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I was told sant hari singh ji randhawale are student of Sant Inderjit Singh Ji Rakhbe wale who were student of sant gyani 108 baba gurbachan singh ji bhindranwale? Can someone clarify more?

Not sure how is it in real life as i am busy skate boarding in real life (metaphor) ..hehe but on social media and online there seem very nasty divide between sikhs either they are part of reformist missionaries or puratan traditionalist. It's looks like there are layers within reformist missionaries and puratan traditionalist, as you have cult fan base/vehli janta cult base (sticking to an idea of it just because so so said so), on major outer layers of both school of thoughts and most of useless bickering, mud slinging goes on outer layer then there is inner layer. Inner layer can have good debates as we saw in recent sant hari singh ji randhawale 2nd set of videos- there was elderly missionaries sikh who was quite level headed and polite. Point of this thread to explore may be common ground between reformist missionaries and puratan traditionalist- What are key common ground both parties can agree on, besides political activism and Gurparsad- grace of one Vahiguru- i cannot think of any. Reformist missionaries may have small idea of gyan in sikhi but they translate gyan in sikhi into very dry conceptual, philosophy day to day intellectual knowledge than gyan spontaneously realized in meditation. More about modern day reformist and old traditional sikhi: Your thoughts?

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Khalsa ceremony itself is quite symbolic for surrender, amrit/grace-immortality, its ceremony of soul transmission/realization/transformation, unconditional love for Guru. However, one cannot do full surrender by with mein(ego), one has to be literally drawn as moth is drawn to flame and ultimately dies in flame just like one is drawn to vahiguru ultimately dies in fire of bhramgyan. Panj pyares were neddles, Sri Guru Gobind Singh ji was mass magnet radiating itself - analogy, they were drawn to it as intrinsic pull towards Guru via mysterious power (again of eternal sri guru gobind singh ji) so in that case- panj pyares were selected by Guru not the other way around. So ultimately panj pyares, khalsa amrit sanchar was expression of sri guru gobind singh ji himself -nirgun-sargun saroop I meant everything is in hakum as per gurbani as there is no such thing as free will- you can will what you want but you cannot will what you will.

Does op wishes to discuss this topic from historical sense or spiritual sense?

Ramana Maharshi described his enlightenment as: "From that moment onwards, the I or Self* focused attention on itself by a powerful fascination. Fear of death vanished once and for all. The ego was lost in the flood of Self-awareness. Absorption in the Self continued unbroken from that time. Other thought might come and go like the various notes of music, but the I continued like the fundamental sruti [that which is heard] note which underlies and blends with all other notes." Clarification on *self stateless state before I- sense of being leaps out prior state non experience state- The Truth is that Self is constant and unintermittent Awareness.

Your greatest aid is your sincerity and desire for Truth above all else. You may be shocked over and over again by the depth of illusion that you find and uncover within yourself, but never fixate on it or judge yourself. Accept, forgive, and move on, for your true being is infinite and absolute. It exists as much now as it ever did or ever will. Stand still in the sacred conflagration of inquiry and let it open you to the seat of all wisdom born of Spirit. Only Truth will survive; all else will perish. - Adyashanti Filled with the love of Truth, don’t be surprised if inquiry begins to consume all of your hidden assumptions, all of your beliefs, all of your opinions, all of your judgments, all that you have learned secondhand from others. And don’t be surprised if most of your spiritual ideas are consumed as well, for it is our spiritual ideas that most effectively protect us from the truly spiritual experience. -Adyashanti Real spirituality is about - Wake to the One so that our lives could be expression of ONE for the sake of ONE ~ Adyashanti "In true meditation the emphasis is on being awareness; not on being aware of objects, but on resting as primordial awareness itself. Primordial awareness is the source in which all objects arise and subside. As you gently relax into awareness, into listening, the mind’s compulsive contraction around objects will fade. Awareness naturally returns to its non-state of absolute unmanifest potential, the silent abyss beyond all knowing." ~ Adyashanti

