HarjasDevi

Oh. Are you calling that as "deceit?" I said in leadership role and influential and from families which controlled Gurudwaras throughout reign of Maharaj Ranjit Singh BEFORE there was an SGPC and Akal Takhat. But that is not "deceit." All of the above articles are written from a Singh Sabha perspective, yet they reveal one clear thing. The sanatan/Hindu Khatri families WERE influential and exerting leadership role on Sikhism especially during time of Maharaja Ranjit Singh until Singh Sabha Reform. This is the time in political history when the Khatri sanatan influenced vanished. But to deny it was ever there, or to call that as "deceit" is real ignorance of history. The fact that ALL Guru Sahibaan and their families were Khatri is not understood to mean these families exerted influence and power over political and spiritual life of Sikhs prior to Singh Sabha and Gurdwara Reform Movement? The mere existence of sanatan Dera babas all over Punjab is reflecting the persistence of that influence. And the conflicts with Tat Khalsas and dominant Jatt community is directly traceable to it. Please tell me how I am "deceitful" on this point or apologize for public nindya which accuses without fact. Here is a very interesting article NOT from the Singh Sabha perspective. Refute it factually with citations (and spare the propagandistic insults) if you can. Otherwise making broad-sweeping claims of "deceit" are mere accusation without substance, akin to lies.

I read the article. I have no side with either fenech or the criticisms. However the quote was a very good description of the Singh Sabha mentality. I have read Dr. Pashaura Singhs work also. I don't take any personal side with him or against his views. But I do think he raises some valid objections worthy of intelligent analysis and conversation. Why are you always personally attacking my qualities and washing my karmas veer ji? What is wrong to love Hindu philosophy? So many on this forum express contempt and hatred for it, yet you say nothing. I try and express love and you degrade me personally and make sweeping generalizations that I am this, I represent that, starting with I am a Hindutva RSS hijra, as I recollect. Yes, wonderful spiritual jeevan you have veer ji. Your words are full of evil-minded low thoughts. The article was from a Singh Sabha perspective. I agreed some points and disagreed others, as is my right. I am NOT Fenech. Just as you are no Bhakta. Tell me, in all this smearing of poo, exactly what is defensible in the Singh Sabha repression of sanatan granths and teaching of avtaray please? Since, that is the subject I was discussing and not my sig. Why are you completely incapable of discussing any of the legitimate points I wrote about having to do with avataray and Satguru and demean to such rude and hateful, spiteful personal attacks? Is this your idea of defending Sikhi by trashing someone like me on every post?

You should at least have respect for spiritual culture of Guru Sahib and the high spiritual sanatan philosophies which became part of Gurbani and try not to equate them with "shit" which isn't humorous at all, it's hostile.

Sure thing. But YOU are the nindak who accuse me of deceit and cowardly refuse to explain it here and only hide behind skirt of other thread and broad assumptions to be made by it. Is that what you people are calling murder these days? And what about the 16 other wounded sangat members jio? Was that their comeuppance too? And who are you to judge that you do not have your own comeuppance according to Divine Plan? And you are so certain he is a nindak that you are willing to become his nindak on internet without proof beyond rumors? Name and published details or it is just another unsubstantiated rumor. If a murder was committed it becomes a public legal matter, not grounds for vengeance vendetta. These "khalsas" went into a temple filled with families, elders, women and children PREPARED WITH GUNS? To "defend" on someone else's property? Are you insane? That's called an armed ATTACK, not a defense. What fancy footwork your lips do. Bhagats "beat" and shoot into crowd of unarmed women and children?" Bhagats of the Lord commit murder of the unarmed? You are completely corrupted. The insanely shameful actions speak louder than any of my words veer ji. Or should we all go buy bulletproof vests as part of temple wear in case some "bhagats" get notion to defend themselves. Remember this truism: "The end result is your truest intent."

Dharm is something beyond Hinduness and pertains to spiritual righteousness and Divine Law/Hukam. Hindu Mat is a mixture of Divine Sruti spiritual Truths and man-made interpretations of those teachings. One can fault Hindu culture or particular interpretations of sages or sampraday for particular views. But one can never fault Dharama. Because Dharama just like Divine Sruti is eternal and coming from the God. But also it is shameful that desi people spit on desi heritage, especially as it is even heritage of own Sikhi culture and Guru Sahibaan. Where does it say in Gurbani that Sikhs should mock Hindus? Because seems very common.

