tSingh

Gurfateh Talking from a purely spiritual perspective here, but Sufis have used dance a means to reach ecstatic states in which they are oblivious to the world and engrossed in God. Rumi and the Mevlavi tradition has practiced Zikhr with a form of dance for centuries (look up the 'whirling dervishes') and of all Sufis, Rumi is one of the greatest. Khalsa Soulja will probably know this too, that a lot of the AKJ get off on the fast simran bits - someone once tried to sell me a tape at a raensabhai as either being 'fast or superfast'! Is it the 'waheguru' that engrosses you in it, or is it the universal effect of speeding up a rhythm until very fast and louder that is getting you into it - I'd say it is the effect of the rhythm that is pulling people into that. I leave you to make up your own minds! If anything AKJ kirtan has strongest links to Qawalli, with it's increasing speed and group singing. I also have recordings of a pair of brothers from Lahore who play dhols in a sufi dargah as part of the zikhr (simran) ceremony. Again this leads to these ecstatic dances in the pirs. As for non-kirtan being sinful maya - nothing could be further from the truth! What is kirtan and what is not kirtan just depends on your mindset. I have a friend who hears the praises of God in Bob Marley - all he is talking about is God. Listen to free jazz by john coltrane, albert ayler, pharoah sanders and they tell you they are inspired by God. Listen to Indian Raag - people like Ustad Amir Khan were as good as mystics living a hermits life for his meditative music in which he found the beauty of God. Music is a tool, a means to an end. It can produce in you any aspect of yourself, lust, anger, love, humility, sadness, happiness, spiritual yearning. Therefore, if you listen to inspired music in whatever form it will have that effect on you.

Gurfateh Meditation is categorised as a general psychological (as opposed to 'specific') stress management technique. It has been criticised for not tackling the causes of stress, and therefore only a partially effective treatment for stress. However, psychologists have only evaluated the particular meditation techniques used for stress management (visualisation, pranayama based on a mantra), whereas I would argue that insight meditation could be used to deal with causes behind stress.

Gurfateh Ironic how the article is talking about a rewriting of history by people who were influenced by Christain missionaries! That's a partial truth. OK, a lot of earliest texts on Guru Gobind Singh ji refer to Mata Jeeto (marriage in Anandpur) whose father was a Khatri from Lahore. The next marriage was of Bhai Ram Saran's daughter, Sundri. Finally Guru ji took a Ramu khatri's daughter called Sahib Devi as a wife, although she was to remain celibate. It is also recorded that of the sahibzadae, 3 were born to Mata Sundri, one to Jeeto (Sahibzada Jujhar Singh). Giani Ishar Singh Nara in his book 'Safarnama and Zafarnama' states that the issue of there being one wife with different names does not stand due to the inscription on the slab in Gurudwara Mata Sundri in Delhi on which it states that her marriage to Guru Gobind Singh ji took place on 1684AD. Even Macauliffe who was towing the line of Singh Sabha reform ideology states that there were three wives, and details there history. Furthermore, Mata Jeeto ji died whilst at Anandpur Sahib. Guru ji cremated her himself and Gurdwara Agampura stands at this place. Mata Sundri lived to over see the Khalsa (the house she stayed at in Delhi is now a Gurdwara). Both Mata Sundri and Mata Sahib Kaur Devi have separate hukamnamae acredited to them (see Ganda Singh's 'Hukamnamae'). Also Kahn Singh Nabha's 'Mahan Kosh' has entries for all three wives. I wouldn't describe him as a 'christian missionary' nor someone ignorant of punjabi cultural traditions. To understand the Guru's understanding of marriage, we can look to the saakhi about 'wily Anoop Kaur' who tried to seduce the Guru. It is recorded that some of Chritro-Pakhyan arises from this incident. references: Giani Ishar Singh 'Safarnama and Zafarnama' Macauliffe 'Sikh Religion' Kahn Singh Nabha 'Mahan Kosh'

Gurfateh Mahant Ganesha Singh Nirmala published ayurvedic texts. You can still get hold of these texts.

