Morghe Sahar

shaheediyan wrote: "What about the growing fanatical/terrorist elements of the Irani and Iraqi community?" Please care to name them. Are you talking about the Mujahideen e Khalq who have assassinated elected ministers, presidents and countless civilians in Iran after 1979 and who are now residing under American protection? Or are you talking about the Balochi Jundullah in Balochistan financed by Saudi Arabia and trained by the CIA?

Dear Shaheediyan, 1.I have no problems with Jews, just Zionists. 2. The Pakistani Shi'a community is generally as bad as the others. They refuse to have khutbas in English, believe sayyid women cant marry non sayyid men (ridiculous), malangs refuse to pray and indulge in bloody zanjeer matam etc etc... 3. as for the Portuguese community though there is less criminality in it and it is more integrated in the UK, it has its own problems in other countries.

btw: I honestly don't care who did it...

"Check this video out. This guy is Zaid Hamid, he is very popular amongst the Pakistanis. He claims that the men who were the terrorists who attacked the hotels were Sikhs and Hindus pretending to be Muslims. LOL" Strange you don't mention that the same theory is upheld by members of your own community...biased? http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?showto...0&hl=mumbai "Dal Khalsa Press Early Release 'Don't Rule Out Hindutva Hand In Mumbai Terror' While speculation mounts on the involvement of Islamist Jidhadist groups in Mumbai's carnage ,Dal Khalsa UK would like to point out that the Fanatical Hand of Hindutva could be behind the terrorist attacks in Mumbai and its Hotels.The hand of Hindutva groups and radical Hindu outfits like the Bajrang Dal,RSS, alongside ShivSena could well be behind the latest string of attacks,mostly aimed at the general public and tourists. For the last 6 months the Indian Nation has been in World News Headlines regarding the on going genocide and ethnic cleansing of Christians in the North Eastern State of Orrisa,the Pope,EU and other World leaders have expressed their outrage to the Indian Govt about the brutal killings,rapes and destruction of Christian Chruches in Orissa by Fanatical Hindu Terror groups. The word 'Hindu Terrorism' has also popped up in the Media in the last few weeks and leading newspapers like The Times UK and others are activley monitorinig Hindutva outfits like the RSS and Bajrang Dal and their activities in Orissa against Christians all this and pressure from activist groups in the UK have led to the RSS and Hindutva Terrorism in Orrisa to be discussed in the UK House Of Lords.Lord Patten(Conservative),with a whole host of Bishops have called on the UK Govt. to protest the killings and genocide and have also discussed a ban on these groups. The Hindutva terrorism in Orrisa has given India a bad name in the international community,in order to take away the attention from Orissa Hindutva groups may well have engineered these attacks to take the attention away from 'Hindu Terrorism'which was reaching world headlines and back to Islamic Terrrorism.Its important to point out that in the last week at least 200 bodies have been recoverd dumped on a jungle in the state of Orrisa that just shows the magnitude of the killings in the North Eastern State. Not only this the attacks could also have been carried out to have an influence on the outcome of India's next elections,as the Congress led Govt. is weak and is heavily opposed by most major Hindutva groups .In order to get into power once more through the BJP and to grab the votes of Hindu Nationalists these attacks may well have been enginered at just the right time.The reason for this is that 2 Leading officials who were leading the Investigation into 'Hindu Terror Cells' in Mumbai have been killed,it is improtant at this time to recall the arrest of the Hindu Sadhvi Pragya Thakur she was arrested for the Malegoan blasts and had alledged involvement in making bombs and bomb factories.The ATF Chief leading the investigation Hemant Karkare was killed a few days ago in the Mumbai Terror attacks along with another ATF senior member,Hindu radicals have celebrated his death as a blessing from God and have expressed their gratitude that he is now dead.This is evident from comments left on Indian News Blogs: 'Pragya’s heartfelt cry and prayer to Hindu Goddess Durga, that might have resulted in the killing of not only Hemant Karkare but also other members of ATS and the Marthi Police manoos.' 'Death of Hemant Karkare 1 ATS head Hemant Karkare’s demise was welcomed by Hindus as he was trying to create artificial Hindu terrorists' ' ATS head Hemant Karkare’s death is due to his illegal and immoral way of detaining a Hindu Sadhvi Pragya.' http://www.expressbuzz.com/edition/story.a...ERROR%20ATTACKS This leads us to ask the question as to why the head of a Govt agency who deals not with criminals but with terrorists was killed?IWhere was his security?Body armour?ts easy to say he was shot dead and so on,but would we see Metropolitan Chief Sir Paul Stephenson, on the front line in an attack like this in the UK? There is the possibility the head of the ATF was killed of due to his exposure of Hindu Terrorism and the arrest of the Sadhvi,Hindutva groups were growing very hostile towards the ATF and their uncovering and use of the word Hindu Terrorism.The BJP/RSS has and continue to activley support the Sadhvi and all the suspects arressted in the Malegaon Blast cases,and they are highly critical of the ATF and its management. With the attacks being blamed on Islamic Jihadists and Pakistan this may well be used as a reason to crack down on Muslims living within India,and one cannot rule out the chance of another 'Gujarat 2002'(Genocide) through the Right Wing propaganda of the RSS Hindutva terrorists.In 2002 as well Islamic Fanatics were blamed for the train bombing of Hindus ,but earlier this year it came to light that these attacks were themselves enginered by the Bajrang Dal and RSS ,this attack was used as a reason to attack Muslims and cause communal tensions all this was exposed by the Tehelka Network in an undercover sting opertion using hidden cameras and interviews of Hindutva leaders. The Chinese Official Daily also says that Hindutva may have a hand in this horrific incident http://www.indianexpress.com/news/china-of...6;./391937/ Dal Khalsa UK and the Sikh Community as a whole would like to at this time send its condolences to the families of the victims of this sickening attack on unarmed civilians and tourists who were going about their daily lives only for them to be tragicly ended by the terror of cowards and inhumane terrorists We hope peace prevails and that the spirit of Humanity shines through these dark days. Nanak Naam Chardi Kalla Tere Bhaneh Sarbat Da Bhalla Follow up to questions on press release http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?showto...st&p=381481 To understand more please watch & read http://www.indianexpress.com/news/china-of...6;./391937/ http://www.kashmirwatch.com/showexclusives...news=value1news http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=5F4_qwtM5yY&...feature=related http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Eij5o7XizIA Watch all parts Another discussion 4/5 parts http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=exvlatXpCnI "

