SUKHBIR

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh, As you will see from the date of the BBC report below it is coming up to one year since the Indian state admitted that the five 'Pakistani terrorists' that they claimed were responsible for the execution of 35 Sikh men on the eve of Bill Clintons visit to India were infact innocent Muslim villager's. As you read the article below you will see that DNA samples handled by government agencies had been tampered with. Again this is reluctantly admitted by the state and not simply my or anybody else's opinion. Clearly the killing of these innocents was the first step in covering the complicity of the indian security forces in the Sikh killing's, the subsequent tampering of the evidence was an attempt to hide the true identity of the so called 'terrorists' that india claimed were Pakistani agent's but who we know now were simply local Muslim youth's. The indian security forces did go to great lengths to burn and disfigure the bodies after murdering them so as to make identification impossible, miraculously although the bodies were charred beyond recognition the plastic Pakistani identity cards they were supposedly carrying were intact ! The evidence is clearly here that the government is still involved in a rather poor cover up, poor because it doesn't really cover up anything. At the time of the murders many savvy commentators were already questioning as to who the beneficiary of such an action would be. The leader of the world's superpower is visiting india that very evening to discuss amongst other thing's Kashmir. Bear in mind that no Sikh has been attacked to date in the long violent struggle within Kashmir, Pakistan decides to hand india the ammunition it needs to convince the US that Pakistan is a supporter of terrorism by massacring 35 Sikhs and the charade continues as the indian army round up the Pakistani killers, kill and then burn them. Result, india is vindicated as a victim enduring ongoing provocation from blood thirsty diabolical Muslim terrorist group's that are covertly sponsored by Pakistan. That's one way to get Bill on your side and what's the cost? Well... 35 Sikhs and 5 Muslims, a bargain by indian standards. The reason I am posting this now is two fold, firstly because it's going to be a year since this information came into the public domain, predictably india is sat on its hand's, perhaps remembering that they managed to white wash the Delhi pogroms successfully by delaying report after report and court trial after court trial and waiting for the Sikhs to forget. You cannot blame them for thinking we will forget Chitisingpora in time as well. And secondly because the recent anniversary of the criminal bluestar and it's massacres revealed to me a certain section within the Sikh community that feel that what happened in 1984 is history we should neither discuss nor remember but conveniently forget, I admit I understand the sentiment but it is borne out of ignorance. 1984 did not just 'occur' it was not a coincidental event, the catalyst's for that period can be traced back several decades to the time of 'independence'. Equally the events of that period (84) did not end on the 31st December 1984 nor did they end ten year's ago or last night for that matter, remember Amnesty's latest report into the Panjab and S. Kutha's acquittal were announced only this year. We are not talking about the past but the here and now, Chittisingpora and other massacres will continue to plague us until we can find the courage to realise our position within the indian state and thus the world order. In many way's burying your head in the sand can be a quite attractive option but bluestar, woodrose, black thunder etc. are the price you pay. If we are not careful we will get a reputation for being a forgetful people and so we will continue to suffer. I am sure that the likes of Sajjan Kutha, HKL Faghat and Jagdish Titler cannot believe they are still breathing although I am equally sure they never thought they would spend a night behind bar's, well not in the worlds largest hypocrisy anyway. By the same token there are people there in Delhi who know who removed those turbans, who tied those Chitisingpora villagers hands behind their backs, who lined them up in front of a wall with their families and who shot them dead and you know something else? They like S. Kutha and co. have nothing to worry about because you see the Sikhs, well they have become a forgetful lot. The question is are they right? Gur Fateh Sukhbir Singh

Waheguru ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru ji Ki Fateh, It seems the debate as to the intentions and purpose of 'shastarvidiya' and similar 'dubious' site's continues but not on the main debates and discussion section? It is easily missed in the small section described as ' Sikh martial art's/Nihangs' (by me anyway!). Did take a quick look at some of the recent postings no surprise that narsingha is typically evasive when it comes to answering a straight question. I would suggest that on the question someone posted with regards to 'Khalistan', have you looked at the site this individual represents? If not take a look, you will see 'they' question the idea of Sikhism as a independent faith never mind the concept of a sovereign Sikh state! Narsingha, from many of the post's here and elsewhere, I am thankful that most of us can see the clear bias and loyalties that your site(s) conform to, much to your chagrin I am sure, but to what extent are you connected to UKPHA? It would seem to me that you are one and the same, is this correct? If so isn't UKPHA a registered charity supported by public grant / lottery money? I would hate to think that public money was being spent to support websites that are supposedly Sikh but do not represent the collective beliefs of the vast majority of Sikhs in this country or elsewhere. Further much of the content could be construed as anti-Sikh in sentiment and purpose. Rest assured I will be looking into this further since I have resigned myself to not excepting you to answer any of the questions I have posed. I also wanted to post the article below, for those of you who are not familiar the 'man in blue' is a Chardi Kala Dutch Sikh convert who has a regular column in the Sikh Times and can always be seen in attendance at events of Sikh interest. ---------------------------------------------------------------- Narsingha, finally I thought you may appreciate a small excerpt from the Kathmandu post in tribute to your chosen namesake. Gur Fateh Sukhbir Singh

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh, I am beginning to wonder about the very obvious links between the UKPHA the people who are currently running various talk's and seminars and the website creators of 'shatarvidiya' are we to find that lottery money is funding what they imagine to be a Sikh site? Any one have any more information? Gur Fateh Sukhbir Singh --------------------------------------------

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh, Are we the protectors of Hind? Well although you will never hear it from an indian these day's Guru Teg Bahadur was oft reffered to as 'Hind De Chaddar' (protector of Hind 'india') but the indians have short memories when it comes to remembering those who sacrificed themselves for them, they think you suffer from selective amnesia as well that's why they spread misinformation and lies with confidence because they believe you don't remember anyway, the Q is ....do you? When Guru Teg Bahadur ji met with Aurangzeb to protest at the treatment of the kashmiri pandits, whom had approached the Guru to plead with him to save their faith through his sacrifice it is reported that Aurangzeb asked Guruji "what is this? The first Nanak would not wear the junoo (sacred thread) and here you stand as the ninth Nanak telling me you will not allow us to remove it !! What sort of wisdom is this ? It was then that Guruji replied that it is not the junoo that is at issue, it is a question of FORCE. Guru Nanak was being forced to wear the thread so he denied it and you Aurangzeb are now forcing it's removal. That which we cannot allow is the use of force by the strong upon the weak. Had you been a Hindu ruler who persecuted your muslim subjects then again I would have come to raise my voice against your tyranny. So you see this idea that we were a creation brought into existence only to save the faith of anyone group of people is entirely false. If you want to see where this idea was conceived just look at the people who seek to popularise this myth. Most right wing hindu groups are subscribers to this amongst many more lies and distortions that aim to weaken the khalsa from it's root's. Which is why it is so important to have a good understanding of Sikhe so that the next time someone puts a spurious argument such as this, your reply will have the strength to shake the fool to HIS roots. Gur Fateh Sukhbir Singh

