shaheediyan

The artistic and stategic thought behind the Padma vyuha or lotus formation is really amazing... Military History Of Ancient India By Gorkhali, 2006; Revised Category: South and Southeast Asia: Military History The Persians are famed for their archers, the Turks for their horsemen, and India for its armies. - Arab proverb India is one of the oldest civilizations on earth, going back more than 7,000 years. Although divided from the rest of Asia by the Himalayan mountains, India has for most of its history been fighting numerous and violent wars among itself. During its long history, there could be anywhere from 16 to more than a hundred kingdoms, all fighting each other, making and breaking alliances. In the harsh deserts to the northwest were the fierce Rajput (literally sons of kings) kingdoms, who fought on horseback and camelback. In central India were mighty kingdoms descended from the Aryan invaders who invaded India around 1500 BC. In the jungles to the south were other large and formidable kingdoms, more ancient than the Aryan ones, the original inhabitants of India. In the Deccan Plateau, where the Kingdoms of the north and the south met, were other smaller nations, but with some of the fiercest fighters on the subcontinent. To the east were the kingdoms of Bengal and Assam, to the north was the feared kingdom of Nepal. Warfare in ancient India centered around the chariot. Indian chariots were nothing like the light, sleek chariots of Egypt. They were massive, made of wood and iron, and intricately decorated in gold. They had four wheels, and typically held two men-the charioteer, and an archer who also had a weapon for hand to hand combat. This archer, standing on the chariot, would be a good six or more feet off the ground, giving him a significant advantage over enemy infantry. Some chariots held more men, the largest could hold seven men. Indian chariots were so large and heavy that they required four to six horses to pull them. Unlike Egyptian chariots, which moved quickly and fired arrows into the enemy ranks, Indian chariots often charged right into melee battle. They crushed enemy soldiers under their wheels, trampled them under the horses, all while the soldier(s) on the chariot fired arrows into them, or fought it out hand to hand. No description of India’s ancient military is complete without mentioning the elephant. India was the first nation to use the elephant in battle (~1500BC) and the last nation to stop using it in battle (1800’s AD). Wars were frequently fought over territories that had a great deal of elephants. Elephants from the tip of south India and Sri Lanka were the most prized as they were considered the fiercest in battle. Often times, a king’s wealth was measured in how many elephants he owned. A single Indian prince might own more elephants than all of Carthage. According to Kautilya, the army of the Indian emperor Chandragupta Maurya had more than 21,000 elephants. War elephants typically were heavily armored. They had a castle like structure on their back where several warriors and a mahout, who guided the elephant, would be housed. The number of warriors varied anywhere from one to six warriors, and would be armed with an arsenal of weapons, bows and arrows, long lances, javelins, tridents, and a variety of polearms. The elephants themselves had long daggers or swords, sometimes several feet long, attached to their tusks. The way in elephants were used in battle varied widely as well. One common tactic, used by Porus at the Hydaspes, was to place the elephants a distance apart, anywhere from 40 to 100 feet. These elephants would act like mobile fortresses, where the rest of the army could rally around. Another common tactic, probably the most dangerous and effective one, was to use the elephants to directly assault enemy lines. The elephants would be arranged in a wall formation, and be heavily armored in iron or steel from head to foot. Long steel swords, often coated with poison, would be attached to their tusks. The mahouts would then drive them forward in a coordinated charge, wreaking havoc in enemy ranks. Archers or lancers on top of the elephants would pick off enemy soldiers as well. One king even went as far as to train his elephants to swing heavy iron balls on chains with their trunks. The very sight of a wall of heavily armored elephants charging, whirling huge iron balls with their trunks, their tusks tipped with poisoned swords, the soldiers on the elephant wielding enormous lances, would often cause the enemy to break ranks and flee. The cavalry of Indian armies is, for the most part, not noteworthy. The cavalry of the Middle Eastern and Arab armies were probably superior. There are exceptions though. The Rajput cavalry was extremely skilled, and man for man, was more than a match for the Mughal cavalry, as they proved several times. They were lightly armored, and moved extremely swiftly. Armed with a light curved sword and a small circular shield, they could charge and fight with incredible speed. Many carried bows and arrows, and were expert archers. The Rajput army was almost entirely composed of cavalry, and were powerful enough that they were able to keep the Muslim forces in check for many years. In the other armies of India cavalry were also used, sometimes in large numbers, but rarely were they equipped with bows and arrows. Their role was either to protect the elephants and chariots, or to charge into melee battle. The bulk of the Indian army, and most other armies in the world, were the infantry, or foot soldiers. The infantry were equipped with a huge variety of weapons, which differed hugely across India. Probably the most common weapon was the sword, but even this came in hundreds of shapes across India. Indian archers used a bow similar to the English longbow, in that it was as tall as the person using it. However, Indian bows were also recurved. Armies in India were typically larger than those of Europe. It was common to see armies of hundreds of thousands fighting on the battlefield, even thought the kingdoms themselves might be small in size. As infantry formed the majority of the army, a typical battle would look like a sea of infantry and cavalry fighting, while the chariots and elephants stood out. India was one of the first nations to implement tactics, divisions, and formations. Armies did not simply rush out onto the battlefield; there were commanders who carefully put their massive armies in intricate formations. Some formations were: Chakra (wheel) Vyuha, Suchi (needle) Vyuha, Chayana (hawk) Vyuha and Mala (garland), and Garuda (eagle). Another one I read about recently was the lotus formation, where the archers would be on the inside, and the infantry and cavalry would be arranged like a lotus flower, protecting them. Their armor differed greatly as well. Some kingdoms, especially in south India wore no armor, because of the extreme heat. Others wore tough sturdy armor, made of interlocking iron, steel, and leather plates. Many warriors wore no armor, but instead wore silk clothing. This actually worked to block arrows, which couldn’t penetrate the silk fibers. Ancient India has been home to many unique weapons. The world’s first all steel bow was made in India. Some other weapons from the subcontinent are the famous kukri knife, the tiger claw weapon used by assassins, tridents, the long handled mace, swords, axes, and spears of all shapes and sizes. The Army of The Mauryan Empire The Mauryan empire was the first empire that managed to unite all of India. This was partially because of their complex army structure. Like most ancient Indian armies, the Mauryan army had 4 types of troops- elephant (gaja), chariot (ratha), cavalry (turanga), and infantry (pada). The army was broken into many units. The smallest unit was called a patti, and had 1 chariot, 1 elephant, 3 cavalry and 5 infantry. The elephant and chariot would typically be in the center with the cavalry and infantry surrounding them. Three patti made up a Sena mukha, and three Sena Mukha made up a Gulma. Other divisions were the Gana, Vahini, Pratana, Camu and Ani kini, each of which was three times as big as the one preceding it. The Aksauhini was composed of ten Ani kini, and was the largest unit in an army. The Mauryan army had multiple Aksauhini's. The standing army had three-quarter million troops, one of the largest armies in the world at the time. A variety of formations were used in the Mauryan army. Formations were known as vyuha, each one had a center, two flanks and two wings. There were thirty main vyuha used, divided into four main categories. One example of a vyuha would be the Padma vyuha or lotus formation. It would be easy to visualise the 'padma vyuha' if it is imagined as a six pointed star. The Deputy Commanders-in-Chief would be placed at each outer point of the petals and at the inner end, where each end of lotus petal joins with the other, to form an inner-circle resembling the corolla of the lotus, the Commanders-in-Chief would be stationed. The space between any two 'petals' is the only access to reach the centre of the 'lotus' where the Supreme Commander was placed. If a contingent of enemy soldiers moved between any two petals for this purpose, the petals would close in and crush the invader like the powerful tentacles of a crab. The Garuda Vyuha or Eagle formation was another commonly used formation. The Garuda Vyuha had a 'beak' where the best elite Kshatriya soldiers would be placed in tight wedge formation. The 'head,' behind the beak had a small contigent of reserves, also of good quality. Often, war elephants would be placed in the beak and head. Two broad 'wings' would sweep out behind the head, with the swiftest troops - the chariots and cavalry at the outside. Behind the wings, the body, would consist of reserves. Some other formations: Suchi vyuha - Needle formation Chayana vyuha - Hawk formation Mala vyuha - Garland formation Karuncha vyuha - Heron formation Makara vyuha - Fish formation Padma vyuha - Lotus formation Kurma vyuha - Turtle formation Trishula vyuha - Trident formation Chakra vyuha - Wheel or Discus formation Garuda vyuha - Eagle formation The Mauryan army was composed of people all over the subcontinent. In addition, Chandragupta Maurya did not discriminate against different castes, as he was of low caste himself (reputedly he was the son of a peacock tamer ). As a result, there were soldiers in his army from all castes, making the army very diverse. The core of the army was composed of Uttarapathian warriors, from central and western India. Uttarapatha had many militaristic peoples – like the Kambojas, Yavanas, Sakas and Vardas. Other peoples in the Mauryan army were the Maghadas, Assamese, and Cheras. Even the Nagas (literally serpents, because they worshiped cobras), a mystical people to the east, were incorporated into the army.

