JasperS

I have noticed a trend on here, that one member in particular seems to keep posting more and more videos and that too with only one narrow point of view. He keeps posting links to those videos, and that is the entirely of his posts, but he never actually posts anything from his own referencing it. For example if I were to post a video I would at least start the discussion by giving my interpretation and such. And then I would allow open discussion on the topic in the video whether or not they agree or disagree with my own interpretation. However this member (paapiman) seems to only be spamming the forum. He posts links as a new topic, doesn't provide any useful discussion regarding what he linked, and then tends to ignore posters or ask for his topics to be locked once discussion begins and someone posts something that is in disagreement to him. This is a discussion forum. Certainly discussion is allowed? Or else this member is only spamming the community. I come here once in awhile and this is all I see, inundated topics from user paapiman every single day and no useful discussion, or if discussion begins, he very quickly gets upset if anyone disagrees with what he posted and then asks for the topic to be locked or says he will ignore any more posts. I think you need to address this.

As for the poison mentioned in Gurbani I do agree with Bhagat Singh Jis interpretation and not the original posters. It's not speaking about turning literal physical poison into literal amrit. Its not speaking of some magical powers. I think it's speaking of that ability that exists in all of us to see beyond the illusion. To me, duality is necessary for us to realize the divine. We can only do so from this vantage point, never from the vantage point of oneness. So instead of remaining separated, focus on using the means we were given to find that divine not. Hence, the poison (Maya) becomes Amrit. Gurbani says we were given this body for this chance to meet Waheguru. So this existence in duality was obviously necessary.

@Rock We have to be VERY careful with that mate, or else we chance labelling someone a sant based on our own liking of that person. Harbhajan Yogi was mentioned above, he managed to get a whole group of people to do all of the above (or think they experienced all the above) by staring at his photo for hours. How much of that was simple delusion? Also how do you explain how some might think one person is a sant but another does not get that at all from that person? What if that second group however sees someone else as a sant who group one doesn't agree is? This is the state of the panth today! Different groups have "their" different sants. And they often disagree with each other on who is a sant or not.

what about the women hating chauvenistic sexist?? Those are ok? Admins, please note that CdnSikhGirl posts are not in any way man hating. However this chatanga is very much woman hating, and in specific he is continually after CdnSikhGirl (satkirin?) and I don't think this should be allowed. She has not said anything to him.

So then what things in Sikhi did the Gurus give to women that men dont have? If rights are given to men that women dont have certainly there would be things to balance it out that women have which men dont? And dont say childbirth because that has nothing to do with religion. I mean in the religion. Because if rights were given to men more than women, then it very much does make a statement of superiority and preference. How are the women supposed to feel when the only reason they have these fewer less rights than you, is their gender (something they had no control over)? Certainly seems like Waheguru is giving preference to some souls over others no? To be born in a male body is then a privilege while being born a female which already has hardships like childbirth is even less privileged with these fewer less rights in Sikhi. You really have to stop doing nindiya of people especially her. How do you explain the tuk CdnSikhGirl posted above? As gurmukh look upon all with single eye of equality for in each and every heart the divine light is contained. Are you gurmukh or manmukh? The choice is yours.

you are saying the Gurus thought women were inferior and wanted them to be treated inferior? You really think women are beneath you? Try telling your own Mother that she is inferior to you! And you really need to stop being such an ass towards CdnSikhGirl. No wonder she seems so disheartened with supposed Singhs like you saying that our Gurus thought of women as less than men.

there is not much out there maybe on here we should have some resources?