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh, Saw this poem, how can we forget? How can we allow the world to forget? Gur Fateh Sukhbir Singh -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh, It is often said that the truth will always reveal itself eventually. The crime of 'bluestar' and the bloody regime that followed is becoming increasingly recognised as the most bloody, shameful and misreported period in india's short but tragic history. The statement's below would not be so surprising coming from a historian, anthropologist, human right's campaigner or from a US senator or British MP. What is surprising is not the content, that is well known to anyone who has studied that period but the fact they come from a retired Vice Chief of Staff from the indian army!! It is fair to say that as time moves on more truthful indian voices will be heard on the subject because it is no longer considered politically sensitive. It may not appear to be to the indian establishment but it is still a burning issue to the Sikhs, from a historical perspective 'bluestar' did set in process a movement that is yet to reach it's ultimate destination. In the big scheme of things 19 years is not a long time and the Sikhs as a people are known to have long memories, although looking around recently, this cannot be said of all. Indian voices that express the guilt of their nation are not a bad thing but neither are they something that we should be thankful for. It is one thing to say you were wrong and it's another to say your sorry and bear in mind the vast majority of indians still believe the rubbish that was pumped out by the state controlled media and rabid anti-Sikh press of the time. Gur Fateh Sukhbir Singh (please also take a look at www.carnage84.com contains witness statement's and official documentation, also The CCDP Report, the product of six years of field research under dangerous conditions, can be found at: http://www.punjabjustice.org/. It is a must read for anyone who cares about human rights Punjab. It is the most comprehensive accounting of human rights violations against Sikhs in Punjab thus far. Fateh to the field workers who gathered the familiy testimonies and to the authors who synethesized the field research.) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- While fighting against the army during June 5 - 7 1984, Sikhs inside the Golden Temple Complex at Amritsar were : This is the unequivocal statement made by Lieutenant General S.K. Sinha (Retd.), former Vice Chief of the Army Staff and presently Governor of Assam. Said the General, highly respected and regarded for this sagacity and professional skills, that This was towards 1981-end when Darbara Singh was Chief minister or nearly 30 months before the Army actually struck at Amritsar. This was long before the Akalis launched their morcha in August 1982 Shortly after the morcha, the Army began rehearsals of a commando raid near Chakrata cantonment in the maintains over the Doon Valley where a replica of the Golden Temple complex had been built. Fortification of the complex, according to SGPC Secretary Bhan Singh, started from February 17, 1984. And that also after CRPF and BSF units had resorted to unprovoked firing and had begun converting the buildings on the periphery of the temple into bunkers and fortresses. This action by Sikhs was a response to the provocation provided by Government's para military forces. Again, toward May-end 1984, CRPF and BSF units deliberately fired thousands of bullets every day on the temple areas for more than a week in order to find out from the return firing, as was officially admitted later, where the terrorist fortifications were located and what kind of equipment they had. This was given a deliberate design to escalate the conflict. No Sikh worth his salt could allow easy entry into the Golden Temple area to any armed force. It is his sacred duty to smash the enemy's teeth and sacrifice his life while fighting. This is what Sant Bhindrawale and his men did. In the best tradition of Sikh warriors, they fought to the last bullet and their last breath. Sant Bhindranwale's previous commissions and omissions stand washed by his making the supreme sacrifice of life for a noble cause. The state of india shall live to rue the day of June 5, 1984.

Just realised this is not posted as personal experience by Jazz but thought I would post my reply anyway. Waheguru Ji Ka khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh, Bhenji, I am going to take it that your post is entirely genuine there are however some people who feel it is justified to spread stories such as this in order to incite hatred between group's and it always seem's to be about muslim guy's and Sikh girl's. Sikh men are not often (if ever) associated with cowardice this is not bias on my part but by and large you will find most people agree including muslim's. Your brother, though a turban wearing Sikh has missed the point by a long way if he tolerates such humiliation of course he need's help in understanding who he is and what he represent's when wearing the uniform of a Sikh. The Sikhs are renknowned the world over as some of the bravest fighting men on earth this is our Guru's legacy who proclaimed that he would teach the sparrow to fight the hawk, through this knowledge he would be able to instill the confidence that is necessary to face a foe without fear. You give your location as Ilford I do happen to know a number of Sikh brother's and sister's there, I must admit the Singh's I do know there are not the sort of people who would be bullied by anyone !! Anyway I can forward you the detail's of some bhenji's who would be happy to talk to you and offer possible assistance to re-unite you with your family. Remember everyone make's mistakes and ultimately your family love you despite what they may say and never forget the religion you were born into is one of compassion and love, in the eye's of the Guru you are still a beautiful soul with as much potential as you ever had. Take one step toward's your Guru and he will take ten towards you. There are a number of gurudwara in Ilford and they are open at all times the next time you feel down go there, and sit for a while, it may be that you do that when it is quiet in the evening or early morning and I promise you that you will feel a warmth, a peace. This peace help's us to gain perspective it is only human to make mistake's but as long as you live, everyday promise's the gift of a new beginning. Gur Fateh Sukhbir Singh

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh, Thank you Veer steel bangle, It is heartening to know that you understand what I am trying to get across. Excellent pic you have ' parnam shaheeda nu' it is now my screen saver ! Off topic but I see your based in the UK did you by any chance go to the 1984 lobby day at the houses of parliament yesterday? Good to hear British MP's calling the Indian goverment very 'shady indeed' ;-) Gur Fateh Sukhbir Singh

Waheguru ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh, Bhaji, this is simply a practical consideration what is at question is the 'principle' of equality. Imagine a situation where there are hardly any Singh's left (history show's us that at the height of Mogul persecution this was a very real situation) at that time if we could not raise five male Sikhs would we then not carry out the Amrit ceremony for those Guru de Pyarae who wished to join the Khalsa? We have already discussed the reasons as to why it was highely unlikely for a woman to be one of the original panj pyarae but this was a matter of the period as opposed to any 'design' as Mr Singh point's out the request Guruji made was for five heads he did not stipulate their sex. Of course there are natural differences between men and women but as long as women are physically able to do the seva then there is no religious reasoning as to why they should not. There have been a number of quotes posted in support of the pro-stance and those who do not agree, do not question the principle of equality within the Sikh faith therefore the only reasoning that has been given for not allowing women to carry out this seva has been personal opinion. Some people simply hark back to the fact that there weren't women that offered their head on that particular day but that is not to say that thousands of women haven't offered their head since then and are today recognised as shaheed's. If on that day one woman and four men had stood would you say that it is neccessary to have exactly that same formation for subsequent ceremonies? The ceremony took place in the Panjab surely that is as big a part of the tradition then? As far as the recent furore over whether women can or cannot do 'palki de sewa' or 'granthi de sewa' I think the answer is obvious to any person who has a basic understanding of Sikhi. The present situation is an unfortunate clash of ego's and personalities that should have no place in matters of this nature. To try and ban women from certain type's of sewa we are turning our back on the principles of our Guru's and it will serve only to weaken the panth. If there are those that consider certain type's of sewa inappropriate for women are there then type's of sewa that are inappropriate for men? The principle of equality is something we as Sikhs should be proud and protective of we are unique within the world religions for many reasons and this is one of them. Really this being June and thus 19 years since the most important event in recent Sikh history should we not be directing our energies elsewhere? Gur Fateh Sukhbir Singh