“Enlightenment is a destructive process. It has nothing to do with becoming better or being happier. Enlightenment is the crumbling away of untruth. It's seeing through the facade of pretence. It's the complete eradication of everything we imagined to be true.” ~ Adyashanti In my experience, everyone will say they want to discover the Truth, right up until they realize that the Truth will rob them of their deepest held ideas, beliefs, hopes, and dreams. The freedom of enlightenment means much more than the experience of love and peace. It means discovering a Truth that will turn your view of self and life upside-down. For one who is truly ready, this will be unimaginably liberating. But for one who is still clinging in any way, this will be extremely challenging indeed. How does one know if they are ready? One is ready when they are willing to be absolutely consumed, when they are willing to be fuel for a fire without end. -Adyashanti

Enlightenment has nothing to do with states of consciousness. Whether you are in ego consciousness or unity consciousness is not really the point. I have met many people who have easy access to advanced states of consciousness. Though for some people this may come very easily, I also notice that many of these people are no freer than anyone else. If you don't believe that the ego can exist in very advanced states of consciousness, think again. The point isn't the state of consciousness, even very advanced ones, but an awake mystery that is the source of all states of consciousness. It is even the source of presence and beingness. It is beyond all perception and all experience. I call it "awakeness." To find out that you are empty of emptiness is to die into an aware mystery, which is the source of all existence. It just so happens that that mystery is in love with all of its manifestation and non-manifestation. You find your Self by stepping back out of yourself. - Adyashanti Truth Is Truth is only discovered in the moment. There is no truth that can be carried over to the next moment, the next day, the next year. Memory never contains truth, only what is past, dead, gone. Truth comes into the non-seeking mind fresh and alive. It is not something you can carry with you, accumulate, or hold onto. Truth leaps into view when the mind is quiet, not asserting itself. You cannot contain or domesticate truth, for if you do, it dies instantly. Truth prowls the unknown waiting for a gap in the mind’s activity. When that gap is there, the truth leaps out of the unknown into the known. Instantly you comprehend it and sense its sacredness. The timeless has broken through like a flash of lightning and illuminated the moment with its presence. Truth comes to an innocent mind as a blessing and a sacrament. Truth is a holy thing because it liberates thought from itself and illumines the human heart from the inside out.

Lets get punjabi gurmukhi orginal text pages on this just so its clear and to probe further if its mistranslation.