bbbb INDIAN TERMS AT A GLANCE Akharas Temples or gyms. Bandesh Bandesh is an ancient Indian martial art. The principle tenant is to defeat an armed enemy without killing him. It uses various joint-locks. They practice with weapons and keep the same principle. Many matches are fought with weapons and the one who wins is the one to disarms the other. Bethak Squats. Binot Binot is an ancient Indian martial art. It is a weaponless fighting wrestling techniques against armed and unarmed attackers. It is very difficult to learn and dangerous to practice. Some say it is the oldest type of combat. Bothati Bothati is an Indian Horseback spear fighting art. Cheibi A Cheibi is a stick encased in leather and about 2.5 ft long. Cheibi Gad Ga Cheibi Gad Ga is an Indian art that is one of the oldest Manipur arts that has evolved in to a competitive art in modern times. It uses a Cheibi which is a stick encased in leather and about 2.5 ft long. They use that in combination with a leather shield that is 3 ft in diameter. Dand Push ups. Fari Gatka Fari Gatka is an Indian fencing art centered arounds fari (shields) and gatka (swords). Gatka is a 3 foot, leather-covered stick used to practice sword fighting. Fari is 9 inches in diameter, is also leather bound. To score points, the stick must touch a vital point of the opponent's body. Gada Swinging weighted ball and mace. Gatka Gatka is commonly mistaken for a stick fighting art from Punjab (North West India). It developed in the 17th century and practiced by the sikhs to defend themselves against invaders. It is based on a single movement called the "Panthra." Initially, it is practiced for hours without weapons to develop the necessary footwork skills needed when wielding a weapon. The art teaches to fight many enemies at the same time and also to fight on horseback. You learn to be efficient with wither hand. It also involves meditation. To start you meditate for 11-31 minutes and this is to warm up the body and mind of the student. Gurukal Master. Indian Wrestling Indian wrestling (a.k.a. "Pahalwani" and "Mallavidya") has been around since around 11 AD. It is highly integrated with Hinduism so one achieves self discipline and purity of the body, mind and spirit. Indian wrestlers are well known for their flexibility and power. They do a heavy regiment of yogi (stretching postures), bethak (squats), dand (push ups), jori (swinging weighted wooden clubs), gada (swinging weighted ball and mace), and body massages. Jori Swinging weighted wooden clubs. Kalari Batlefield or place. Kalari Payattu Kalari Payattu is an ancient Indian art that uses weapons and strikes. The strikes are focused on precision strikes like having hte edge of the palm strike a point ot paralyze a person. They also use a 'S' shaped stick that is used to strike the nervous system. Kalaripayit Kalaripayit is a very ancient martial art from India that is similar to Jiu Jitsu. The art offers training in striking, grappling, weapons and more to make it a complete art. Training includes rigorous exercise, forms, and sparring. There are 2 styles, northern and southern. You learn unarmed techniques, stick fighting, other weapons, and secret striking of vital-points. Kettukari Long Stick. Kirpan Sword. Kuruvadi Short stick. Lathi Lathi is an Indian martial art centered around a cane or bamboo staff about 5 feet in length. Mallavidya See Indian Wrestling. Marma Adi Secret techniques of striking vital points in India. Used in Kalaripayit. Musti Yudha Musti Yudha is an Indian art that means "Mukki boxing." This is a brutal form of bare hand fighting that doesn't include any kicking techniques. In battles, death is know to occurr. They are known for their hand training and a well trained boxer can crack a coconut with a blow. Otta Means wooden club. Pahalwani See Indian Wrestling. Panthra This is a single movement that Gatka is based on. Payit Practices. Sarit Sarak Sarit Sarak is an Indian art that emphasizes evasive skills and offensive attack. According to the local legend, The Dragon God, Lainingthou Pakhangba, ordered King Mungyamba to kill the demon Moydana oh Khagi and taught him these techniques and presented him with a special spear and sword for this purpose. Savasu Savasu is an Indian martial art. Silambam Silambam is an Indian art of staff fighting. In the Vedic age, young men were routinely trained to defend themselves with staffs and hte experts named their staffs. The Silambam techniques makes quick use of the swift and agile footwork that allows for precision and momentum strikes. A student will learn to deflect stones thrown by fellow practioners. Thang Ta Thang Ta is an Indian art that refers to using the sword or spear against one or more opponents. This art is directly related to Tantic practices and is practiced in 3 disinct ways. the 1st is ritual in nature, the 2nd is composed of a series of dances with the sword and spear while the 3rd is combat. This art is said to have a common origin as Sarit Sarak. Thoda Thoda is an Indian art that is the art of Archery and is a remnant of arts that were popular in Simla, sirmaur and Solan. The name comes from the circular wooden ball used to replace the arrowhead. Different size bows ranging from 3.5 feet to 6 feet. Vajra Musti Wrestling Vajra Musti wrestling is a form of wrestling from India where contestants face each other with claw daggers in one hand and using wrestling techniques. As you can imagine there were frequent fatal wounds so this form was banned. It can still be seen today at fairs for demonstration. Wagh Nakh Means Tiger's claw. It is a walking stick. Yogi Posture stretches.