Kaal, re-posted the mail you were going to answer here since the other thread has been rightly, closed off. Waheguru ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh, Kaal, Firstly you are mistaken, although equality of the sexes is now taken to be a western ideal as I pointed out earlier this is a very new phenomenon in the west. Women did not receive the right to vote with men in equal term's until 1928 in England, prior to that women had virtually no right's whatsoever in western society and no protection under the law they were traded and treated pretty much like cattle and seen as the property of men. Be clear that the indian philosophy of having women subservient to men is one of control and no different to having shudras subservient to brahmins, it only 'worked' as you put it in the interests of men on the principal that women were property. The state of women in India today is something that the indians should be ashamed, not proud of. The levels of female infanticide, prostitution, child marriage, rape are amongst the highest in the world and when your talking about tradition's don't forget Sati and ritual prostitution like the 'Devdasi' that is still carried out to this day. Whenyou talk of indian philosophy you are talking of one that treat's women despicably but that is not our philosophy should we follow the Sikh path then Guru Nank dev ji advises that. From woman, man is born; within woman, man is conceived; to woman he is engaged and married. Woman becomes his friend; through woman, the future generations come. When his woman dies, he seeks another woman; to woman he is bound. So why call her bad? From her, kings are born. From woman, woman is born; without woman, there would be no one at all. O Nanak, only the True Lord is without a woman. That mouth which praises the Lord continually is blessed and beautiful. O Nanak, those faces shall be radiant in the Court of the True Lord. || 2 || (Page 473) When you are talking about what you see as the breakdown of society I assume you are referring to the lack of moral values and the erosion of the nuclear family in western society. Of course this is an entire discussion on it's own but a major cause of western society's ills at the moment is still the lack of equality. Women have simply swapped old shackles for new one's. Just to re-iterate gender equality should not be confused as a western principle when the likes of Guru Nanak dev ji were preaching it's virtues 500 years ago. Incidentally a time that saw women bought and sold freely in the west. If "apni kuris" as you put it want equality that is exactly what their faith offer's them in it's doctrine it is absolutely right that this should be followed through in practice. Like I mentioned earlier the brand of 'equality' that you talk about, the one that is paraded by marketing men day and night through every media possible, one which leads many women to mental illness because they cannot fulfil the new stereotype she is meant to represent is very different to the true equality that Sikhi espouses. The sort of ad-man equality that in many way's is responsible for the detrimental effects you talk of can be illustrated thus. In the 50's it was the loving mother/ housewife who would cook and clean all day and still have a smile when her hubby walked through the day, nowadays she is excepted to be a assertive/aggressive, slim and beautiful career woman sexually liberated and leaving a string of men sobbing in her wake. Of course both these pictures were not drawn by women but by men and when women cannot live up to these excpectations we see new and negative results like anorexia, bulimia, huge rise in cosmetic surgery, obesity, alcoholism, drug-abuse etc. As well as the inevitable breakdown of moral values and the family unit. Of course this is a simplistic look at a very complex subject but I hope it served to show the difference between the true equality that is reffered to in reference to this post and the bogus equality you allude to. This is not the type of equality we are talking about when discussing the right of women to do ANY seva a man can. Think of it this way why should a woman be discriminated against on the grounds of something that she had no control over i.e.. the determination of her sex and how is this different to someone being discriminated against on the basis of caste? Would you say Guru Nanak Dev Ji was a feminist? I do not think so, he was a humanist as all Sikhs should aspire to be. Gur Fateh Sukhbir Singh

Waheguru ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh, Kaal, Firstly you are mistaken, although equality of the sexes is now taken to be a western ideal as I pointed out earlier this is a very new phenomenon in the west. Women did not receive the right to vote with men in equal term's until 1928 in England, prior to that women had virtually no right's whatsoever in western society and no protection under the law they were traded and treated pretty much like cattle and seen as the property of men. Be clear that the indian philosophy of having women subservient to men is one of control and no different to having shudras subservient to brahmins, it only 'worked' as you put it in the interests of men on the principal that women were property. The state of women in India today is something that the indians should be ashamed, not proud of. The levels of female infanticide, prostitution, child marriage, rape are amongst the highest in the world and when your talking about tradition's don't forget Sati and ritual prostitution like the 'Devdasi' that is still carried out to this day. When you talk of indian philosophy you are talking of one that treat's women despicably but that is not our philosophy should we follow the Sikh path then Guru Nanak dev ji advises that. From woman, man is born; within woman, man is conceived; to woman he is engaged and married. Woman becomes his friend; through woman, the future generations come. When his woman dies, he seeks another woman; to woman he is bound. So why call her bad? From her, kings are born. From woman, woman is born; without woman, there would be no one at all. O Nanak, only the True Lord is without a woman. That mouth which praises the Lord continually is blessed and beautiful. O Nanak, those faces shall be radiant in the Court of the True Lord. || 2 || (Page 473) When you are talking about what you see as the breakdown of society I assume you are referring to the lack of moral values and the erosion of the nuclear family in western society. Of course this is an entire discussion on it's own but a major cause of western society's ills at the moment is still the lack of equality. Women have simply swapped old shackles for new one's. Just to re-iterate gender equality should not be confused as a western principle when the likes of Guru Nanak dev ji were preaching it's virtues 500 years ago. Incidentally a time that saw women bought and sold freely in the west. If "apni kuris" as you put it want equality that is exactly what their faith offer's them in it's doctrine it is absolutely right that this should be followed through in practice. Like I mentioned earlier the brand of 'equality' that you talk about, the one that is paraded by marketing men day and night through every media possible, one which leads many women to mental illness because they cannot fulfil the new stereotype she is meant to represent is very different to the true equality that Sikhi espouses. The sort of ad-man equality that in many way's is responsible for the detrimental effects you talk of can be illustrated thus. In the 50's it was the loving mother/ housewife who would cook and clean all day and still have a smile when her hubby walked through the day, nowadays she is excepted to be a assertive/aggressive, a slim and beautiful career woman sexually liberated and leaving a string of men sobbing in her wake. Of course both these pictures were not drawn by women but by men and when women cannot live up to these excpectations we see new and negative results like anorexia, bulimia, huge rise in cosmetic surgery, obesity, alcoholism, drug-abuse etc. As well as the inevitable breakdown of moral values and the family unit. Of course this is a simplistic look at a very complex subject but I hope it served to show the difference between the true equality that is reffered to in reference to this post and the bogus equality you allude to. This is not the type of equality we are talking about when discussing the right of women to do ANY seva a man can. Think of it this way why should a woman be discriminated against on the grounds of something that she had no control over i.e.. the determination of her sex and how is this different to someone being discriminated against on the basis of caste? Would you say Guru Nanak Dev Ji was a feminist? I do not think so, he was a humanist as all Sikhs should aspire to be. Gur Fateh Sukhbir Singh