This may answer your question: source: Discourse on beyond II by Sant Waryam Singh Ji Ratwara sahib ~ Know your Real Self ~ First descended from Waheguru (God), a transparent ray, the conscious reality, which combing with nature took the epithet of living being. Round this ray, spread a mini globe- like substance, and the ray became resplendent. This state has been termed as the first separation (isolation) of atma(soul) from god(paratma) and has been called the sheath of bliss. After this, with the coming of thinking, one automatically moves into second circle of Maya (illusion). This is Miracle of Intellect. It was named the intellect of sheath. Descending lower still, there awakened the idea of making some achievement of producing something new. Affections and allurements brought this being under their control and pushed him into countless programmes, which are ever-expanding, so that the chain is never broken. The state of mind has been called the mental sheath. One was caught in the circle of resolution and repudiation. Beyond this stage, the cosmic energy pushed it still further down and called it the circle of power or the vital sheath. This power was born out of the relationships of the illusion. After this, it assumed some form and went on assuming different forms. As Guru Maharaj has ordained- For several births thou became a worm and a moth. In several birth thou wert an elephant, a fish and a deer. In several births thou became a birth and a snake. In several births thou were t yoked as a horse and a ox. SGGS JI- 176. This cirlce of different bodies is called "Annmayee Kosh". Kosh the sheath of food. In this way, this pure consciousness (drop) went on amassing around it tendencies towards illusions. It forgot its real nature and completely lost thought of the fact as to Who I am, and wherefrom I have come. Not recognizing oneself as the pure (divine) light, one started looking on oneself as just the body, which is made of five elements which is subject to all sorts of ills. The wise called this circle as sheath of food. It forsook it's real state of supreme happiness and considering oneself as the being of dust, it from the time immortal, has been going through the circle of births and deaths and has been experiencing untold miseries. He has been weeping and crying and lamenting. He does not realize how could he reunited with his original source(God), Who is all truth, all super consciousness and never ending bliss; and return to his original stage. So caught in miseries, he keeps on lamenting. The seers, the prophets, the saints and sages, philosophers, and those who have known the secrets of the Divine have told man many supernatural ways to the real true path. These prophets having coming out of the source of all purity appeared in the most holy forms. They by their saying gave to man the gospel of vedas and puranas, bible and holy writ all of which assumed their loftiest form in the shape of Siri Guru Granth Sahib. The fifth emperor of the world Guru Arjan Dev has commanded thus, to free his being from the circle of world of woe- Sing the praise of the lord, O friendly saints, with alertness and single mindedness. SGGS JI - 295 This is a very simple path, treading on which man, over coming countless obstacles one can merge into his real self, which is all light. To achieve this goal, concentration of mind is extremely necessary. So long as one does not know how to achieve concentration of mind, that long all his prayers and other efforts remain fruitless. There are some tendencies of mind, which do not allow one to achieve concentration of mind. Of these, the first tendency is named Mentality of Evidence. 1. Mentality of Evidence (Parman Birthi/Regarding the outward world as the Supreme reality)- Whatever is the spread that is visible, they may be children, wife, parents, one's own body the different relationships of the bodies, friends, enemies, things that brings joys or sorrows remaining engrossed in all these things is termed Mindset of evidence. To withdraw the mind from this world of sights and sounds seems extremely difficult. Till one gets the guidance of a perfect Guru, one cannot be liberated from this visible world. Guru Maharaj's sermon is- All that is seen, shall go not with thee, O Man. So abandon thou thy self-conceit and worldly attachment SGGS Ji- 1230 This being knows that he is not to stay in this world for all time, nor are sons and daughters, wife, parents eternal in the world, yet when one of them dies, he is over-whelmed with unbearable grief at their separation and can't rise above this slush. 2. The reverse mindset ( viparje birthi)- The second type of mentality is named the Reverse Mindset. In this stage, everything appears the opposite of what it is; things non-existent appear to have existed, and things existing seem non-existing. It is like the example of a traveling in summer through the desert, where man being tortured by thirst is desperately in need of water to quench his thirst. In the desert land, he has mirage that a river over-flowing with cold water is flowing at some distance from him. This deception seems to give to him some feeling to be a true fact. But when he reaches that place, he finds nothing there. It was just a mirage. Similarly, everyday he sees the world with his eyes and hears it with his ears and regards this outward world as full truth. Before our very eyes, this world is seen passing away. SGGS JI - 325 Still he regards the world as a true reality. On the other hand Waheguru Ji, who is omnipresent and is immanent everywhere- Wherever I see, there I see him present. He, my master, is never far from any place. O my soul, ever remember him, who is contained in everything. SGGS Ji- 677 In the earth, in the sky There pervades a light in all. It can't be added to, nothing can be subtracted from it. It permits no change (Akal Ustati, Siri Dasam Granth). According to this holy write, inside and outside, all is full of good. With his power, go on the entire operation of the world; with the power of his name, the world appears, man regards this all pervading spirit as untrue. There is not trace of doubt in such a person. He feels that the world around him is all truth and God, who is All-perfection, spread all-round in the Universe is untrue. This mentality is called opposite Mindset. Guru Maharaj makes reference to it- This world is the mountain of smoke. What thought has made thee deem it real? SGGS Ji- 1187. 3. The sleeping mentality (niranda birthi)- The third type of mentality is called sleeping mindset. Man knows all and reads all, still he keeps lost under the power of sleep. This stage of forgetting the Reality is called the sleeping mentality. 4. Alternative Mentality (vikalp birthi)- The four kind is named Alternative mentality. Man does small good acts such as giving charity, the recitation of the bani and holy singing, and with the aid of these small items, he has hope of great fruit. In other words, under the influence of this mentality, one feels the great effect of desires. Little service and alternative mentality does not allow the mind to achieve full concentration in the prayers to God. 5. Remembering Mentality (Simriti Birthi)- The fifth type is the Remembering Mentality. When a person begins prayer and obeisance to God, when he starts recitation of the gospel, and when he tries to unite his consciousness with God's name, he has memories of long-forgotten things. This memory mindset does not allow him to offer prayers whole heartedly; his reading of the holy texts won't bear fruit. Try to understand this fact by means of a parable. When Guru Nanak, the emperor of the world, while bathing in the Bein River plunged into water and came out after three days, he was repeating only one saying- I am Neither a Hindu, Nor a Muslim. My body and soul belong to Him, who is called God of Muslims and the lord of Hindus. SGGS Ji- 1136