I seem to have hit a raw ego! Can I ask a sincere question Bikramjit... Do you actually do mathatekh when you go the Gurdwara? Now, in your post you state that you believe that those who follow the Islamic faith and Muslims in general are very unsure in their faith (see in your above post), that means by your logic that Baba Farid's bani must also be insecure and unsure. You also imply that all Muslims will lie when cornered about their faith. Again, you are implicitly stating that Baba Farid would also be willing to lie to defend his faith. Equally that would suggest that the following people were uncertain, insecure potential liars; Bhai Mardana, Pir Bidh Shah, his martyred sons who died defending Guru Gobind Singh, Mian Mir...all potential liars, all insecure. Now let me get this right Bikramjit, You bow to the writings of someone you think was both a potential liar and was insecure and unsure about his faith in God. Of course, this is assuming your own 'evidence' is correct. Surely that makes you a hypocrite? You bow before the writings of someone you dislike! Going by your 'facts' of course. Unless of course you accept that SOME muslims are unsure of their faith and SOME muslims may lie when cornered.

Gurfateh Well said Naamabhiyaas! You've clocked this one. There will always be fundamentalists, politicians, racists, nindyas within any group of people. There will also be those who see clearly, those who recognise humanity as one, those who love all, those who love God also within any group of people. I've met enough fundamentalist Sikhs in my time. I've also met enough fundamentalist Christains, Hindus, Muslims, etc. But I know for sure that there are lots of Muslims, Christians, Hindus out there who are not fundamentalist and recognise all as one. We do not have the same path, the same way we don't have the same facial features, but we are from the same source and we are trying to return to the same source. To do this we need pyaar. Those who focus on the finger pointing at the moon will be stuck with the finger, those who look to the moon for all it's clear and all-encompassing beauty will see that same beauty in anyone from a murderer to a saint. You can spend your time looking for differences, looking for fundamentalists, looking for negative information to reassure your ego, relishing divisive thinking. That kind of thinking is pure ego. It makes you feel somehow superior by posing people who are inferior. Guru Arjun Dev states in Sukhmani Sahib that the Brahmgyani treats friend and foe alike. But until you tackle your own stereotypes, you will not begin to see Manas Ki Jaat, therefore you cannot truly wish for Sarbat Da Bhalla. Therefore you do not recognise creation as one, all suffering ego, and you cannot develop compassion and humility. Therefore, it is hard to start tearing away at the layers of the onion that is your ego because you are still stuck in dualistic thinking. Jallauddin Rumi uses this story, which comes from the Buddha. A hindu brings an elephant to a persian city at night. The nobles are so excited as they have never seen an elephant. It is pitch black so they all start feeling the creature. One says 'it is long and thin and pointed at the end', the other says 'it is thick and strong', the third says 'it is wide and hairy'. They all leave with their own understanding of what the elephant is like. They cannot comprehend the whole elephant, yet they have all touched it. 'There is no Muslim, there is no Hindu' does not mean, therefore, there is Sikhism (as it has been explained to me). It means that there is only humanity in God. Humanity are plagued by ego, no matter what they look like. Guru Gobind Singh ji in Akaal Ustat says of God (paraphrased) 'you are in the qaazi's call to prayer, you are in the hindu reciting the gayatri mantra'. Once you have dropped your stereotypes and stop assuming anything about anyone you can talk to them and be with them with only compassion for them. If you begin by disliking and hating them, you are still plagued by ego. Look at Guru Gobind Singh ji's life for inspiration. So much injustice happened, everything was taken away from him, yet he never suggested that muslims were the cause of this. He never once stated that ALL muslims are like this or that! He knew that it was the individual ego of his enemies.

Gurfateh And I presume you've met every muslim in the world to say with confidence that all muslims are like this, haven't you Bikramjit. What's that phrase, ignorance breeds ignorance? Can I ask you a serious question, and I leave it up to you to answer this truthfully How many muslim friends have you got? Let me just run a few historical names by you: Bhai Mardana, Pir Budh Shah and his sons, Mian Mir, Baba Farid, the Rabaabis, Bhai Noor Shah. I guess they all thought their faith was the only 'true' one too.