When Hindu sampradaya such as Vaishnav is worshipping Bhagan Krishna, for example. They are worshipping Him in aspect as the Supreme and not any other demi-gods. Krishna is defined per Bhagavad-Gita, Uttara Gita and Srimad Bhagavatam as the Absolute which was in human form. So they are NOT worshipping the SARGUN physical body of Krishna which has DIED. They use Krishan NAAMs and titles, such as Keshava, Murali, Mukunda, Gopala, Govinda to represent QUALITIES of the ABSOLUTE which is defined as BOTH niragun and sargun and including having power over Mayajog. When Guru Gobind Singh Ji says DON'T worship Him, is it as Guru Jyoti-Jyot which is merged with AKAAL? Or is it as physical body which is corruptible in time and subject to decay of which there are millions of Krishnas, and Raams and even millions of Guru Gobind Singhs (there were 10 physical forms of same Guru Nanak Jyot) on millions of worlds and throughout the ages? But is it the same as Do not worship the Divine who is beyond form? The form is a servant of the Supreme Totality. The Supreme is not a servant of the phycial materiality. The mistake so often made is Singhs often equate Hindu Mat as being worship of idols, stones, false devte and not the REAL AKAAL. But Guru Ji was correcting WRONG practices of Hindu Mat from within Sruti truths of Vedantic and Puranic teaching. Only WE in arrogance look down at Hidu's as fake and superstitious and so avoid having to look in the mirror at our own ritualism and hypocrisies. But we are not fair to actually Hindu scriptures teaching on this subject of avtaray, otherwise these questions would not even arise. "Only He Himself knows Himself." What does it mean? It means the Satguru is ONE with God. It does not mean the personality, the physicality is some fake pakhundi god. It means the Bramgyaan, the mukta is already no longer Himself, small ego, jeeva. He is supremely free soul. An Avatar is BORN already liberated and does not need a Satguru. An Avatar is BORN already having God-perception because He is JYOTI-JYOT, Light from the Divine Supreme nirgun which manifests in sansaar. Do not do personality worship! But worship the Divine Reality. Let me ask you this, does Guru Gobind Singh Ji ANYWHERE state that He is NOT an avatar? And can you explain why Gurbani calls Guru Nanak Jyot as avatar for kaliyuga? So mistake is thinking Vaishnavs worship Krishna physical rotted and disappeared body. Mistake is thinking Vaishnavs worship the murthi and not what it is representing as spiritual presence that it represents, reminds, and pervades. And if this is all useless superstitious foolishness, how come Guru Ji gave Light of Truth that Ram NAAM and Krishan NAAM are considered as DIVINE NAAMs in Gurbani? BECAUSE THOSE NAAMS REPRESENT MORE THAN A SARGUN BODY OR PERSONALITY BUT ACTUAL VEHICLES OF THE NIRGUN PRESENCE IN MATERIAL WORLD. Obviously the Vaishnavs are worshipping the Divine Almighty who is described by identifiable characteristics of sarguna such as blue skin, long hair, flute player, with gopis in Vrindavaan? Because Gurbani records these exact same descriptions too as being the Parabrahm. And all of those descriptions have deeply symbolic meanings. For example Radha becomes jealous of the attention Lord Krishna is paying to His flute. So She asks what has the flute done to merit such intimate attention from the Divine Beloved. And Krishna shows Her the flute headlong, and states, "See? It is completely empty." So lesson of the flute is enchanting Divine who steals our hearts with beloved melody, reference to NAAM Jap sound current and sankirtana, and also the surrender of bhagti and bairaag for only He. But we do not understand these beautiful concepts anymore. To us it is lumped together with superstition and worship of fake, mythological gods. We are sooo busy condemning Hindu Mat we take no time and intelligence to determine what is the actual teaching. All stemming from British Raj arrogance and ignorance of Hindu philosophy and translated to English run Christian missionary educational system which established in Panjab and trained the generation of reformers of Singh Sabha anti-sanatan version of Sikhism (Sikhism with an allergy to Desi culture, wisdom heritage and Hindu imagery). A Satguru can only be an avatar because such a one cannot be an ordinary man who has the incredible power of salvation of so many millions of souls across lifetimes. A Guru there may be who is enlightened but not avatar, but a SATGURU of a YUGA MUST be an avatar and incapable of being less. Also such statement is reflecting incredible nirmata of Guru Ji. If you read Gurbani Guru Nanak is always describing Himself as das, dust of the feet of the saints. The GOD HIMSELF is humble. Only we are not. We become offended, proud, murderous over our own honor. The hell one will suffer is due to the fact that physical forms are passing away. To lose Guru's physical body is to lose faith or put faith in the fleeting things, and that is hell/suffering. So put faith in the everlasting things which is the Guru Jyot, which is the Guru GOD, which is AJOONI and AKAAL. But it is wrong to think Guru Sahibaan as separate from Divinity, because then all bani would be just some men's opinions and not capable of carrying anybody across. But Gurbani is Shabad-Jyot, because "only He Himself can know Himself." And therefore Guruji is DIVINE PRESENCE that has manifested in human forms at time in history for our benefit to give us SHABAD kirtan, NAAM, and Guru kirpa, only way of obtaining mukti.

Your poor neech has God Himself in hip pocket but others don't? Wow, are you equating own opinions and understanding of Gurbani as same as Divine?

Guru Nanak Dev Ji took incarnation into Hindu family. Was it punishment? Or do you just revile heritage of Guru Sahib?

I've been busy and the thread seems to have died. What else should be said on it ji? What deceit exactly? Speel it out please. Derailment? The Ravidasi community at Ballen has split from Sikh Panth over the assassination. It is not on point to discus it? Why is answering one comment by person here only derailment but not the comment which was objected? And if placing rumalla at feet was done years ago and so objectionable, why are not string of murders being carried out if that is appropriate solution? I am objecting to the ABHORRENT crimes committed in both cases of assassination of dera babas in front of own sangats. Do you somehow believe it is justified and praiseworthy? Explain then. It is a "discussion" forum after all and the topic is.... Move caused by......yes indeedy....Ravidasi baba asssassination. But I am the queen of derailment /rolls eyes. Are you bringing up issues of other topic (actual derailment) or simply trying to invalidate anything I write, without using God-given intelligence to debate merit or demerit of actual ideas expressed?

Isn't it a little kids saying, "Two wrongs don't make a right?"

And beadbi never takes place in hotels with sharabis, smokers, etc? What is Dharma of using force as last resort hmm? Why haven't their been assassinations of dancehall granthis or even the guy who was caught downloading porn at Harmandir Sahib? But tradition of baba dera sants requires "intervention" of cold-blooded murder of unarmed man in sangat in front of women and children? No. It is HYPOCRITICAL attack on reputation of the baba, just as in case of Darshan Das, in some juvenile pretended belief the more and more slanders, the more people will justify. What happened to Panj Piare and elders of community having concerned PUBLIC (where everyone can see) meetings to correct deficiencies or breach of Maryada? When did gangster thugs replace wisdom in Sikhi? And why only murders of sanatan sants and dera babas and not own sharabis who do public beadbi? It's too convenient an intimidation against sanatan non-Khalsa Sikhs and overwhelming majority of non-Jatt communities. Both marginalized and disrespected communities having no legitimate representation with official seats of (Jatt) Sikh power. And oh yes, we are well acquainted with the terrifically exaggerated INSULTS against Guru Sahib which require juvenile punks to protect and defend honor by murder (except in case of beadbi by stupids in own community who do not face death penalty.) This is prejudiced imbecility at it's finest. Makes the whole world equate Sikhi with Taliban. If a baba puts rumalla to his feet, show the film! All I have seen if crime of placing tilak (not a crime actually, it's in Gurbani). But every time a baba is targeted for murder, he was guilty of slanders, and putting Guru Sahib in suitcase and sitting on it, of everything imaginable...without proof. Tried, convicted, executed in the court of public opinion with no voice in own defense. Did anyone assassinate Sant Ranjit Singh Dhadrianwale for having sangat matathek to him in front of Guru Granth Sahib Ji? No. No one ever dared claim he was deserving of death penalty for that. Yet here you are on public forum defending death penalty over a rumor. How terrible. What a mockery of justice and truth. And murderers of human beings who have NO RIGHT TO JUDGE THEM are honored as "heroes of the Khalsa Panth." Isn't it so? It is heroic to kill the unarmed? No! That is vilest cowardice you are all defending and honoring. Not only that, it is criminal, not respecting Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Guru Granth Sahib is message of love, honor, Dharm, truth, peace, mercy. Not this thugism pretend "Tat Khalsaism." Not at all. Defend some more the evil unpardonable crimes of Ravidasi baba please, and then go execute your own sharabis and wife-beaters and vile fake granthis in own communities if you are not hypocritical and really believe that is authentic Guruji message. And if you do not then be quiet and stop defending MURDER. Ravidasia community is ESTRANGED FROM YOU because of these VILEST ACTIONS OF HATRED AND INTOLERANCE IN SHOOTING UP A GURDHERA WITH WOMEN AND CHILDREN IN IT. IT IS SHAMEFUL. REPREHENSIBLE. TAKE THAT TO THE JAMDHOOT AND DEFEND IT. YOU WILL BE CRYING THEN.

ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦੀ ਆਰਾਧੀਐ ਜਪੀਐ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਮੰਤੁ ॥ gur sabadhee aaraadhheeai japeeai niramal manth || Through the Word of the Guru's Shabad, worship and adore Him, and chant His Pure Mantra. ~SGGS Ji ang 137 ------- ਕੇਵਲ ਨਾਮੁ ਦੀਓ ਗੁਰਿ ਮੰਤੁ ॥ kaeval naam dheeou gur manth || The Guru has given me the Mantra of the Naam, the Name of the Lord. ~SGGS Ji ang 183 ------- ਬੁਰਾ ਭਲਾ ਕੋਈ ਨ ਕਹੀਜੈ ॥ buraa bhalaa koee n keheejai || Do not say that anyone is good or bad. ਛੋਡਿ ਮਾਨੁ ਹਰਿ ਚਰਨ ਗਹੀਜੈ ॥੩॥ shhodd maan har charan geheejai ||3|| Renounce your arrogant pride, and grasp the Feet of the Lord. ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰ ਮੰਤ੍ਰੁ ਚਿਤਾਰਿ ॥ kahu naanak gur manthra chithaar || Says Nanak, remember the GurMantra; ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਵਹਿ ਸਾਚੈ ਦਰਬਾਰਿ ॥੪॥੩੨॥੧੦੧॥ sukh paavehi saachai dharabaar ||4||32||101|| you shall find peace at the True Court. ~SGGS Ji ang 186 Bani is not empowered by containing the beej syllables of the holy NAAM Gurmantra, which pres the Divine and comes from the Sound current of the Nada? I think your "version" of Sikhi is totally in denial of Sikhi teaching. And this is not to make profoundly uneducated and ignorant conclusion that the tantr mantr of aghora sadhus and jado tuna people is the same thing. You cannot manipulate the power of God for one's own selfish ends, is Gurbani lesson. But to deny that bani comes from the Sound Current of the primal Nada is foolishness. This is the very power of Gurmantra to transform the vasanas, inclinations of the mind that perceive the world of duality and give rise to haumai and panj bhootas. So powerful is the Sound Current Divine Presence within bani, Shabad, Naam to be our boat of mukti. Do you know what Naad even is? All Creation arises from the single tone, and is the sargun manifestation of Shabda Brahman. ਗੁਰਦੇਵ ਆਦਿ ਜੁਗਾਦਿ ਜੁਗੁ ਜੁਗੁ ਗੁਰਦੇਵ ਮੰਤੁ ਹਰਿ ਜਪਿ ਉਧਰਾ ॥ guradhaev aadh jugaadh jug jug guradhaev manth har jap oudhharaa || The Divine Guru existed at the primal beginning, throughout the ages, in each and every age. The Divine Guru is the Mantra of the Lord's Name; chanting it, one is saved. ~SGGS Ji ang 250 ਕਰਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਸੰਤ ਮਿਲੇ ਮੋਹਿ ਤਿਨ ਤੇ ਧੀਰਜੁ ਪਾਇਆ ॥ kar kirapaa santh milae mohi thin thae dhheeraj paaeiaa || In their Mercy, the Saints have met me, and from them, I have obtained satisfaction. ਸੰਤੀ ਮੰਤੁ ਦੀਓ ਮੋਹਿ ਨਿਰਭਉ ਗੁਰ ਕਾ ਸਬਦੁ ਕਮਾਇਆ ॥੩॥ santhee manth dheeou mohi nirabho gur kaa sabadh kamaaeiaa ||3|| The Saints have given me the Mantra of the Fearless Lord, and now I practice the Word of the Guru's Shabad. ਜੀਤਿ ਲਏ ਓਇ ਮਹਾ ਬਿਖਾਦੀ ਸਹਜ ਸੁਹੇਲੀ ਬਾਣੀ ॥ jeeth leae oue mehaa bikhaadhee sehaj suhaelee baanee || I have now conquered those terrible evil-doers, and my speech is now sweet and sublime. ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਮਨਿ ਭਇਆ ਪਰਗਾਸਾ ਪਾਇਆ ਪਦੁ ਨਿਰਬਾਣੀ ॥੪॥੪॥੧੨੫॥ kahu naanak man bhaeiaa paragaasaa paaeiaa padh nirabaanee ||4||4||125|| Says Nanak, the Divine Light has dawned within my mind; I have obtained the state of Nirvaanaa. ~SGGS Ji ang 206 To ignorantly confuse early purataan Gursikhi, or even Sanatana Dharma with "brahmanism" is a mistake. Sanatan teachings in Sikhi reflect the highest and purest truths coming from the greatest saints and bhagats. These were part of the REFORM movement AGAINST brahmanism and were most often Vaishnav Ram-naamis of low caste or mleccha birth, and hence not ritualized "brahmins' by any stretch of Bhasauric imagination. But if you have some Bhasauria mentality to purge, deny, reject and otherwise marginalize the sanatan granths which have always been part of the Sikh Quom, who can stop you? Who can educate you? "There are none so blind as those who will not see." But after you have removed validity from all the historical granths and bani, the traditional sanatan paintings which the Singh Sabhia repression has marginalized so completely that today's average Sikhs are IGNORANT of their existance. Or even official BAN of such granths, as case of Gurbilas which EVEN Sikh Rehit Maryada is derived from these sources, reflects only fear, hypocrisy, anti-Hindu propaganda distortions and stupidity. And that is a rather shoddy and easily toppled caricature of "religion." These Granths are historical part of Sikhi. Only Singh Sabha repression has wiped them from legitimacy and memory. And only after 100 years of tinkering could SGPC come up with an acceptable translation of Shri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji. Why not allow impartial scholars to prove what is authentic and accurate? What a breath of fresh air to remove these dictatorial politician sadhs from stranglehold of political power who dare define what is "true Sikhism" as only their own narrow caste-based self-interested domination. From them the world has gained only persecution of deras, imposition of Jatt based institutions and (ignored) casteism while hypocritically pointing finger of blame at "brahmins' who haven't been in power in India for ages. Of course, brahmin is insulting term meaning every single Hindu. Yet themselves are truly biggest ritualistic brahmins, with ritualistic SRM based on..... /drum roll please..... YES!!!! THE MYSTERIOUSLY MISSING SANATAN GRANTHS!!! What a joke you are. Vaheguru Ji Ka Khalsa VaheGuru Ji Ki Fateh! V= Vishnu, Vasudeyva H = Hari Krishna G = Gobinda R = Rama You are giving Fateh with a traditional Sanatan Hindu Mat Vaishnav Gurmantra. I am embarrased for you.

