amardeep

http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Reasons_for_the_martyrdom_of_Guru_Arjan

I did answer. - I wrote: I think the Minas wrote history books Of course I am assuming, since no one really knew untill recently how involved the Mughals were in the execution of Guru Arjan. Since the early historians did'n know, they mostly just stated what was "obvious" ie that Chandu allerted the Mughals, who then had him executed. I did'n say they did'n have any followers, surely they did, - but not enough to have any substantial effect. Thats why most of them died out during the 17th and 18th century when their Mughal backing collapsed. In terms of political power, they hardly played any role in the larger Punjab or Indian history. Here is the words of Jahangir himself: This is what Emperor Jahangir had written in his diary the "Tuzuk-i-Jahagiri" ( "Memoirs of Jahangir"): "In Govindwal, which is on the river Biyah (Beas), there was a Hindu [wrongly addresses Guru as a Hindu!] named Arjun, in the garments of sainthood and sanctity, so much so that he had captured many of the simple-hearted of the Hindus, and even of the ignorant and foolish followers of Islam, by his ways and manners, and they had loudly sounded the drum of his holiness. They called him Guru, and from all sides stupid people crowded to worship and manifest complete faith in him. For three or four generations (of spiritual successors) they had kept this shop warm. Many times it occurred to me to put a stop to this vain affair or to bring him into the assembly of the people of Islam. At last when Khusrau passed along this road this insignificant fellow proposed to wait upon him. Khusrau happened to halt at the place where he was, and he came out and did homage to him. He behaved to Khusrau in certain special ways, and made on his forehead a finger-mark in saffron, which the Hinduwan (the people of India) call qashqa, (Tilak) and is considered propitious. When this came to my ears and I clearly understood his folly, I ordered them to produce him and handed over his houses, dwelling-places, and children to Murtaza Khan, and having confiscated his property commanded that he should be put to death." ,.... ... In the light of contemporary historical evidence from the direct and original sources it appears that Guru Arjan was arrested and executed for the following reasons: (a) his religious preachings, (b) contemporary political developments and (c) personal reasons. The execution took place under the orders of Emperor Jahangir during the second year of his reign when due to political, personal and religious necessity he had to honour the Muslim revivalists to act as defender of Islamic faith. In his Memoirs, the Emperor unashamedly confessed that: (a) it was he who ordered Guru Arjan to be put to death; (b) that he was concerned about the popularity of the Guru (c) that the Guru was popular with both Hindus and Muslims and (d) it was also naively accepted that the motive for this crime was the Emperors religious bigotry and an excuse to eliminate the Guru was then sought in linking it to Prince Khusrau. Final thoughts It is clear that the Emperor had been misled regarding the true facts but he took no steps to find the truth about the prevailing circumstances. It appears that the situation of Guru Arjan happened to be the first important one reported to him for his decision as a test case to prove his bona fides as a saviour of the Muslims from the influences of the non-Muslims and under the circumstances, he made an error in his decision to please the fundamentalists. For the Sikhs it was a supreme sacrifice of their Guru for the cause of righteousness and truth. It admittedly was a unique martyrdom which has no match in the Indian history. Guru Arjan is the first martyr in Sikh history who fought for his ideals and a righteous cause for which he stood unshakable and steadfast. The Gurus martyrdom had far-reaching consequences. It transformed the Sikhs into saint-soldiers who, from now onwards, exercised a decided influence on the subsequent history of the Punjab. Thus was the course of history changed due to one fatal mistake of Emperor Jahangir.

I have'nt studied in years the details as to what Chandu said to the Mughals to get them involved. Yes the third point I wrote that whatever Chandu said it was obviosly not the notion of marriage, as the Mughals would'n care about that. But whatever he said, he did'n need to say much as Jahangir already had an issue with Guru Arjan so he was just looking for an excuse to have him arrested. It is Jahangirs own words that he had a grudge with Guru Arjan due to him converting so many hindus and muslims. In the Punjab it appears that only the Sufis and Sikhs were succesful in converting the majority Hindu populace. The Nakshbandi Sufis of Punjab were part of Jahangirs staunch supporters and ulama, so they must have used their political influence to lobby Jahangir and make him aware of how much of a challenge Guru Arjan and the Sikhs were. Yes the notion of fake Gurus if from my perspective. What I mean is that the Mughals were trying to pump up and support marginal, alternative Gurus by granting them large areas of land, money etc. The fake Gurus were never really succesful at converting people, that's why they never grew in numbers nor power despite having state patronage and backing. So the Mughals never saw them as a threat. Aurangzeb was very cautious of controlling the Sikhs, - his attempt at installing new Gurus (Ram Rai) and thereby controlling the Guru linage as loyal to his raj is evidence of this. But the Sikhs did'n follow Ram Rai, instead they continued with Hari Rai, Tegh Bahadur and Gobind SIngh- all of whom Aurangzeb was trying to have submit to himself.

We need to discuss one topic at a time. Right now we are discussing Guru Arjan and Jahangeer. We can proceed to Aurangzeb afterwards if you so wish. Fact are: Due to a personal issue, Chandu was mad at Guru Arjan and spread rumours to have him arranged in Mughal custody. The Mughal emperor Jahangeer had been cautious about Guru Arjan for a long time due to him converting many Hindus and Muslims to Sikhi. This is his own words. The Mughals arrest Guru Arjan - and obviosly not due to Guru Arjan refusing a marriage proposal of Chandu as marriage proposals were not Mughal state matters - The Muguhals executed Guru Arjan. Not Chandu Conclusions: Both Chandu and the Mughals were guilty of the shaheedi of Guru Arjan. Now in terms of Aurangzeb - obviosly he had more Hindu administrators than Akbar as he ruled a much larger empire than Akbar did so he needed the competences of the khatri Hindus who were masters of administration, trade etc. The Mughal emperors would sponsor the fake Gurus as a way of divide and conquer. By strengthening the fake gurus they were hoping to reduce the power and influence of the orthodox Gurus. This is very common, you see the same in Chinese history with the Chinese government suppporting alternative Dalai Lamas. Interesting it is that these fake Gurus whom the Mughals supported were always pro-Mughal while the Orthodox Gurus were either indifferent or in opposition to the Mughals.