Gurfateh You have really suprise me this time, Khalsa Soulja! You have now suggested that there are no reliable rehitnamae and look to Gurbani for answers on code of conduct. You have then stated that there is no actual reliable account of 1699 and what Guru Gobind Singh ji said. You have resolved this by saying look to Gurbani and the Vaahees of the Bhatts for rehitnama. This sounds remarkably like a certain scholar who was recently ex-communicated! You have just discredited all accepted codes of conduct and documents of the creation of the Khalsa! I suggest you change your log in name! Yet you are convinced that kesgi is definately part of the rehit, then where in SGGS does it say that? In fact where in Gurbani does it state any of the 5 Ks? Show me the quote for the amrit ceremony from SGGS. Where in Gurbani does it state what paath to read in the morning? Where in Gurbani does it state what to eat? We both know there is no definate answer on meat in sggs. There are quotes which suggest it shouldn't be eaten, and quotes which suggest there is no issue about eating it. So where are your rigid beliefs on rehit, kesh and dharis coming from?

Gurfateh hmm, that's a rather dangerous thing to say Khalsa Soulja for a person who seems very confident as to what is part of Sikhi and what is not. You have just implied that most original rehitnamae are just individual interpretation, suggesting that since there are no other rehitnamae to go by, ANY modern rehitnamae (Taksal, SGPC) can only be based upon an original individual interpretations. You ask about Bhai Daya Singh Rehitnama, in which there is no mention of jhatka, but there is mention of halaal. It states clearly that meat killed in the halaal manner must not be consumed. It also states a code of conduct for an Akali and a Bihangam. There is no mention of meat in the Akali section, but a bihangam is described as not touching meat. Interestingly this very same rehitnamah acredits the creation of the Khalsa and the 5 Ks as having been given as a gift from the following gods; Mohan brought the 'waheguru' mantra, Varuna gave the amrit, Indra gave the sugar, Yamanraj the sarabloh batta, Kaal brings the 'sarabloh ki karad', Chandi presented the kes and Hanuman gave the soldier's kuchae. Furthermore, the gods also gave the parts of the karah prasad (Vishnu the sugar, Mahadev the flour and Brahma the ghee. Another interesting feature of this rehitnamah is that is it states that the weapons and equipment used in the ceremony should be worhipped (kari pujae), to be performed at the end of the amrit ceremony. You also asked about the Varan - what do you mean?

Gurfateh khalsa soulja said: 'nowhere in the dasam granth rehitnamas or anywhere else is the idea of jhatka entertained' That's not actually true. Prem Sumarg rehitnamah actually says 'include meat in your daily diet...he who eats it will be purified' (verse 2.7) Desa Singh Rehitnamah states that it should not be part of langar and instead should be killed and eaten away from the langar. You should try to actually read the rehitname before making statements such as the above.

WaheGuruji Ka Khalsa WaheGuruji Ki Fateh To be quite honest, I wouldn't meet him face to face even if he came to my front door. When someone abuses his power so badly, then they need to brought up on it. N30 Singh; If you heard of a person who is corrupt and is abusing sincere people's religious devotion, then I'd hope you'd also feel strongly in favour of stopping him. Furthermore, I REALLY hope these comments do spread like wildfire because this is not conjecture but the testimony of many many ex-3ho Sikhs. All of you need to do is take an impartial glance at: http://forums.delphiforums.com/KamallaRose/messages http://yogibhajan.tripod.com/ - has court papers for the Premka case You might think it's make-believe, but this info is in the public domain for you to look at. Is it produced by crazed bitter people? Possibly! If any of you read Kamalla Rose Kaur's articles on Sikhe.com, I'm sure you'll agree that she is not a crazed bitter person, and yet she is one of the fiercist opponents against 3HO, who recieved a lot of harrassment leaving 3HO as you would from any cult. Some of the most illustrious 3ho Sikhs such as the very good kirtani, Vikram Singh Khalsa, left 3ho because of the cultish aspects. In fact he also left because Bhajan sent one of his close Singhs around with a gun!! Fact!! If you doubt this please read his own testimony on the above forum. For the person who had mis-read my message about the 'Ong' type chants, I never suggested there was anything wrong with them. The point I was making is that they are taken from Baba Virsa Singh and not, as is suggested, Bhajan's own work. I leave it up to everyone on the forum to make up their own mind. The reason I posted this, is that I can't bear to hear this man being lauded as a great Sikh, when everything I've heard and read suggests the opposite. Again, I have nothing against 3ho Sikhs. I have a huge amount of respect for our British 3ho representative, Shiv Charan Singh, and I'd like to spend more time in his company. Nor is my issue with the yoga, nor any of 3Ho's tenets. But simply with the abuse of power and people within the organisational structure.

