad(?)jaedin chupkarirhae | tapadhaekahia Nanak ji radaki ounhee | ta Guru Nanak Ji kahiaa padh ji toopaji aahaijrmainoopraavdahae | ta padhae kahiaa jeemaes bhooakaechpariaah | smakharcholaekhapdeeaapree sabhoaemainoaavdahai || ta Sri Guru Baba Nanak ji kahi [then Sri Guru Baba Nanak ji said] aaeaenepreegaeifahaepoudaehainia || dharmraeidae thadhajadahaieaehuprnabadhai | ta Sri Guru Ji ou jobfeikasigiraagvichikahiaa || jalimohughasimsrkarimatikagafarisar bhaouklmkaguchivlaekhagigrrpachlikhrvee chag | likhrnmsal ? likhrlikhrantrnpacha

I notice it says the following: I'm going to try a translation. People chip in. I'm sure I've got things wrong! lol

ਤਾਹੀ ਕੋ ਮਨ ਆਨਾ। The mind goes to you ਤਾਹੀ ਕਉ ਮਨ ਅਲ ਰਾਤਿ ਦਿਨ ਸੁਰਤ ਲਗਾਵੈ। To you does the bee-mind attach its attention, night and day (I'm guessing the meaning of ਅਲ here) ਅਪਾ ਆਪ ਬਿਸਾਰ ਅੱਵਰ ਨਹੀ ਸੀਸ ਨਿਵਾਵਹੁ। You yourself make us forget, I bow my head to no other. Plus we have a date! ਸੰਮਤਾ Sumta (Indian calender) 1879. I have no idea what date that corresponds to in the modern system. Do you recall the name of the 'misl' your grandma may have mentioned?

I wonder if this is a part of a manuscript which has been lost in time entirely or never before seen manuscript, if so it would be worth trying to digitize as much as you can, before such a beauty is lost to time. Perhaps it maybe the key to answering an authenticity study on certain texts still in circulation.

Thank you sir for the reply and the insight,
I'll try scanning more pages if I can or take pictures, as you can see the second one is in very poor shape and the pages very delicate and brittle.

All I can tell is that these along with some other family heirlooms were passed down to my grandmother from her family,
she used to say that these were giving as a gift to her ancestors from the founding members of some "misls".
she was very protective of these and also asked me not to give these to anyone whatsoever,
Her family were of landowners in peshawar before the partion of india, her grandfather was in british army and her father was a physics professor at fc college, Lahore.
After the partition they moved to Amritsar, India and then after sometime to South-Africa.

Thank you sir for the reply and the insight,
I'll try scanning more pages if I can or take pictures, as you can see the second one is in very poor shape and the pages very delicate and brittle.

All I can tell is that these along with some other family heirlooms were passed down to my grandmother from her family,
she used to say that these were giving as a gift to her ancestors from the founding members of some "misls".
she was very protective of these and also asked me not to give these to anyone whatsoever,
Her family were of landowners in peshawar before the partion of india, her grandfather was in british army and her father was a physics professor at fc college, Lahore.
After the partition they moved to Amritsar, India and then after sometime to South-Africa.