And also. Commentators will always have different versions of what happened.. If you look today at some terror incident, there are also very conflicting views as to what exactly happened and why.. Five people watching the same event will have three different versions of what happened

No that's not what im saying. I'm saying today with the knowledge we have, it is apparant that the Mughals are to blame. But before the finding of Jahangirs memoirs, the Sikh historians mostly focused on the role of Chandu. Let's say that Chatanga is mad at Papiman for some reason. Chatanga wants Papiman in jail, so Chatanga alerts the police saying that Papiman is a thief and he often beats up old women.. He is telling a lie, but the police decide to throw papiman in jail for theft. Now.. From a street level perspective, it is apparant that Chatanga is a liar, and hence people will blame him for having caused Papiman for going to jail. People will mostly say Chatanga maneged to fool the police. He is the villain here. Now, 20 yeras later, we find out the Police during that time actually wanted to throw Papiman in jail due to him being sardar. The police want all sardars out.. So regardless of Chatanga having alterted the police or not, they would most likely have thrown him in jail anyway. WIth this knowledge, the blame shifts to the police being the brutal perpetrators, rather than just being misled blindly..

And no. The mughals executed guru Arjan due to the reson given in jahamgirs own writings. The issue with chandu lal was thej catalyser that brought abut the execution. But chandu was not the executioner nor did thej mughals execute maharaj due to a wedding conflict. So the mughals are at guilt here.

Mohsin fani in his persian dabistan-i-mazhab talks about Mass converrsolns under these two gurus. I think the Minas wrote history books

What laws are that?

Well the early Sikh sources do describe it as an internal issue then taken to a higher political context when chandu involves the Lahore Mughals. It is a Historical fact verifies by both Sikh and Muslim sources that guru ram Das and guru Arjan were heavily successful at converting people to sikhi. This brought about rapid changes in the punjab country side where many Sikhs started appearing. The Mughals would have been alerted by this as the gurus message was not entirely a spiritual one. But also had political implications. At that time the Sufi Naqshbandi and Sikhs were competing to win the hearts and minds of the locals and the Sikhs did great in this regard. For that reason the Sufi leaders were happy that guru Arjan had been martyred as they also mention in their own writings.

The Sikh sources mostly connect the shaheedi of Guru Arjan to Chandu. As a conspiracy due to his anger at the Guru having refused a marriage proposal. Chandu then influences the authorities at Lahore who arrests the Guru. Later on, Singh Sabha scholars in the 1900s came across Jahangeers memoirs wherein he mentions his own hatred to Guru Arjan having wanted to stop him for a long time due to many hindus and muslims becoming Sikh. He then uses a political pretext as an excuse to arrest and martyr the Guru. It's only from this find, that the Sikh writings make a direct connection between the Mughals and the Guru, The early sources that mention the incident with the tent and calling for heads all mention 5 goats being slaugthered. Im not sure if the Muslim spy account is genuine. I'm not sure there is any historical truth to the Masands being boiled alive. In the Guru's hukamnamas after 1699 He still instructs the Sikhs not to associate with the Masands, as does mid 18th century rahitnamas, which mean they were still alive. If the Guru had killed them, obviosly there would be no reason to warn against them,

I dont think anyone would get away with trying to hurt the Mughal emperor. So if one were to hurt him, it would be for the sake of assasination. Trying to inflict him little damage would not be worth the risk of facing execution afterwards.

In all conflicts there are always multiple agendas. Look at Syria for instance, it's not simply a matter of rebel groups vs Bashar Al Assad. The different rebel groups have hundreds of agendas, and in some cases they can work together for a common goal while setting their own differences aside. Likewise in terms of the Shaheedi of the Gurus, Jahangeer had one motive to persecute Guru Arjan Dev while Chandu Shah and others on a local basis had other motives. But in both cases they wanted to get rid of the Guru. Likewise, the Pahari rajas had their motives to get rid of Guru Gobind Singh while Aurangzeb had others.

It's just sad that the prices multiply by 5 times if you're from Europe.

Thank you. I plan to buy loads of books from that page in a few weeks

What do you mean by that Singh?

Bro how much katha do you listen to in a day

Well done well spotted Singh!!

bump

who are they?

So it does'nt say anywhere in the text that she wants her son to be king? Interesting. Maybe it comes up much later in the text as the charitars goes along

Awesome! So much stuff to extract from these charitars

Minas and Masands are now largely extinct. Dhir Malias have descendants to this day (the Sodhis of Kartarpur), and there are Ram Raiyas in Dehra Dun. In the 1891 census 52,317 Hindus and 30,396 Sikhs returned themselves as 'Ram Raia' . (Census of India, 1891, Vol.XX and Vol.XXI, The Punjab and its Feudatories, by E.D. Maclagan, Part II and III, Calcutta, 1892, pp.826-9 and pp.572-3.) However there are no contemporary official numbers, (see also the note at the end of the Explanatory Introduction). http://www.philtar.ac.uk/encyclopedia/sikhism/minas.html

Yep the five groups mentioned in the 18th century rahitnamas

Nope. As far as I know, none of the panj mel exist today