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa waheguru Ji Ki Fateh, If the Amrit ceremony of 1699 was to be carried out as a historical re-enactment then it would be inaccurate to have a female representing one of the original panj pyarae because the fact of the matter is that none of the panj pyarae of 1699 were women that's fairly straightforward. The fact that they were men is hardly surprising given the very different attitudes that existed at the time could you really expect unaccompanied women to attend? And given they would be there with their family or husband do you think they would be allowed to stand up at a public meeting? We are talking about a time where even in what we consider to be our liberal old 'blighty' women were expected to be seen and not heard. It was not until 1870 that women in this country were legally allowed to keep any money they had earned !! Bear in mind also that women have only had the right to vote in this country for less than a hundred years and we are talking about Panjab over 300 years ago. It is amazing to think how recently the western concept of gender equality came into being (women get equal voting rights in England in 1928) whereas Guru Nanak Dev Ji was sponsoring women's equality 500 years ago! Sikhi preaches equality and equality is what we should have, there are those within our community that practise a version of casteism that is not to say that Sikhs believe in caste, it is simply people who consider themselves to be Sikh that are following un-Sikh practices. In the same way in practical term's those of us who have grown up in Panjabi households will be aware that often that gender equality doesn't exist however you may not lay the blame for that situation at the door of the Sikh faith, the instructions are there if you follow them you shall reap the benefits and if not then that's your choice. As stated in the beginning of this post it is correct that no women did stand on that historical day but that is no reason at all to say women should not take part in the Amrit ceremony today. It is totally in line with Guruji's teachings that women should not be discriminated against on any grounds. Simply, if a women can receive amrit she should also be able to administer it for once it is taken are we all not one? Don't forget that Guruji received amrit himself after administering it in order to exemplify the total equality it provided. Gur Fateh Sukhbir Singh

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh First of all, I can only concur with other posters that the site you took this information from is very questionable indeed and its bias and motive wholly apparent. Further let us see what our Guru has to say on the subject of Akaal's incarnation and the perceived wisdom of the Vedas. "My Master is eternal. He is seen by practising the Word of the Shabad. He never perishes; He does not come or go in reincarnation. So serve Him, forever and ever; He is contained in all. Why serve another who is born, and then dies? Fruitless is the life of those who do not know their Lord and Master, and who centre their consciousness on others. O Nanak, it cannot be known, how much punishment the Creator shall inflict on them." || 1 || (Page 509) "Many Shashtras and many Simirtis have I seen and searched them all. Nanak, they equal not Lord God's invaluable Name." ( Page 265) It is not my aim to ridicule the scriptures of any faith regardless of my personal opinion of their worth it serves no purpose and consequently does me no good. However when someone else deems it appropriate to misrepresent my faith with the use of bogus references then it is entirely correct that I should question the integrity of the source, below are a few well known examples that question the integrity, translation, interpretation and accuracy of that source. In Hinduism the NARASINGA PURANA, Page 169 : Abithana Sinthamani, the Vedas and `holy' Puranas claim that the Earth is flat. Today it has been proven beyond a doubt by the scientists that the Earth is round. Yet their are those who amazingly differ and to prove their point have gone to the expense of setting up a `Jambudvipa Institute' in Gujarat which tries to `prove' the Vedic flat Earth theory ! The VISHNU PURANA says that sun is 800,000 miles and moon is 2,200,000 miles away from the Earth. Astronomy has now proved that the moon is nearer to the Earth, i.e. 240,000 miles and that the sun is 93,000,000 miles away from the Earth. Of course it is the prerogative of the individual as to what one wishes to believe. But the wider and more fundamental question must be why is their such a rabid and concerted effort to claim Sikhi and thus Sikhs under the Hindu banner? To understand the answer to this question is to understand why this information and these sort's of sites float around on the web misinforming, misleading and confusing. I am yet to meet a Sikh who feel's that Hindus should regard themselves as Sikhs surely this is two way traffic? If our Gurus were various incarnations of hindu gods then why not follow their teachings and become Sikhs? If not then why not allow us to follow our faith of choice as you follow yours without the constant push to assimilation. Of course the hindu rashtra that is india cannot allow this, you see whilst we consider ourselves different we are perceived as a threat. It really is that simple just good old fashioned massively destructive FEAR. Gur Fateh Sukhbir Singh