I don't care to waltz down that path because it's unrelated to the topic and ridiculous, same as I won't bother to explain what was happening historically with brahmins and Buddhists as it defies imagination how it pertains to the thread. Did you read my new signature? "Sikh scholars Kesar Singh Chhiber, Rattan Singh Bhangu, Giani GianSingh, Santokh Singh, et al, were products of the two-century timespan, [just after the Guru-period], between early eighteenth to earlytwentieth centuries, whenthe impostors and pseudo-Sikhs, that Dr. Fenech's fraternity callsSanatan Sikhs, controlled Sikhism and corrupted its theology,religiosity and history with Avatar-ism, occultism, idolatry andmythology; and befuddled the Sikh psyche. Theliterary works of these Sikh authors reflect the literary trends andparadigms that were more akin to Hindu scriptures than Sikh creed andhistory. The concerned Singh Sabha intellectuals had to cleanse Sikhism of this contamination and restore it to its originality..." (~Louis E. Fenech Insinuates Militancy in Sikh Martyrdom Tradition, Charnjit Singh Bal) More personal insults. You people are a delightful bunch.

THAT is a lie and a nindya. Gurbani Truth doesn't rest on Kartarpur Bir or Banno Bir or whether one was earlier or not or whether one is a version of the other or not, or whether one could be older which no longer exists. Which the most original? If you question, if you have a concern regarding translation or perhaps there remains some missing bani we have yet to find or acknowledge... This means the same as Guru Granth Sahib is INAUTHENTIC? Perhaps your faith has never confronted the skeptical reality of scripture scholarship before. Singh Sabha dramatically changed purataan Gursikhi. That's not an incredible conspiracy, it's documented historical fact. but you can call me anything you like if it makes you feel better.

Are you serious? My point was that he was a HINDU his whole life and then became a Sikh and shared some history about the sanatan linkages in Sikh history. You deserve a crown for derailment king. Go eat more anti-Hindu onions and garlic. Khatris I was referring to was SIKHS from own Guru families contrasted with Rajput Hindus. Everyone complains I write too much and never stops asking the 20 million unrelated questions. I don't care to look up names of Khatri leaders. Do you disagree the Khatri families had prominence during kingdom of Maharaja Ranjit Singh or traditional guardianship of the Gurdwaras? If you do not disagree, why are we running around the apple tree? If you do disagree, at this point, I don't even care. I'm trying to figure out a response for some Buddhist decline a thousand years ago as having any relevance to Sikh Hindu relations in belief system or association with 1984. I say, "Sikhs philosophy is derived from Hindus." Singhs say, "No they don't Guru Ji REJECTED everything Hindu." I say, "No He didn't" They say, "Yes, He did." I say, No, He didn't." They say, Yes, He did." ad infinitum until everyone is dizzy. Somehow to even discuss is grounds for paranoia about a State sponsored deliberate destruction of Sikh identity (through words which no one bothers to read) just like 1000 years ago (as if Hindu's are the world's evil villains and never mind 1000 years ago majority who are Sikhs today are descended from those very same "hateful" Hindus and their evil onions.) I wanted to talk about vibration and NAAM. Not one person commented on spiritual discussion. Everyone wanted to jump on the Hindu onion merry-go-round using arsenal of kitchen sink, assorted apples, garlics, some anti-Buddhist rhetoric and of course the token RSS allegations. While this is the most illogical forum in history, at least it is entertaining. No one can harm your identity. You don't realize how powerful you are. You can win sheer Armies of evil brahmin Hindus and RSS provocateurs through frustration, misdirection and derailment alone. At this point I sincerely don't believe that a single Hindu gives a damn about Sikh identity. I'm only trying to address deliberate insults and prejudice or open dialogue of serious spiritual topics about philosophy. And repeatedly I'm called to answer the 9 million unrelated objections. Last but not least a quote lifted from a website about some Dal Khalsa rally in 1981 (as if Dal Khalsa aren't propagandistic hot-heads themselves) taking about how mobs of thousands of Hindu thugs got together simply to make fun of Sikh appearance and tell Sikhs they don't deserve special status for Amritsar (as if a mob had the authority to grant or to deny) and they should leave the country how anyone can prove it and what it has to do with spiritual philosophy??? More likely Pro-Khalistani Dal Khalsa pissed off a lot of folks and were agitating to gain sympathy for their movement and everyone is swallowing (including on Hindu side) loads of crap intending and suceeding in drive a wedge between two communities and causing problems. Khalistan, rightly or wrongly, is a pipe dream. It's not worth dying for because it doesn't exist. It will never exist. Khalsa Raj will rule whole of India and whole of world. And they won't be manmukh political people, they will be holy. So anything about Khalistan agitations and mob riots and Buddhists decline 1000 years ago means nothing. I'm reading Hindu scriptures because they contain high, noble and beautiful truths. Not because I think the average Hindu has any enlightenment and is not himself drowning in an ocean of suffering and delusion. I'm trying to discuss RELATIONSHIP between communities, not the 50 million differences, the miri piri, the Amritsar issue, the plumbing issue, the genocide issue, any of that. I'm trying to discuss those age-old Truths which help mankind get out of the trap that just leads to more of the same. Because veer jis, this is really hell on earth. And we have got to make a start at being a part of what brings people together. I don't know what else to say. I'm not guilty of the 20 million crimes. I'm not any representative of Hindu religion who you can slander or blame. I'm not talking the side of wrong-doers. I'm simply trying to open doors to discuss beautiful and holy spiritual philosophy on a forum. You know people get sick, loved ones are dying, and they look to articles that can uplift them. But we are all wasting the opportunity to discuss ridiculous nonsense that leaves everyone feeling bad because it harps upon only the worst and ugliest things. What a waste of internet space.