Rupz Veer ji, yes it was a good event. The Saint Soldiers presentation wasn't presented to well, but the darbaar was set up beautifully. There was a big turn out and Nihang Ji did a shorter version of his presentation (1 hour as opposed to 2 hours in V&A), and it was predominantly in Punjabi, which made it slighly more "energetic"... and as insightful and educational as ever. There seemed to be many kids interested, and after his talk, Nihang Ji and his students kindly spent around another hour showing kids techniques and answering questions etc. Ustaad Surjit Singh Ji and Professor Surinder Singh Ji did a Sarangi juggalbandi (instrumental dialogue in raag), with Narinderjeet Singh on percussion. It was really cool. This was followed by a lecture by Professor Ji on how and nirdaareth raag relates to bani and wh it is so important, very passionate, educated and open/honest presentation as per usual. The Sikh saaj were also introduced to the sangat. The evening ended with Gurmat Kirtan performed by Prof Ji and around 7 senior students, utilising all historical used Sikh saaj; Rabab, Saranda, Jori, Sarangi, Taus, Dilruba and Tanpura. Kritan was passionate and beautiful as per usual. Sangat was very happy, as many of them saw 2 aspects of puratan Sikh tradition which was previously unknown to them. It was the first time I visited Guru Gobind Singh Khalsa College, and have to say the school and it's surroundings are very impressive, they seem to be trying hard to promote Sikh education, and I pray that they continue with their good work. Their organisational skills seem pretty good, and they seem to have educated representatives. After kirtan, langar was served and then interupted by some overly exited young boys who must have been told it would be a good idea to come in to the "langar" hall and deafen everyone with 4 dhols and spoil eveyones peaceful meal and polite conversation. Shame to end such an artistic and educational day with something on the opposite end of the spectrum (in my opinion)!