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh, Going around in circles is exactly what you have been doing in response to any and all questions, from anyone, regarding your site As far as discrediting your site is concerned it seems to me and the majority of posters on this thread that you have done a fair job of that yourselves firstly by the content of the site itself and secondly by adding insult to injury through your inability or reluctance to answer direct questions. Do you think it is coincidence that recent (GOI) propaganda whether overt or covert is often indistinguishable from the content's of your site? As to whether it does me credit or not is yet again a question of opinion, yours. Evidently your and my definition of entertainment varies greatly. I must admit there is some amusement in awaiting a new version of your standard 'no information response' but royal variety it ain't. Sorry if you would rather I was doing something else but I am not here to accommodate you. My concern is your site and its 'raision d' etre'. As I have said before (many times) most of your comments on the site are expressions of your own personal bias or furtherance of your own agenda and not based on any scripture or historical references at all. As an example look at some of the reply's you have made on this thread alone. The majority of your statements are not founded in any scriptural or historical reference whatsoever. There is but one Sikh nation the same one that was created in1699 by the tenth Nanak Guru Gobind Singh jee. As opposed to your claim that "Though Akali Nihangs do not speak of themselves as ‘Hindu’, they do see themselves of the Hindu Indian nation" I personally would disagree that Akali Nihangs would align themselves with the idea of a hindu nation in the first place. But since you clearly do it is worthwhile mentioning that the 'hindu nation' does not and never has existed other than in the fevered imaginations of indias history revisionists. (and of course yours) Abraham Eraly's perspective on the fragile nature of India makes compelling reading. "The Republic of India is... today only a union of nations, not a nation-state. Nor has India ever been a nation-state in its long history, because we have never had the basic elements -- common history, religion, language, culture and ethnicity -- essential to forge national unity. In fact, India has no stronger basis for national unity than Europe has -- it has less basis, really, because of its greater diversity ... It is today politically fashionable to speak of a certain community and its culture as truly Indian, but the fact is that there are no pure native Indians, or any pure native Indian culture... All Indians today are descendants of migrants or invaders... The arrival of the British was not the catalyst that you seem to think it was. Since 'independence' we have seen organisations like the 'Sant nirankaris' whose very conception and patronage has been the work of the (GOI) with the sole aim of causing division and dissension. As I have mentioned to you before the issues such as meat are simply divisive serving to create conflict where none should exist. Self-proclaimed saints cannot create 'factions' as you put it since a faction is a amount of a whole and these people do not fall into that category. I cannot agree that confusion and disarray summarise the position of Sikh youth today, many parties may wish that this was the case and there is no respite in engineering exactly that situation. Thankfully the majority of Sikh youth that I know or whom I have met or whose comments I have read on this or many other site's lead me to believe otherwise, despite the concerted efforts of those who front sites and other media disseminating misinformation and lies there is still a substantial number of Sikh youth who by Gurujis grace will not waiver. For this to remain the case as well as to protect those more vulnerable we must be at all times, alert. I know my 'colours' and am neither ashamed nor afraid to fly them, they are my Guru's 'colours' and belong to no other. I know your 'colours' as well and the different meaning you to attach to them But that is again only YOUR opinion.Where is your evidence for the above claim? "I do not accept Ganesha as important. I do not meditate on Krishna, neither on Vishnu. I do not hear them and do not recognize them. My love is with the Lotus feet of God. He is my protector, the Supreme Lord. I am dust of his Lotus feet." (Guru Gobind Singh Ji ) (NB:Pls note answering the question......something your reply's and your site definitely lack) Yet again: The EVIDENCE used by Veerji were the quotes taken from your own website! You seem unable to realise that any criticism that I or any other Sikhs have made, is based almost without exception entirely on the information that you have pushed into the public domain yourselves. I assume that you are not known personally to anyone on this forum. It is not you that is objectionable but the 'information' you provide and the label's that you use. As far as fighting a case based on subjective views is concerned we are yet again looking at your now 'standard' reply. That anyone else's opinion is subjective whereas any comment made by yourself is entirely objective. This is not the case in any way, shape or form.Your own postings reveal bias, personal opinions and emotive responses much the same as any other. For fools read (those that don't agree with me.) Gur Fateh Sukhbir Singh P.S. Tili Gutti if you read Indy's post again you will see he wasn't the one who made the personal reference neither did he accuse any 'individual of cowardice contrast that against : (directed at indy) Also bear in mind although Indy's style maybe robust and confrontational he makes a very valid point, knowledge of shastar in itself is of little use, Guru Hargobind Singh Jee saw there was a need for the possession and knowledge of arms and it wasn't to prove one's superior Gatka skills at tournaments. "Sashtran ke adden hai raj, Raj bina nahi tharam chale hai, dharam din sab dale mare hai" (Without the use of power rule cannot be established, without rule, a religion cannot be practiced and without practicing religion nothing can go well). Satguru Gobind Singh ji

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh, Does it leave a lot to be questioned? Sounds suspiciously like your opinion. You go on to say " In order to save their own skins." Do you have evidence of this? Or is it again supposition on your part? Whoever was responsible for this 'act' is still debatable so you are in fact drawing your own conclusions, what many 'acts' are you referring too? And with reference to these 'acts' do you have evidence as to the responsible parties? You see the 'yardstick' that you apply swings both way, it is a obstructive and unconstructive method of debate and should only be used if one can apply it equally to oneself. Assuming that your upcoming site contains the same amount of generalisation's, distortions half truths and old indian propaganda as your previous efforts, I cannot say that I wait with baited breath Any evidence or opinion that is expressed that is contrary to your own is immediately denounced as 'subjective' you have a great fondness for the word but perhaps you should apply it to many of the comments on your site that are in reality nothing more. Whether I can 'choose' to visit your site or not is no longer relevant. We must act as a collective to challenge at every turn, any and all that discredit or harm the SIKH NATION. Furthermore It is imperative that we raise awareness as to the existence of covert propaganda something that has long been the forte of the (GOI). The use of (GOI) propaganda and misinformation in books, film and television is very well known and accepted so why are we surprised by their use of the 'Web'? In many ways it is, for their purposes, a far superior medium in that it appears completely anonymously. Posters can be invented as can site hosts so that we never really know who or what is controlling a particular site. Add to that the posts of 'genuine' posters and the appearance is one of impartiality and transparency. Their are a lot of kids out there who are having their minds and their beliefs played with at this time, it is that which concerns me most. Gur Fateh Sukhbir Singh _________________