WaheGuruji Ka Khalsa WaheGuruji Ki Fateh To steel Bangle and Grewal; the devil himself is also reknowned to be 'a nice chap' who plays the violin well. I suggest searching some of the X-3HO forums for info on what he does and has done. It will shock you to bits. This isn't bitter ex-cult types (although many are) making things up, this is full-on court case notes that were settled out of court accusing Bhajan of rape and fraud. There is even a suggestion of involvment in murder. It seems that he is a charlatan and a bully who knew very little about Sikhi and even less about Kundalini yoga. He has actively created a personality cult around himself (one e.g. is the fact that all 3Ho practitioners had to have a young looking, framed photo of bhajan on their meditation bench to stare at when meditating and doing yoga). He is reknowned for his horrendously inflated ego and arrogance - even Osho japed about how bhajan merely worked in an airport before he saw one of the 'Eastern Gurus' make loads in the US, decided to do the same by jumping on the 60's 'Yoga' bandwagon. What's also interesting is that Bhajan was actually a follower of Baba Virsa Singh (Virsa Singh came up with these long 'Ong kar sat nam' style chants used by the 3HO in yoga, acredited to bhajan). Early on in 3ho history, the deal was, bring the followers back to India to meet Baba Virsa Singh, but Bhajan decided against it and kept them for himself. Baba Virsa Singh then cut all ties w/ bhajan. Read also about how he actually got all these 'goray' into Sikhi. Not by explaining Gurbani or Sikhi itself, but by teaching yoga, taking them to US, then telling them that they had to go through a small 'ceremony' at Akal Takht - taking amrit!!! He didn't explain any of the consequences of taking amrit. Quite a few dropped out then. This is taken from the court notes of one of the court cases that was against him. All credit to the 3HO Sikhs themselves - they take all the crap for being white and wearing bana, they do all the yoga and sikhi, they also are the inspiring ones. They do all the work that keeps bhajan afloat. So as far as I'm concerned, 3HO is the product of 3HO Sikhs. If bhajan had any humility he'd liquidate those whopping bejewelled broaches and rings he's had made with 3ho Sikh sweat and money, and humbly bow down to his followers and put all credit on them! just my thoughts anyway!

WaheGuruji ka Khalsa WaheGuruji Ki Fateh I'd say Bhagat Puran Singh truly understood Guru Gobind Singh ji's message of fearlessness in the face of injustice. If he was scared he would not have lived such a day-to-day lifestyle, living only as a vessel for others. If that isn;t giving your head to the Guru, what is! I have to say, for me he was and is one of the most inspiring Sikhs alongwith other important Sewapanthis, who negated their own ego to help others. Living with no attachments and utter humility, as a vessel for God's manifestation is the path of Brahmgiani and seeing through maya.