I am basing it off my experience at actual gurdwara run by taksals. The women were not even allowed to participate in akhand paath. Explain why? And it wasn't that there were just none there that day, they said women are not allowed. They told me women job is to just sit quietly and listen. No woman is allowed to sit on tabya at all there. The taksali Singh there told me women are seen as lower spiritual level than men and in all likleyhood will have to be reborn in a male joon to achieve liberation. I only mention akhand kirtani jatha because CdnSikhGirl is looking for Sikh group who practices equality and they do in all regards. I know that taksals and them in general have a fairly good relationship as taksals think akj is good at kirtan and simran, while akj thinks taksals are good at pronounciation of gurbani. Sant jarnail singh bhindranwale even praised akjs. I dont understand why some on here hate them so much other than they treat women as equals. And maybe raagmala issue but not all akjs disregard raagmala either. Lets not get into if taksal is the same as in the beginning or even if the beliefs are the same. we all know how easy it is to change over time. akjs also claim to have lineage back to tenth master. taksalis will fight it tooth and nail and akjs will fight taksalis claim tooth and nail. akjs believe their rehet is closest to original especially what is in guru gobind singh ji 52 hukams. And then there is sikh rehat maryada which was arrived at by panthic decision and guru gobind singh gave the panth decision making power. so if nothing else this prooves sikhi is adaptable. if nothing was ever meant to change, then panth would never have been given decision making power and everything would have been black and white from the beginning with addendum saying nothing can ever be changed ever. khalsa is now voice of guru gobind singh ji. and this was done on purpose. instead of fighting on who is closest to the beginning why not accept that guru ji gave adaptability to the religion? and just accept that in modern world, women no longer wish to have limited positon.

Never even mind yes it is. If you are looking for some glimmer of hope in the wording that they treat women on equal level, no they don't. And they don't make secret of it either. You have seen some of the attitude on here already on how males get higher respect. They don't even allow bibis to participate in akhand paths. Their thinking is very brahminical. The only thing they think women are good for is hidden away doing kitchen work and serving the men. If you want equality stay away from them. They think all religious duties and leadership should be men. I don't even know how they got so popular lately before sant jarnail singh bhindranwale they were nothing just a small group with not much influence. Now look at the youth. They are all turning into women hating sexist. If you want to be seen and treated as equal, check Akhand Kirtani Jatha I think you will be happy. Dr. Navtej Purewal of Oxford University has pointed out in a study on Sikhism that many of the so called deras and sants take women's service for granted and their service is expected to be low profile compared to men. This is upheld in deras and these so called sants restrict women's participation greatly. If Gurbani is telling us everyone are equal how can women be kept from equal service in the panth? It is a huge disservice to our Gurus to relegate women back to the background, hidden, passive influence in the panth, out of leadership roles, out of prominence. Our Gurus taught differently, Gurbani speaks of equality, yet we are doing these things and breeding hatred of women. Just look at some of the comments on here lately. Singhs (or at least they are passing themselves off as Singhs) in disgust over women's bodies and biological functions, coming straight out and saying that giving women less opportunity is somehow not discriminatory, just a different role. Yes, don't delude yourselves at least call it what it is! It is very much discrimination. And our Gurus were against it. Ask yourself if you would want the supposed role you are telling women they have. To be hidden in background, refused opportunity simply because of something you had no control over, your gender. CdnSikhGirl. check out akhand kirtani jatha. Bhai Rhandir Singh Ji believed in equality as taught by our Gurus. This has nothing to do with western feminism. It has everything to do with being a decent human being.

How can you say this when you yourself have spoken against Gurbani?

Really? I thought Sikhism was teaching equality long before western world had equality! Guru Nanak Dev Ji was the first feminist! Why do you hate women so much Paapiman? Gurbani makes it clear women and men are both equal and deserve equal respect and equal treatment. (in fact all humans are to be treated equally) But I have noticed you always say the word optimum and not equal. Its like you wont ever say that women should have equal privelege to us. Like you think that optimum for women means some place lower than men. If that is so, why do you think women are being punished to have a lower place? I am just curious where you are getting this hatred of women from? Why you think so strongly that our sisters Mothers and daughters deserve less than we do simply because of something they had no control over, which is being born into a female body? If women are to be treated with less dignity, less respect than men are, then what did they do to deserve that lower place? And what sampradas are teaching this? This sounds much more like Hindu ideology where being born woman is a punishment for past karmas and women are seen as lower than even the lowest caste male. I will choose to follow gurbani over anything and gurbani is clear on everyone being treated and seen as equal. This includes women. I can't look at my Mother and say Mom, you are a woman so you deserve less respect than Dad does. I won't ever look at my daughter and tell her that her brother has a higher status than her because he is male. I refuse to tell my daughter she is less than a man and deserves less respect. You say feminism has no place in Sikhism. Proper feminism only seeks to give women their proper equal rights. It doesn't seek to take anything away from males. At lest if it is proper feminism. Any males who are against that idea, are purely chauvenistic sexist and afraid of losing their perceived superiority. It's all Ego. By the way this is what Guru Nanak Dev Ji had to say on the issue: Gurmukẖ ek ḏarisat kar ḏekhhu ghat ghat joṯ samoi jio. That means every gurmukh must see everyone as an equal. If you don't follow that, you are not gurmukh, you are manmukh.