Family of Guru's does not hold Gurgaddhi thought there have been several historical attempts to gain that influence. My point was to present a broad overview of history for the Singh who thought Banda Singh Bahadur Ji was a Khatri, and a little intro into the change between the Sikhi under Maharaja Ranjit Singh and the Sikhi of today. I'm not for or against simply to present factual history. I'm not a supporter of any claimant of Guru's families. But I don't believe we can overlook their influence during purataan times as various sants and dera Gurus have come from them and reflects a distinct tradition within Sikhi Panth which was never before violently oppressed. And since they are stuck in time as concerning family traditions and beliefs and artifacts, we get a sanataan view of a distantly past variation of Sikhi than modernly known. Guru's bani contains the Shabd mantra empower by Satguru, and the teachings of the NAAM. I have no doubt about this. But this doesn't mean mischievous translations have been made by politically motivated Singh Sabhias who may have preferred to whitewash the Vedantic concepts and translate them along more acceptable lines. I have simply mentioned the FACT there is a controversy, and it surrounds the Singh Sabhias. I happen to believe that Gurmat rests on ETERNAL TRUTHS and can never be shaken by the weaknesses of men. But those eternal Truths can be misunderstood. It is a critical article of faith for the Singh Sabhia version of religion that the corpus of Gurbani is completely free of doubt and that the matter has been settled. There is possibility of editing on part of Singh Sabha scholars that the versions and translations presented today are view from a biased viewpoint. But is the official version of events really so neat and secure? Bhai Banno himself wrote in those verses. Problem solved! If it was this easy, why would it even be a controversy? The controversy is real all right, and the solution isn't so "tidy." Hmmm, could it be we really don't KNOW why there is a discrepancy of the bani in different birs? But the fact remains, there is a discrepancy. The Pure and undisputed original bir which all the leading Panthic Authorities accept as original... has obliterated portions. I find that creates a point of doubt. Now, a judgment can't be made on the basis of it, it could be true as the Scholars have explained the sampadan kala editing may be completely innocuous and have been the standard method of editing during Guru Sahibaan times. The explanation given by SGPC is that it is a rough draft and a work in progress. And perhaps that IS the case. But, during a time of Singh Sabha revisionism, the existence of any editing of the original corpus does raise at least some doubt. Particularly when the version of the bir doesn't match up with the other birs. the fact remains despite the scholarship, and it is brilliant, I've read a number of criticisms of Hew Mcleod and Dr. Pashaura Singh's work. A nagging question, for me, still remains. Because no matter how anyone explains it, the bir is still obviously edited, whether by Bhai Gurdas Ji, or by Dhirmal and family, or by brahmin mahants or by Singh Sabhas later. No one really knows. I make no accusations whatsoever to simply state that there exists a controversy. That much is documented fact. His crime? He dared to have an opinion against the prevailing view and write a research paper on it. The solution? To completely invalidate him as an uneducated idiot and an ignorant with no right to an opinion (sound familiar). It's quite an interesting that opposing views are not tolerated. And none dare question without punishing censorship, personal attack and ruin to follow as a consequence. It's reminds me of the Shakespearean phrase, "Methinks he doth protest too much." It makes me wonder if the briliant scholarly answers themselves are not enough. Surely the eternal Truth isn't afraid of questions and will not wither under analysis. It doesn't need protests and morchas, bully and assasination goondas to hold it together. But that's just my opinion. Right or wrong, the controversy remains. It's perhaps not terribly significant as I read Gurbani and find a remarkable message of solace and beauty. What concerns me is perhaps the overreaction of the Panth to perceived threats and response to blackball and ruin people who challenge the prevailing Panthic opinions. And THAT to me is the real controversy. Everyone has opinions. But it will be a long time in a religiously hostile environment to ever have a professionally critical evaluation of the doubts and controversies without inviting baiting, personal slanders and hostility to silence any doubts or questions. What people don't realize is such tendencies don't clarify doubts to anyone, they magnify them. People begin to wonder what alterations might be hiding behind the hysterical overreaction. Just an opinion. Nothing more. I have no proof of anything. And at this point in time, the scholarship supporting the Kartarpur Bir is the best. But for myself, because of the aggressive Singh Sabha reactions, my doubt remains that something may be wrong somewhere. And not only for spurious bani like Mira Bai found in the Banno recension, but missing from the Kartarpur Bir. I am inclined to side with the prevailing Udasi opinion on which Mcleod and Pashaura Singh's thesis was based: that the Kartarpur Bir is not the original. "1. Harnam Das Udasin's book came out in 1969 and 1972 claiming that this Bir is not the original Birprepared by Bhai Gurdas under the supervision of Guru Arjan. It is adefective version of Bhai Banno's version. He doubts the veracity ofGuru's autograph and it contains thousand of errors. He says that thisand the Damdami original Birs are not available."