"Wow, you always have to bring it back on the Sikhs." Why not? Tony32hp says "Islam and conspiracy go hand and hand". Why on earth should I let such a stupid comment through? I have had Dalit and Sikh students and acquaintances who actually believed India's Brahmins met one day and decided to rule over all other groups using some conspiray. I call it the "Protocols of Benares"theory. LOL "Evil stingy veggie Brahmins conspiring against the brave Sikhs and (chose any other minority x y z) to break them." Read the "Sikhs in History" and you'll get an idea of what I mean. This most popular book among Khalistanis is pure conspiracy theory. Conspiracy theorists exist everywhere and it isn't a speciality of any community. And keep in mind that tony32hp didnt say "Muslims" but Islam which is even more ridiculous. There are plenty of Muslim conspiracy theorists as well as white Americans, English, French and Sikhs. Tony32hp is an encyclopedia of racist stereotypes. Mention the word Catholic and he'll reply: pedophiles: Say Jews and he'll reply : stingy. Say Gujju and he'll reply: stingier than Jews. But Sikhs are of course even more perfect than God himself. There is a word for that: idolatry. And to paraphrase your 10th master: man but shikan hastam, I am an idolbreaker I lived with different communities in my life and it has been a great experience. What I concluded from my stay in the UK is this: apart from a few exceptions Pakistanis and Indian communities deserve each other and are as bad as each other. I worked on honour crimes related to both communities and it makes me laugh how both communities brag about themselves. Do you really think it is God that is being worshipped in UK mosques, mandirs and gurdware? Everywhere I have just met the same tribalism, the same ignorance of one's own classical culture and that of the host. There are many exceptions to this, people who managed to keep a level of dignity that is admirable, coupled with a good mastery of one's own root culture and host culture. For the rest these communities live in their little ghettos accusing each other of the same crimes: wife beating, welfare scrounging and what not but they are exactly the same in their pigish ignorance and their unwillingness to evolve as human beings and as citizens. Tony32hp is no better than the other SOuth Asian biggots I met in the other South Asian communities, badmouthing other communities, in order big up his own tribe (i dare not say community) hoping that his white masters will look at him as a friend not realising that for the average British person he is just as bad as the people he badmouths. He and his kind will sit with guys like Pat Condell in the vain hope to gain sympathy because "I hate Muslims too you know", in the same way Pakistanis will sit with some BNP person saying "I hate Hindus and Sikhs too man". Ridiculous. Pure colonial slave mentality. I am glad I am out of this whole diaspora scene be it Indian or Pakistani or whatever. So, Mithar, I can understand your will to defend your fellow brother in faith-tribe-caste (chose as appropriate), but no....for me it doesn't go back to Sikhs. It goes back to people stopping to talk out of their chittar and portraying a community that is as horrible as their own as the eternal evil one.