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh, I disagree no point was missed the point is in fact very clear unlike your statement above, by using your measure to decide whether someone is a shaheed or not would mean that no one could ever be classified as such. Baba Deep Singh, Bhai Manni Singh even Guru Teg Bahadur ji could not be classed as a shaheed according to your reasoning! Of course it is Akaal Purakh that is the ultimate judge of all our actions but to adopt this stance in order to negate recognising someone as shaheed is just another example of your consistent and unconstructive deflection of all questions. Before you reply to this point No doubt you will want "historical facts and quotes from scriptures" another deflecting tactic which is being used by yourself to the point of being tedious. If that is the case then answer me this could any mortal possess any such historical or scriptural evidence from Akaal purakh Waheguru to validate anyone's Shaheedi? Or is it simply a matter of whom you consider worthy or not? As far as using such a loaded term as 'luring', the insinuation is that he attracted people under false pretences, is this a matter of opinion? Or do you have evidence? Again conjecture on your part you do not know who was responsible for that attack although the evidence thus far and on the balance of reasoning points not at the organisation above but the (GOI). Firstly ask yourself this how could the Sikhs possibly benefit? Secondly how beneficial was it to india?You cite political correctness as the reasoning that in your words "prevents them from speaking the truth and being direct about it" again that is nothing more than your opinion, firstly as to why or if Sikhs are not speaking the truth and secondly it is only your assumption as to what the truth (there supposedly avoiding speaking about) is. The UN and AI as well as the UK government have made their decision based on information from the (GOI) so that is naturally very accurate and impartial !! Strangely enough no neo-fascist hindu organisations of which there are many and whom have recently been the subject of a channel 4 documentary have been so categorised by the (GOI). Incidentally the documentary followed fund raising in the UK being directed to groups in Gujarat that have been implicated in the Muslim pogroms in the state. The evidence used by Veerji were the quotes taken from your own website! You seem unable to realise that any criticism that I or any other Sikhs have made, is based almost without exception entirely on the information that you have pushed into the public domain yourselves. I assume that you are not known personally to anyone on this forum. It is not you that is objectionable but the 'information' you provide and the label's that you use. As far as fighting a case based on subjective views is concerned we are yet again looking at your now 'standard' reply. That anyone else's opinion is subjective whereas any comment made by yourself is entirely objective. This is not the case in any way, shape or form.Your own postings reveal bias, personal opinions and emotive responses much the same as any other. Veerji will not be requiring luck since he has right on his side, is this my opinion? Yes, but Im not afraid to say it is, or mislead by saying it is a statement of fact. Yet again we hear " we provide historical facts and quotes from scriptures" not for a great deal of what you say you don't and that for which you do is often a question of interpretation and context. As far as the historical references many of your comments could have been taken from the 'Indian government history book of half truth's and misrepresentation'. Again I would ask you to look at oneself before pointing the finger. Another request would be to have the courtesy to read the post or the good sense to comprehend it. The discussion which led to your reply was begun by Veerji with a number of quotes taken directly from your site they were presented and then he commented on them. So he does not qualify as one of the people who"..simply base their discussions on personal views and emotional outbursts such as those you have mentioned." as you contend. N/A. You have in one of your posts likened yourself to a broken record, your words not mine and I would agree that this analogy is a fairly accurate one. I still have the now 'standard' response that you sent to me, it differs very little from this one. By the way you never replied to my retort. I suppose you would direct me to your 'standard' response anyway. The concrete evidence was of your own making it was lifted from your site, as to your accusation of Veerji not reading the site we are again only discussing your opinion. Someone reads your site and has objections your conclusion is that they never actually read the site in the first place!! To extrapolate that then, if someone reads your site and has no objections they are thought to have in your opinion 'read' the site. The implication being then that if you have objections you must continue to read the site until you do not, only then will you have 'read' the site !! What a novel approach I shall apply this method to the KKK site and who knows I might find myself agreeing with white supremacists. Gur Fateh _______________ For fools read (those that don't agree with me.)

Gur Fateh Singh Khalsa, Good article...everyone in the know, knows exactly who was behind that bombing and why. As the article points out, it had it's desired effect. This sort of strategy is indias forte and is still enthusiastically used. Remember Chittisangpora? What was it that Nehru used to say...? For the family sacrifice the indiviual for the community sacrifice the family and for the country sacrifice the community....utter bas**rd Gur Fateh Sukhbir Singh

More sites, more claims. Ask yourselves why? The extract below should send you in the right direction. ...After Buddhism rose to ascendancy in India, the brahmins (Hindu priests) worked for its elimination through massacres of monks, conversion of Buddhist meditation centres into temples, claiming that Buddha was an incarnation of the god Vishnu with the implication that to revere Buddha one must also revere Vishnu, adoption of some of its teachings such as vegetarianism (unknown to the Hindus who composed the Rig Veda which mentions the sacrifices and eating of horses), and corruption of its techniques such as tantra. Similar patterns may be seen today with regard to the Sikhs. Attacks on Golden Temple, genocide of Sikhs, targeting of amridharis, creation of myth of Dusht Daman and Hemkunt Sahib (the alleged Hindu rishi who was reborn as Guru Gobind Singh), adoption of principles such as the removal of caste restrictions and, in particular, langar the Sikh communal kitchen, and continual claim that Sikhs are hair-keeping Hindus established to protect Hinduism from Islam through military means which is a distortion of the purpose of the revelation of Khalsa as vanguard of new world order (Akaal Purkh Ki Fauj). At best, the Sikh may be an individual seeker for escape from the world or mukti in which case Khalsa is interpreted as ‘pure’ – Khalis. This, of course, destroys the raj of the Khalsa, the world-transformation which is integral to the Sikh unity of Meeri-Peeri, universal spirituality and spiritual revolution. The present attacks on the Sikh faith shed light on the elimination of Buddhism from Indian soil, and equally the history of Buddhism provides a warning to Sikhs about the techniques which may be marshalled against them. The destruction of Buddhism in India means that many of the obvious and interesting parallels such as use of terms like “sunnya” (the Void), “nirvana”, “nau nidhs” (nine jewels) have not been explored by the Sikh scholars whose lens are coloured by the jaundiced eye in which the Dhamma was misrepresented in India. There may be even more not so obvious parallels. For instance verses of Gurbani state, “The responsibility of humankind is to walk along the Royal Road of the Law – this message is sent with His sacred horse and proclaimed as the Guru’s Word by beat of drum” (Guru Granth Sahib Ji: 142)...... Dr Kanwar Ranvir Singh

> Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh, > > I only received notice from 'admin bhaji' today that this thread was > actually running. It had moved since my posting and I had thought It may > have been removed. So apologies for not being able to respond to some of the > points raised. Since I have only seen the replies today I will try and > answer some of the criticisms systematically. > First off I have copied Harps reply (quotation) and will make my > comments in answer to > specific points raised. > > Gur Fateh > > Sukhbir Singh It was with the intention of receiving clarification that prompted my mail. Yes. Thank you. The greatest threat that the Sikh nation as a whole faces at the moment is the complete absorption into Hinduism (read as a faith or the modern indian state) It does not take prophetic abilities to see the inevitable destination of the 'saffronisation' of india. I am sorry but your honest opinion is incorrect, this is not based on any notion that my opinion is superior than your own but on basic historical principles. The threat to the Sikh nation from the 'saffronisation' of india cannot be overstated, Sikhism faces the same threat that has been faced by a number of other faiths and nations from the beginning of time namely subjugation and assimilation. What we see in india today is the ugly face of majoritarianism, the fact that the ruling party at this time is the BJP a umbrella organisation encompassing the likes of the 'Shiv Sena', 'RSS', 'bajrang dal' amongst other ultra right wing organisations is a clear indication of the mood of that country at this time. You talk of the ignorance of British youth but you must understand that ignorance is a temporary state that can be likened in this case to a moral or spiritual sleep. The issue is not if they rise from slumber but when and once aware what information will be available to them in order to understand who they are. The (GOI) is at this time in a process of historical revision, it has only one purpose to, (in the Panjabi Vernacular) "JAAR PATT" which basically means to remove one's roots, in this case the roots of a nation I can do no better but to quote Milan Kundera. "The first step in liquidating a people is to erase its memory. Destroy its books, its culture, its history. Then have somebody write new books, manufacture a new culture, invent a new history. Before long that nation will begin to forget what it is and what it was... The struggle of man against power is the struggle of memory against forgetting." The sacrifice that 'our' parents made in leaving behind their homeland to come to what was for them a alien and hostile land must be appreciated. We have access to greater learning resources as well as the benefits of a structured education and most importantly we have been fortunate to grow up in a liberal democracy that has allowed us to practice our faith. Strange that the country which we are supposed to regard as our own does not even recognise our faith as distinct from hinduism in its constitution whereas here in Britain we are on the brink of being classed as a unique and separate ethnic group, bear in mind to be classed as such is beyond having a distinct religion (this we are already regarded as having) but a separate ethnic group...that's a people.. that's a nation! It also explains why the (GOI) is not keen on the British allowing this classification. In many ways the Sikh diaspora is a thorn in the side of those who wish to liquidate the Sikh identity, the (GOI) may be able to change the indian history books but we can counter their efforts with the truth. You are truly blessed I would describe my upbringing similarily. Being a Sikh is more than wearing a badge agreed. But recognition of oneself is a beginning and the clarity that brings are the first steps towards finding the truth. To be amritdhari with all that entails is a VERY good reason to "pat yourself on the back" as you put it. Given the times in which we live it is easy to become cynical, we must try to avoid that. The meaning of Sikhi can never be watered down. Sikhi is totally accessible should we want it, this is the beauty of Sri Guru Granth Sahib. A teacher that can be in a million places at once, never contradicts itself or changes to suit the times, is beyond any of the worldly vices that can corrupt all living beings, the accumulated knowledge of great men close to the immortal god. What more do you need? I must say that this comment more than any other shows great ignorance on YOUR part. To think that the ongoing threat from the (GOI) is vague and nebulous is at best naive and at worst denial. There are far too many examples to list here with regards to indias very clear intentions of creating a wholly hindu nation with Sikhs welcome only if they deny any distinction from the fold. We are welcome in india but only as a offshoot of hinduism. Other minorities Dalits, Kashmiris, Christians, Nagas, Tamils, Oriyas, muslims to identify a few do not have this 'option' and in many ways that is their saving grace. We as a nation can withstand and repel a frontal attack but the "Kutil Nitti" (wicked strategy enunciated by Kautiliya in the 'Arth Shastra') used to subvert the Sikh religion and deplete its numerical strength is far more difficult for Sikhs as a nation to counter. As I said examples are too numerous to list but I shall give you simply one that well illustrates the future for us within india. As a example it is a effective one in that it clearly strikes at our very foundations, our youth, our future. Revised indian school textbooks doctored by the Central Board of Secondary Education (CBSE) do not even acknowledge, for instance, that Kashmir was a Sikh territory until the British annexed the KhalsaCommonwealth in 1849, or that Little Tibet was annexed by Sarkar-i-Khalsa,The Honourable Khalsa, as the name appears in the Treaty of 1842 with emperor of China and the Dalai Lama as the joint counter-party to the Sikhs. Their recently revised CBSE textbooks, which have been translated in dozens of languages, slander the Tenth Nanak, (Guru Gobind Singh Jee) calling him an employee in the court of Bahadur Shah. This is but one small example however..."the hand that rocks the cradle ......." You were lucky enough to have parents who in your words made a conscious effort to teach you about your faith but how would you feel if your children were being brought up in a country that slandered that very faith? (Guru Gobind Singh) taken from : http://allaboutsikhs.com/gurus/gurugobind5.htm Yes this is the Gurus quote and it is exactly the point I am making there is a real and determined effort to remove that distinctiveness and it is that which is our greatest threat. This is a ridiculous notion that is akin to the man who lets his house burn because it required some repairs, those that can must fight now otherwise the message received by those future searchers of truth will not be the message of Nanak. You are again either naive or blind, fringe loonies? Are you talking about the ruling party of india? I would hardly call the government of the day a fringe, the same party that won so convincingly in Gujrat on a purely hindu supremacist ticket following the anti-muslim pogroms. The same government that rose to power on the back of the Babri masjid destruction. If you think for a second as a distinct Sikh you have more intrinsic value in india than a Muslim, think again. Tell me do you think Advani is a fringe loony or a government minister?How do you explain the patronage afforded the nirankaris by successive indian governments? The line betwixt the external and internal is becoming ever more frayed such is the level of subversion. Agreed, but the faith is essentially a simple one that does not require the agonising that some parties suggest. Sikhism was not created in a vacuum, nothing is, the fact that Guru Nanak both read and contemplated the Vedas, smritis, shastars and yet denounced them as a means of salvation speaks volumes. Hinduism professes that the Vedas are divine although the scriptures are the source of the Varna system that espouses the artificial division of mankind. Hinduism could be said tobe the only religion in the world that preaches inequality as a matter of doctrine. Our Gurus also considered the Koran as worthy of study and the Sikh faith owes its conception as much to Islam as it does to hinduism although it is distinct from either. Although this is not reflected either by you or the site. Using the very term 'Khalistani terrorism' is very small minded indeed. It is a blanket description that defies any understanding of the facts or dynamics of that situation. It was a term coined by the (GOI) as was 'Khalistan' in order to defame a genuine movement that was created as a result of (GOI) meddling in state and religious politics by using communalism as a means of control. You clearly lack the requisite understanding necessary to appreciate how this sort of terminology belittles and belies the truth of a situation. Firstly define for me a 'terrorist' many seem to have a fondness for the label, what does it mean exactly? Who is it that decides who is a terrorist? To the British Udham Singh was a terrorist and now he is a indian hero with motion pictures to recount his fame. The Boston tea party, a very important event in American history and the beginnings of that country's route to independence from Britain would have been said in today's terms to have been a terrorist gathering, Guru Gobind Singh Jee would have been a terrorist to the Mogul empire, if alive today Jesus and his apostles would have been vilified as terrorists by the Roman state as it was he was a traitor because that was the popular term of the day as popular as 'terrorist' is today. Before commenting understand what you are talking about it is very, very important. This was never a issue in my posting although I am happy to go into length as to the relative 'cleanliness of hands' my objection was to find such a useless, derogatory and loaded term as 'khalistani terrorist' on a site that purports to provide knowledge about Sikhism. There is a huge leap between the intolerance and discrimination of a individual and the concerted, illegal , discrimination of a state against its minorities. You are incorrectly talking about fringe loonies, the truth of the matter is, they are the state government. It was not fringe loonies that perpetrated blue star and black thunder, they were not fringe loonies that led the anti-sikh pogroms in delhi, they were not fringe loonies that orchestrated the gujarat massacre's and so on and so forth. Again I believe your lack of perspective lets you down. Imagine this, is the killing of a German by a Jew in nazi Germany the same as the holocaust? Remember we are not talking about numbers we are talking about whether or not there is a systematic and institutional method of repression and discrimination that includes the government, enforcement agencies, media and judiciary. In the case of the Sikhs, no there is not. In the case of the government of india..ABSOLOUTELY I suppose your use of the word 'reeks' suggests impartiality on your part? Although you apply it to me as well as the site it is no less subjective. You are quite brazen in your own bias of that be in doubt. What I do not understand is why would the shastarvidiya site "sometimes reek of bias" as you state. Does it change from time to time? My comments were purely based on the site I was not aware of any forum etc.. So is it your opinion that changes, as to the amount of bias on the site?? The world is not black and white it is in fact a multitude of colours but there is right and wrong and sometimes you have to see that. Our Gurus taught us that we must have the courage of our convictions even in the face of hostility. Sitting on the fence is not a admirable trait nor is it true that 2+2=5 any amount of comparative reasoning will not make it so. Something's are simply right and some are simply wrong you need to know that but more importantly you need to believe it. You are simply wrong in your assertion as I have repeated many times in this post we deny this threat at our own peril there are those that can't see but they are not as dangerous as those that won't see. The poor spelling is more immediately frustrating than the poor structure it just makes your post at time's unintelligible. As for causing me any offence, calling me 'lad' could be viewed as somewhat patronising, its an expression I am familiar with and is usually used to denote a young boy. I do not know whether this is intentional on your part so it's fine by me. One point I would like to make though is that I was thirteen years old when the BBC were beaming television pictures of the Harmandir Sahib causeways covered in blood accompanied by the wailing of Sikh women who had lost their husbands, children, father's, mothers. I was only a few months older when new images of young Sikh children who had suffered the torture of having a bicycle tyre put around their neck before being dowsed in petrol and set alight so that the burning rubber could not leave the flesh no matter the amount of water poured upon it. The television at that time was ablaze with Sikh men who had their beards and hair hacked off whilst being held down by the 'mob' Sikh girls whose clothes had been torn from their bodies walked dazed occasionally catching the attention of the camera. I remember the interviewer asking a member of the mob when would this stop and the reply from a little indian man " we will never stop, they will pay, they have killed our mother" I was thirteen then so that makes you what? About 7 years old at the time, is that right LAD? _________________ As is waking up. Gur Fateh. Sukhbir Singh