Baba Banda Singh Bahadur Ji? He was not a Khatri. He was a Rajput. The Reform AGAINST Khatri influence took place about 150 or so years later. You are forgetting the political leadership of the Sikh Quom based around the Khatri descendents of Guru's families and their scholars. And it was this element of Sikh society that attained real prominence under Maharaja Ranjit Singh. The spiritual leadership of the Panth was the Akali Nihang Singhs. Akali Nihangs were the real Tat Khalsas, and traditionally they had sanatan orientation and world-view accepting devatay and avtaray in way similar to Nirmalay and Udasi sampradayas. And this can be seen in the granths they preserved FROM the newly authoritative Singh Sabhias and their iconoclastic editing and revisionist history. Nihangs for example have always done parkash of all three Granths of Guru Sahib, with Adi Grath given primacy. The modern conflict in the Panth today is hugely a backlash against the Singh Sabha revision of history, even sincere Singhs honestly believe concepts written in Shri Dasm Granth are "against Sikhi message." So thorough has been the Singh Sabhia dominance of Sikhism and alienation from traditional sanatan world-view that some Singhs today don't even recognize Guruji's own bani. It was the Singh Sabhias who were always imitating a revisionist version of Nihang maryada. So developed people who looked like Nihangs but were utter and complete Tat Khalsas who did not understand the meaning of the Adi Chand they wore and considered jhatka meat and use of intoxicants like Sukhnidaan a bujjar kurehit, even as Nihang Jatha preserved the proper maryada for Jhatka and Sukhnidaan direct from Guru Gobind Singh Ji. From this we get banning of granths like Gur Bilas, editings and questionable translations galore (just investigate the controversy between the Kartarpur bir and the Banno bir and the Sri Dasam Granth translation. Even Prem Sumarag was "edited" at one point by Bhai Randhir Singh removing all the sections which pertained to Jhatka), complete marginalizing and ignoring puratan sources, literally whitewashing and destroying traditional murals and art-work which had Vedantic themes devatay and avtaray, and revision of Sikh history WITHOUT the messy, loose ends of the rich Sant Mat Baba Dera tradition and Khatri Mahants. Banda Singh Bahadur Ji was a Rajput Hindu his whole life before becoming the Guru's Sikh. Historically the Khatris had an influential leadership role as Guru's families and Sanskrit scholars and Vedantic educated Mahants were in control of the state religious institutions, not DamDami Taksal Sahib. Of course, if goes without saying that during Sikh Misl days Jatts were the key Generals. But, one aspect of Sikh history which is so often overlooked that it's not even recognizeable is those Mahants who were custodians of Gurdwaras tended to be from Guru's own familes and inner circle of pandits. They didn't just come out of nowhere or from Hindus taking adbvantage of Sikhs while they were fighting jangs. This is why the earliest purataan writings include such a definite sanatan ideological compinent. They ARE Vedantic in world-view, but that is not coming from corruptions with Hindus but from within Guru's own families and Court. And that is why during reign of Maharaja Ranjit Singh you have an unquestionably Khatri leadership presence. Yes, of course Maharaja Ranjit Singh was Jati and most Generals were Jatts but the point is you are ignoring that the Vedantic educated Khatris from Guru's own families were in leadership regarding the purataan influence over Gurdwaras and writings. Obviously the Sikh society was not caste based. And so there was fluidity of positions and influence based on merit which made it truly great and unprecedented Kingdom. But there is a strong tribal influence in the history. One thing Tat Khalsa Reform has effectively done is sweep the Khatri influence under the carpet. Not out of caste tensions, but out of rejection for the sanatan Vedantic world-view. A prime example of this is that Banda Singh Bahadur Ji was elevated to the 11th Guru by his men, who were called the Bandais. This was rejected by the Panth and the Bandais got absorbed back into the general Panth with a small sect remaining one of the earliest sectarian offshoots. So the roots of the sanatan Dera Baba offshoot tendancy within the Sikhi history goes back to very early times, with the first being Baba Shri Chand. In this article the writer uses Tat Khalsa to describe the Sikhs who opposed the Bandais, but this is not the political movement of Tat Khalsas which originiated in late 1800's as a reaction to overthrow the power and influence of the Khatri families and the Mahants and expunge Sanatan Vedantic heritage from Sikhism. Now the article is biased from the Tat Khalsa view, claiming the masands had been corrupted Sikhi practice and tradition, evidence being "idols." However, this account doesn't explain why "murthis" were known to be installed in Gurdwaras all throughout the time period of Maharaja Ranjit Singh and no one objected. Murthi-like Gul-Sahsars held by prominent Misl leaders as spoken of in purataan granth Prem Sumarag and seen in rare photos, but the tradition and memory of it has been erased. No one objected to the murals in Gurdwaras of Vedantic imagery, devatay and avtaray... until the destruction of the empire of Maharaja Ranjit Singh... and the British agitations against the growing popularity of the Arya Samaj in counteracting the Christian missionaries and uniting Indian National pride. THEN, you had a Sanatan Singh Sabha quickly overthrown and replaced by a TAT KHALSA SINGH SABHA which has been the iconoclastic intolerant voice of True Sikhism ever since, with help from British money and power. And you saw the complete erosion of Khatri influence and the ascension of Jatt footprint in Singh Sabha institutions and Jathas such as Akal Takhat Sahib, SGPC, and DDT-AKJ. Now this is history, not opinion. But the Akal Takhat did not even exist as a power base until the rise of the Singh Sabhas. When Maharaja Ranjit Singh was disciplined, it was not by Akal Takhat panj pirare, but by Nihang jathedar Akali Phulla Singh Ji. So with the rise of the Singh Sabhias you saw a huge shift in power, most notably the fifth Takht being removed from traditional Nihang authority to DamDami Taksal, yes, established as a Sikh missionary Tat Khalsa institution and amended to the heritage of the traditional one. Singh Sabha Tat Khalsas appended the traditional institution of DamDami Taksal into a Tat Khalsa missionary ideological center and became alienated in large measure from the purataan sanatan past while ascending to Sikh political power and influence, i.e., becoing the Fifth Takht in 1966. Takhat DamDama Sahib I do not deny Sikhs are own separate community. That is obvious. What I disbelieve is that Sikhs are denying own RELATIONSHIP to Hindu Dharm. Guruji may be a jewel among fruit trees, but Sikhs are still in the family of trees. Sanatana Dharma is the family of Dharmic trees. Hindu Dharm, Buddhi Dharm, Jain Dharm, Sikh Dharm are all Dharmic Trees. I don't get what the problem is other than breaking down into basic political greivances and hatreds between communities. I don't see how this has the authority to negate the clear relationships other than it plays into the same Tat Khalsa bugaboo of revising and whitewashing all the sanatan associations and linkages. Even as Jews, Christians and Muslims may have political grievances and hate each other, nobody is denying the clear relationship between them. They are clearly related but TOTALLLY DIFFERENT IDENTITY AS WELL. To be part of Sanatana Dharma and related to Hindu Dharm doesn't take anything awya from Sikhi it GIVES IT a richer heritage which is more ancient and in line with all the Puranic stories shared with us in Gurbani. Thus is is GURMAT. But even word Gurmat got hijacked to mean that which rejects bipraan tradition translated to mean ALL Hindu Mat, including correction and reforms of bipraan abuses such as Bhakti Reform Movement of the bhagats whose bani is part of Gurbani. My point in this post was not to provoke hostility. I posted in the Hindu section because I wanted to share some Sanatan writings and show how they parallel with Sikhi teaching without degenerating into a debate about correctness of Singh Sabha views. This thread was moved from there and hence became a controversial provocation of Singh Sabhia viewpoints notoriously incapable of TOLERATING THE VALIDITY OF ANY DIFFERENT INTERPRETATION OF SIKHISM, EVEN REJECTING AND DENYING THE SANATAAN HERITAGE.

What's wrong with the comparison? The God in nirgun aspect manifests the created sansaar through sargun agency of devatay. Doesn't Gurbani say Brahma created? Yet we know it was AKAAL. So AKAAL uses the agency of Brahma as He uses agency of Krishna as He uses agency of Das Avtaray to bring Justice and right Dharma when tumbling down. You say no Sikh Sampraday shares this definition. I'm baffled. We bow to Guru Ji...because Guru Ji is the Almighty manifest. He's sargun so we can perceive the manifestation of Guru God. The Guru God is All-Pervading and there is nowhere He is not. We bow down to the greatness of God. We should worship even single blade of grass. Not the transient form of grass/gunas but the Divine Shakti aliveness which is Divine Light Presence of God shining through it. I never said their were no differences or that Sikhs are not own Panth. I said Sikhs are Hindus (originally Hindustanis, from continent and sharing ethnic heritage and ancient wisdom philosophies) and part of Sanatana Dharma which is Indic religions based on Sruti. IN this context, as Jains, and Buddhists are also in this same category, and Sikhs are far closer to Hindu Mat than either of those, by what LOGIC Sikhs are NOT part of Hindu? I'm trying to emphasize brotherhood and historical/philosophical relationship so all these terrible wounds will heal. Seriously have we gotten to the point of Singhs making videos that justify gunning down an unarmed old man over a tilak? this is craziness. Actually we are becoming equal to the worst by ostracizing and propagating only stereotypes and scapegoats. And this will only lead to violence. What will happen to brotherhood of mankind when you despise your own blood relation more than anybody? We are different! We are different! We are different! In what ways? Have Sikhs become so much more holy that world conscience is pricked by sight of swaggering punks wearing Bhindranwale t-shirts and calling every other as "bimbos," "pakhandis" and "rat worshippers?" These are not Guru Ka Sikh. I assure you. Turiya state sees all as one and no distinctions. Do you think Guru Ji meant to say, "I am not a Muslim I am not a Hindu because I am a Sikh instead? Guru is not a shishya. And the world doesn't need another "religion." It needs an authentically spiritual PATH to God, to ONENESS. When we start to live that authentically spiritual Dharm, then we are truly above the world and it's distinctions and endless separations and hatreds. As long as Sikh community is repressing and denying Hindu heritage it creates a negative unconscious demon in the mind to hate. Really the true spiritual path is about relationship not separation. We are ONE even with a blade of grass. Even our DNA is 99% united with every other living being. But you won't even see relationship with Hindu. "He drew a circle that shut me out Heretic, rebel, a thing to flout But love and I had the wit to win; We drew a circle that took him in." ~Edwin Markham I would touch the feet of Sant Mahapurah Nirmalay Mahant Ram Singh Ji who, with so much peacefulness and loving calm, seemlessly walks among Hindu sadhus in brotherhood totally undisturbed by the fires of hate that divide us as communities. Authentic sant mahapurash don't harbor hate or resentments to fester like cancers. The saints of all religions, if they were to meet would love each other. Because LOVE is the nature of God and the true spiritual message. What amazing words of tenderness and piare Guruji spoke even to Aurangzeb after the murders of his own family in Zafernama. I tell you, we don't understand the amazing Light of God's True nature to dare call ourselves disciples of it. World is hurting! World is crying! World needs Khalsas who make a difference. Evil did not begin and end with Sikh genocide. Light will conquer when we become Light. Light for the whole world. That is the real meaning of Khalsa Raj. You think authentic Khalsas can't stand to be called brother of a Hindu? The way the human mind works, because of our evil inclinations, our panj bhootas, we bring hell to earth by our actions and inactions and by the distortions we settle for. But life is a golden opportunity to wash our karmas, to heal wounds of the suffering, to be better people. We see the horror of the past. It's the story of human history. It's written in our DNA. It's written in our nightmares. It's part of our collective unconscious and past life memories. It's the blackboard on which the Light of God writes teachings of Justice in raw and painful Truth. It shows clearly the failure of our man-made systems of religion to cleanse our minds and hearts. But we can be a better world. We can fight for everybody's Truth and Justice. Satguru Ji is teaching us how, and it's not through messages of disunity so contrary to Gurbani message. http://www.youtube.c...h?v=OPXUeeFXc90