WaheGuruji Ka Khalsa WaheGuruji Ki Fateh The one thing I'm not trying to do is get into an argument (as ridiculous as that sounds!), merely present another angle on this issue. On the issue of Teja Singh Bhasour, agreed, Bhai Randhir Singh is very clear in his autobiography that he refuses to meet with him after Bhasaur was excommunicated from the panth. However, that is missing the point that Bhai Randhir Singh was greatly influenced by Teja Singh Bhasaur's mindset and approach to Sikhi that was always radical. Again, you have slightly missed the point with my comments about the Singh Sabha. Firstly, about how they were anti-British during the independance movement. Of course they were, but that doesn't negate the fact that they were created much earlier with the aim of representing Sikhs and Sikh interests to the Colonial regime in British India. I am neither comparing the SGPC/Akalis of old and modern in terms of their political behaviour, but on their ideologies. As for the Nirankaris and Naamdharis, well the Singh Sabha movement was an extension of those reform movements in the first place. Both started as reform groups. For example, Nirankaris are acredited with introducing (or reinstating) the Anand marriage ceremony (remember that as far as Nirankaris are concerned the Nirankaris that caused the hoo haa in 1978 were 'Sant Nirankaris', an unrepresentative group from the larger body of Nirankaris - see the work of Dr. Man Singh Nirankari). On the issue of rehitnamae. This is a whopper of an issue, mainly becuase there are loads of them and they don't always agree, yet most claim they are the words of Sri Guru Gobind Singh ji. The way the SGPC and Taksal for instance have got around this issue is to have taken a pick'n'mix attitude, selecting the bits that sound about right from numerous original rehitnamae to create a new one. For example, if you put so much authority on Desa Singh's rehitnama as you have quoted above, then you must also accept his tentative acceptance of eating goat! (See verse 105 - he rejects killing the goat in the langar itself but states that if you want meat, kill it away from the langar and eat it where it was killed) Other Snatan groups have their own rehit - the Nirmalae have their own rehitnama called Sudharm Marg Granth, equally in Sant Rattan Mala the Sewapanthis have a form of rehit stated for them.

