Morghe Sahar

"The mangal's in Nirmala literature are different in style to those in Dasam Granth Sahib Ji, and Sarbloh Granth Sahib Ji. In my opinion they are iconic" The term iconic is completely out of place here. "I have examined the Mangals very carefully in Sri Sarbloh Granth Sahib Ji, Maya Lakhshami, in terms of exegesis of the scripture, is not Maya Lakhshami in the Hindu sense of the word. It is talking about an attribute of God. " 1. There is no "Hindu" sense of the word Mahalakshmi 2. It is a term found in the Shakta Tantra tradition that refers to God as feminine and as the origin of all Her manifestations as Durga, Kali, Lakshmi, Sarasvati etc. 3. The author of that mangalacharan is thus evoking the idea of an origin of all manifestation, the Divine.

I must warn against incorrect use of terminology here. In religious studies icons refer to two dimentional images only. If talking about texts and the evocation of divinities one would use the word characters or any other suitable literary term. The word icon here is totally out of place and it should be dropped at once.It simply has nothing to do with the discussion at hand. A word or name is not an icon.

Mithar wrote: "I've always thought that the reason the knights templar were killed off is because the order was more powerful and wealthier than any of the kings of Europe. The knights templar were not only powerful militarily but also were in the money lending business because of which they accumulated alot of wealth and land. Monarchs like the King of France owed alot of money to the knights templar, so instead of paying them, he decided to finish them off. Plus some say the Germanic warrior order of the Teutonic knights were also very jealous of the power and influence of the knights templar, so they also encouraged the extermination of the knights templar. I don’t think their religious beliefs had anything to do with their extermination. After all, they were commissioned by the Pope. It’s usually always about money or power no matter where you go in the world. " We have the full transcripts of the trials in which Jacques de Molay admitted to heretical practices without having gone though any torture. I am not saying that the Templars were Shi'a. But there is no doubt that they incorporated elements of Nizari Shi'ism in their organisation (they were organised exactly like the Assassins: see Wasserman's Militia of Heaven about Templars and Assassins). They were accused of having been influenced by Islamic practices this is what the acts of the trial say. Now of course this served the French king's interest no doubt. The order did survive officially in Portugal renamed as the order of Christ with their center in Tomar. Their tombstones had pentagramms on them instead of crosses which is highly unusual in Christendom, they had an extensive library filled with Jewish and Islamic estoric literature among other heterodox things-

Shaheediyan wrote: "Lol, that must have been the real reason why Rome had them exterminated! The mystery is finally solved - hope Dan Brown is taking note! But if we look into the real arth of the matter - Hazrat Isa must have been a Shia - so automatically his latter day 'Singhs' were the same by default.. Bunch of clowns." I guess rejecting the cross three times and honouring a picture of a severed head called Baphomet and putting pentagramms on tombstones and making alliances with Assassins and Ibn Qasi is Shaheediyan's idea of classic Catholicism... Maybe I misread the acts of the Templar's trial when I studied it back in my Ancient French classes in Paris... clown...

TSingh wrote: "'The Nirmala Sikhs used Hindu icons to teach about Sikhi.' Incorrect. Maybe the Udasin, but I've not found anything to suggest Nirmalay had murtian of devtas in their deras, in any of the maryadas written, in 19th century literature, in their mangalacharans, etc. Their line was always advaitvad/nirguna upasana. In fact I've rarely come across puranic material in nirmala compositions and commentaries. We should be careful not to propogate misinformation." At the expense of sounding pedantic and arrogant (maybe fascist depending on the mood), the word icon refers to two dimensional images like pictures not to statues. For statues it is the word idol that is used. This is the established use of these words since the times of the councils. The difference between idol and icon is a fundamental one. Some Nirmala works do contain pictures of deities like Mahakal etc.

Kam1825 wrote: "Bahadur, are you and Kamalroop still in touch since your reversion to the Shia faith. I just ask as both of you are back on this forum on the same day! Just a coincidence." I don't talk about private matters on forums. I have been on this forum for a long time as I still have an academic interest in Sikhism and I have been posting as morghe sahar before.

Mithar wrote: "Bahadur, I don't really think you have read any of Bhai Randhir Singh's books. " Well actually I have.