If I said Sikhi is "nothing but" militant Hinduism, then how come I said Sikhi is boat of mukti for the world in kalyug also? Obviously something can't be boat of mukti for the whole world if it is ONLY militant Hinduism. A distinction needs to be intelligently made between a spiritual philosophy which is creating SANTS and a military philosophy which is creating SIPAHIS. As Sikhi is BOTH, it could not be "nothing but" only one thing. He called Himself a Hindu only to show empathy. Okay. At least you admit that he did so. Guru Nanak gave sovereignty to Babur>? Well, in the aspect that Satguru Maharaaj Nanak Dev Ji is Guru GOD, everything is His Divine Lila and incomprehensible to human beings. But in the aspect of Guru Nanak Dev Ji not being a sovereign Himself during role on earth, by what authority did this transferrence of dominion to Babur take place? Is there some documentation you can provide which shows Guru Nanak Dev Ji representing Hindustan gives full authority and dominion over to Babur making him an invited guest to rape, pillage and murder Hindustan in the process of securing Mughal rule? Facts please! Did you get this from reading Baburvaani which condemns Babur as a butcher? How can Guru Nanak Dev Ji's alleged betrayal of Hindustan and collusion with foreign national enemies by handing over the state to Babur make Him a Muslim? A Muslim is he who submits to the only truth that the Koran is the only revealed Word of Allah and Final testament and that Mohammed is His final propeht and messenger. Guru Nanak Dev Ji said this? Where please, it's not in Gurbani. But you are right, as Guru God Satguru Maharaaj has power to do anything and everything happens according to His Divine Will, even bad things. Even the design of creation was to include the Kalyuga. And according to Gurbani Babur represents the corrupted brutality and evil of the kalyuga. So in no way are Guru vaak "honoring" or "rewarding" Babur for those deeds. Buddhism in fact is classified as a Dharmic religion and part of Sanatana Dharma. I have done quite a bit of Abidharma study. They believe in Shunyata which is actually Advaitic and Tantric teaching. The Shunyata (emptiness) is not an absolute emptiness. It's the unions of emptiness and Light. So the emptiness which is the true nature of the atma is Light, after all. What becomes empty are all the personal descriptors, the aggregates of ideas about self, the corrupted kaleshas and wounded tendencies, the evil inclinations which block out the light which is the essential core. Buddhists worship buddhas which oftentimes overlap with Hindu devatay, such as Kaal Bhairava and Tara. You should tell all this to the Dalai Lama as He is in fact Himself one of the founding leaders of Vishwa Hindu Parishad. Both Hindu and Tibetan Buddhist representations of Kaal Bhairav Tara is central Bodhisatva of Buddhist iconography as well as the second of the Das Mahavidyas of Devi. Sanatana Dharma is that eternal religion which comes from eternal Sruti Truths and not man-made corruptions. Hindu Mat includes and has reverence for Sruti Truths just like Gurbani does, although it is a plurality of religions and sectarian distinctions not all of which agree. Those aspects of Hindu Mat, like Smritis which are not Sruti texts are subordinate and always considered in error is there is contradiction with Sruti. Those aspects of external show of piety or rituals are part of age-old culture but not Sruti. We have to have the ability to distinguish the eternal Truths from Man-made interpretations. Of course the human element will err. But from simple logic, the CULTURAL and ETHNIC aspect of Sikhi belongs to Hindu heritage. The eternal Shabda Truths of Sikhi absolutely do not contradict Sruti but come from it. For example we can debate Shankara but we can't debate Dharma. Dharma is universal, but Shankara's teachings are not. Well I suppose it's better than some of your previous comments. You need to lay off those evil anti-Hindu onions though. Who am I blaming? That goes for everybody and Sikhs have been largely the victims. But if we nurture only grievances it will give birth ony to rage and violence. Why not look for relationship and build bridges? What's to gain by hostility to the noblest and highest spiritual philosophies and dragging down always to level of worst corruptions? Is that all you can see?

KHALSA Panth is those who follow Pure Truth with Pure Heart~! Not politically minded power-hungry manmukh corrupted people (as is basic nature of everyone in the world) who happen to keep kakkars. So Third Path OBVIOUSLY is the spiritual people.