Looked at the shastarvaidya website today and sent them a mail just wanted to post it on here because I had never heard of the site until I saw it mentioned on here....ALL I WANT TO SAY IS KEEP YOUR MINDS OPEN, BUT DON'T CLOSE YOUR EYES! Website creators, Have looked at your website and some things are very questionable, whatever your intentions maybe you are further muddying the waters for those who are simply trying to learn more about their faith. You talk of the truth yet you hide more than you reveal. No group or part is more important than the whole. You talk of Udasis and Nirmalas, Nihangs etc. This simply pushes us back into a system of castes where some are considered warriors, intellectuals etc. The point is that all beings have the capacity to be all of these, is this not the reasoning that inspired the creation of the Khalsa? Of course the Nihangs are, have been and continue to be a integral part of the Sikh nation and the present situation with regards to the SGPC is not a good one but your effort is misplaced. The greatest threat that the Sikh nation as a whole faces at the moment is the complete absorption into Hinduism (read as a faith or the modern indian state) It does not take prophetic abilities to see the inevitable destination of the 'saffronisation' of india. Sikhism is a universal faith it cannot be held to be only specific to one geographic area. You refer many times to hindu mythology and its place within Sri Dasam Granth Sahib serving only to further the ends of those who simply wish to resign Sikh's to a sect of Hindus. You write that it is the truth but you deny the greater and greatest truth's of our faith firstly that there is but one immortal formless God, secondly as Sikhs we accept the Guru Granth Sahib as our living Guru as declared by the tenth Nanak. You heretically refer at one point to the Guru Granth Sahib as simply a spiritual text going on to imply that this is it's short coming!! Further that the Sri Dasam granth helps us in the real world, this again is not the truth. Should we not accept the command of our Guru that after him Sri Guru Granth Sahib alone is our Guru and means of our salvation then we are not Sikhs. Guru Gobind Singh was a prolific writer and as you will be aware many of his texts have been lost to us forever but he did not bestow Guruship to any other than Sri Guru Granth Sahib and to denigrate it is apostasy. Your intentions become more suspect when you refer to the Khalistani movement as a 'terrorist movement' in its entirety. To even talk in terms of 'Khalistani terrorism' reveals you to be 'stooges' either in ignorance or by design. The situation that has developed with regard to the Sikh nation following the creation of an entirely artificial indian nation state is a very complex one that reveals indian state terrorism levied against the Sikh nation in many forms. The cyber revolution and its capacity as a medium to either inform in order to strengthen or misinform to further weaken the Sikh's is something that has not been lost on the (GOI). You talk of the British Raj and its negative impact's on the traditions of Sikhism. Yes but the British in many ways served to place the Sikhs on the international platform, they were inspired by self interest of that there is no doubt. But the recognition of Sikhs as worldclass soldiers, brave and unyielding as a result of their actions in the world wars is something which obviously would not have been the case had it not been for the raj. Contrast that to the (GOI) record of defamation at every turn of the Sikhs as terrorists, criminals etc.etc. this process continues unabated just take a look at any 'bollywood' movie and you will see a Sikhs portrayed as impotent, comedic character's lacking courage,integrity or intelligence. No one can say the Raj was a good thing on the contrary the Sikhs lost their sovereignty to a huge social experiment namely the nation state of india. Meat eating is something I do not find offensive in the least again it is simply divisive in further fragmentation. Look at any website and you will see the question "can Sikhs eat meat" invariably posted by someone who has very obviously their own agenda. (Just look at the list of other questions in their post history, you will find "are Sikhs hindus?", "why do Sikhs hate hindus?" etc.) I have always felt it is of little importance in Sikhism whether someone chooses to eat meat or not other than it should not be ritually killed (chatka is not ritual killing it is simply the most effective and humane system of slaughter) On that point do you agree that Sikhs should hold no qualms about eating beef? Further why is your opening shot on the site one of the severed head of a billy? Rather a cheap way to court controversy don't you think? I think the final pointer as to your conception and thus your intention is the reference to the Nirankaris as a schismatic sect of Sikhs. They are not a sect, of Sikhs or otherwise they are a political creation whose design was to provoke a response from the Sikh community in order to further political ends. You call yourselves Nihangs but you refer to those who openly defiled the Sikh Guru as a 'schismatic sect' ???? As a summary you talk of Sikhs and Hindus in the same breath, you continually and incorrectly limit Sikhism and thus Sikhs as indian, you talk of Sri Guru Granth Sahib jee as a wholly spiritual text, you refer to the movement for Sikh autonomy as a entirely terrorist movement, you talk of and propagate the idea of various castes of Sikhs, you refer to the naraktharis as a sect of Sikhism, you belittle the shaheed's of 1978 as simply a catalyst for the 'terrorist' movement, you refer to the British Raj and its impact on Sikhism but you speak nothing of the plight of the Sikhs since 'independence' or at this time within india. Set against the truth of pure steel you seem thinly veiled. Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh. Sukhbir Singh