Ok few key points here regarding this whole first question which seems like a central point of debate: 1. It's been unfortunate, good portion of debate between males was about gurbani interpertation impurity of women and women not allowing maharaj seva during her period , yet no feedback was taken from woman point of view and nor someone even bother- bought up point in the debate there are many enough innovative products out there in western countries which mitigate any blood leakage on outside body/skin or under garments. 2. Sant Hari Singh ji was more interested in upholding traditional view of not letting women doing seva while women is on menstrual cycle than even taking into consideration- wider aspects of gurmat such as subtlety of nirgun-sargun, reading whole shabad or even taken into consideration - even western female menstrual innovation products which are so advanced that even promises women using their products can even swim in the public swimming pool mitigating any hygienic issues .!!! You really think this products would be even allowed to make such a dire claim of women can use their products in swimming pool if all hygienic requirements are not met..there would be big uproar from environmentalist, health and safety groups in western countries 3. Gurbani is Gurbani, if woman during menstrual cycle can handle with truth ,care, devotion and love- gutka, pothi without any question of impure than why not with sri guru granth sahib ji? Pure intentions, sharda-devotion, love trumphs all...there are plenty of examples where love trumped all external situations, outlook and also hows that reconcile with ek jot advait - non dual principle sidhant of Gurmat. Why only sargun satkar of maharaj is been talked about while totally ignoring absolute principle- pervading Satguru which is in all of us? Talk should be together with sargun and nirgun aspect of satguru. This seem like short sighted discussion as its ignores absolute principle. Sant hari singh ji rigid rule or bent justification (without any exceptions/without any factors/contexualization) regarding not allowing woman do maharaj seva during her period can be easily debunked by sant singh maskeen viakhiya of full shabad as it was shown as guru maharaj is talking about traditions during that time, absolute principle-advait sidhant of gurmat and also love principle of seeker who is oblivious for external differences and drenched in love for maharaj do its darshan and seva. For me its quite simple, i take sri guru granth sahib ji as embodiment sargun saroop of all ten guru's if women comes to maharaj with love and devotion regardless of menstrual cycle or not- do seva of maharaj..maharaj would allow it because at that point maharaj dristhi kaun-perception towards seeker would have been different as it would be from higher reality perspective- higher avastha-state, seen from higher reality- unconditional love. Maharaj would look at intentions of individual-case by case basis -may allow or disallow seva based on individual case rather than precedence. This is key here, there is no such precedence in gurbani/gurmat which says- women cannot do seva of maharaj while in menstrual cycle, its been made into precedence by male patriarchy indic society/traditions. 4. As they say, men have it easy- there are plenty of male attributed beadhi issues (unnatural inflicted wounds cut on hand, band aids) with sri guru granth sahib ji, why focus on society perceived women as weak-women natural tendency of discharge of blood during menstrual cycle which is been totally addressed by western innovative products. 5. Sant hari singh ji was pretty defensive on questions understandably so as he is been under constant vicious attacks from missionaries. So he had to set the record or put a stop on this witch haunt from missionaries. In my opinion doing so it appears it has overshadow his pure cognitive intuitive perception- bibek/full depth review (all factors- unconditional love/devotion, sargun-nirgun satkar, western innovative products) into deeper issue of seeing the central question of women period and sri guru granth sahib seva. So his answer to his first question was quite out of depth. 6. Other answers were perfectly balanced and precise up to the point. 7. I like the moderator but he was bit too harsh on camera man and few innocent sikhs from both sides, who just raise the hand very first time got shot down. It was way too many people. One on one with moderator would have been better.