N3O Singh Ji, ADMIN; Namjap (anything but), is spoiling many threads on this forum by spreading his vile falsity, and this is also going to make your forum look extremely banal and offensive to visitors from other faith groups. Please ban him or delete the majority of his posts, most of which are fallow. This post clearly shows what this bufoons intentions are: "I know you are hurt by my answer. It reflects in your respond. You don't teach a duck how to swim. You'll be better off teaching Islamic principles to Sunnis than Sikhs. Sikhs have history books full of bloodshed caused unto them caused by Muslims. You're barking up the wrong tree. Wake up and move along. I have enough articles to cut and paste here and every else. My job is to give awareness to all Sikhs of the hideous ways of Muslim and Christian groups trying to under-mine the Sikh beliefs." I am sure these statements go against the forum rules/policies. Dhanvaad.

Instead trying to play antarjami, kindly stop ruining so many threads on this forum. Please ensure any reply to this post "clearly" states your question in relevance to "Evolution in Indian Music". ADMIN JI, please remove all Namjaps nonsensical and irrelevant posts from the forum. Dhanvaad.

Could you "clearly" state your question in relevance to "Evolution in Indian Music". Dhanvaad.

Great seva Kam veer ji, I pray Vaheguru gives you apaar kirpa to continue it with your usual vigour. Vaheguru

Thats an obvious and good point Fateh Singh Ji. I can understand people being upset about Mr Barmy imitating an amrit sanchar and having so many rape/sexual assault accusations against him, but why did people get upset at him using Sobha Singhs "fanciful" imagination as a fashion consultant?

Some of these are interesting points to mull over... even though is allegedly written by a most "displeased" ex 3HO member... "You know you're in a 'cult' when" September 4, 1999 By Siri Seriously Singh, S.S.S. The pages of your phone book are all filled up almost exclusively with other members of your group. You decide to stay within the group for your honeymoon. The only real vacation you've taken in 20 years is a group sponsored retreat for some courses. The only way you really know what's going on "in the real world", is by watching movies, which you do quite frequently. You're really worried that you forgot to prepare your food as the group says. Even your daughter's dolls look like group members. All of your son's animals also are dressed up like members. The only music that you own comes from your organization or its authorized list. You can't figure out why your leader doesn't run for President or something really big. Underneath you're hoping that your child is allowed to have a relatively normal name, but act really happy when he receives some weird name chosen by your leader. You think that most people that aren't in your group are alcoholics, drug addicts, or neurotic (unless of course, they're friends with your leader). The only things you can remember about your past are the painful parts. Even though you don't believe in superstition or faith healers, you just spent some money to have your horoscope read by an astrologer and paid some guy to do psychic surgery on you anyway. You wonder how it is that you can have a health problem when you know you've done everything just right like you were told by your group and its leader. You have just completed 120 days of a meditation and still don't have a job. But you believe somehow that this has brought you blessings because you just found $20 in your coat pocket. You just sold your car so you can afford to go to a group activity or fundraiser. You are seriously thinking about selling your house for the same reason. You baked hundreds of cookies to sell at some group activity, but you end up hawking them in the parking lot for enough gas to get home. The only way you can really like people is when they are members of, or potential recruits for your group. You do your two and half-hours of evening meditation and still wonder if that was enough and feel bad because you think you can never really do enough. Even your nightgowns meet the group's code. You throw out your favorite flannel shirt, because it's "not good for your aura." Even though you might think that a piece of clothing looks good that's "not approved"--you don't even allow yourself to want it. You think all the other groups just like yours are "cults," but not yours. You think all the other groups just like yours don't ask enough of their members, but yours is better-- because you have to do even more than they do. A lot of stuff that you used to think was really weird you are now doing. Even though you told yourself that you would never bow down to a human being--you just touched your teacher's feet. You don't care anymore who understands and who doesn't if they're not in your group. So he/she they would learn better and you can be really close, you would actually think about sending your minor child away to a "third world country" for the rest of his or her childhood and adolescence if the group advised you to. Even though you wouldn't trust your mother to make dinner for you--you now trust group members with your child. You find it easier to forgive your friend's husband for arbitrarily, abandoning his children and stealing her money--than to forgive her for disobeying a group rule.