Do you think everyone should be able to vote? Including those who don't follow proper rehet maryada? Think of it this way. We have a certain identity. Already in the above article, you can see Hindus trying to snatch up the clean shaven trying to associate with them more. If we allow those to vote who resemble more like Hindus exactly who (and more importantly what) will be voted in? Shouldn't we at least keep voting to those who took Amrit and actually follow what is required of us?

Where was this? Could it have been Pakistan controlled Kashmir? edit: lot of them look like Muslim, don't understand why Sikhs would participate in this. I am at a loss.

I was speaking with someone on this topic recently, and we came up with a solution that would be equitable. If sampradas insist on restricting Singhnis from seva of guru granth sahib ji for several days a month, then a mandatory restriction should also be placed on all Singhs for several days each month as well (symbolically). They can take their days at any time, but for those days they can not do seva of SGGSJ out of respect for women and the days must be consecutive. This would include ALL males in younger age bracket as you want to impose this restriction on all females of childbearing years. That would create fairness. Then both males and females both would be restricted for several days each month. If you can't stand the thought of that idea (or feel like it is discrimination) then please leave the women alone, you have no right to talk. They know how to take care of their hygiene issues especially in modern times and are no more "dirty" than you are.

No we usually think we are superior so we dont need to. There is nothing in Sikhi by the way that says they can not do seva while menstruating. And anyone who thinks its gross is only dealing with their own issues. Modern products are way different than what was available a long time ago. They are just as clean as anyone else. Guest Gora are you male or female? (Gora means male version of the word) anyway there is nothing stopping women from doing seva. Just make sure you take care of your hygiene and there is nothing wrong. Don't worry the women I know do not stink while on their periods, don't listen to this guest guy above. Just use common sense and protection to avoid embarrassment. Nobody will know anyway unless you tell them.)

You are correct Sant Ji is not holding anything against women. Because he was never justifying it. He was just telling what happened as a result of no women having volunteered that day. He wasn't condoning keeping women from that seva for all time. He was just saying because no woman gave her head that day, this is why men are now keeping women from that seva. He was giving facts and the result. When I listened to original I never got that he was telling us to keep women from it. Rather the opposite. I have been lurking here for awhile. I have seen quite a few members on here condoning a lesser position for women, not just those two. Though those two seem to be ruthless, and heartless. They are not acting like proper Singhs. Her not letting it go, is not the same as the outright insults spewed by them towards her. The difference is she is speaking about subjects in general, and they are directing personal attacks.

This is my point! The fact that most of you think what they go through is not important enough to deal with! Like I asked Paapiman and chatanga above, do the same. Put yourself in a hypothetical position where all the gurus were female, the first five were female, our main holy place only allowed females to do seva, one of our holy books is openly (apparently) anti male, you were told that a biological function that is an imperative part of being a man, was seen as dirty and unclean, and makes you unsuitable for seva because of it, in some sampradas you are told that upon marriage you have to see your spouse as God, and they only have to see you as a follower, historical rhetnamas telling women to never trust a man, even ones in your own family, members saying that men are downgrades to women bodies, that men are a part of human kind but are not quite human, people posting that since you obviously would not be happy in your male body you can recite sukhmani shaib to have a female body next time, nearly all the gurdwara management committees are female dominated, all granthis you see are females, most ragi jathas are females and only the female ones can perform at darbar sahib. Seriously, if it was only one thing, you might be able to get away saying its not important. But seriously put yourself in their mindset for a minute. You can't seriously say that you wouldn't feel helpless and mute. And I am only trying to get you guys to understand what they are going through. You might not care about what your sister or Mother are subjected to. I care about mine! And lastly, I don't think CdnSikhGirl deserves what she has been subjected to on here. You guys are seriously heartless! My point about Akal Takht was you showed the edict about dasam granth. My point is that if you are using an Akal Takht edict to support your argument, then you can't ignore other things support by akal takht like women as part of the panj. Otherwise you are cherrypicking. Sant Ji also did not say women can't. He was saying if you listen with an open mind, he was saying that the result of no women volunteering that day was that no man would allow women to now. He was not supporting keeping women from this seva. He was merely saying this is the result of no women having volunteered that day. As a result men will hold this against women, and this is why we have no women in the panj now. The speech was actually about him saying women and men are equal in Sikhi and deserve equal seva. It was not an instruction by Sant Ji to keep women from the Panj. But that is how it was taken. Also Sants don't speak for the whole panth anyway. But listen to Sant Ji's speech again and with an open mind and you will see what I mean. Not the english translation subtitles but listen to the original. It was like Christians in the bible it says that God said to Eve as a result of their sin in eden, that her husband would rule over her. Many have taken it to mean that it was an instruction or punishment approved by God that men would rule over women. When instead if you read it closely what it is saying is that due to sin or the fallen state, men would rule over women. It wasn't however commanded by or even endorsed by God. (I understand its a different religion but its a good comparison since its related and I took theology in Uni).

