dalsingh101

Niddar doesn't mention the use of karay when he talks about this in the vid??? To be honest I find the whole idea that karay were officially weapons hard to swallow. Unless they were like mini chakars worn on the wrist (see image)? And yes, I know Nabha refers to them as 'weapons of the wrist'. That being said, maybe I'm wrong because now I think of it, chunky karay always have been used knuckle duster style to bang people out. I remember a few years ago, I was with a group celebrating someone's birthday, and we went to some club thing and the bouncer refused to let us in with karay because (he claimed) 'people start clumping each other in fights with them'. There does seem to be skant (if any) reference to the use of kray as shasters/asters though.

The people who would probably most love a war between China and India (and would economically benefit the most from such a scenario) would be the west, you would make an even bigger packet than they are now, selling weapons to India (the Yids would also profit). On top of that, the reduced output of Chinese manufacturing (we could expect in such a scenario) would also help currently struggling to compete western economies. I don't know why India and China are locked in such a negative dynamic. It needs to get sorted. Actually, China probably sees India as the west's beeatch. So that will be difficult.

Toon chup kar! Nee thaa Sarbhat da 'Islamaflood' ah ju ga!

Believe it. They live large over there apparently. I worked with one. He went on and on about it... So I heard this hadith from flannah, who heard it from timka, who himself had heard it from buntu through jeeto.....

They have an easy life over there.

Truth is though, an external researcher would query the provenance of the kara. People can make these things up very easily.

Sounds good! I doubt we'd get much writing or reading done in that state though.... hee hee Yes, and remember Baba Buddha too. Akali Phoola Singh was 60 + when he was shaheed. I think good food and active life gave many people long lives in those days. Guru Amar Das was nearly 100! If Guru ji, never met any of the people that fought with his grandfather, he certainly would have heard tales from people who spoke to fighters first hand. Possibly their children. I think Chibber's work gives further details about the fighters under dasmesh sahib?

Awesome pic! Does everyone know that kara is a Farsi word. Apparently it symbolises slavery in that culture and doesn't have to be made of metal or be fully circular (according to some Shia I met).

Any photo of the Guru Tegh Bahadur kara? What did it look like? The lack of explicit reference to karay in most extant older rehats is quite conspicuous though.

I'm sure he's a nice guy and well intentioned, but still, I can't take a lot of that research seriously. What did you have in mind? I'd agree. I wonder what the average life span was in those days? I have imagined them as potential advisors (not combatants), but that is probably my imagination running riot now. I'm sure hearing tales of the 6th Gurus battles would have been a feature of Guru Gobind's childhood.

It's possible some of them were alive. Some people think Kavi Kankan worked for Guru Hargobind when younger and later witnessed the birth of the Khalsa, for example. Would dasmesh pita have known any of the people who fought alongside his grandfather I wonder?

Had to bump this tune up. Feeling it.

I had a look. I have to say of all the stuff on that site, the piece on Sujan Rai is one of the more plausible (but still not solid). The brother/sister seems to have frequently expanded tenuous links in a most extreme and unrealistic way in many of his pieces. Regarding your original question, the impression I'm getting is: At least a part of Guru Hargobind's (surviving) force was passed on to Guru Har Rai on their material passing. This force would have shrunk grew as per Guru Har Rai's strategic plans. Presumably it shrank or was disbanded toward the latter stages of the 6 mohal's guruship. What would be really interesting would be to trace any links between the fighters in Guru Hargobind ji's conflicts and the group that we latter find around Dasmesh pita, especially in his younger days. If any veterans survived till that time and maintained strong links to Sikhi, that is where we would presumably find them? There is a Gurbilas on 6th padshah (the one Vedanti recently edited), I wonder if it tells us anything about his fighters in there?

Thanks for the pointer Khoji, I'll have a look at that tonight hopefully.

Where did you get this information from? It doesn't mention this in the forward to the English translation in Persian sources. Nor does he seem to mention it in the text itself?

Laal Singh, you ever come across this one? To be honest bhai ji, I'm not surprised. Languages always seem to go through such phases. It's a fallacy to consider languages as some static entities that don't alter over time. My fear however is that we are going to lose the understanding of some of the more archaic/colloquial words/phrases used in our literature pretty soon. I know I'm not the only one who thinks this may become an issue. I often find words in material I'm reading that isn't covered in any dictionary. I came across ਕੰਜ as barren (cow, buffalo or woman) but not as above. Without sounding too ਅਸ਼ਲੀਲ I wonder if the word is related to ਕੰਜਰੀ in it's etymology?? lol In any case ਕੰਜ ਕੁੜੀਆ (your definition) seem to be becoming less and and less common in our ਸਮਾਜ these days.... he he he Good going man! ਅਨੋਖਾ seems to be a synonym for ਅਜੀਬ. Or does the former imply 'unusual' and the latter the more derogatory 'weird'?

I found this reference to 6th mohal, which was made a fair few decades after the event: I notice there are a few near contemporary references to 'large crowds' around the 9th mohal, but nothing that explicitly suggests armed soldiers.

Tradition seems to suggest it was the outcome of hill rajay instigating the Moghuls against the Guru after much previous conflict in the area, which saw lot of duplicity on part of the local rajay. One moment they would fight alongside Guru ji and solicit his help - the next fight and conspire against him. I'm sure the radical new faith Guru ji was preaching in the area couldn't have gone down too well either. Throw in jealousy towards an emerging, radical powerful force in what they considered their neck of the woods, one with material wealth and subjects that could challenge their own 'blue blooded' lineage, and who had chastised them previously - and hey presto - you have the making of a 'wonderful drama'. The rajay may have sent petitions to Aurangzab through vakils? Aurenga in turn, may have contacted Guru ji to negotiate in the situation. This is where the accusations of oath breaking probably come in? Even if he was down south, there was still good communication channels across the land.

Okay, I'm glad you've come to some conclusion. Can you now stop flooding us with Islamic stuff please? Besides I'm sure there are as many differences as similarities between the two. Thanks in advance.

He would have failed if the ideas he's posted here are anything to go by.

We went through this before, if you are talking about the account all over the Internet, purported to be in a manuscript in Aligarh University, it doesn't seem to be genuine or even exist. But yes, I think they were trying to keep a lid on Sikhs in order to prevent them becoming a big headache. This backfired and Sikhs did become exactly that for them. Almost like a self fulfilling prophecy.

I think up until Banda's time, Sikhs were probably seen as minor irritants that needed to be kept in their place. Moghul suspicions originally seemed to be based on disquiet at the Guru's rising popularity (Jahangir) and theological objection (Aurengzab).

Don't even joke like that or sarbat da bhalla will come along and post das hazaar Islamic youtube videos on the thread!

ਅਸਤੀ ਪ੍ਰਕ੍ਰਿਤੀ ਪ੍ਰਿਅ Can someone share knowledge on what these things are and their significance?