WaheGuruji Ka Khalsa WaheGuruji Ki Fateh A response to some of the points posed above: A crucial point here is that the Sikh youth must always question what people tell them! You must go and read a lot and speak to a lot of people who actually know what they are talking about. No point listening to what it's like to drive a Rolls Royce from someone who drives a Robin Reliant. Sarbloh.info website is pretty water tight from what I have read. The reason being, is that they have gone directly to the sources themselves. There will always be variance among the individuals that make up a sampraday, but the general traditions are well presented. One thing that is very clear from this discussion so far is that a lot of Sikh youth have a very rudimentry understanding of Snatan dharma. For example, the role and status with which devas and devis have within snatan dharm is complex to say the least. They work on many levels and are not simply 'Gods and Godesses'. In some ways they can be understood as representing attributes of God and this comes through in Japuji Sahib 'Guru Isar Guru Gorakh Guru Brahma Guru Parwati Mai'. In otherwords, the Guru is the snatan trinitiy of Brahma Vishnu and Shiva - creation, preservation and destruction - the cycle of life. The fact that Sarbloh info has pictures of these respective deities does not mean 'worhsip idols' as one poster has claimed, as much as other sites having paintings of Guru Nanak Dev do not claim 'worship him as an idol'. Another poster suggested that there was clarity from the rehitnamae saying 'do not eat meat'. Not really. I recommend reading the original rehitnamae (for example 'Rehitnamae' by Piara Singh Padam). Some don't mention it, some wholeheartedly accept it (Prem Sumarag for example), some are hesitantly in favour (Desa Singh Rehitnama), although reserved. As for anti-Singh Sabha prachar and anti-AKJ stance of these websites...this is a larger debate. Really, when it comes down to it, the Singh Sabha movement and the eventual formation of the SGPC and AKJ were simply a reconstruction of Sikhi. One of the key objectives of this reform was to create a separate religious identity that could be easily pigeon-holed for the British. In otherwords, the Singh Sabha aimed at creating a Sikh orthodoxy, by pointing out and destroying Sikh heterodoxy. A clear-cut Sikhism, with one defined orthodoxy, would allow one organisational body to represent this faith (of only one correct interpretation - see SGPC rehit maryada) and liase with the British - i.e. the SGPC! What would they gain? The monetary and political power of every Gurudwara and political influence with the British. All they had to do was remove anything that could be contestable. The extremity of this mindset was Teja Singh Bhasaur, close friend of Bhai Randhir Singh. His group went as far as wishing to remove any other religious identity from Sikhi including the bhagat bani in Sri Guru Granth Sahib. Modern day AKJ are a product of the Singh Sabha movement and uphold much of the Singh Sabha's mindset, although taken to an extreme, as a desire to create one strict orthodoxy of orthodoxies. This redefining of Sikhi led to 'the baby being thrown out with the bath water'. The decline of the bangas, the rejection of much of Dasam bani, the death of the spiritual schools within Sikhi, the decline of Raag kirtan, the declining influence of sampraday, the decay of Sikhi's links with other traditions, most importantly the rejection of the multi-faceted Sikhi for one orthodoxy. For Snatan Sikhs, history does not support the idea of one type of Sikh. Guru Gobind Singh never ensiaged this. Take for example the Nirmalae and Sewapanthis. Both began with Guru Gobind Singh ji's hukam, yet both were exempt from wearing shaster. They were still however part of the Khalsa. They represented different aspects of his Sikhs. The sewapanthis were those who were utterly humble, philanthropists and pascifists, who would rather give their head than take one (hence Bhai Khanaiyya's infamous episode in which a Sikh asked him what his sword was for, he said to give to his opponent to cut of his own head, when brought before Guruji, Guru Gobind Singh hugged him and said 'you truly are a Sikh of my father' and took away his sword). Does this mean Sewapanthis are not 'Sant-Sapai'? Again, no, in that by devoting your life to the upliftment of the people through charity, and by looking to the examples set by such greats as Bhai Jagta Sahib, it is clear that they were fueled by the same fearlessness and determination to protect and uplift the weak. Equally the Nirmalae represented those Sikhs who were thirsting for jnaan, the scholars seeking spiritual knowledge. Again Guru ji created their panth. A lot of what has been written about Snatan Sikhi so far has only suggested that this movement is Sikhi being taken back into Hinduism. Yet this is again a vast oversimplification. Sikhi from its inception looked beyond politico-religious identity - 'there is no Hindu there is no Muslim'. The fact that Snatan Sikhs were able to take inspiration from the Vedas, Upanishads, from the Quran, from Sufi texts, etc is testimony to the level of spiritual insight Sikhs had. We ourselves read the texts from other faiths when we go to the Gurdwara, in the form of Bhagat bani. There are scholars out there who are still arguing about the construct of 'Hinduism'. There is no Hinduism, only a group of religious traditions from the Indian subcontinent with similar concepts (much like the shared concepts of Islam, Judaism and Christianity). Everything falls within this snatan dharm, as it is the collective religiousness of humanity. If you look to the mystical writings of any faith you will find the same themes croping up, namely the universality of human religious experience and the realisation that God and creation are one and the same. As for the claim that Snatan Sikhi is yet another attempt to divide Sikhs, again I would argue the opposite. Snatan sikhi is the only hope for Sikhi unifying as a unity of traditions. There is lots to read about and much to learn. But its important not to get too lost in history. We must return to present and battle with our ego. The means to accomplishing this are varied and each has it's value. We should soak wisdom up like sponges not be closed and dead like stones. I'll finish with a shabad from Hazrat Sai Hadi Bakhsh Miskeen from the Sindh-based Sufi Jahaniyan lineage, it should sound familiar: 'Neither the Hindu realised the Truth, Nor did the Muslim. Only they realised the Truth Who went beyond both Love made me go beyond religion I am neither Hindu nor Muslim Love of Beloved made me forget religion, I have lost all awareness, My mind is fixed on Naam only I crossed the barriers of finite, went and saw the difficult plane What do the folks know about love? The religion of love is unique, It is egoless, supreme and free from doubts, and is absorption in ecstacy for ever. Raise the slogan of Truth, O Miskeen Suceed in love of the Beloved You are bestowed with the boon of love'