Pakistan does not equal Islam. If it's true that certain Muslims have a tendency to indulge in conspiracy theories so do many Sikhs as well...

bakra express to sach khand i guess ...

The UK Muslim scene is way too different and there is too much Saudi money involved in the Sunni scene for it to react in a similar way...

Terrorism is the very negation of Islam. I am glad the Muslim Council refused to gives these kuffar any place to rest their corpses.

"Nice to know that Murga still considers the Portuguese as 'his people', it's difficult to know who his people are because I assumed it depends on what Bhes is flavour of the month with him. Let's not even get into the topic of the Portuguese contribution in history..slave trade..forcible conversion of natives..genocide in their colonies..etc." Doesn't change a iota to the fact that Cristiano Ronaldo doesn't wear a turban!

The Portuguese don't vandalise theaters for plays like beizzati, they don't use Catholic churches to bring in illegal immigrants, they don't live in ghettos in which English speakers are made to feel like foreigners, they actually learn English unlike many who think that learning English is a luxury they don't need, they don't have castes, their women don't throw themselves every two weeks under a train,they don't have gangs like shere panjab etc etc they work quietly, they don't leave in ghettos and don't try to make a show of their achievements. Your brother built Southall? Poor England ...clap clap clap....probably proof you guys should leave building to Ramgharie after all...in any case: not an achievement...clap clap clap Why don't you just stick to farming...

I agree with tonyhp32 but he did forget to add his own people to the list...

As for central Asia there have been some Udasi deras in countries like Azerbaijan and Russia. There was even an Udasi dera in St Petersburg in the 19th century. There is a small Sikh community in Iran based in Zahedan and Tehran. I haven't found any evidence of Sikhs in Tibet.

I think the PSGPC issued a complaient but the UHTYA didn't do anything. Mind you the KSPC was involved in some strange deals with the RSPC.

jattboot wrote: "What is 'Sorth Haal' like anyway???" You're better off living in a better area, trust me.

"Yes there is a huge Khoja and Ismaili community in London, no wonder London is so messed up LOL" Southall used to be a nice place...once before...not so long ago...

There are Indian Muslims and Hindus in the UK. How on earth can you clain they're all Sikhs. There is a huge Khoja and Ismaili community in London of Indian origin, are they Sikhs now? LOL

"In the UK anyone from India can be classified as Sikh. " I beg to differ...

Raagmala wrote: "I only read literature of Guru Nanak at whose door millions Muhammads salute" Imam Ali (as) said: "Get knowledge from everywhere even if you have to get to China for it" No restriction on knowledge and no fear of contamination.

In Iran it's referred to as khatneh and in Arabic khitan. Shaheediyan's observation is correct, I had forgotten to add it. Needless to remind you that khatneh is taboo for you Sikhs.