Some interesting points by veer Kulbir Singh Ji: Author: Kulbir Singh Date: 05-18-07 05:26 The anger towards Sacha Sauda Dera is not purely because of the most recent action taken by Gurmit Ram Rahim the baba of this dera. The roots of this latest agitation by Sikhs lie in the years of provocations done by this dera. For years, Sikhs have been upset at their distortation of Gurbani and targeting gullible Sikhs and brainwashing them. Gurmit Ram Rahim mimicking Guru Sahib is just the last straw that broke the camel’s back. Before this, there have been many wrongdoings from their side. From what I have heard from Punjab, after losing up to 20 seats in the last elections because of Sacha Sauda effect, the Akalis decided to neutralize this cult and therefore the Dharam Parchar committee of SGPC started doing parchaar of Sikhi in full force in the strongholds of this dera i.e. Bathinda, Mansa and other parts of Malwa. Not taking this very well, the cult leaders did this latest provocation of mimicking Siri Guru Kalgidhar Patshah jee. It may be true that the Badal Akali Dal may be into it for political reasons but nevertheless, it is still good for the Panth because it has brought unity in Panth and it may force the Sikhs to look within and become better Sikhs. Here are some points that I would like to make with respect to this event: 1) This event has brought unity in Khalsa Panth. In the recent past, this kind of unity has rarely been displayed by Panth. May Guru Sahib do kirpa and Panth may always stay united. 2) I have never witnessed such good media coverage in India, for Sikhs. Almost always the media has been biased against Sikhs but in this case, they are positively covering the Sikh side of events and most of the media has condemned the Dera’s activities. 3) The statements of support from Hindus organizations like RSS, Bajrang Dal and others is a positive step. It does not matter whether they are doing this for some ulterior motive. The truth of the matter is that it is good to hear them praise Siri Guru Gobind Singh jeee and support Sikhs in this battle. By the same token, support from leftist parties and pro-communist parties is also a good thing. Even Congress MPs in the centre have expressed anguish at Dera’s activities. BJP MPs arguing in favour of Sikhs, in the parliament, was good. 4) I have not heard a single statement from Sardar Simranjit Singh Mann and it is pretty sad that at the time of such grave situation, he is fighting non-issues like installation of Beant Singh’s statue in Jalandhar. He has now ended up in jail and thus unable to be fighting for Sikhs. Involvement of Daljit Singh Bittu has been positive. 5) I have heard some shouting anti-Badal slogans and others shouting Khalistan slogans. I believe that this is not the right time and right place for such slogans. It will give the media and anti-Sikh politicians a chance to defame Sikhs. The police too will get an excuse to arrest and suppress this perfectly democratic and peaceful agitation against an anti-Sikh cult leader. 6) Dhadrian and all Sant-Mahatma along with leaders of all Sikh organizations were present at Damdama Sahib. I have heard that Mann Singh Pehowa said that whoever would cut off the head of the cult leader would receive one crore ruppees prize from him. 7) Comparing the Sikh sants with this dera leader is a very far fetched thing. Dhadrian has never mimicked Guru Sahib by making his own amrit or doing other such anti-Gurmat stuff. He did wear chamkeelay clothes but I don't think the idea was to imitate Guru Sahib and he has apologised for committing this mistake. Just my thoughts. Kulbir Singh

Is there a reason why Mr. Barmy (sorry I can't bring myself to call him Gurmeet, Ram or Rahim), also used this same concept of Sat Sitare? Is he or his dera connected to the Nakli Nirankari's?

Just a quick reminder re this Saturdays programme.

"Just more experienced and clear-headed now". How exactly? Could you please explain your need to seemingly demean other faiths and back your behaviour up with Gurbani. If this isn't your intention, then please explain what is?

"There could well be a caste thing in here too, since Dera Sacha Sauda's main fanbase are sehajdhari mazbhis." I think this plays a very important part. I heard Ram Raheem's followers number 3m, on CNN I think (probably a slight exaggeration), but I don't doubt that he has many followers, and majority being so called Mazbhis. This caste discrimination which is prevailent in nearly all corners of the panth (institutions and representatives) is the reason that Christian and Muslim conversions have been so successful in the Punjab historically. Today we have people like Ram Raheem making up huge numbers from communities which others have been treated unequally elsewhere. Seems to me, that rather than ranting and raving (as there will always be imposters), it's better to put effort into welcoming and treating those most likely to be misguided (due to lack of acceptance elsewhere) with respect and encouragement. This would not eliminate the imposter problem, but, certainly hugely reduce it.

This forum is funny, when you post something serious, the jokes don't stop, try and post something humorous and people turn serious! As we are on a serious vibe, I like veer Kam's answer, but I think more practically, the shastar probably represent the armoury of the Gur-ghar, for the defence of the Guru Ji, sangat and Gurdwara. I thought the original response was pretty funny (ironically)!

I am sure that would make your Guru proud Dynamic. I find that extremely offensive i.e. using the holy Gur-mantar and filth in the same sentance. But again, I am sure some here will find your hip-hop/holy pseudo comedy hilarious.

lThanks for the attempted neologism veer Dynamic Banda and the incongruous input veer Kirpa_Karo.