The fact that it comes from Baba Deep Singh does not mean that it is a separate sampradaya. It is part of the larger Nirmala tradition.

Why would anyone want to be taken seriously by these people anyways?

To use the term "sampradai taksal" does not mean that they are the fifth sampradaya. In fact upsampradayas among Nirmalas use the word sampradaya for themselves too. Damdami Taksal itself in its videos always talks about four sampradayas and so does Giani Gian Singh.

Whatever changes might have taken place sure is the founders of AKJ have refused to acknowledge all of Dasam Granth and even now have huge problems with Charitropakhyan. In fact the only reason AKJ still exists today is because Sant Gurbachan Singh Bhindranwale intervened so that they wouldn't be exterminated by the Nihangs.

Randhir Singh only quoted from works he deemed to be works of Guru Gobind Singh. The AKJ like most Neo Sikhs refuse to acknowledge all of Dasam Granth as the 10th Guru's work. The Charitropakhyan is among the works they refuse to acknowledge hence why they refuse to recite all of Chaupai Sahib because of its reference as being part of Charitropakhyan.

I have never met any AKJ who read Chaupai Sahib up to the reference to Charitropakhyan which is its real end.

If you can't then shut up.

Mithar wrote: "Wah! this coming from the king of slander himself LOL " Find one post where I attack any of you on his/her personal life. I you can't shut up!

I find the slander on his person and the attacks on his personal life and family to be of such a low level that I don't words in a dictionary to qualifiy them. But this is typical in a community that has no respect for intellectuals and prefers to attack the person rather than his/her arguments.

From a Persian perspective all jokes come either from Turks, Kurds or Lors.

Unbreakable wrote: "Indeed. You are right and I am wrong. So there" This isn't about you or me. It's about God's sacrosanct Lordship and the respect that is due to His Lordship at any time. You wrote: "I am God reborn as a human." The religious text you consider to as your master says: "Let that mouth burn that says that the Lord takes birth. He is not born nor does he die. He does not come come and go (i.e. is not reborn). " I dont't know you, I never met you and doubt we will ever meet. I have no reason to have any positive or negative feelings towards you as a person. All I have is your statements and acts and in this case your statements are considered by the religious text you refer to as authoritative as a terrible sin.

amardeep wrote: "lol.. if you dont find it funny then why do you bother to write in this topic?" LMAO

hahahaha loosen up hahahahaha ji hahahahaha

hahahahaha ha....ha....hahahaha haaaa ha ha........h.....a.....ah..

Yes it must be the Goodness Gracious Me receipe: take any Western joke add massala to it and it's called "British Asian comedy", a bit like masala baked beans...

Unbreakable wrote: "you are too clever. Laughing" Coming from an ex-God I take that as a compliment. Humour! Bing Bang Boum hahahaha

Even Mansur al Hallaj's master, Jonaid, signed his death warrant by saying: Even though Mansur was in mystical union with God and that it is that extatic state that had him utter "I am the Truth" (not "Iam God) he has to be condemned to death for his words could mislead millions. Unbreakable is lucky the United Kingdom doesn't apply its own blasphemy laws seriously anymore...

If you have a problem with me conserving an academic interest in Sikhism that's a problem you as the all knowing divinity you claimn to be will have to solve. I find it humorous that a person who claims to be God incarnated should call me arrogant. For your information it's not me who calls you a sinner. I am referring to his tuk from gurbani: "Let that mouth burn that says that the Lord takes birth. He is not born nor does he die. He does not come come and go (i.e. is not reborn). " The problem with claiming to be God is that there is unfortunately no coming back from that. Only a person imbued with outmost arrogance would ever type such words. To claim to be God is to reject the sacrosanct Lordship of God and is an insult to his attribute of Lord, King and Master. Whether as a joke or as a serious claim in both cases it reveals a total disrespect for Our Creator and a rejection of our poisition as creatures. You just don't mess with Divine Majesty and there is a price to pay for such actions I am afraid. The very fact that Unbreakable has done this on purpose, that he has risked the fate of his immortal soul by making such a statement is actually even worse.Asking apologies from mortals who can't punish you for your foolish statement won't get you anywhere and gurbani itself has settled you fate. Then again God's mercy may respond to the sincere request of a soul shaking in repentance. May God have mercy...