I am not saying its not authentic. What I am saying is try and understand where our sisters, Mothers, daughters are coming from. If you were in their shoes and all you saw at every turn was negativity towards the female gender how would you take it? Simple fact is, it is very hard to rectify to our own families that dasam granth is somehow not anti-female. Most families just pretend it doesn't exist and focus only on Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Others have their wives bowing to their husbands because of the obvious difference in status. So let me ask you outright, going by the material we have available, what was our Guru's view of women (in general)? Now after you have your answer add to that, the extra things we put on women to give them less opportunities than us, what we expect of them in marriage, what some sants have actually said about women, less opportunities for seva, the fact that nearly all leadership in our religion is male dominated. How do you honestly think any woman will feel (even if she doesn't say anything?) And you guys are wondering why a gori convert is becoming disheartened? When you are ripping her a new one for even questioning it, and you are all emphasizing a Sikhi where women have less rights than us. It seems like you support a Sikhi where women are welcome, as long as they shut up remain quiet, accept they are lower than us, and never question anything that puts women down. Seriously is this what our Gurus wanted?? Go to any website on Sikhism online, and you will see every one states men and women are treated equally. So why the big disparity? If we believe women are lesser beings, then why not come out and just say it? Why try to make Sikhi look like it treats them with equal respect when it doesn't? Better to be honest up front no? Anyway a good portion of my family do not believe that all of dasam granth is authentic. In fact even the stories in charitropakhyan are rewritten from previous stories that already existed. That much we know. And if Guru Gobind Singh did rewrite them, did he ever even intend them to be read by the masses? Or were they just a private collection? All we do know for sure, is that we are using them for more harm than good. And I find it funny you guys would support Akal Takht edict on this but then ignore Akal Takht's edict to include women as one of the Panj Pyaras! You can't pick and choose which bits you want to follow!

For chatanga and paapiman both please do something for me. Imagine for a moment, that all our Gurus were Female. And that one of our religion's holy books had over 600 pages devoted to stories that make your gender (male) look completely immoral and deceitful. Now imagine, that majority of the members on here (all female of course) post things like men are lower status than women, men can never initiate people into the Khalsa as one of the five (who of course were also all female in the original five), men when they marry must see their wives as God (but of course the wives only have to see their husbands as followers who are expected to obey), oh, and you can't do certain seva because of a biological function that is central to your gender (let's say whenever you produce sperm) because its considered unclean, and at our religion's most holy place the most recognized by the world, you can't even sing kirtan there only women can. Only women can do palki sahib seva there, or be granthi. Now lets look at historical rhetnamas some of which say women are never to trust men, even their own husbands. And lets skip to a few days ago some female members post about how men should never wear turbans (the one article that makes Sikhs stand out as Sikhs) because men have to be men and that of course is not to emmulate the form of our Gurus but to be different, lower. Seriously please answer, how would that make you feel? I'm very sure you are reeling at the thought. You would feel after all of that, that Sikhi and all the Kaurs on here are against your gender. You would question if even our Gurus themselves were against you. I am very sure you would challenge the above in light of what Gurbani actually says. You would be no different than how CdnSikhGirl is approaching things. Sure, many of our women remain passive and just endure it. But are they only enduring it because they know we, men, will fight tooth and nail to keep them in this lower position? It doesn't make it right at all. We should be following Gurbani not our desire to be better than women and control them. Seriously think about this. You might laugh at the above. But for women this is the reality. But this is NOT what I believe our Gurus taught. Yes our Gurus were male form but they actually gave message of equality of females! That means more than if they were females trying to say the same thing!