I am not sure if this discussion has already been had in detail (if so, apologies, could some kind person please post the link). Is an Avataar a manifestation or incarnation? From what I have found the word Avataar refers to a descent i.e. from a higher plane to a lower plane, or maybe from an immaterial plane to a material plane or perhaps from an incomprehendable to a comprehendable one etc. First it may be good to determine what sangats understanding of the word Avataar is, with sources if possible. If sangat could then explain their understanding of the difference between manifestation or incarnation, and give sources to back this up (Sikh, Hindu, Islamic etc), and state what an Avataar is... would be very helpful. Also, I would like to know if sangat thinks that Sri Krishna, Sri Ram Chand Ji, Guru Sahiban, Prophet Mohammed/12 Imams, Buddha, Zorastor, Jesus, Moses, Ibrahim...were all Avataars? Dhanvaad

Bhai Santa Singh A Unique Exponent of Guru’s Hymns -1 Harjap Singh Aujla AS a child I was used to waking up between 6 and 7am. But on one cold early winter morning of 1948 my mother woke me up at about 4:30am, gave me a bath and made my “Joora†(a bun of combed and knotted hair worn by the Sikhs). After I put on new clothes, she took me to the family radio and asked me to operate it. I pushed the on-button and the light came on. Soon the sound appeared. The sign-on tune of All India Radio looked like a great achievement. Then a sweet voice announced the time 5:00am and the start of a special one hour morning service on the airwaves of All India Radio Jalandhar-Amritsar in honour of the birth anniversary of Guru Nanak. The announcer told that we are taking you to the Golden Temple Amritsar for a direct transmission of the recitation of “Asa Di Vaarâ€. In a split second the beat of the drums (Tabla), the sound of harmonium and high pitched voices of a group of musicians could be heard. It seemed that the musicians were emotionally calling Guru Nanak to once again bless this earth with his physical presence in human form. The special recitation of the hymns of the “Guru†sounded genuinely emotional and appeared rather impressive. At that young age I did not understand as to what was being sung, nevertheless, I felt highly impressed by the melody, tone and texture of the music. I had no knowledge as to who was singing, nor did anybody announce it especially. For a number of years the voices heard on that day were shrouded in mystery, but my curiosity was always there to un-revel this mystery. Several years later, I had a chance meeting in America with Sardar Jodh Singh, the retired Assistant Station Director of All India Radio Jalandhar. Sardar Jodh Singh happened to be the announcer of the programme in the sanctum sancrorum of the Golden Temple on that auspicious day. He revealed for the first time that the group of musicians performing “Shabad Kirtan of Asa Di Vaar†at the Golden Temple during the first ever live transmission on the Birth Anniversary of Guru Nanak was indeed led by Late Bhai Santa Singh, the then senior most musician of the Golden Temple. I knew it all along that it was somebody special, somebody highly accomplished. A number of “Shabads†recorded on 78 RPM gramophone records in the voices of Bhai Santa Singh Ragi and party were available in the market for decades and different stations of All India Radio including Delhi, Jalandhar, Jammu and Lucknow used to play these records. Bhai Santa Singh had the God given unique capability to sing in very high notes, which most other musicians could not replicate. His exact date of birth is not known, but according to recorded information he was born in the walled city of Amritsar in 1904. During those days very few Sikhs used to sing even in the gurdwaras and those who did sing had to hone their skills at classical music under the strict guidance of Muslim or Pandit professional classical teachers. Bhai Santa Singh was no exception, he enrolled at a very young age as a learner of Sikh classical music in the music department of the famous “Yateem Khana†in Amritsar. The head teacher was a renowned trainer in classical music Bhai Sain Ditta. Several of Sain Ditta’s students served as the “Huzoori Ragis†at the Golden Temple. Other famous students of Sain Ditta included Bhai Taba, Bhai Naseera, Bhai Darshan Singh Komal and Sain Ditta’s own son Bhai Desa. But Bhai Santa Singh was exceptional among them all. Soon after completing his education at the “Yateem Khana†Bhai Santa Singh was employed as a “Hazoori Ragi†at the Golden Temple during early twenties. His group included among others another famous personality Late Bhai Surjan Singh also. Both were bestowed with very sharp and melodious voices and could sing in unison. The democratically elected governing body for the Sikh shrines the Shiromani Gurdwara Prabandhak Committee (SGPC), replacing the old institution of “Mahanthood†took control of all the historic Sikh shrines in Punjab and North West Frontier Province in 1925, but still a very high standard of “Gurmat Sangeet†(traditional Sikh religious music) was maintained at most of its Gurdwaras at least during the first three decades of the inception of the SGPC. During those days the Golden Temple Amritsar was known for employing highly accomplished musicians for performing “Chawnkis of Shabad Kirtan†in its sanctum sanctorum. Recommendations by the influential and the powerful were never considered for recruitment of staff. Other great musicians in the service of the Golden Temple included legendry Bhai Lal, Bhai Chand, Bhai Chanan, Bhai Hira Singh etc. Soon Bhai Santa Singh carved a nitch for himself. He was very hard-working. As a first step he used to grasp the meaning of the “Shabad†to be sung. He modulated his voice to convey the true meaning of the “Shabad†without the need of explaining it through a speech or a discourse. At times he used to slow down the beat so much that the meaning of each word of the “Guru†was understood clearly even by the layman. While reciting the “Bir Rus Bani†(martial music) of the tenth master Guru Gobind Singh, he used to convey the message of war by increasing the pace of the musical composition. On special occasions, the Golden Temple and Gurdwara Janam Asthan Sri Nankana Sahib, the two most sacred Gurdwaras, used to exchange their leading musicians. Bhai Santa Singh used to go to Nankana Sahib on those occasions. All India Radio Lahore came into being in 1936, but the full fledged production facilities were added in 1937. That was the year when Bhai Santa Singh was also approved as a casual radio artist. During those days the line up of the classical vocal radio artists of All India Lahore included among others Dalip Chander Vedi, Bade Ghulam Ali Khan, Master Rattan of Phagwara, Master Madan, Dina Qawwal of Jullundur, Mubarik Ali Fateh Ali of Jullundur and Harish Chander Bali. The leading Sikh religious musicians included Bhai Santa Singh of the Golden Temple and Bhai Samund Singh of Gurdwara Janam Asthan Nankana Sahib. Malika Pukhraj, Bhai Chhaila of Patiala, Mohammad Rafi, Noorjehan, Zeenat Begum, Shamshad Begum, Dilshad Begum, Mukhtar Begum, Parkash Kaur and Surinder Kaur were considered much junior Punjabi song and “Ghazal†singers. Casual singing at All India Radio Lahore made Bhai Santa Singh very famous. During those days Genophone Recording Company opened its modern recording studio in Lahore. Master Ghulam Haider was hired as its music director. Master Ghulam Haider developed a special liking for the voice of Bhai Santa Singh. He persuaded Bhai Santa Singh to record some “Shabadsâ€. The tunes were either traditional Sikh religious “Reets†handed down from generation to generation or Bhai Santa Singh’s own highly melodious creations. The orchestra with special preludes and interludes was of course Ghulam Haider’s. Eight “Shabads†were recorded on four discs of three minutes each and each became very popular. These recordings were made in 1941-42, but their 45RPM extended play discs were available till 1970s. Other Sikh musician whose recordings of Sikh religious music are among the earliest available on records include Bhai Budh Singh Taan, whose rendering of “As Di Vaar†was available on 12 discs in 78RPM. “Asa Di Vaar†by the group of Bhai Sudh Singh Pardhan Singh was also recorded during the forties. One or two records of “Shabad Gayan†in the voices of Bhai Gurmukh Singh Sarmukh Singh Fakkar of Nankana Sahib were also available in the market. In addition one disc of “Shabad Gayan†in the voice of child prodigy Master Madan was also recorded during the nineteen forties. This recording after disappearing from the market for several decades is once again available. Some “Shabads†sung by Bhai Budh Singh Taan and Surinder Kaur were also available in the market during the forties. Bhai Samund Singh, although sang regularly for the radio, but did not record his “Shabad Gayan†on discs until the nineteen sixties, when during the Quin Centennial celebrations of the birth of Guru Nanak a set of five long playing records was published.[To be continued]