It will take sometime for our community's collective consciousness to rise above from pendu/tribalism and go back to its puratan gursikh standards. This is from soraj parkash granth:

Sikh kosh has been requested in the past, before to show basic respect to giani gurbachan singh khalsa bhindranwale if not address them as sant- atleast gyani gurbachan singh singh. Please comply with our request.

Here is sukhmani sahib on topic of doership: ਜਬ ਇਹ ਜਾਨੈ ਮੈ ਕਿਛੁ ਕਰਤਾ ॥जब इह जानै मै किछु करता ॥Jab ih jānai mai kicẖẖ karṯā.As long as this mortal thinks that he is the one who does things, ਤਬ ਲਗੁ ਗਰਭ ਜੋਨਿ ਮਹਿ ਫਿਰਤਾ ॥तब लगु गरभ जोनि महि फिरता ॥Ŧab lag garabẖ jon mėh firṯā.he shall wander in reincarnation through the womb. From absolute point of view, its only one Ikoankar expressing itself in its movement - creating, preserving and changing creation spontaneously effortlessly*. However, this jiv(seperate being) in ignorance think its me- I (egoic mindset) brings doership into play, as soon as there is doership- ਜਬ ਇਹ ਜਾਨੈ ਮੈ ਕਿਛੁ ਕਰਤਾ then there is karam, reincarnation etc etc as gurbani says ਤਬ ਲਗੁ ਗਰਭ ਜੋਨਿ ਮਹਿ ਫਿਰਤਾ ॥- he shall wander in reincarnation through the womb.. Seeker needs to be relaxed, give up doership as its not his/her at the first place- see through reality via pure perception- intuitive awareness (bibek)- gyan of Ikonkar satnaam, be receptive towards hakum always unfolding (kiv sachi-aaraa ho-ee-ai kiv koorhai tutai paal. hukam rajaa-ee chalnaa naanak likhi-aa naal. ||1|| ) rather than seeing things through conditioned mind. Hakum is always unfolding regardless but the point here is gyani ( be it parkosh or aporakash gyani) / bhramgyani sees the hakum unfolding with clear pure perception/clear lense whereas this ignorant jiv like us brings personal story (victim/egoic conditioned mindset) / separate I into this picture unable to see or feel, recognize pure hakum unfolding. Nevertheless, indeed everyone is under hakum whenever one is ready will automatically get drawn towards seeing higher reality and one will be able to see it through clean /clear lense. * Absolute truth effortlessly spontaneously always unfolding/ always expressing itself*

If maharaj does kirpa on this task,i be sharing in next couple of days some deep gnosis behind sukhmani sahib gurbani divine couplets. I tried to do this before but due to time limitations i couldn't do it before: ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਸਦਾ ਸਦ ਜਾਗਤ ॥ ब्रहम गिआनी सदा सद जागत ॥ Barahm gi▫ānī saḏā saḏ jāgaṯ. The God-conscious being is awake and aware, forever and ever Bhramgyani is forever awake/awareness, He/she may appear sleeping but they never sleep. What sleep is five senses but they are turiya pure awareness witness/light which supports all three states- jagrat, suuponan and sukhopat. Sant mani singh gives indication or ishara of bhramgyani state which is pure awareness (unconditioned/choiceless/effortless awareness). This enlightened/jot-light knowledge- awareness is within each one of us, at this very time at this moment, waiting for us to recognize itself, realize it.

Here are the screenshots from kirtan sohila from wider japji sahib teeka(pdf page- 1012-1013) by sant gyani gurbachan singh bhindranwale. It looks like its starts from arth from gurbani tuk- Tere dane Kimat na Pavaie:

Yes its pretty recent few days old.

Yes and more , here are details on their benefits and rights: https://www.aadnc-aandc.gc.ca/eng/1100100032329/1100100032333

Exclusive debate- Missionaries vs Sant Hari Singh Randhawale Surrey BC..I will translate key points once i m done fully watching the debate:

Pretty much..gorreh are usually jealous of their benefits.

Stage of gurmukh is given by example of baba Buddha ji bhramgyani - Mukh(Outerwards) prema bhagti hirde (internal) gyan of one saroop. There is no mention of fear anywhere in state of gurmukh.

http://www.sgndssi.com/gurudwara/