I have seen some of your own quotes bro and you clearly don't. I mean respect on equal level. Not respect as a lower being. Your Mother is not a lower human than you. She doesn't deserve less out of life than you do. But some of the quotes you have posted about women being downgrades to men, that we shouldn't trust women those are wrong. Most of the people I know not to trust are all my own gender and its embarrassing.

Ok I wont but trying to be a martyr on here for womens cause is a useless endeavour. Its obvious most of them hate women and will never change their mind. I know you are a gori convert, I have lot of respect, just know that most Sikhs are not like these guys.

Sometimes people don't want to register because they see how much attacking others do on here if someone disagrees with them. Maybe some members also who do have accounts want to post anonymously because they fear if they say something controversial they will be attacked by other members and wont be one of the gang anymore. I have lurked here for over a year, and all I have seen are hatred and people being attacked. I have seen several members leave because they were ganged up on so badly that they felt it was not a good place to have a sane discussion (sikh khoj I think and another) and I have seen the females be attacked constantly. Is this a Sikh forum for all Sikhs or just for certain sampradas because it seems anyone who disagrees with certain sampradas beliefs will be attacked maliciously until they leave. I was not going to register but I did because I wanted to address this. This site looks anything but welcoming to new members.

Celibacy is not required to find God. But some groups may practice it because they feel like it creates less distraction so they can devote their lives to God. Catholic priests and nuns are required to be celibate just as an example. But celibacy in the religion catholicism is not required actually quite the opposite. Same for certain Buddhist monks etc.

I wasn't going to register but I did because this has gone way too far. Nothing she has ever done has been despicable. All she has ever done was promoted equality of Singhs and Kaurs. If you think that is despicable then it tells way more about you than her. All I have seen is you going on and on and on about her. Over something stupid since last year! You sent a PM trying to get her to leave the forum because you dont agree with gender equality and wanted to shut her up. Then when she told everyone what you did, you went on a tirade ever since calling her a liar because she paraphrased your PM and somehow you think asking someone to leave is ok! YOUR conduct is what was despicable! And though I reserve judgement on dasam granth, try just for once, looking at it from the side of a Kaur. Take yourself off your high male pedestal for a moment (and before you accuse me I am also male), just look at it from their point of view. If the tables were reversed and many many pages in what you are being told is a holy book from our Guru, is painting your entire gender as immoral, deceivers and not to be trusted. And then add on top of that other members like paapiman with his backward thinking of women, members on here saying women can't do as much seva as us because they have periods, members saying that women have lower status than their husbands, rhetnamas saying that women are never to be trusted, paapimans stupidity saying that women should bow to men and that men deserve more respect. Now how does it feel to be the gender thats being attacked? Almost maliciously and with hatred? I am willing to bet that inside that abhorrent hateful brain of yours, you are jumping for joy and thanking Waheguru for being born a male. This site and most members on here I bet would never say any of these things to their Mother! You should all be ashamed (not just chatanga)! You are not Singhs! How can you believe our Gurus taught these things about women? And then condemn a female for speaking against it! Sikhi does not teach hatred of women, but here you have it! Chatanga you as a Singh are the one who instead of reassuring her that women are treated equally in Sikhi, choose to continually put female gender down and then continue to do call her every name in the book, simply because she challenged the idea that women could somehow be equal status to men in Sikhi and challenged what looks very obviously like it paints women in a huge low light? You can't deny that dasam granth overtly looks like it puts down the entire female gender! Why don't YOU stop the blame game and all Singhs, and start realizing that much of the immorality is caused by Singhs not Kaurs! I know many more Singhs who commit adultery, watch porn, drinking, etc than women. And I know Singhs who have seduced women (including goris) to sleep with them and then think its a joke. Just drop it! You are making yourself look like a retard! And you are only further making this site look bad. From the outside it looks like anyone who suggests women should have any semblance of equality in Sikhi will be torn into pieces and called the lowest. Get a life!