Yes. Sikh sants sitting on mats practicing age-old yoga from Shaiva sutras. Amazing no? Third Panth. There are only 2 religions in the world and Sikh-ism has become the third? Or this has a different meaning. Panth means Path. Sikhi is the middle way, it walks between the extremes of false religiousity that are external ornaments people use to identify true spirituality but is far from it. Third path between Hindus and Thuraks can only mean the way of Bhakti. And it can't be AGAINST Sanatana Dharma as Vaishnav bhagat bani is included in Sikhi Mat along with calling Krishna and Ram as Gurmukhs and Baisano Vaishnavs are Gurmukhs. You are fluent in Gurmukhi. Instead of insulting my qualities why don't you explain how Bhagavan Krishna is a Gurmukh but Gurmat is is somehow totally different and separate and removed from Sanatana Dharma teachings about Krishna, for example? Can you explain Suraj Prakash steek claiming that Singhs worship Chandi Devi and Kalika? So obviously the Third Panth has no problem with Sanatana Dharma. How exactly is it separate? Would you care to spell it out for us? You cannot answer intelligently and hence resort to personal attacks and insults all the time. These aren't only my opinions veer ji. I did not invent those tuuks of Suraj Prakash. I did not have anything to do with sanatan Sikh sampradayas or their yogic and Vedantic associations. I did not invent Gul shastar or create the photos of sanatan symbolizism which overlaps Sikh traditions and symbols. But as to experience, that is sheer grace of God and as foolish as I am and undeserving, and no doubt misunderstanding on many levels. I would never use such personal things to degrade another person with. certainly not in the name of defending religion. If not for the very selfish reason that I would have to answer to God for it. Because are you degrading the experience that God gave or only my foolish understanding and interpretations of it? See, take care that you don't mock God. I am happy to acknowledge that spiritually I am like a foolish child with profound misunderstanding. But I have not shown disrespect of Guru Sahibaan or Guru God. And that was the purpose of the clarification of the original post. You can't contradict error with insults. You have to contradict error with intelligent explanation and evidence. Otherwise, you're just childishly ranting how much you hate the other view and showing nothing at all about it except frustration.

Khatris and Guru Sahibaan families were traditionally the leaders of sanatan Sikh society. They lost influence and power after the Tat Khalsa Singh Sabha Reform movement. Modern Sikh Rehat Maryada and Khalsa identity is closely related to Singh Sabhas which Khatris have traditionally resisted. This means something? Sometimes Guru's own families betrayed Sikhs. Does this make them a separate identity having no kinship whatsoever? Own Sikhs were joining the British to undermine the Sikh Kingdom. Those are the politics of divide and conquer used by shrewd enemies since beginning of time (read Bhagavad-Gita). How does this mean your conclusion that Sikhs are a separate 1. Nation, 2. Ethnicity, 3. Race, 4. Religion so completely dissociated that NOTHING about it relates to or originates from Hindu Mat? Please prove to me the elements of separation, and not "political power struggles" unrelated to spirituality, cultural heritage or actual philosophical Mat. Banda Singh was a Rajput Hindu his whole life who chukked amrit and became a shishya/disciple of Guru Gobind Singh. He was also the leader which meant he set down laws. The people who were living in Punjab were Hindus and Thuraks. Please explain how this example proves something about Sikhs not having any credible relationship to Hindus or not being accepted as ethnically originating from within own community please.

Everything in the above paragraph is talking about politics. What does it have to do with spiritual philosophy and kinship ties? Nothing. You can hate your own cousin and murder him for stealing and being a hateful jerk. But it won't change the blood relation. He may have acted like a dog. But it doesn't make him no longer your cousin. Even if Hindu society was absolutely the most despicable, reprehensible, and outrageously unjust... it would not remove from fact that Sikh spiritual philosophy and social relations originated from Hindustan and Hindustani culture and Hindu religious philosophies. 1984, burned Gurdwaras, idiot (actual) pakudhi sants, Rajputs who kissed Mughal backsides for jagirs and sold own daughters and turned against Guru Gobind Singh NOTWITHSTANDING... does not erase Hindu spiritual philosophy or interpretations from Sikh Mat. I already explained that Sikh means DISCIPLE SUBMITTERD TO GURU GOD and not some separate ethnic race and culture from the surrounding HIndustani one. Do you really think Sikh means turban and dhaari makes you now separate race, separate culture, waiting to have separate nation? The SIKHS who were buffer between the Hindus and Thuraks, and accepted discipleship from both are not an ethnicity. They are and always have been SPIRITUAL PEOPLE, not own separate countrymen. Identity of "Sikh" modernly doesn't even have the association of chela of Guru Sahib. It's just degenerated into own tribal Punjabiyaat, "us" against "them." Even as you use all these examples of Indian state terror, and it DID exist, you forget the context as coming from Hindustanis manipulated by only what they saw and heard from state sponsored media, just as Singhs today are radicalized by feeding only on extremist Khalistani parchaar. Indian state terror was initiated by a dictatorial mentality which made terrible decisions for the country. Do you think Sanjay Gandhi's forced sterilization programs were evidence of democracy? Yet be honest, he was married to a SIKH! The riots targeting Sikhs were sponsored by CONGRESS party over power politics. It was the EVIL manipulation of religious differences that set the whole nation on fire. Do we have to do the same?

You overlook one crucial factor. Hindustani culture is very caste conscious. Unions of Rajputs with Mughals led to rejection. Unions between Hindu's and Sikhs were seen as completely compatible and socially accepted. Mughal marriages were political arrangements filled with scorn and shame for the families. Hindu marriages were not considered breach of culture or social disruption. So the point is, Sikhs have always been accepted AS A PART OF Hindu society by Hindu's themselves. This is irrefutable. During the establishment of NATIONHOOD Sikhs aligned with Hindus as being historically a part of Hindu culture. Since then, for political reasons, Sikhs have been aligning against Hindus. But originally, and even during kingdom of Maharaja Ranjiot Singh, guess what? Sikh = Hindu. You really think attitude of militants in 1980's has anything to do with purataan roots of Sikhi? You are mistaken. 1980's is modern politics which cannot deny the Sanatan heritage. It tells us nothing of purataan Gursikhi or peaceful coexistence between Hindu and Sikh Mat before Singh Sabhias. Is it even a rational response? Osama Bin Laden has more in common with Sikhs than Shiva because he has a beard? Is this the degree of intelligence you people are debating with? Pictures are symbolic representations only. ALL Shaiva sampradayas and even Shakta ones have traditional uncut hair and beards among sadhus as Shiva is the Master of yoga, and yogis often show this by keeping natural appearance, even nakedness as showing disdain for social pretense of artificial attractiveness. However the tradition has been modified in modern times so you see cut and trimmed and shaved sadhus as well. However, it is still a distinctive feature that Shaiva and Shakta monks do keep beards. Shiva has also been shown with beards. To be shown without a beard is a representation of his eternal youth. All pictures of Lord Shiva show him with uncut hair just like Chandi. The point of showing those pictures was to show the traditional yoga being practiced on tiger skins being kept by sanatan Sikh sampradayas. It comes from Shaiva sampradaya, sorry if it offends your modern beliefs that Sikhi never had to do with Hindu traditions. Yes, Shiva is occasionally shown with dhaari intact. Nath Jogis Do you have any pictures of Bin Ladin meditating on a tiger skin? And more importantly, did he ever tie a jura over his dasam duaara like the jogis? Or practice NAAM Japna and Pranayam sas giras simran to vibrate the hairs and open the chakrs and raise the praan on the Gurmantra from the nabhi to form ras in the mouth, vissudhi/throat chakr and taste the amrita? I bet not, because Osama bin Laden has no relationship whatever to Gurmat the way Shaiva sutras do.