What do you mean by sunnat? I think you are confusing sunnah with circumcision. Sunnah refers to the traditions of the Prophet (pbuh) and the Immaculate Imams (as). It is compulsory in most fiqh schools and it involves males only. Circumcision is practiced by Muslim, Jewish and by Oriental Orthodox Churches and goes back to Prophet Abraham (as). It symbolises the alliance between God and the monotheistic prophetic traditions. It existed in Ancient Egypt as well and is widespread in the US too as a hygenic measure (I don't know if that is still true).

Kamalroop Singh wrote: "1. It's an illustration not an icon because it is not being used in worship. A manglacharan is not worship? See "religious ritual invocation", BLACKBURN 1991, p. 120 Therefore, as the three Deva's feature in the mangalcharan, which is a religious ritual of invocation. The author is praying to his Isht Devas. The three particular Isht Devas are found illustrated in my previous post, clearly as an Icon. The three Devas in question are found together, in the form of Idols, in Hindu temples. " Iconolatry implies the separate existence of the icon as an object used in worship accessible to the senses such as touching (kissing the icon), seeing (contemplating the icon) etc...Your example is an illustration of a text nothing more. It has no separate existence and is hence not an icon. The illustrations are not used in any ritualised form of worship. A mangalacharan is first of all a literary genre used as an opening for texts or section of texts. Its ritual recitation during liturgy can be seen as worship but it is vocal worship not iconolatry.But the Nirmala granths you are refering to are didactic works and are not used in any liturgical manner. The invocation does not turn simple illustrations into icons.

Kamalroop Singh wrote: "Ok then the Nirmala manglacharan in question is referring to a popular "Hindu" icon or murati of Ganesh, the Devi, and Saraswati." 1. It's an illustration not an icon because it is not being used in worship. 2. Icons and murtis (idols) are completely different things, in fact quite the opposite of each other: To state ""Hindu" icon or murati " is a contradiction in terms. Let us stick to more factual and rigorous terminology and say very factually that some Nirmala works contains illustration depicting divinities of the puranic pantheon. This would be more appropriate and correct.

Kamalroop Singh wrote: "What word would you use to describe the references to Hindu mythological characters in Nirmala literature, that are used to teach Gurmat? This is an icon, of the manglacharan by Pandit Gulab Singh Ji: http://www.indiavilas.com/wldofind/images/...axganesara4.jpg Yes there are words in the manglacharan, and in the texts, but what are they referring too? Let us take it further: Devi, is represented as the feminine Divine. The i, meaning female, Dev, meaning Divine. Therefore it creates an image.............therefore in my view it is an icon. It symbolises something......a form............. all the best" What is being referred to here is an illustration. Icons are two dimensional images used in worship as it is the case in Eastern Christianity, some Indian traditions like the Dadupanthis and popular Shi'a practise. Iconolatry is clearly differenciated from iconolatry in which three dimensional images like statues (murtian) are being used in worshiped. This difference is one of the elements that lead to the schism between Catholics and Orthodox. Language only works because we all use linguistic conventions. We all use the word "car" to designate a four weeled vehicle not a fruit. In the same way icon has a conventional meaning when used in religious studies. The basis of all discussion is the agreement by all participants on the use of terms and their meaning. If each one of us would add his own meaning to words the world would be chaos. wa alaik

Kamalroop Singh wrote: "I totally agree Hindu is a modern construct. However some people who believe in Mahalakhsami are definately "Hindu". As for the Shakta Tantra tradition definately, but is it fair to confine Maha Lakhsami to this tradition in modern terms? " The fact that people who believe in Mahalakshmi refer to themselves as Hindu is no incidence to the fact that it remains a Shakta Tantra theological concept. And in fact it has never left the Shakta Tantra tradition even today. "I have defined what I meant by iconic." Language works because people use conventions. When they invent new ones it is because there is an absence for the meaning they wish to convey.In your case it would have been most apropriate to use the term "literary figures" and refer to literary criticism.