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From Tapoban: Shastar in front of SGGSJ Author: nitn3m Date: 05-15-07 05:06 Why do we place Shastars in front of SGGSJ? Reply To This Message Re: Shastar in front of SGGSJ Author: Khalsaspirit Date: 05-15-07 09:16 Waheguru ji ka khalsa Waheguru ji ki fateh Khalsa jio, So that they can be easily available to those Sikhs who needs to attack other Sikhs in Gurudwara Sahib. Guru Mehar Karay Waheguru ji ka khalsa Waheguru ji ki fateh

Veer Javanmard Ji, I am really sorry to hear about your experiences. But you must understand that many "Punjabi" Sikhs trying to help, can and do get as much, and in cases, more stick than you did. I feel the issue was probably not on the large part to do with your background, but probably more to do with your thoughts and opinions, which narrow minded, uneducated or fanatical people can't bear to debate, as it creates a big whole in their ozone layer. But you must try not to group us all together, and continue digs re Punjab and it's peoples failings. The failing of any people on this planet (irrelevant of background) are as much your failing as they are "ours". Portugal has many, many skeletons in it's closets, but we don't paint you with the same brush. It would be better to discuss and address the real problems, and try and find constructive and realisitc solutions for them. I personally don't know or associate with racist people, and there are many, many Sikhs that are happy to see the beautiful and increasing diversity of Guru Gobind Singh Ji's children. As well as lost knowledge found. You said "AN AMAZING WORLDWIDE FREE PUBLICITY CAMPAIGN DONE BY THEIR OWN ENEMIES!" I agree with your sentiments, but if you have something good to offer, then are you not guilty of your own accusation, by pushing all potentially articulate Sikhs away..... I pray that you will one day endeavour to use and share your skills with those of us that can and would appreciate them. We would love for you to join us and sing the highest praises of Karta Purkh, your Sitar would also be most welcome, please feel free to drop into any Gurmat Kirtan Darbaar when next you are in the UK. Vaheguru Sukh Shaanti Bukshai

Dear veer Javanmard ji, Do you not believe in daya and seva? Or is reserved for special people? I always thought the point was for it to be non-discriminatory and nishkaam? With the all due respect, I sometimes think, if you had your own way – you would be the only person left on Earth, as “nearly all†people are just as fallible and lost as the ones you detest. Tribe is an illusion. In reality all people are born as and die as individuals and with unique thought, save for those few anmol, who have received his glance, they appear in all colours and all corners, and are above tribalism (or any other numerous derivatives used to describe people or movements of a higher plane/understanding) and are above our meagre knowledge. I always thought the hard earned role of a Nirmala and/or Khalsa was to help those who couldn’t help themselves? This is not about “Sikhsâ€, but humanity in all it’s disguised “tribal†and fallible forms and shades,

My farthings worth: Keertan Tradition The tradition of keertan developed over the period of the ten Gurus is as follows: * Hymns from the following compositions only are permitted in keertan: Adi Granth, Dasam Granth, vaars and kabits of Bhai Gurdas, Bhai Nandlal’s poems. Agreed, although Sri Sarbloh Sahib Ji is a contentious issue, as Nihangs claim to have kept the said Granth Sahib secret, so not sure how it would have formed part of a kirtan tradition in rest of the panth. Raagis like Bhai Nirmal Singh and Bhai Balbir Singh are fond of singing from Sri Sarbloh Sahib Ji now that it is publicly available (although Bhai Balbir singh Ji Nihang Raagi brother would have provided input for bhai sahib)… * The keertan-group is generally seated on the right side of the palki of Guru Granth Sahib. No special seats or cushions are provided for the singers. However, in big diwans (Assemblies), the use of platform or dais is allowed, provided it is lower than the palki (seat) of Guru Granth Sahib. This is done to enable the ragis and the congregation to have full view of one another. Not sure about this, I believe kirtan would have been done to the Guru traditionally with all sangat facing the Guru as is done in Darbaar Sahib, plus pre Singh Sabha/SGPC, raagi jathaas used to consist of many people, at least 10 as there were not microphones of amplifiers, and numerous tanti saaj and joris were used, so the little space on the right side of Guru ji would have been limited, more sense that raagis would have sat with sangat singing to their Guru, as is done by AKJ at rehansavai and sort of done by Nanaksaar taath. * In the morning, keertan of entire Asa-di-var (24 chhants, salokas and pauris) is completed. The singing of Asa-di-var is not to be interrupted by katha (exposition of a random hymn read from the Scripture) or lecture. Agreed. Singing Asa di Vaar is the same as any other shabd, the shabd should be sung completely and nothing inserted (shabds from other raags) as is done today. More importantly, it is ASA di vaar, so should be sung in ASA!! * Appropriate compositions of Gurbani are sung at certain functions. For example at the time of Anand Karaj (Sikh Wedding) Lavan, Anand and suitable shabads ar sung. At the funeral of a Sikh, appropriate shabads relating to death are sung. Keertan Sohila is recited before cremating the dead body. This is tradition, is practical and is accepted, there are various historical references to this also. * Every hymn should be sung in the indicated raga and tala. The singer should use the appropriate laya, tan and palta. However, he must not forget the rasa and the appropriate ethos, mood and spirit of the hymn. Agreed, par the specific tala, which is not indicated. * Vars should be sung as indicated in the Scripture. For example Gauri var should be sung in Gauri raga, Ramkali var in Ramkali raga, with appropriate dhuni if indicated. Agreed. * Display of musical skill and excess of alaap and tan are not permitted, as they tend to make the minds of singers and listeners mercurial and unstable. Agreed , skill should be utilised within reason, to beautify the shabad and draw the sangats attention, not put the sangat off or use the kirtan as personal practice session. * Correct pronunciation and intonation of Gurbani is essential so that the audience may understand the wording and the meaning of the hymn. The singer is not supposed to introduce any words of his own or make interpolations in Gurbani [1]. The use of extra words like ha, ji, wahwah, piyara, etc., is against the spirit of Gurmat. Agreed. This culture of adding words etc is growing. * The raga-technique and the sounds of instruments are subordinated to the singing of the hymn. What is brought out prominently by the musician is the Gurbani and its rasa, and not the musical expertise. Parallel quotations (parmans) to illustrate the theme are permitted during the keertan. I don’t agree with parmans, I think this is what AKJ do, Guru Ji has composed the shabd to perfection, we don’t need to improve on it of further explain it, that is the purpose of Rahao and padas. * Any hymn that has been commenced should be completed. Lack of time is no reason for stopping the singing of a hymn in between. Agreed, especially in the case of singing Anand Sahib, which is never completed. * No keertan is permitted during Akhand Path (continuous reading of the Scripture). Personally agree, doesn’t make any sense, as sangat can only focus on one thing. And it doesn’t make sense to sing over Guru when he is talking. * The listeners should not make offerings (donations) to the musicians while the keertan is in progress. Offerings can be made at the end of the keertan. The best way is one followed by Sufi Congregations, where the listeners make the offerings to the president of the function or the organiser who respectfully hands over the collections to the leader of the music-group at the conclusion of the function. No ragi should interrupt his keertan to acknowledge a donation or offering, nor should he mention the name of the donor. He should make a collective acknowledgement of the offerings at the end of the keertan. This procedure is in accordance with Resolution No. 5 dated 2nd January 1976 of the Keertan Sub-Committee of the Shiromani Gurdwara Prabandhak Committee, Amritsar. In any case, interruption of keertan to praise a donor or office-bearer of the Gurdwara or a distinguished visitor by name is absolutely forbidden, as it is against Gurmat (Guru’s instructions). Agreed. Re the ghar and taals, I have posted reasons to refute this theory in another thread, prime contradiction being Ghar is derived from Greh which functions as a shruti (microtone) in historical literature (pre Sikhi), and par-taal and ghar hukum appear together in some shabds in Maharaj, which is contradictory.